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I just go for crisis, stealth, and broadside battlesuits all get BS 4 (with a small price increase to compensate). This would turn them into more of the elite soldiers they are supposed to be.

I think there is some confusion over how advanced the ADmek is and how advanced the Imperium is. The ADmek has a much higher level of tech then the imperium, ridiculously so infact, they just don't share. In this way, the highest levels of Imperial Tech would dwarf Tau tech but the kind of Tech people actually gets access to is just the simple stuff.

I also don't understand were you are getting this ''Guardsmen are not well trained'' thing. Have you even read any *Guard* novels? Ciaphias Cain, Guant's Ghosts, Eisenhorn/Ravenor series all point to Guardsmen being outstanding soldiers with high expectations and no tolerance for slackers. A trained Guard should be every bit as accurate as a trained Tau.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The problem, I think, isn't that Tau are BS3- it's that rank and file Guardsmen are BS3. Fire Warriors are all professional soldiers- by all rights, they should be on the same level as Storm Troopers and Veterans. Tau should have the same BS as Stormtroopers and Veterans.

That being said, I also don't think that mortal humans (excepting the top.001% of humanity) should be on the same level as a Space Marine. By rules, a good human soldier is on the same level as the veteran of hundreds of battles that has lived over a century.

Points (and in a few cases, number of shots) should be adjusted for the new BS, but as I see it, to reflect fluff, Orks and conscripts should be BS1. They both barely know how to point the thing, let alone hit something without shooting a LOT. A snap-shot is made when you have no idea how to fit something or you don't have time to aim, and human conscripts wouldn't have any practice... and Orks wouldn't really care. Ya just need more dakka if ya ain't shooin' it.

Guardsmen should be BS2. They've had a few weeks of training and maybe a few battles, but they're not professional soldiers.

Professional soldiers (including Fire Warriors) should be BS3. We'll throw Guardians on this list as well, given their thousands of years and training. They know how to shoot a gun well and keep doing so under fire. They live, breath, and die war.

Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and other super-humans should be BS4 (as well as things with high levels of technological assistance for targeting, like Eldar and Tau tanks and suits).

Basically, every statement there is wrong. I guess you haven't read either IG nor Ork fluff. Orks actually managed to outshoot tau in the war of Dakka. They do know how and where to shoot. And guardsmen are well trained military. For some reason you think that IG fully consists of conscripts that hold the gunz by the barrels and aim backwards.

Fire warriors are clearly not superior to human soldiers in the marksman's art. They have better gunz and advanced targeting systems which is well represented by pulse rifles being 36' s5 and markers.

Storm troopers are more than professional soldiers. They've got special training and appropriate limited wargear. They're more like special forces like "Delta" or advanced SWAT. And they're one head above an average soldier due to every-day training.

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The problem, I think, isn't that Tau are BS3- it's that rank and file Guardsmen are BS3. Fire Warriors are all professional soldiers- by all rights, they should be on the same level as Storm Troopers and Veterans. Tau should have the same BS as Stormtroopers and Veterans.

That being said, I also don't think that mortal humans (excepting the top.001% of humanity) should be on the same level as a Space Marine. By rules, a good human soldier is on the same level as the veteran of hundreds of battles that has lived over a century.

Points (and in a few cases, number of shots) should be adjusted for the new BS, but as I see it, to reflect fluff, Orks and conscripts should be BS1. They both barely know how to point the thing, let alone hit something without shooting a LOT. A snap-shot is made when you have no idea how to fit something or you don't have time to aim, and human conscripts wouldn't have any practice... and Orks wouldn't really care. Ya just need more dakka if ya ain't shooin' it.

Guardsmen should be BS2. They've had a few weeks of training and maybe a few battles, but they're not professional soldiers.

Professional soldiers (including Fire Warriors) should be BS3. We'll throw Guardians on this list as well, given their thousands of years and training. They know how to shoot a gun well and keep doing so under fire. They live, breath, and die war.

Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and other super-humans should be BS4 (as well as things with high levels of technological assistance for targeting, like Eldar and Tau tanks and suits).

Basically, every statement there is wrong. I guess you haven't read either IG nor Ork fluff. Orks actually managed to outshoot tau in the war of Dakka. They do know how and where to shoot. And guardsmen are well trained military. For some reason you think that IG fully consists of conscripts that hold the gunz by the barrels and aim backwards.

Fire warriors are clearly not superior to human soldiers in the marksman's art. They have better gunz and advanced targeting systems which is well represented by pulse rifles being 36' s5 and markers.

