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 EmpNortonII wrote:


That's why I proposed nerfing Guardsmen and Guardians instead of buffing Tau. The problem isn't the raw BS- it's how unfluffy that BS is compared to other units. No one is saying that Tau should as as good at shooting as Space Marines... but they should be better than Guardsmen and on the same level as Vets/Stormtroopers/Guardians.

And we're pointing out that they Shouldn't be better than guardsmen. BS3 would probably make sence for veterans but not stormtroopers. And bs3 makes perfect sence for firewarriors and suits.

Tau are designed, mathematically, to lose in a straight fight point per point against other units. They require synergy with other units aka markerlights for this not to be the case.

Raising BS to 4 will screw with this and require lowering something else, probably weapon S, to compensate.

EDIT: I just did the math, and for a Fire Warrior and a bolter Space Marine (the "standard unit") to have even chances point per point of killing each other if they are within 24" of each other, the Fire Warrior needs BS5. If you increase the BS of the Fire Warrior, you change the figures being plugged into the equation and will have to change something else to compensate -- either reduce the S of pulse rifles to 4, reduce the power of markerlights (or eliminate them altogether), or reduce Fire Warrior's armour save, or whatnot.

Fun fact! Most units in 40K seem to be mathematically balanced around equivalent Space Marine units. For instance, mathematically (assuming no Morale test loss), Necron Warriors are pretty much exactly as resistent to being put down as are Tactical Space Marines (toss in a Res Orb, and they become more resistant). Triarch Praetorians are pretty much exactly as resistant as Terminators, and Lychguard exactly as resistant as Storm Shield Terminators (again, toss in a Res Orb and they become more so).

I think you mean Necron Immortals. Warriors are only 4+ now and are still T4/W1.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I think you mean Necron Immortals. Warriors are only 4+ now and are still T4/W1.

I think he counts in RP in their resilience.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

No worries, people easily offended don't belong on an internet forum. If you go by the fluff.... One generic space marine defeats and entire Dark Elf planetary raiding party in one story, 100 space marines easily crush what 1,000 guardsman can't get through the front gate on, etc. Fluff is... Completely inconsistent. Let's be honest. Space marines have lifespans of hundreds or thousands of years and thousands of battles. The old PS2 game Fire Warrior had one non-crisis suit guy kill what, 1,000 guard? It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Actually, that one is cannon (the novel supports similar performances)
Caused by the direct involvement of khorne though, and some tzentch scheming thrown in there, he is FAR from your everyday fire warrior. more like your tau version of a beserker fighting against enemies that tzentch rigged to lose. (who as result has lost his sanity and got admitted to an asylum later on. dircet manipulation by chaos gods is bad for your health.)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I think you mean Necron Immortals. Warriors are only 4+ now and are still T4/W1.

Resurrection Protocols compensates mathematically in most cases for the difference in armour saves. (as T5 and RP do for Triarch Praetorians' lack of a 5+ invuln and worse armour save).

NW shooting at SM: 2/3 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1/9


SM shooting at NW: 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1/9

The same!

but with Res Orb:

2/3 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/12


or an SM bolter against a terminator: 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/18

and an SM bolter against a Triarch Praetorian: 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 x 2/3 = 4/81

They're almost identical (the TP is tougher by a very thin hair). Toss in a Res Orb and it becomes 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/2 = 2/27, that is, the TP is now about 33% tougher.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
If you want a +1 to something, you need to raise the point cost or give up something equally crippling to the ARMY. I don't want to face BS10 EWO guys in exchange for them being WS1, I1, T1 and immobile. You can stick them in an AV14 vehicle and none of those "Weaknesses" will matter. My ork boyz will give up their 6+ armour and BS2 for WS5 and a power weapon all day long. Power Axes too since we'll attack last anyway. My fire dragons and wraithguard will take BS6 and WS2 as a fair trade any day too. Banshees can cost 400 points a model if my walkers are 5 points base - that's not a fair balancing. Heck, you can make them cost 400 points a model now, and everyone will take exactly the same number: 0.

Hahaha, someone seems to be forgetting that it does in fact cost points to upgrade to a shas'vre, making his little rant completely redundant with regard to the actual title of the thread (which is about Tau seeing as many people are clearly forgetting that and going off on tangents about STCs, like seriously wtf)

BS4 for at least battlesuit shas'vres is completely reasonable, and anyone who wants to argue against that should take a look at the BS5 battlesuit commanders. Normal Tau BS3 however is exactly as it should be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, before you counter my argument by saying you were talking about raising the point cost of basic fire warriors, take a look at Taffy's post which you quoted in your reply. You'll see that he was exclusively talking about battlesuits and how much more advanced they are than people generally give them credit for.

