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Taffy17 wrote: Shas'vre could probably do with BS4, for Shas'ui I think it might be too much.
IMO if your the pilot of a 20ft tall experimental Riptide battlesuit or the leader of a team of elite battlesuits you should be able to shoot slightly better the an average Fire Warrior and that's before you take into account computer targeting etc.
BlaxicanX wrote: Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.
It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"
Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.
In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.
Deadshot wrote: Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)
There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.
Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.
You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.
The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.
And you base this on... what?
Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.
But they lack the most important part, imagnination. They have no imagination, literally. That makes me infinitely better than them. That makes earth caste finitely better than them. With 60 years to live, they accomplish more than almost any magnos. that is why they are better.
Actions speak louder than words. The Mechanicum can't make anything new- the Tau do, and with frequency. The Earth Caste has fielded more than a few new weapon systems that have given the Imperium a heap of trouble- the Riptide and Tiger Shark Ax-1-0 come readily to mind. Meanwhile, the Adeptus Mechanicum hasn't so much as invented a new energy drink for Guardsmen, am I correct?
Hellfire ammo against the 'Nids, Mk. 8 Errant Power Armour and the miniaturized Power Fists to go with them.
Wow, something more than an energy drink.
It's time to go to work, so I can't keep going, but I'll handle this much.
You've named two items. The first, Mk VIII armor, was the creation of the Mechanicus. The prior version, the Mk VII, was created during the last stages of the Horus Heresy. It took TEN THOUSAND YEARS for the Mechanicum to improve- slightly- on an already-existing design. The Tau took six thousand years to go from throwing spears to rail guns on tanks.
For the second... do you have a source saying that the Mechanicus was actually responsible for Hellfire rounds? I can't find any. Granted, it's great that someone in the Imperium is capable of creating *any*thing new, but I imagine there's a reason on Space Marines use Hellfire rounds.
You're moving the goalposts.
As a reference for the Hellfire rounds, it's either the Mechanicus or some Techmarines, i.e. the Mechanicus. The Chapter Techmarines are responsible for production and resupply of the Chapter's weapons. You'll note that I didn't ask you for a reference to make sure that the Earth Caste actually built the AX-1-0, since I thought that was patently obviousl, but while we're at it, what's your source?
You'll also note that the AX-1-0 is a weapons swap, in which case every single Razorback, Land Raider, Whirlwind, Chimera, Leman Russ, Baneblade, Titan, and so forth has to count as well.
For further innovation, there's the Nemesis Class Fleet Carrier, which is even from M41.
I didn't move the goalpost. The goalpost is, and always will be, a feat of engineering- even one that is a rare example- that compares to what the Tau Earth Caste does on a regular basis. What I did was make fun of you for not being able to get out of your goal zone. Congrats, you made it five yards up the field. Only 95 more to go!
"The Whirlwind Hunter, more commonly known simply as the Hunter, is the first known dedicated anti-aircraft platform used by the Adeptus Astartes. Many years before the discovery of the Standard Template Construct (STC) designs for the Hunter variant, the Space Marine forces had attempted many times to retrofit their Whirlwinds to fire accurately at enemy aircraft, with largely negative results."
"The Whirlwind Stalker, more commonly known simply as the Stalker, is a variant of the Hunter anti-air tank. The Stalker is based on the Hunter Standard Template Construct (STC) data, and was rediscovered only several millinnia ago"
It seems like the common theme with a lot of these is that either 1) they were made with STCs or 2) they predate the Horus Heresy, and thus are likely from STCs. That the AM failed to build a mobile anti-aircraft platform isn't merely embarrassing by Tau standards- it is embarrassing by modern US Army standards. They had little trouble slapping some Stinger missiles on a Bradley chassis- and taking the missiles off of individual M6 es and replacing them with the traditional Bradley weapon systems.
I'll just leave this here. There's no need to invent a new vehicle when you have a working one.
Whoops...
"Because it was derived from STC technology discovered after the Horus Heresy, the Whirlwind is one of several designs unavailable to Chaos Space Marines"
Imperium didn't invent it. It was from an STC, meaning the DAoT. Care to try again?
I'll just leave this here. There's no need to invent a new vehicle when you have a working one.
The Hyperios was developed after the Hunter. In fact the Hyperios is the newest model of Whirlwind.
So it still took the Space Marines/Admech a ridiculously long time to do a basic weapon swap on a vehicle. That's not really helping your case.
It's worse than that. The Hyperios is from an STC, meaning the AdMech didn't build it- they just read the blue prints. No original thought or development whatsoever.
Learn how to make inferior versions of imperial plasma technology
Tau Plasma technology isn't inferior. They could make it as powerful as Imperium plasma weapons but decided that actually having the user survive firing it was the better option.
Also, how many of those imperial inventions were actually invented, as opposed to an old STC being discovered?