Storm troopers are more than professional soldiers. They've got special training and appropriate limited wargear. They're more like special forces like "Delta" or advanced SWAT. And they're one head above an average soldier due to every-day training.

Tau have about the same skill as humans as fr as I can tell. They can see into the ultraviolet and infared spetums, but I'm not sure how useful that would be. I've always thought that STs and vets would be more along the lines of BS 3.5 or so, but we don't have small enough incraments.
I still think that battlesuits should be BS4 considering that they have been active for 8 years and taken two trial by fires before they even set foot in a suit. They are experienced veterans, as well as having some amazingly advanced targeting.

Battlesuit team leaders most definitely deserve BS4.
8 years combat training and passing two trials by fire, coupled with targeting technology of the highest caliber being lower than IG vets (who are basically very good soldiers, but still just humans without any kind of tech assistance) is plain wrong

In fact, team leaders across MOST armies (pretty much everyone but eldar) are such marginal and pointless upgrades, yet at a steep price increase that it makes no sense at all.

Naturally, if you chance 'vre into BS4 some inner balance in the codex must be fixed. but we are not about the balance in this topic, but about proper representation of armies on the field.

Actually it could be 12 years depending on what fluff you believe. I believe some technically older fluff that goes:
1. 4 years as shas'la
2. Trial be fire as a team
3. team is split
4. 4 years as shas'ui leading other teams
5. Trial by fire, surviving team brought back together.
6. 4 years as battlesuit shas'ui
7. trial by fire for the team leader
8. 4 years with shas'vre leading
9. Trial by fire
10. Shas'el with shas'vre bodygaurds
11. Repeted success on the battlefield
12. Shas'o with Shas'vre bodygaurds
13. Death or Retirement!*



*Can this be a new rule please?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually it could be 12 years depending on what fluff you believe. I believe some technically older fluff that goes:
1. 4 years as shas'la
2. Trial be fire as a team
3. team is split
4. 4 years as shas'ui leading other teams
5. Trial by fire, surviving team brought back together.
6. 4 years as battlesuit shas'ui
7. trial by fire for the team leader
8. 4 years with shas'vre leading
9. Trial by fire
10. Shas'el with shas'vre bodygaurds
11. Repeted success on the battlefield
12. Shas'o with Shas'vre bodygaurds
13. Death or Retirement!*



*Can this be a new rule please?

And you'll find Imperial Guard veterans who have served for just as long, and Stormtroopers who have trained for just as long, nevermind served.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually it could be 12 years depending on what fluff you believe. I believe some technically older fluff that goes:
1. 4 years as shas'la
2. Trial be fire as a team
3. team is split
4. 4 years as shas'ui leading other teams
5. Trial by fire, surviving team brought back together.
6. 4 years as battlesuit shas'ui
7. trial by fire for the team leader
8. 4 years with shas'vre leading
9. Trial by fire
10. Shas'el with shas'vre bodygaurds
11. Repeted success on the battlefield
12. Shas'o with Shas'vre bodygaurds
13. Death or Retirement!*



*Can this be a new rule please?

And you'll find Imperial Guard veterans who have served for just as long, and Stormtroopers who have trained for just as long, nevermind served.

So... That's why they are BS4. And that's why battlesuit pilots should be BS 4.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually it could be 12 years depending on what fluff you believe. I believe some technically older fluff that goes:
1. 4 years as shas'la
2. Trial be fire as a team
3. team is split
4. 4 years as shas'ui leading other teams
5. Trial by fire, surviving team brought back together.
6. 4 years as battlesuit shas'ui
7. trial by fire for the team leader
8. 4 years with shas'vre leading
9. Trial by fire
10. Shas'el with shas'vre bodygaurds
11. Repeted success on the battlefield
12. Shas'o with Shas'vre bodygaurds
13. Death or Retirement!*



*Can this be a new rule please?

And you'll find Imperial Guard veterans who have served for just as long, and Stormtroopers who have trained for just as long, nevermind served.

Since I did raise the point, and no one has acknowledged it, do you think a storm-trooper or vanguard vet is superior to a SM scout fluff-wise?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The problem, I think, isn't that Tau are BS3- it's that rank and file Guardsmen are BS3. Fire Warriors are all professional soldiers- by all rights, they should be on the same level as Storm Troopers and Veterans. Tau should have the same BS as Stormtroopers and Veterans.

That being said, I also don't think that mortal humans (excepting the top.001% of humanity) should be on the same level as a Space Marine. By rules, a good human soldier is on the same level as the veteran of hundreds of battles that has lived over a century.