Or we could just raise the BS of suits to 4 and raise their points cost.

This runs counter to the whole design philosophy of the Tau faction, which is based on units that are mediocre on their own but synergize together.

Bad idea. Might as well... I dunno, allow a unit to give itself suporting fire.

13045273 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
If you want a +1 to something, you need to raise the point cost or give up something equally crippling to the ARMY. I don't want to face BS10 EWO guys in exchange for them being WS1, I1, T1 and immobile. You can stick them in an AV14 vehicle and none of those "Weaknesses" will matter. My ork boyz will give up their 6+ armour and BS2 for WS5 and a power weapon all day long. Power Axes too since we'll attack last anyway. My fire dragons and wraithguard will take BS6 and WS2 as a fair trade any day too. Banshees can cost 400 points a model if my walkers are 5 points base - that's not a fair balancing. Heck, you can make them cost 400 points a model now, and everyone will take exactly the same number: 0.

Hahaha, someone seems to be forgetting that it does in fact cost points to upgrade to a shas'vre, making his little rant completely redundant with regard to the actual title of the thread (which is about Tau seeing as many people are clearly forgetting that and going off on tangents about STCs, like seriously wtf)

BS4 for at least battlesuit shas'vres is completely reasonable, and anyone who wants to argue against that should take a look at the BS5 battlesuit commanders. Normal Tau BS3 however is exactly as it should be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, before you counter my argument by saying you were talking about raising the point cost of basic fire warriors, take a look at Taffy's post which you quoted in your reply. You'll see that he was exclusively talking about battlesuits and how much more advanced they are than people generally give them credit for.

Those ten points are for +1 leadership and an extra attack. Space Marine sergeants cost point to upgrade too, but they don't get a ballistic skill boost for the ten points either.
If you want to pay another 20 points to buff the Tau sergeant's ballistic skill, that's fine by me. If you want to pay 0 or 2 points, not so cool.

What is your additional proposed point increase for raising a Tau sergeant's ballistic skill, beyond the base 10 sergeant upgrade? I'll assume everyone else's codex gets the same buff for half the points since they generally don't get to shoot 2 weapons. If their sergeants don't have special/heavy weapon option, someone else in the squad would get the choice too, for fairness, ala a Devastator lascannon unit.

Make your guys BS 10 if you want, just have a point value associated with it.

Alcibiades wrote:
This runs counter to the whole design philosophy of the Tau faction, which is based on units that are mediocre on their own but synergize together.

Bad idea. Might as well... I dunno, allow a unit to give itself suporting fire.

A: things don't have to be weak to synergize
B: That is only one way of playing.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

One thing that should be twin linked is the Hammerhead Railgun though. 1 shot at BS4 is not that great.

That's the thing though, if everyone gets a buff to shooting (e.g. overwatch), it really only hurts assault guys and doesn't help vs the shooty. I set up a poll and people think a wave serpent shield is worth more than 40 points on average. People wanting to nerf the WS over it think the shield should be lost and only reduce the tank by 5 points though, or nothing at all.

I think the Wave serpent shouldn't be AV10 on the rear, I figure the Eldar had enough time to learn to reinforce the cockpit door as it were, but I don't push to have that as a proposed rule because I understand that that is what makes it a balanced item, albeit a very good one. Buff it there and then bolters are ignored and even krak grenades lose a lot of effectiveness. The Hammerhead S10 AP1 is as good as it gets for killing tanks, plus submunitions! What would a predator give for that option

That's why I proposed nerfing Guardsmen and Guardians instead of buffing Tau. The problem isn't the raw BS- it's how unfluffy that BS is compared to other units. No one is saying that Tau should as as good at shooting as Space Marines... but they should be better than Guardsmen and on the same level as Vets/Stormtroopers/Guardians.

As for the Serpent... even for the Eldar, you have to choose. Something can be fast or well-armored, but armor is weight, and weight slows things down. if you want to slap more armor on a WS, fine- but get rid of Fast.

Well, thats true. the guardsmen/guardians AKA Cooks, and waitresses, need nerfing.

Why do Guardsmen need nerfing?