That makes it inferior. We can make it more powerful with a small chance of it overheating. And when overheating it has a small chance of inflicting death, while most of the time it merely singes or burns.
Also, how much Tau tech was invented and not just copied from what they saw the Imperium or leave behind use or we already built and designed thousands and thousands of years ago? Or the Eldar for that matter.
As for your question, much of it was invented. The Land Raider Crusader, Redeemer and definately the Ares were all designed for a purpose. The Razorback is new, the Predator Infernus is thought to be an attempt to recreate the Baal Predator. As mentioned, the Stalker, Hunter and Hyperios Whirlwinds were all attempts to make an AA tank. The Land Raider Hyperios was to make their Hyperios almost indestructible. Others I cannot answer but generally speaking weapons are created in a response to a threat
"However, the STC template for the Razorback was first rediscovered in M36 by Chief Artisan Tilvius while he was exploring the Southern Rim of the galaxy."
The Razorback wasn't an invention- it was a discovery of tech from the DAoT.
I'm pretty sure that I pointed out in this thread that for a long, LONG time the AdMec and SMs failed to create anything like the Stalker, Hunter, or Hyperios. Those were all STCs. STCs are needed because the AdMech isn't advanced enough to develop new tanks- meaning that the companies supplying the US Army are superior to the AM, as they could solder some Stinger missiles and a radar onto a Bradley chassis... though, in your defense, that might have been a different thread.
Nope! That was this thread.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 02:39:11
Taffy17 wrote: Shas'vre could probably do with BS4, for Shas'ui I think it might be too much.
IMO if your the pilot of a 20ft tall experimental Riptide battlesuit or the leader of a team of elite battlesuits you should be able to shoot slightly better the an average Fire Warrior and that's before you take into account computer targeting etc.
And there is your thread. Go home, everyone.
Why would the jet pack blasting, hovering crisis suit be a better targetting platform than the "super advanced" Tau fire warrior armour on foot (and generally crouched in the woods)? If the crisis suit had better targetting software, its not like they have to pay a copyright tax to the RIAA/MPAA to use it on the regular guys too. Similarly, it seems to me, that a monstrous 20' high robot suit might be slightly slower on the draw and harder to aim than your standard human sized rifle. A fencer's foil in hand and on foot is faster for stabbing than a 14' lance from horseback. Does that mean a medieval knight could stab a target easier from a galloping horse with a lance than the his less well equipped compatriot could on foot with a foil? Purely by virtue of being better trained and equipped? And why is that riptide a creature and not a melta-bombable vehicle exactly? Did they snare an Eva from NGE somewhere?
The exit is that way ---->
From a fluff perspective, your ballistic skill amount to your chance of hitting a target under battle stress conditions. Space Marines might actually be no more accurate a shot than guardsman when shooting paper targets at a fixed distance, but they have genetically enhanced reflexes and psychological conditioning that lets them perform there level headed best under crisis conditions. Blow my hand off and I'll probably miss the bullseye on my next shot. Maybe pass out or hide, clutching my stump in horror. A space marine? He'll autoclamp the muscles to stop the bleeding, kill the guy who shot him and regrow it later with an Apothecary or TechMarine to replace it. Orks may be great shots, but just revel in the dakka sound and wave it around, hence BS2.
Taffy17 wrote: Shas'vre could probably do with BS4, for Shas'ui I think it might be too much.
IMO if your the pilot of a 20ft tall experimental Riptide battlesuit or the leader of a team of elite battlesuits you should be able to shoot slightly better the an average Fire Warrior and that's before you take into account computer targeting etc.
And there is your thread. Go home, everyone.
Why would the jet pack blasting, hovering crisis suit be a better targetting platform than the "super advanced" Tau fire warrior armour on foot (and generally crouched in the woods)? If the crisis suit had better targetting software, its not like they have to pay a copyright tax to the RIAA/MPAA to use it on the regular guys too. Similarly, it seems to me, that a monstrous 20' high robot suit might be slightly slower on the draw and harder to aim than your standard human sized rifle. A fencer's foil in hand and on foot is faster for stabbing than a 14' lance from horseback. Does that mean a medieval knight could stab a target easier from a galloping horse with a lance than the his less well equipped compatriot could on foot with a foil? Purely by virtue of being better trained and equipped? And why is that riptide a creature and not a melta-bombable vehicle exactly? Did they snare an Eva from NGE somewhere?
The exit is that way ---->
From a fluff perspective, your ballistic skill amount to your chance of hitting a target under battle stress conditions. Space Marines might actually be no more accurate a shot than guardsman when shooting paper targets at a fixed distance, but they have genetically enhanced reflexes and psychological conditioning that lets them perform there level headed best under crisis conditions. Blow my hand off and I'll probably miss the bullseye on my next shot. Maybe pass out or hide, clutching my stump in horror. A space marine? He'll autoclamp the muscles to stop the bleeding, kill the guy who shot him and regrow it later with an Apothecary or TechMarine to replace it. Orks may be great shots, but just revel in the dakka sound and wave it around, hence BS2.