Points (and in a few cases, number of shots) should be adjusted for the new BS, but as I see it, to reflect fluff, Orks and conscripts should be BS1. They both barely know how to point the thing, let alone hit something without shooting a LOT. A snap-shot is made when you have no idea how to fit something or you don't have time to aim, and human conscripts wouldn't have any practice... and Orks wouldn't really care. Ya just need more dakka if ya ain't shooin' it.

Guardsmen should be BS2. They've had a few weeks of training and maybe a few battles, but they're not professional soldiers.

Professional soldiers (including Fire Warriors) should be BS3. We'll throw Guardians on this list as well, given their thousands of years and training. They know how to shoot a gun well and keep doing so under fire. They live, breath, and die war.

Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and other super-humans should be BS4 (as well as things with high levels of technological assistance for targeting, like Eldar and Tau tanks and suits).

Basically, every statement there is wrong. I guess you haven't read either IG nor Ork fluff. Orks actually managed to outshoot tau in the war of Dakka. They do know how and where to shoot. And guardsmen are well trained military. For some reason you think that IG fully consists of conscripts that hold the gunz by the barrels and aim backwards.

Fire warriors are clearly not superior to human soldiers in the marksman's art. They have better gunz and advanced targeting systems which is well represented by pulse rifles being 36' s5 and markers.

Storm troopers are more than professional soldiers. They've got special training and appropriate limited wargear. They're more like special forces like "Delta" or advanced SWAT. And they're one head above an average soldier due to every-day training.

Tau have about the same skill as humans as fr as I can tell. They can see into the ultraviolet and infared spetums, but I'm not sure how useful that would be. I've always thought that STs and vets would be more along the lines of BS 3.5 or so, but we don't have small enough incraments.
I still think that battlesuits should be BS4 considering that they have been active for 8 years and taken two trial by fires before they even set foot in a suit. They are experienced veterans, as well as having some amazingly advanced targeting.

In real life? Being able to see in the UV and IR spectrums would allow a soldier to fight in near total darkness and detect enemies that were perfectly camoflaged in the visible spectrum. IR tech is how American tank platoons effortlessly took apart Iraq's Republican Guard in the '91 war at night.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually it could be 12 years depending on what fluff you believe. I believe some technically older fluff that goes:
1. 4 years as shas'la
2. Trial be fire as a team
3. team is split
4. 4 years as shas'ui leading other teams
5. Trial by fire, surviving team brought back together.
6. 4 years as battlesuit shas'ui
7. trial by fire for the team leader
8. 4 years with shas'vre leading
9. Trial by fire
10. Shas'el with shas'vre bodygaurds
11. Repeted success on the battlefield
12. Shas'o with Shas'vre bodygaurds
13. Death or Retirement!*



*Can this be a new rule please?

And you'll find Imperial Guard veterans who have served for just as long, and Stormtroopers who have trained for just as long, nevermind served.

Since I did raise the point, and no one has acknowledged it, do you think a storm-trooper or vanguard vet is superior to a SM scout fluff-wise?

I've always tought that vets and such would be closer to BS 3.5 rather than 4.

Edit: AFAIK, they just have a greater range of the EM spectum. It won't make them completely immune to darkness, bu that's what blacksun filters and other tech is for.

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The problem, I think, isn't that Tau are BS3- it's that rank and file Guardsmen are BS3. Fire Warriors are all professional soldiers- by all rights, they should be on the same level as Storm Troopers and Veterans. Tau should have the same BS as Stormtroopers and Veterans.

That being said, I also don't think that mortal humans (excepting the top.001% of humanity) should be on the same level as a Space Marine. By rules, a good human soldier is on the same level as the veteran of hundreds of battles that has lived over a century.

Points (and in a few cases, number of shots) should be adjusted for the new BS, but as I see it, to reflect fluff, Orks and conscripts should be BS1. They both barely know how to point the thing, let alone hit something without shooting a LOT. A snap-shot is made when you have no idea how to fit something or you don't have time to aim, and human conscripts wouldn't have any practice... and Orks wouldn't really care. Ya just need more dakka if ya ain't shooin' it.

Guardsmen should be BS2. They've had a few weeks of training and maybe a few battles, but they're not professional soldiers.

Professional soldiers (including Fire Warriors) should be BS3. We'll throw Guardians on this list as well, given their thousands of years and training. They know how to shoot a gun well and keep doing so under fire. They live, breath, and die war.

Space Marines, Aspect Warriors, and other super-humans should be BS4 (as well as things with high levels of technological assistance for targeting, like Eldar and Tau tanks and suits).