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

13045273 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
If you want a +1 to something, you need to raise the point cost or give up something equally crippling to the ARMY. I don't want to face BS10 EWO guys in exchange for them being WS1, I1, T1 and immobile. You can stick them in an AV14 vehicle and none of those "Weaknesses" will matter. My ork boyz will give up their 6+ armour and BS2 for WS5 and a power weapon all day long. Power Axes too since we'll attack last anyway. My fire dragons and wraithguard will take BS6 and WS2 as a fair trade any day too. Banshees can cost 400 points a model if my walkers are 5 points base - that's not a fair balancing. Heck, you can make them cost 400 points a model now, and everyone will take exactly the same number: 0.

Hahaha, someone seems to be forgetting that it does in fact cost points to upgrade to a shas'vre, making his little rant completely redundant with regard to the actual title of the thread (which is about Tau seeing as many people are clearly forgetting that and going off on tangents about STCs, like seriously wtf)

BS4 for at least battlesuit shas'vres is completely reasonable, and anyone who wants to argue against that should take a look at the BS5 battlesuit commanders. Normal Tau BS3 however is exactly as it should be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, before you counter my argument by saying you were talking about raising the point cost of basic fire warriors, take a look at Taffy's post which you quoted in your reply. You'll see that he was exclusively talking about battlesuits and how much more advanced they are than people generally give them credit for.

Those ten points are for +1 leadership and an extra attack. Space Marine sergeants cost point to upgrade too, but they don't get a ballistic skill boost for the ten points either.
If you want to pay another 20 points to buff the Tau sergeant's ballistic skill, that's fine by me. If you want to pay 0 or 2 points, not so cool.

What is your additional proposed point increase for raising a Tau sergeant's ballistic skill, beyond the base 10 sergeant upgrade? I'll assume everyone else's codex gets the same buff for half the points since they generally don't get to shoot 2 weapons. If their sergeants don't have special/heavy weapon option, someone else in the squad would get the choice too, for fairness, ala a Devastator lascannon unit.

Make your guys BS 10 if you want, just have a point value associated with it.

So what if SM pay the same for the same pointless edge, have you ever taken SM Sargent have you had the choice not to? scout sargets though get +1WS and BS, far better. and they dont cost 10 points, and eldar exarches generally get +1 BS,WS,I and A for the same 10 points.

Tau "sarges", as they are, are useless. when nobody even CONSIDER taking them, it says something about their value.
+1 Ld and A on a unit that avoid CC anyway and got no real need for Ld buffs (small squad sizes and general squishniess means its as likely to be wiped out than take a check) are just non-bonuses. you almost never even care about them.

Don't base your comparisons to other undesirables that anyone who can avoid, does avoid. compare it to the actual thought-worthy upgrades like the exarches, who are sometimes taken, sometimes not and there is no clear answer if they are a good upgrade or not.

Actually, Scout Sergeants do cost points. Look at the cost for five extra scouts, compared to the cost for buying the squad.

Also, the reason nobody bothers with SM Sergeants is because ATSKNF renders leadership useless.

Nope, 55 for 4 scouts and a Sargent, and 11 points for each additional scout. scout Sargent are free. (so dont combat squad them, get more teams)

Also, ATSKNF does not render leadership useless, just lesser importance. and thinking again, actually the sargents got changed to "regular" (same as marine with slightly different equipment) and the "veteran" (10 point upgrade for 1 LD and A) and nobody ever takes the veteran sarges.
Because its a useless upgrade you never ever want. same as the veteran version of the SM one.
Had they cost 5 points, they MIGHT have been useful (same for tau leaders), but at 10-why bother?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Nope, 55 for 4 scouts and a Sargent, and 11 points for each additional scout. scout Sargent are free. (so dont combat squad them, get more teams)

Check again. The scout sergeant included in base price is the same as other scouts. The Vet sergeant gets +1Ldr +1A, (no +1 to BS), and he's +10 points same as others. If you don't want the upgrade don't take it. If you want to make it better, pay points, otherwise you are saying a derivative of "I want Tau+1". Eldar are the same, no free guns, BS, etc.

I don't know what codex YOU are using, but SM scout sarges have 1 BS and WS over a regular scout.
Regular scouts are WS and BS 3, the sarge is 4.