It's a game. If you want BS4, take another army.
It's not targeting software, but hardware. You can get a lot more of it on a suit. And a suit is not slow, they are quick, fluid, and nimble. They aren't even pioleted in the way we think, but worn and controlled as you would control your own body.
Oh, and if your view is "if you don't like it play another army" than you should probebly stay out of the PROPOSED RULES section.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 08:00:16
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
It's not targeting software, but hardware. You can get a lot more of it on a suit. And a suit is not slow, they are quick, fluid, and nimble. They aren't even pioleted in the way we think, but worn and controlled as you would control your own body.
Oh, and if your view is "if you don't like it play another army" than you should probebly stay out of the PROPOSED RULES section.
The proposed rule was Tau should be BS4 in exchange for giving up nothing (bc they are already at WS2). i.e. Tau+1 codex. There was also big tangent thread on whether Tau or the Mechanicum have better tech for some reason. Contrived fluff justification was then offered at the top of this page with a "thread over" snark. My "play another army" if you want base BS4 snark was for the guy who said thread over.
I offered real world examples and fluff based explanations for BS3. A 20' thing is not as nimble as a 5' thing and nimbleness and fine motor skills is where precision targeting comes from with guns, not 600 hp motors or other larger things. Feel free to disagree but try to cite (or just make up a plausible) a source. Tau have no psykers or magic, so you should try to come up with an engineering basis for it. Otherwise, I shall point at your poorly constructed argument and laugh at the lamentation of your constructs
Taffy17 wrote: Shas'vre could probably do with BS4, for Shas'ui I think it might be too much.
IMO if your the pilot of a 20ft tall experimental Riptide battlesuit or the leader of a team of elite battlesuits you should be able to shoot slightly better the an average Fire Warrior and that's before you take into account computer targeting etc.
And there is your thread. Go home, everyone.
Why would the jet pack blasting, hovering crisis suit be a better targetting platform than the "super advanced" Tau fire warrior armour on foot (and generally crouched in the woods)? If the crisis suit had better targetting software, its not like they have to pay a copyright tax to the RIAA/MPAA to use it on the regular guys too. Similarly, it seems to me, that a monstrous 20' high robot suit might be slightly slower on the draw and harder to aim than your standard human sized rifle. A fencer's foil in hand and on foot is faster for stabbing than a 14' lance from horseback. Does that mean a medieval knight could stab a target easier from a galloping horse with a lance than the his less well equipped compatriot could on foot with a foil? Purely by virtue of being better trained and equipped? And why is that riptide a creature and not a melta-bombable vehicle exactly? Did they snare an Eva from NGE somewhere?
The exit is that way ---->
From a fluff perspective, your ballistic skill amount to your chance of hitting a target under battle stress conditions. Space Marines might actually be no more accurate a shot than guardsman when shooting paper targets at a fixed distance, but they have genetically enhanced reflexes and psychological conditioning that lets them perform there level headed best under crisis conditions. Blow my hand off and I'll probably miss the bullseye on my next shot. Maybe pass out or hide, clutching my stump in horror. A space marine? He'll autoclamp the muscles to stop the bleeding, kill the guy who shot him and regrow it later with an Apothecary or TechMarine to replace it. Orks may be great shots, but just revel in the dakka sound and wave it around, hence BS2.
It's a game. If you want BS4, take another army.
Don't say "and the exit is that way" you've made a valid point but hardly blown my argument out of the water.
I'll admit that battlesuits may be slightly less agile than a Fire Warrior however I think you do underestimate the Tau battlesuit. They're not Sentinels or Imperial Knights.
To put things in perspective Tau battlesuits can be equipped with software and hardware that allows them to...
-"Pick out priority targets in the midst of battle"
-react to charging enemies accurately
-Lock on to deepstrikers before they appear
Can a Space Marine do any of those? and that's without even getting into the signature systems (I believe the SM call them relics) which the sergeants/shas'vre, who I think could have the BS4, have access to.
So after all these upgrades and the experience of battlesuit sergeants (which shas'vre are) I think they would be better than a Fire Warrior and at least as good as a veteran guardsman.
and also in my opinion the Tau battlesuit would be the fencer, the reckless charging knight isn't the Tau way of war.
"That's how a Luna Wolf fights."
"If you can't keep up, go and join the Death Guard"
"It had often been said that Space Marines knew no fear, but when Angron charged, he ran"
and also in my opinion the Tau battlesuit would be the fencer, the reckless charging knight isn't the Tau way of war.
The Tau battlesuit would be the musketeer. He wouldn't use finesse, technique, or skill, just raw firepower employed at the right place at the right time. The fencers are the Eldar aspect warriors/Dark Eldar raiders.
BS does not make an army shooty!