Basically, every statement there is wrong. I guess you haven't read either IG nor Ork fluff. Orks actually managed to outshoot tau in the war of Dakka. They do know how and where to shoot. And guardsmen are well trained military. For some reason you think that IG fully consists of conscripts that hold the gunz by the barrels and aim backwards.

Fire warriors are clearly not superior to human soldiers in the marksman's art. They have better gunz and advanced targeting systems which is well represented by pulse rifles being 36' s5 and markers.

Storm troopers are more than professional soldiers. They've got special training and appropriate limited wargear. They're more like special forces like "Delta" or advanced SWAT. And they're one head above an average soldier due to every-day training.

The wiki entry on the war of dakka indicates that was based on volume of fire, not accuracy of it. At any rate, humans use the same tactic- lots of crappy guns, rather than quality.

At any rate, since superstitious Imperials *love* to cite these to dis on the Tau, I'll cite the Dawn of War series and the Fire Warrior to indicate the superior morale and aiming skills of Fire Warriors over Guardsmen. DoW mechanics give the Tau a 70% chance of hitting versus 50% for a lasgun fired by a Guardsman.

Well DoW is definitely non-canon!!!

I'd definitely say IG vets and Stormies are superior to Scouts, Scouts are rookies, they've just been brainwashed and they're getting used to all their new implants. Veterans, however, have been field stripping lasguns since age ten, and probably firing them since about that age as well, as have Stormtroopers, who are literally bred into combat.

10? I didn't think PDF started so early.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Spoiler:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.

It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"

Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.

In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)

There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.

Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.

You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.

The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.

And you base this on... what?

Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.

But they lack the most important part, imagnination. They have no imagination, literally. That makes me infinitely better than them. That makes earth caste finitely better than them. With 60 years to live, they accomplish more than almost any magnos. that is why they are better.

Actions speak louder than words. The Mechanicum can't make anything new- the Tau do, and with frequency. The Earth Caste has fielded more than a few new weapon systems that have given the Imperium a heap of trouble- the Riptide and Tiger Shark Ax-1-0 come readily to mind. Meanwhile, the Adeptus Mechanicum hasn't so much as invented a new energy drink for Guardsmen, am I correct?

Hellfire ammo against the 'Nids, Mk. 8 Errant Power Armour and the miniaturized Power Fists to go with them.

Wow, something more than an energy drink.

It's time to go to work, so I can't keep going, but I'll handle this much.

You've named two items. The first, Mk VIII armor, was the creation of the Mechanicus. The prior version, the Mk VII, was created during the last stages of the Horus Heresy. It took TEN THOUSAND YEARS for the Mechanicum to improve- slightly- on an already-existing design. The Tau took six thousand years to go from throwing spears to rail guns on tanks.

For the second... do you have a source saying that the Mechanicus was actually responsible for Hellfire rounds? I can't find any. Granted, it's great that someone in the Imperium is capable of creating *any*thing new, but I imagine there's a reason on Space Marines use Hellfire rounds.

You're moving the goalposts.

As a reference for the Hellfire rounds, it's either the Mechanicus or some Techmarines, i.e. the Mechanicus. The Chapter Techmarines are responsible for production and resupply of the Chapter's weapons. You'll note that I didn't ask you for a reference to make sure that the Earth Caste actually built the AX-1-0, since I thought that was patently obviousl, but while we're at it, what's your source?

You'll also note that the AX-1-0 is a weapons swap, in which case every single Razorback, Land Raider, Whirlwind, Chimera, Leman Russ, Baneblade, Titan, and so forth has to count as well.

For further innovation, there's the Nemesis Class Fleet Carrier, which is even from M41.

I didn't move the goalpost. The goalpost is, and always will be, a feat of engineering- even one that is a rare example- that compares to what the Tau Earth Caste does on a regular basis. What I did was make fun of you for not being able to get out of your goal zone. Congrats, you made it five yards up the field. Only 95 more to go!

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tiger_Shark_AX-1-0

At your insistence, I started looking into some of the variants.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Whirlwind

"The Whirlwind Hunter, more commonly known simply as the Hunter, is the first known dedicated anti-aircraft platform used by the Adeptus Astartes. Many years before the discovery of the Standard Template Construct (STC) designs for the Hunter variant, the Space Marine forces had attempted many times to retrofit their Whirlwinds to fire accurately at enemy aircraft, with largely negative results."