Ah, so it is! I never spotted that even though I just looked at it. I was about to critique you for saying Telion (at B5 = Marine+1 normally) as a generic sergeant
I think that's more of a copy paste typo on GW's part than anything else honestly - none of the other sergeants in the codex get a BS/WS buff after all.

The sergeant can't buy a heavy or special weapon though - unlike a twin plasma rifle tau suit, so it's not a 1:1 comparison anyway. You get a 2 shot plasma rifle for the same price he pays a plasma pistol after all.

Wait, a plasma pistol costs 30 points?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Wait, a plasma pistol costs 30 points?

Think he was just commenting that a Plasma Rifle gets 2 shots under 12" where a plasma pistol only gets 1.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Ah, so it is! I never spotted that even though I just looked at it. I was about to critique you for saying Telion (at B5 = Marine+1 normally) as a generic sergeant
I think that's more of a copy paste typo on GW's part than anything else honestly - none of the other sergeants in the codex get a BS/WS buff after all.

The sergeant can't buy a heavy or special weapon though - unlike a twin plasma rifle tau suit, so it's not a 1:1 comparison anyway. You get a 2 shot plasma rifle for the same price he pays a plasma pistol after all.

Scout sarges were always better than basic scouts.

And while the 'vre CAN get better equipment than a scout sarge, so can the simple 'ui suit. nothing changed.
It still leaves us in the position that there is no reason to pay for the upgrade.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:Ah, so it is! I never spotted that even though I just looked at it. I was about to critique you for saying Telion (at B5 = Marine+1 normally) as a generic sergeant
I think that's more of a copy paste typo on GW's part than anything else honestly - none of the other sergeants in the codex get a BS/WS buff after all.

The sergeant can't buy a heavy or special weapon though - unlike a twin plasma rifle tau suit, so it's not a 1:1 comparison anyway. You get a 2 shot plasma rifle for the same price he pays a plasma pistol after all.

It's not an error.

The Sergeant of a Scout Squad is a full Tactical Marine who's gone back to scout armour to teach the newbies. That's why he has BS/WS 4.

Tau Fire Warriors: Remain at BS3

Tau Crisis Suits: BS4

That makes the most sense and agree with Peregrine, it is stupid that the veteran warriors of the Tau Empire in a technologically advanced suit have BS3 instead of BS4 in regards to fluff reasons. However when it comes to gameplay I can understand why they did it as the Tau's access to Markerlights and already strong weapons in the shooting phase.

 gmaleron wrote:
Tau Fire Warriors: Remain at BS3

Tau Crisis Suits: BS4

That makes the most sense and agree with Peregrine, it is stupid that the veteran warriors of the Tau Empire in a technologically advanced suit have BS3 instead of BS4 in regards to fluff reasons. However when it comes to gameplay I can understand why they did it as the Tau's access to Markerlights and already strong weapons in the shooting phase.

But the 'Veterans' of almost all the other races, including Ork Nobz, Space Marine Sternguard Veterans, Chosen, Paladins, Wolf Guard, Trueborn etc. don't get +1 BS?

Also remember that a Tau Battlesuit pilot/"veteran" has only done between 8 and 12 years or so. The standard troops of other races would serve longer than that by default (except the Imperial Guard).

 Deadshot wrote:
Also remember that a Tau Battlesuit pilot/"veteran" has only done between 8 and 12 years or so. The standard troops of other races would serve longer than that by default (except the Imperial Guard).

In fact, even your average Space Marine Scout serves for longer than that.

You also have to compare the sensor and aiming tech that the tau are packing. Also, with commanders at BS5, it's good to have an in-between. This would, of course, come with a downside (i.e. price increase).

No need for price hike is its just the 'vre ranks (except riptide, these guys are also 'vre), after all its a never-taken "upgrade" as far as tau goes.

If any, I'd say that the "veteran sargent" option of the varius codcies need ALL to be buffed one way or another, currently only the eldar exarch and non-vetran scout sarge are team leaders worth a damn.

 gmaleron wrote:
Tau Fire Warriors: Remain at BS3

Tau Crisis Suits: BS4

That makes the most sense and agree with Peregrine, it is stupid that the veteran warriors of the Tau Empire in a technologically advanced suit have BS3 instead of BS4 in regards to fluff reasons. However when it comes to gameplay I can understand why they did it as the Tau's access to Markerlights and already strong weapons in the shooting phase.

Ahhh... The clash of fluff against game rules is always present. another way to say to Games Workshop to make some fluff that co-ops with game rules.