The amount of damage an army can deal is what makes an army shooty.
Look at orks. BS2 for everybody and i can still write a list that outshoots BS4 SM.
If I had written the codex Tau, they would all come with 2/2/3/3/1/2/1/7 (significant weak bodys) and salvo2/3 S5, 36'' pulse rifles (superior guns).
2 rounds at BS2 do the same as 1 round at BS4.
But BS2 and 2 rounds are far better if you want to show, that the entire race really depends on their technology.
Otherwise you could simply reduce the point cost of each unit -> more firepower per point = shooty army.
Tau are shooty enough. BS4 would make them even more OP. And WS2 would not hurt them at all. A Tau in close combat is screwd. With WS3 as well as with WS2.
Please correct my english. I won't get any better if you don't.
Shas'vre are often such a pointless upgrade, most armies do not have any, possibly excepting riptides. Even if you did want to take them, to get ten of them you need eight FOC slots.
For all I care, they can be bs5. I think that is even better. People who think that rules profiles are some kind of measure of relative merit can be mollified, and you still have all the non-suit units and 70% of the suit units at bs3 so the game works properly.
Tau are absolutely bs3, all the time. Ofc the models that don't matter can be bs5. I mean, I am sort of scared of that one marker light you bought an entire stealth team to get, but I'm supposed to be at least a little bit scared by something.
Learn how to make inferior versions of imperial plasma technology
Tau Plasma technology isn't inferior. They could make it as powerful as Imperium plasma weapons but decided that actually having the user survive firing it was the better option.
Also, how many of those imperial inventions were actually invented, as opposed to an old STC being discovered?
That makes it inferior. We can make it more powerful with a small chance of it overheating. And when overheating it has a small chance of inflicting death, while most of the time it merely singes or burns.
Also, how much Tau tech was invented and not just copied from what they saw the Imperium or leave behind use or we already built and designed thousands and thousands of years ago? Or the Eldar for that matter.
As for your question, much of it was invented. The Land Raider Crusader, Redeemer and definately the Ares were all designed for a purpose. The Razorback is new, the Predator Infernus is thought to be an attempt to recreate the Baal Predator. As mentioned, the Stalker, Hunter and Hyperios Whirlwinds were all attempts to make an AA tank. The Land Raider Hyperios was to make their Hyperios almost indestructible. Others I cannot answer but generally speaking weapons are created in a response to a threat
That doesn't make it inferior is the slightest. The tau have decided to forgo some of the stopping power for a degree of safety. It's a rational decision, it could be the same power, but it is not so it doesn't explode in your hands. How is that inferior? It's s decision we would make today, but that wouldn't make it less powerful.
And no, none of the tech the tau have was based on anyone else other than the repulser impact field.
In which case bolters and (especially) lasguns aren't inferior to Pulse Rifles, since they're easier to make and supply. Goes both ways.
Titans are also composite intelligences, not artificial intelligences. The machine spirit of a Titan is the accumulated psychic imprint of every crewmember who has ever linked with it, held within the MIU.
Anyway, here's something the AdMech have invented: Repressors. Immolators. Both superior to their Astartes-issue STC equivalents - the Immolator's forward-mounted turret allows for a top hatch (in previous editions, this was a Fire Point like on the Rhino), while the Repressor has significantly improved armour and fire points.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Learn how to make inferior versions of imperial plasma technology
Tau Plasma technology isn't inferior. They could make it as powerful as Imperium plasma weapons but decided that actually having the user survive firing it was the better option.
Also, how many of those imperial inventions were actually invented, as opposed to an old STC being discovered?
That makes it inferior. We can make it more powerful with a small chance of it overheating. And when overheating it has a small chance of inflicting death, while most of the time it merely singes or burns.
Also, how much Tau tech was invented and not just copied from what they saw the Imperium or leave behind use or we already built and designed thousands and thousands of years ago? Or the Eldar for that matter.
As for your question, much of it was invented. The Land Raider Crusader, Redeemer and definately the Ares were all designed for a purpose. The Razorback is new, the Predator Infernus is thought to be an attempt to recreate the Baal Predator. As mentioned, the Stalker, Hunter and Hyperios Whirlwinds were all attempts to make an AA tank. The Land Raider Hyperios was to make their Hyperios almost indestructible. Others I cannot answer but generally speaking weapons are created in a response to a threat
That doesn't make it inferior is the slightest. The tau have decided to forgo some of the stopping power for a degree of safety. It's a rational decision, it could be the same power, but it is not so it doesn't explode in your hands. How is that inferior? It's s decision we would make today, but that wouldn't make it less powerful.
And no, none of the tech the tau have was based on anyone else other than the repulser impact field.
In which case bolters and (especially) lasguns aren't inferior to Pulse Rifles, since they're easier to make and supply. Goes both ways.