"The Whirlwind Stalker, more commonly known simply as the Stalker, is a variant of the Hunter anti-air tank. The Stalker is based on the Hunter Standard Template Construct (STC) data, and was rediscovered only several millinnia ago"

It seems like the common theme with a lot of these is that either 1) they were made with STCs or 2) they predate the Horus Heresy, and thus are likely from STCs. That the AM failed to build a mobile anti-aircraft platform isn't merely embarrassing by Tau standards- it is embarrassing by modern US Army standards. They had little trouble slapping some Stinger missiles on a Bradley chassis- and taking the missiles off of individual M6 es and replacing them with the traditional Bradley weapon systems.

Even if we count variants, we need only look at the amount of effort required to see the difference. When the Forge world that produced the LR Vanquisher was captured, most Forge Worlds that tried to recreate it (a weapon distinctly inferior to the Hammerhead in most respects) failed to recreate it- and the two that did won't allow their design to be tested against the original, which says a lot about the quality of their recreation.

Meanwhile, the Tau slapped a starship's gun on a fighter plane and not only did it work, it worked VERY well. In comparison, the Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Mechanicum were incapable of creating a Whirlwind variant for anti-aircraft duties. They had to find an STC.

As for the Nemesis being new, I'm not seeing it. While its on both wikis and in BFG, I don't see anything about it, except that the Imperium has never actually built one from scratch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fifty wrote:
Well DoW is definitely non-canon!!!

Funny how that's never true when people are talking about supposed Tau concentration camps and non-discriminate WMDs.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Funny how that's never true when people are talking about supposed Tau concentration camps and non-discriminate WMDs.

Or the entire Blood Ravens Space Marine chapter.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I'd definitely say IG vets and Stormies are superior to Scouts, Scouts are rookies, they've just been brainwashed and they're getting used to all their new implants. Veterans, however, have been field stripping lasguns since age ten, and probably firing them since about that age as well, as have Stormtroopers, who are literally bred into combat.

Let's ignore all of the really cool and awesome Space Marine Chapters. I can counter that with Smurfs.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ultramarines#Recruitment

Not only are Ultramarine aspirants likely to be training from a similarly early age (if not earlier), they're often trained by a family that has successfully trained many aspirants over the generations, passing down techniques even outside of standard Imperial methods.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Spoiler:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Guardsmen are often picked from the best soldiers a planet's PDF has to offer, leaving the lesser echelons behind as a Garrison force.

It's a weird dissonance in 40K, as the authors try to make everything GRIMDARKONTOPOFGRIMDARK by claiming that Guardsmen are "the everyman" like you and I who'll only live a day on most battlefields and any soldier gritty enough to survive a battle is reborn as an experienced rambo-veteran because that's just how hardcore the 40K-verse is, while simultaneously they're like "but hey gais the Guard aren't poorly trained losers! They're actually the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer [that aren't Spece Marines or Sisters]!"

Except that vets and storm-troopers are the best fighting men the Imperium has to offer.

In my mind, based on The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, the best men in the Imperium become that way IN SPITE of Imperial training, and not because of it. Yes, the men competent enough to get out of their PDF unit are probably not much better than conscripts. Even then, based on how incredibly corrupt the Imperium is, I guarantee you that it is rarely the best that actually make it into the Guard, as everyone who can bribes their local government official to make sure someone else is going in their stead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Tau only live 40 years or so. They don't have time to train effectively as Marines or even grizzled IG Vets do.
Tau have poor depth perception and ae near sighted so rely on technology to fill in the gaps, unlike Marines who have enhanced eyesight AND technological targeting arrays, or even the regular eyesight of humans.
Tau's superior firepower comes from the range and strength of the ordnance over the Imperium's standard weaponry. Ok, compared to a bolter its not much (+6" range and +1 strength) but compared to a Lasgun its fantastic (+6" range, +2 Strength and AP5)

There's a lot of stuff that I want to disagree with in this thread, but lets start here.

Tau live about 40 years. In that time, an Earth Caste scientist can reach a level of knowledge had nowhere in the Imperium except *maybe* on Mars... and that's a maybe, because I doubt that the Mechanicum is capable of engineering feats like building from scratch a fighter aircraft to hunt Titans. The Tau did that in a fairly short period of time.
.

You gravely underestimate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're not just operative on Mars you know.

The best of them are on Mars... and still, after 120 years of living on Mars, the best technicians and scientists of the Imperium would be hard-pressed to out-think a 20-year old Tau scientist or technician.

And you base this on... what?

Let's put it this way: the most skilled members of the Adeptus Mechanicus would make the Earth Caste Engineers look like beginners. 120 years is nothing for a Mechanicus member, and even then a Magos or higher could easily have magnitudes more brainpower than an Earth Caste pilot.

But they lack the most important part, imagnination. They have no imagination, literally. That makes me infinitely better than them. That makes earth caste finitely better than them. With 60 years to live, they accomplish more than almost any magnos. that is why they are better.

Actions speak louder than words. The Mechanicum can't make anything new- the Tau do, and with frequency. The Earth Caste has fielded more than a few new weapon systems that have given the Imperium a heap of trouble- the Riptide and Tiger Shark Ax-1-0 come readily to mind. Meanwhile, the Adeptus Mechanicum hasn't so much as invented a new energy drink for Guardsmen, am I correct?

Hellfire ammo against the 'Nids, Mk. 8 Errant Power Armour and the miniaturized Power Fists to go with them.

Wow, something more than an energy drink.

It's time to go to work, so I can't keep going, but I'll handle this much.

You've named two items. The first, Mk VIII armor, was the creation of the Mechanicus. The prior version, the Mk VII, was created during the last stages of the Horus Heresy. It took TEN THOUSAND YEARS for the Mechanicum to improve- slightly- on an already-existing design. The Tau took six thousand years to go from throwing spears to rail guns on tanks.

For the second... do you have a source saying that the Mechanicus was actually responsible for Hellfire rounds? I can't find any. Granted, it's great that someone in the Imperium is capable of creating *any*thing new, but I imagine there's a reason on Space Marines use Hellfire rounds.

You're moving the goalposts.

As a reference for the Hellfire rounds, it's either the Mechanicus or some Techmarines, i.e. the Mechanicus. The Chapter Techmarines are responsible for production and resupply of the Chapter's weapons. You'll note that I didn't ask you for a reference to make sure that the Earth Caste actually built the AX-1-0, since I thought that was patently obviousl, but while we're at it, what's your source?

You'll also note that the AX-1-0 is a weapons swap, in which case every single Razorback, Land Raider, Whirlwind, Chimera, Leman Russ, Baneblade, Titan, and so forth has to count as well.

For further innovation, there's the Nemesis Class Fleet Carrier, which is even from M41.

I didn't move the goalpost. The goalpost is, and always will be, a feat of engineering- even one that is a rare example- that compares to what the Tau Earth Caste does on a regular basis. What I did was make fun of you for not being able to get out of your goal zone. Congrats, you made it five yards up the field. Only 95 more to go!

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tiger_Shark_AX-1-0

At your insistence, I started looking into some of the variants.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Whirlwind

"The Whirlwind Hunter, more commonly known simply as the Hunter, is the first known dedicated anti-aircraft platform used by the Adeptus Astartes. Many years before the discovery of the Standard Template Construct (STC) designs for the Hunter variant, the Space Marine forces had attempted many times to retrofit their Whirlwinds to fire accurately at enemy aircraft, with largely negative results."

"The Whirlwind Stalker, more commonly known simply as the Stalker, is a variant of the Hunter anti-air tank. The Stalker is based on the Hunter Standard Template Construct (STC) data, and was rediscovered only several millinnia ago"

It seems like the common theme with a lot of these is that either 1) they were made with STCs or 2) they predate the Horus Heresy, and thus are likely from STCs. That the AM failed to build a mobile anti-aircraft platform isn't merely embarrassing by Tau standards- it is embarrassing by modern US Army standards. They had little trouble slapping some Stinger missiles on a Bradley chassis- and taking the missiles off of individual M6 es and replacing them with the traditional Bradley weapon systems.

I'll just leave this here. There's no need to invent a new vehicle when you have a working one.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I'll just leave this here. There's no need to invent a new vehicle when you have a working one.

The Hyperios was developed after the Hunter. In fact the Hyperios is the newest model of Whirlwind.

So it still took the Space Marines/Admech a ridiculously long time to do a basic weapon swap on a vehicle. That's not really helping your case.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I'll just leave this here. There's no need to invent a new vehicle when you have a working one.

The Hyperios was developed after the Hunter. In fact the Hyperios is the newest model of Whirlwind.

So it still took the Space Marines/Admech a ridiculously long time to do a basic weapon swap on a vehicle. That's not really helping your case.

There's also the part where the Whirlwind is perfectly capable of firing anti-air missiles on its own, fluff-wise. So yeah.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I'll just leave this here. There's no need to invent a new vehicle when you have a working one.

The Hyperios was developed after the Hunter. In fact the Hyperios is the newest model of Whirlwind.

So it still took the Space Marines/Admech a ridiculously long time to do a basic weapon swap on a vehicle. That's not really helping your case.

There's also the part where the Whirlwind is perfectly capable of firing anti-air missiles on its own, fluff-wise. So yeah.