Since when have bolters been cheap? And where does it way that they are more readily available than pulse rifles. Pulse tech is as common as dirt in the tau empire.
What makes tau plasma tech not inferior is that it was originally the same, but they made some tweaks to make it SLIGHTLY less powerful to add a degree of saftey. How do you people not get that?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have to say though, were getting a tad off topic.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 17:43:37
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kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
Furyou Miko wrote: Titans are also composite intelligences, not artificial intelligences. The machine spirit of a Titan is the accumulated psychic imprint of every crewmember who has ever linked with it, held within the MIU.
Anyway, here's something the AdMech have invented: Repressors. Immolators. Both superior to their Astartes-issue STC equivalents - the Immolator's forward-mounted turret allows for a top hatch (in previous editions, this was a Fire Point like on the Rhino), while the Repressor has significantly improved armour and fire points.
"The Standard Template Construct (STC) design for the construction of the Immolator were discovered in the 35th Millennium by the Frateris Templars , the original armed forces of the Ecclesiarchy."
I can't find much about the Repressor, but the Immolator most definately was NOT invented. It's a design from the DAoT.
Seriously- could you guys at least google the think before you post it? 9 times out of 10, the wiki will say when the STC for it was found, meaning the AdMech did not invent it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 18:20:29
I'll admit that battlesuits may be slightly less agile than a Fire Warrior however I think you do underestimate the Tau battlesuit. They're not Sentinels or Imperial Knights.
To put things in perspective Tau battlesuits can be equipped with software and hardware that allows them to...
-"Pick out priority targets in the midst of battle"
-react to charging enemies accurately
-Lock on to deepstrikers before they appear
Can a Space Marine do any of those? and that's without even getting into the signature systems (I believe the SM call them relics) which the sergeants/shas'vre, who I think could have the BS4, have access to.
So after all these upgrades and the experience of battlesuit sergeants (which shas'vre are) I think they would be better than a Fire Warrior and at least as good as a veteran guardsman.
The 20' comment was re the Riptide should be Ace BS++ cheer leading comments, not regular crisis suits.
Pick out targets = use a marker light.
React to charging enemies? They're still snap shotting unless you are referring to marker lights.
Lock on to deep strikers before they appear? Not in the game they can't. Intercept occurs at the END of the movement phase. You can't shoot a Dpod out of the sky before the guys get out.
I view it as Tau are so clumsy and blinded by the Ozone depleted Imperials worlds that they need all that gear to be as skilled in shooting as a guardman with iron sights. If you want to fluff cheer lead them, say they worry about their comrades and failing the greater good, or the UV light blinds them - hence the filters, which dim other cues, any of which mars their aim.
Getting back to the rules, sergeants, in general, don't get better stats because, barring special weapons, it slows the game down and complicates bookkeeping.
If you want a +1 to something, you need to raise the point cost or give up something equally crippling to the ARMY. I don't want to face BS10 EWO guys in exchange for them being WS1, I1, T1 and immobile. You can stick them in an AV14 vehicle and none of those "Weaknesses" will matter. My ork boyz will give up their 6+ armour and BS2 for WS5 and a power weapon all day long. Power Axes too since we'll attack last anyway. My fire dragons and wraithguard will take BS6 and WS2 as a fair trade any day too. Banshees can cost 400 points a model if my walkers are 5 points base - that's not a fair balancing. Heck, you can make them cost 400 points a model now, and everyone will take exactly the same number: 0.
Learn how to make inferior versions of imperial plasma technology
Tau Plasma technology isn't inferior. They could make it as powerful as Imperium plasma weapons but decided that actually having the user survive firing it was the better option.
Also, how many of those imperial inventions were actually invented, as opposed to an old STC being discovered?
That makes it inferior. We can make it more powerful with a small chance of it overheating. And when overheating it has a small chance of inflicting death, while most of the time it merely singes or burns.
Also, how much Tau tech was invented and not just copied from what they saw the Imperium or leave behind use or we already built and designed thousands and thousands of years ago? Or the Eldar for that matter.
As for your question, much of it was invented. The Land Raider Crusader, Redeemer and definately the Ares were all designed for a purpose. The Razorback is new, the Predator Infernus is thought to be an attempt to recreate the Baal Predator. As mentioned, the Stalker, Hunter and Hyperios Whirlwinds were all attempts to make an AA tank. The Land Raider Hyperios was to make their Hyperios almost indestructible. Others I cannot answer but generally speaking weapons are created in a response to a threat
That doesn't make it inferior is the slightest. The tau have decided to forgo some of the stopping power for a degree of safety. It's a rational decision, it could be the same power, but it is not so it doesn't explode in your hands. How is that inferior? It's s decision we would make today, but that wouldn't make it less powerful.
And no, none of the tech the tau have was based on anyone else other than the repulser impact field.
In which case bolters and (especially) lasguns aren't inferior to Pulse Rifles, since they're easier to make and supply. Goes both ways.