Well, not with any accuracy, otherwise the space marines wouldn't have been rushing to try and get an alternative.

New inventions by the Imperium of Man since the Horus Heresy ended?

Land Raiders: Crusader, Redeemer, Ares, Hyperios, Terminus Ultra
Rhino variants: Damocles Rhino, Razorback, Hunter, Stalker, Whirlwind Hyperios, Baal Predator, Predator Infernus (debatable), Vindicator (varies on source)
Also have
Land Speeder Storm
Mk VIII armour
Stormraven
Stormtalon
Centurions
Psychic Hood (as before the Heresy Librarians were not permitted by and large and didn't need to protect themselves from Daemons they didn't know existed)
Psycannons
Psilincers
DA Land Speeder Vengeance, Darkshroud, Dark Talon, Nephilim Jetfighter
Various LRMBT variants
Many variants of lots of vehicle such as Chimera and Valkyrie


Just to name a few.

What the tau have done

Learned how to fly
Learn physics
Learn how to make spacecraft
Learn how to make inferior versions of imperial plasma technology

 Deadshot wrote:

Learn how to make inferior versions of imperial plasma technology

Tau Plasma technology isn't inferior. They could make it as powerful as Imperium plasma weapons but decided that actually having the user survive firing it was the better option.

Also, how many of those imperial inventions were actually invented, as opposed to an old STC being discovered?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Learn how to make inferior versions of imperial plasma technology

Tau Plasma technology isn't inferior. They could make it as powerful as Imperium plasma weapons but decided that actually having the user survive firing it was the better option.

Also, how many of those imperial inventions were actually invented, as opposed to an old STC being discovered?

That makes it inferior. We can make it more powerful with a small chance of it overheating. And when overheating it has a small chance of inflicting death, while most of the time it merely singes or burns.

Also, how much Tau tech was invented and not just copied from what they saw the Imperium or leave behind use or we already built and designed thousands and thousands of years ago? Or the Eldar for that matter.

As for your question, much of it was invented. The Land Raider Crusader, Redeemer and definately the Ares were all designed for a purpose. The Razorback is new, the Predator Infernus is thought to be an attempt to recreate the Baal Predator. As mentioned, the Stalker, Hunter and Hyperios Whirlwinds were all attempts to make an AA tank. The Land Raider Hyperios was to make their Hyperios almost indestructible. Others I cannot answer but generally speaking weapons are created in a response to a threat

The Imperium didn't leave anything behind for the Tau to find when they were developing their weapons. The only contact with the imperium before the tau had their weapons was an observation ship, which saw the Tau before the Tau underwent their rapid evolution. Between that time and basically the Damocles Crusade the Tau sector was cut off from the Imperium by warp storms.

So the Tau didn't copy anything from the Imperium. Why would they need to when the weaponry they developed is superior? Pulse Rifles are better than Boltguns, Railguns are better than Lascannons etc.

There is no evidence in any of the codices to suggest the Tau based their technology on left behind artefacts of an alien race.

 Deadshot wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Learn how to make inferior versions of imperial plasma technology

Tau Plasma technology isn't inferior. They could make it as powerful as Imperium plasma weapons but decided that actually having the user survive firing it was the better option.

Also, how many of those imperial inventions were actually invented, as opposed to an old STC being discovered?

That makes it inferior. We can make it more powerful with a small chance of it overheating. And when overheating it has a small chance of inflicting death, while most of the time it merely singes or burns.

Also, how much Tau tech was invented and not just copied from what they saw the Imperium or leave behind use or we already built and designed thousands and thousands of years ago? Or the Eldar for that matter.

As for your question, much of it was invented. The Land Raider Crusader, Redeemer and definately the Ares were all designed for a purpose. The Razorback is new, the Predator Infernus is thought to be an attempt to recreate the Baal Predator. As mentioned, the Stalker, Hunter and Hyperios Whirlwinds were all attempts to make an AA tank. The Land Raider Hyperios was to make their Hyperios almost indestructible. Others I cannot answer but generally speaking weapons are created in a response to a threat

That doesn't make it inferior is the slightest. The tau have decided to forgo some of the stopping power for a degree of safety. It's a rational decision, it could be the same power, but it is not so it doesn't explode in your hands. How is that inferior? It's s decision we would make today, but that wouldn't make it less powerful.

And no, none of the tech the tau have was based on anyone else other than the repulser impact field.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Learn how to make inferior versions of imperial plasma technology

Tau Plasma technology isn't inferior. They could make it as powerful as Imperium plasma weapons but decided that actually having the user survive firing it was the better option.