Construction
The Bolter is complex to produce and requires dedicated maintenance, which prevents it from being issued more widely throughout the Imperial Guard. The standard pattern Bolter is also simply far too heavy to be wielded effectively by the average human being or Imperial Guard soldier. The Bolter is far more susceptible to being fouled by dirt and mishandling than the basic Lasgun issued to Imperial Guardsmen, requiring much more training to use than the Guard is ready to invest in the standard line Guardsman. The Bolter's need for physical ammunition as opposed to power packs demands far more logistical organisation to supply than the standard Lasgun, and Astartes Chapters have been known to go through a mountainous stockpile of rounds during a single campaign. However, the Space Marines wear massive suits of Power Armour that further enhance their already prodigious genetically-enhanced strength and allows them to control the powerful recoil of the weapon, and the armour also enhances the already prodigious skill of the individual warrior with autosense uplinks and suit-integrated targeting systems. This makes the Bolter a good fit as the primary weapon for the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, who have used it since the Space Marine Legions were first raised at the dawn of the Great Crusade in the late 30th Millennium.
Pulse rifles are given to all Fire Warriors. All of them. There is not a cheaper version of the pulse rifle or some other gun they give to conscripts or the like. EVERY Fire Warrior is issued a gun that is in every way completely superior to the standard armament of humanity's warrior elite.
A pulse rifle is much, MUCH easier to produce than a bolter. The Tau have the most advanced battle rifle in the galaxy, bar none.
Considering almost every weapon on a suit is twin-linked, which shows their technological superiority in targeting equipment; a raise of BS isnt really needed
It would make an already strong shooting army even stronger, for no drawback.
tau are op it they really annoy me making them a even higher ballistic skill would make them even more unkillable take down their weapon skill to one and down to strength 2 if you must make them bs4 and cut down the number of shots their guns have but increase their range and make units faster enhancing on the hit and run aspect and make the amour on their vehicles down but make them faster so hammer heads can jink but are amour 12 f 11s 10 rear that's what I think would turn the tau from a stay back and shoot army easy to play no tactics involved to a fast moving running the gauntlet army encircling dividing and much more fun to play as I know as I played tau for 18 months and had to quit as the fast moving wasn't fast enough I needed to deep strike and this left my units venerable and wrecked it wasn't fun
WrentheFaceless wrote: Considering almost every weapon on a suit is twin-linked, which shows their technological superiority in targeting equipment; a raise of BS isnt really needed
It would make an already strong shooting army even stronger, for no drawback.
Most Crisis suit loadouts used by players aren't twin linked actually, they just have two of the same weapon.
There was a restriction in previous codices that a suit couldn't have two of the same weapon as separate weapon systems but that was removed in the 6th edition codex. So a suit with 2 plasma rifles typically has two separate plasma rifles, rather than one twin linked one. Two separate weapons gives the same average number of hits but with a higher maximum damage potential.
One thing that should be twin linked is the Hammerhead Railgun though. 1 shot at BS4 is not that great.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Pulse Rifles are clearly not better than boltguns.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 6th edition, Chaos Space Marines entry, first paragraph wrote:The Adeptus Astartes were created as the Emperor's
ultimate fighting force. Implanted with the gene-seed of
the Primarchs, the Space Marines stand seven feet tall,
with thickened bones, two hearts, hyper-dense muscles and
all manner of special organs that allow them to survive
and fight in the most hostile conditions. They feel little
pain and heal wounds at a remarkable rate. Their wiII is
hardened by constant training and fighting, and they battle
with dedication and zeal, brooking no hesitation, mercy
or cowardice. All of these things combine with the best
weaponry and armour in the galaxy to make the Space
Marines the most fearsome warriors of the Imperium.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 19:24:49
BrotherOfBone wrote: I'd definitely say IG vets and Stormies are superior to Scouts, Scouts are rookies, they've just been brainwashed and they're getting used to all their new implants. Veterans, however, have been field stripping lasguns since age ten, and probably firing them since about that age as well, as have Stormtroopers, who are literally bred into combat.
Let's ignore all of the really cool and awesome Space Marine Chapters. I can counter that with Smurfs.
Not only are Ultramarine aspirants likely to be training from a similarly early age (if not earlier), they're often trained by a family that has successfully trained many aspirants over the generations, passing down techniques even outside of standard Imperial methods.
But, as I said they're still getting to grips with their new bodies, they're clearly not as good shots as they used to be due to the fact they'd just undergone mental treatment and had new organs put into them.
e.earnshaw wrote: tau are op it they really annoy me making them a even higher ballistic skill would make them even more unkillable take down their weapon skill to one and down to strength 2 if you must make them bs4 and cut down the number of shots their guns have but increase their range and make units faster enhancing on the hit and run aspect and make the amour on their vehicles down but make them faster so hammer heads can jink but are amour 12 f 11s 10 rear that's what I think would turn the tau from a stay back and shoot army easy to play no tactics involved to a fast moving running the gauntlet army encircling dividing and much more fun to play as I know as I played tau for 18 months and had to quit as the fast moving wasn't fast enough I needed to deep strike and this left my units venerable and wrecked it wasn't fun
Reducing the armour of Tau vehicles basically turns them into less powerful and survivable Eldar vehicles. Hammerheads can jink now so I don't see how reducing them to 12/11/10 is fair, unless you drastically increase their firepower to offset their much lower survivability.
Fluff-wise Tau vehicles are meant to slot in between Eldar and Imperium vehicles when it comes to Armour to speed ratio. Which they currently do.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
One thing that should be twin linked is the Hammerhead Railgun though. 1 shot at BS4 is not that great.
My Chapter Master Orbital Stirke, Vindicator Demolisher cannon and Fire Prism/Brightlances all agree. How much should we all pay for the option to twinlink our weapons too? I'll assume every battle cannon Lehman Russ etc feel the same. Longstrike is priced at "a bit" more than 5 points, and not all of it for supporting fire (on a tank!)
That's the thing though, if everyone gets a buff to shooting (e.g. overwatch), it really only hurts assault guys and doesn't help vs the shooty. I set up a poll and people think a wave serpent shield is worth more than 40 points on average. People wanting to nerf the WS over it think the shield should be lost and only reduce the tank by 5 points though, or nothing at all.
I think the Wave serpent shouldn't be AV10 on the rear, I figure the Eldar had enough time to learn to reinforce the cockpit door as it were, but I don't push to have that as a proposed rule because I understand that that is what makes it a balanced item, albeit a very good one. Buff it there and then bolters are ignored and even krak grenades lose a lot of effectiveness. The Hammerhead S10 AP1 is as good as it gets for killing tanks, plus submunitions! What would a predator give for that option
BS4 is about a 33% increase in shooting effectiveness. Are you willing to increase the point cost by about 33%? 12 points base for a fire warrior, 15 with EMP and knives? Add in an ethereal or two and the 72 man Fire Warrior mob will be very effective and nearly unassaultable (especially with a Longstrike unlimited supporting fire tank). It already ruins the green tide, what are foot slogging orks to do against them at BS4?
Ashiraya wrote: Pulse Rifles are clearly not better than boltguns.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 6th edition, Chaos Space Marines entry, first paragraph wrote:The Adeptus Astartes were created as the Emperor's ultimate fighting force. Implanted with the gene-seed of the Primarchs, the Space Marines stand seven feet tall, with thickened bones, two hearts, hyper-dense muscles and all manner of special organs that allow them to survive and fight in the most hostile conditions. They feel little pain and heal wounds at a remarkable rate. Their wiII is hardened by constant training and fighting, and they battle with dedication and zeal, brooking no hesitation, mercy or cowardice. All of these things combine with the best weaponry and armour in the galaxy to make the Space Marines the most fearsome warriors of the Imperium.
It's funny how that's not actually true. Their armour is pretty good I'll give you that, but it has been proved multiple times that pulse rifle are superior.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 20:08:59
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Taffy17 wrote: and also in my opinion the Tau battlesuit would be the fencer, the reckless charging knight isn't the Tau way of war.
The Tau battlesuit would be the musketeer. He wouldn't use finesse, technique, or skill, just raw firepower employed at the right place at the right time. The fencers are the Eldar aspect warriors/Dark Eldar raiders.
It sounds like you think the Tau are merely a blunt force. I'd suggest reading some Tau fluff and I'd hope you'd see otherwise.
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: Pick out targets = use a marker light.
React to charging enemies? They're still snap shotting unless you are referring to marker lights.
Lock on to deep strikers before they appear? Not in the game they can't. Intercept occurs at the END of the movement phase. You can't shoot a Dpod out of the sky before the guys get out.
I view it as Tau are so clumsy and blinded by the Ozone depleted Imperials worlds that they need all that gear to be as skilled in shooting as a guardman with iron sights. If you want to fluff cheer lead them, say they worry about their comrades and failing the greater good, or the UV light blinds them - hence the filters, which dim other cues, any of which mars their aim.
Getting back to the rules, sergeants, in general, don't get better stats because, barring special weapons, it slows the game down and complicates bookkeeping.
In case you didn't realise I was practically quoting the fluff from the upgrades you can give crisis suits in that post. The ones I was referring to were the advanced targeting system, which gives them precision shot, the counterfire defence system, which lets them overwatch at BS2 and the early warning override which lets them intercept.
I'm merely backing up my argument that there's little reason an elite tau battlesuit pilot couldn't shoot as good as a veteran guardsman or a space marine using fluff, if thats "fluff cheering" then i'm guilty of it.
From a game play perspective I don't think they need BS4 either as they're already very effective and it would make the use of marker lights less important which I believe is a key mechanic of the Tau.