Also, how many of those imperial inventions were actually invented, as opposed to an old STC being discovered?

That makes it inferior. We can make it more powerful with a small chance of it overheating. And when overheating it has a small chance of inflicting death, while most of the time it merely singes or burns.

Also, how much Tau tech was invented and not just copied from what they saw the Imperium or leave behind use or we already built and designed thousands and thousands of years ago? Or the Eldar for that matter.

As for your question, much of it was invented. The Land Raider Crusader, Redeemer and definately the Ares were all designed for a purpose. The Razorback is new, the Predator Infernus is thought to be an attempt to recreate the Baal Predator. As mentioned, the Stalker, Hunter and Hyperios Whirlwinds were all attempts to make an AA tank. The Land Raider Hyperios was to make their Hyperios almost indestructible. Others I cannot answer but generally speaking weapons are created in a response to a threat

That doesn't make it inferior is the slightest. The tau have decided to forgo some of the stopping power for a degree of safety. It's a rational decision, it could be the same power, but it is not so it doesn't explode in your hands. How is that inferior? It's s decision we would make today, but that wouldn't make it less powerful.

And no, none of the tech the tau have was based on anyone else other than the repulser impact field.

Depends on your definition of superior I guess. Frankly I would take small risk for big reward.
It is quite obvious the design for thier tech is heavily inspired by what they see other races fielding. Suits? Dreadnoughts. XV25? Terminators. Flying tanks? Wave Serpent. Their flyers? The Razorshark and the other one have clear links to the Eldar flyers with their elegant lines and ariel support role. The Manta is an oversized Thunderhawk (or Stormbird equivilrent). Their weaponry? Burst cannon is an Assault Cannon wannabe, the fusion blaster is the same as a melta gun. Their plasma rifles have inferior stopping power. They lack titans, advanced AI like Land Raiders and Titans have, Warp Drives, fully enclosed armour, life-extending systems, and loads of others.
What do the Tau actually have that the Imperium can't say "Been there, done that?"

Except they designed all of that (with the exception of the XV-25 which is just a refinement of the XV-15) before encountering any of the Imperiums military forces, so no, you're wrong.

Also, the Fusion Blaster is superior to the Melta gun.

They have AIs well in advance of the Imperium and actually know how to make them, too. One of Farsights Eight is an AI construct based on one of Farsights old team leaders in control of a Broadside battlesuit.

Also, the Manta is way more than an oversized Thunderhawk. It has more firepower and carries a whole army.

Oh and they do have life extending systems, most notably Stasis but also more focussed types such as the life support suite built into Commander Bravestorms Crisis Suit.

 Deadshot wrote:


Depends on your definition of superior I guess. Frankly I would take small risk for big reward. Reltivly small difference between the two fluffwise. They still make gaping holes in marines.
It is quite obvious the design for thier tech is heavily inspired by what they see other races fielding.
Suits? Dreadnoughts. Invented before they met
XV25? Terminators. The original stealth suit (XV15) was invented before they met
Flying tanks? Wave Serpent. Invented before they met
Their flyers? The Razorshark and the other one have clear links to the Eldar flyers with their elegant lines and ariel support role. Invented before they met for most, and that's how many SUPPORT AIRCRAFT operate.
The Manta is an oversized Thunderhawk (or Stormbird equivilrent). Invented before they met (IIRC)
Their weaponry? Burst cannon is an Assault Cannon wannabe, the fusion blaster is the same as a melta gun. Invented before they met. The burst cannon is just rapid firing pulse carbine
Their plasma rifles have inferior stopping power. Invented before they met, and they take a small degree of stopping power off so that they would not blow up like imperial ones.
They lack titans, Earth caste doesn't make them because they are deemed a waste of materials, espeicaly when tau can destroy titans with (relitive) ease via tiger sharks.
advanced AI like Land Raiders and Titans have, Try again, Remora.
Warp Drives, Have those, although they can't do a full submersion as they lack psykers.
fully enclosed armour, You have obiously never seen tau.
life-extending systems, I will agree on this one, but the stasis chambers certainly help
and loads of others. What pray tell?
What do the Tau actually have that the Imperium can't say "Been there, done that?" Nothing that I know of, but that in no way means it's copied off them

Shas'vre could probably do with BS4, for Shas'ui I think it might be too much.

IMO if your the pilot of a 20ft tall experimental Riptide battlesuit or the leader of a team of elite battlesuits you should be able to shoot slightly better the an average Fire Warrior and that's before you take into account computer targeting etc.