Admittedly when I started referring to fluff and drifting away from how it would actually effect the game I may have gone off the main topic of the post and apologise for that. I merely wanted to make the point that in the fluff they would be as good as a vet or marine
"That's how a Luna Wolf fights."
"If you can't keep up, go and join the Death Guard"
"It had often been said that Space Marines knew no fear, but when Angron charged, he ran"
Ashiraya wrote: Pulse Rifles are clearly not better than boltguns.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines 6th edition, Chaos Space Marines entry, first paragraph wrote:The Adeptus Astartes were created as the Emperor's
ultimate fighting force. Implanted with the gene-seed of
the Primarchs, the Space Marines stand seven feet tall,
with thickened bones, two hearts, hyper-dense muscles and
all manner of special organs that allow them to survive
and fight in the most hostile conditions. They feel little
pain and heal wounds at a remarkable rate. Their wiII is
hardened by constant training and fighting, and they battle
with dedication and zeal, brooking no hesitation, mercy
or cowardice. All of these things combine with the best
weaponry and armour in the galaxy to make the Space
Marines the most fearsome warriors of the Imperium.
It's funny how that's not actually true.
Their armour is pretty good I'll give you that, but it has been proved multiple times that pulse rifle are superior.
Not to mention that the ceramic armour which the Tau use in their battlesuits is described in fluff as being equal to Space Marine armour in effectiveness whilst being lighter. So the Space Marines have neither the best armour or the best gun in the galaxy.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A pulse rifle is much, MUCH easier to produce than a bolter. The Tau have the most advanced battle rifle in the galaxy, bar none.
Hellguns, Gauss Flayers, Tesla Carbines, Shuriken Catapults, Shardrifles. They're not in the top four most advanced.
Also, quote on Pulse Rifles being easier to produce than bolters please? We have a quote that tells us that bolters aren't issued as standard issue for the Imperial Guard, but that's my point: Lasguns are good enough and easy enough to produce in the vast amounts required to arm the guard (certainly orders of magnitude above the numbers needed by the Tau). It's good enough for the job, and it's mass-produceable and rugged enough to work as a standard weapon for the entire Imperial Guard.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
We know this:
A: Bolters are very expensive
B: Pulse rifles are cheap enough to be mass-produced by the tau so they can equip their entire army without difficulty
I assume that's where he/she gets the idea.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
I'm merely backing up my argument that there's little reason an elite tau battlesuit pilot couldn't shoot as good as a veteran guardsman or a space marine using fluff, if thats "fluff cheering" then i'm guilty of it.
From a game play perspective I don't think they need BS4 either as they're already very effective and it would make the use of marker lights less important which I believe is a key mechanic of the Tau.
Admittedly when I started referring to fluff and drifting away from how it would actually effect the game I may have gone off the main topic of the post and apologise for that. I merely wanted to make the point that in the fluff they would be as good as a vet or marine
No worries, people easily offended don't belong on an internet forum. If you go by the fluff.... One generic space marine defeats and entire Dark Elf planetary raiding party in one story, 100 space marines easily crush what 1,000 guardsman can't get through the front gate on, etc. Fluff is... Completely inconsistent. Let's be honest. Space marines have lifespans of hundreds or thousands of years and thousands of battles. The old PS2 game Fire Warrior had one non-crisis suit guy kill what, 1,000 guard? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I'm ok with anyone buffing anything, I just want to know how many points they think the buff should cost and why.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 00:08:18
One thing that should be twin linked is the Hammerhead Railgun though. 1 shot at BS4 is not that great.
That's the thing though, if everyone gets a buff to shooting (e.g. overwatch), it really only hurts assault guys and doesn't help vs the shooty. I set up a poll and people think a wave serpent shield is worth more than 40 points on average. People wanting to nerf the WS over it think the shield should be lost and only reduce the tank by 5 points though, or nothing at all.
I think the Wave serpent shouldn't be AV10 on the rear, I figure the Eldar had enough time to learn to reinforce the cockpit door as it were, but I don't push to have that as a proposed rule because I understand that that is what makes it a balanced item, albeit a very good one. Buff it there and then bolters are ignored and even krak grenades lose a lot of effectiveness. The Hammerhead S10 AP1 is as good as it gets for killing tanks, plus submunitions! What would a predator give for that option
That's why I proposed nerfing Guardsmen and Guardians instead of buffing Tau. The problem isn't the rawBS- it's how unfluffy that BS is compared to other units. No one is saying that Tau should as as good at shooting as Space Marines... but they should be better than Guardsmen and on the same level as Vets/Stormtroopers/Guardians.
As for the Serpent... even for the Eldar, you have to choose. Something can be fast or well-armored, but armor is weight, and weight slows things down. if you want to slap more armor on a WS, fine- but get rid of Fast.
14000 points 
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