Russia bans transgenders (amongst others) from driving

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**dogma**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
All this thread is confirming is that Bronze Age religions are incompatible with thinking, compassionate human beings, amongst other things.

Which religion would that be? All Abrahamic religions came to be after the Bronze age.

**ATXMILEY**

Wow I'm surprised that there aren't very many Russian trolls hired by Putin trolling Dakka

Seeing that Warhammer is very popular in Russia...

**Orlanth**

ATXMILEY wrote:
Wow I'm surprised that there aren't very many Russian trolls hired by Putin trolling Dakka

Seeing that Warhammer is very popular in Russia...

50 cent party is a Chinese thing.

**Baxx**

Torga_DW wrote:

They've had nukes and modern weapons for longer than i've been alive. Sometimes you do have to draw a line in the sand, but if you're going to start a potential nuke war i'd sincerely hope you had a good reason.

As Sting said, "I hope the russians love their children too". I am not convinced jihadists for instance love their children when they encourage them to martyrdom and suicide bombings. That is a difference.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iron_Captain wrote:
Baxx wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Sometimes you just need to stop waving around your own cultural values as morally superior and force them upon other peoples with different values.

In the case of Russias politics of discriminating against homosexuals and trans, their cultural values are obviously morally inferiour to those of most western countries. It is no problem comparing different values and point out which are better or not, objectively.
Please explain to me how you can 'objectively' judge a culture. What you are saying sounds like some kind of cultural fascism.

Easily. I loan the example from Sam Harris. Imagine an isolated society with a tradition of sticking out the eyes of every third-born baby.

Can you say that this is morally inferiour to any culture without this practice? Or would it be fascism to do so?

**Iron_Captain**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
MrDwhitey wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
He faces Vitaly Milonov, a man with a vastly different history, culture and values, known for his zealous persecution of homosexuals. Milonov is a highly conservative christian, and his religion is of paramount importance to him. Just look at all the icons, Bibles, model churches and other religious stuff in his office. The guy even has a portrait of the Patriarch hanging on the wall behind him!

See, I have loads of Gundam models but I don't zealously follow the principles of Char Aznable.

So, yeah, it is madness.

He's clearly a buffoon just like strongly homophobic people in our own counties, unfortunately he has influence in running it. He's not highly intelligent and reasonable, because he spouts total nonsense that isn't evidence based. It's not just a different but equally valid logic as Iron Captain argues. The guy is just wrong and saying stuff that doesn't stand up under any 'logic' other than that coming from a very conservative reading of a holy book. If you're just going to legislate based on scripture instead of looking at the facts and evidence of actual threat, then you're no better than the loonies running counties in the Middle East that imprison people for dancing in the street. Well I suppose Russia did imprison people for dancing in a church, so they aren't far off.

Again, this is just your point of view. You and I think what he says is total nonsense, but to millions of others out there, it makes perfect sense. He derives his logic from a holy book he strongly believes in, you derive your logic from different sources. What he says is wrong according to your logic, but right according to his. Truth is relative.

Also, I hope you realise the difference between religion and fiction. People generally do not cover their rooms in religious symbols unless they follow that religion's principles.

Baxx wrote:

Iron_Captain wrote:
Baxx wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Sometimes you just need to stop waving around your own cultural values as morally superior and force them upon other peoples with different values.

In the case of Russias politics of discriminating against homosexuals and trans, their cultural values are obviously morally inferiour to those of most western countries. It is no problem comparing different values and point out which are better or not, objectively.
Please explain to me how you can 'objectively' judge a culture. What you are saying sounds like some kind of cultural fascism.

Easily. I loan the example from Sam Harris. Imagine an isolated society with a tradition of sticking out the eyes of every third-born baby.

Can you say that this is morally inferiour to any culture without this practice? Or would it be fascism to do so?

Reductio ad absurdum.
When you find an actual society with a practice like that, come back and tell me. Before I can comment on such a thing it would be neccessary to know a whole lot more about that culture.

**djones520**

dogma wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
All this thread is confirming is that Bronze Age religions are incompatible with thinking, compassionate human beings, amongst other things.

Which religion would that be? All Abrahamic religions came to be after the Bronze age.

Judaism is definitely a bronze age religion.

**MrDwhitey**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, I hope you realise the difference between religion and fiction. People generally do not cover their rooms in religious symbols unless they follow that religion's principles.

Generally it's that people seem to believe one of them is real. Besides that, no difference.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

[code]

MrDwhitey wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
He faces Vitaly Milonov, a man with a vastly different history, culture and values, known for his zealous persecution of homosexuals. Milonov is a highly conservative christian, and his religion is of paramount importance to him. Just look at all the icons, Bibles, model churches and other religious stuff in his office. The guy even has a portrait of the Patriarch hanging on the wall behind him!

See, I have loads of Gundam models but I don't zealously follow the principles of Char Aznable.

So, yeah, it is madness.

Madness? This is...Russia.

**Hordini**

djones520 wrote:
dogma wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
All this thread is confirming is that Bronze Age religions are incompatible with thinking, compassionate human beings, amongst other things.

Which religion would that be? All Abrahamic religions came to be after the Bronze age.

Judaism is definitely a bronze age religion.

Christianity and Islam are definitely not, however. It's arguable as to whether or not Judaism qualifies.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Well, at what point did Judaism become Judaism? I expect that at some point, a mish mash of wandering tribes and religious traditions and legends were amalgamated into the ethnicity and religion we now know as Judaism.

Back then in the Bronze Age, these "Jews" probably didn't call themselves that.

**Hordini**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Well, at what point did Judaism become Judaism? I expect that at some point, a mish mash of wandering tribes and religious traditions and legends were amalgamated into the ethnicity and religion we now know as Judaism.

Back then in the Bronze Age, these "Jews" probably didn't call themselves that.

That's why it's arguable.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And you're missing the point entirely. It's hypocritical of us to bleat about human rights in Russia, when we're still drowning unconvicted terror suspects in Cuba.

Pretty sure that's rather irrelevant.

**djones520**

Hordini wrote:
djones520 wrote:
dogma wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
All this thread is confirming is that Bronze Age religions are incompatible with thinking, compassionate human beings, amongst other things.

Which religion would that be? All Abrahamic religions came to be after the Bronze age.

Judaism is definitely a bronze age religion.

Christianity and Islam are definitely not, however. It's arguable as to whether or not Judaism qualifies.

1400 BC is about the date of the formation of the original Jewish kingdom in Israel (post Exodus). That puts it firmly in the Bronze Age.

Has the religion evolved since then? Certainly. So has every other religion on the planet. It was still Judaism though.

**Co'tor Shas**

Discrimination is wrong, everywhere. Civil and human rights abuses are wrong, everywhere. I don't care about "oh, the west should leave Russia alone". What Russia is doing is wrong. Other people do things that are wrong but that does not excuse wrong acts.

**Medium of Death**

What moral authority do you have to say that what another country is doing is "wrong" if you also do things that could be considered "wrong"?

What exactly do you propose to combat this "problem"?

**djones520**

Medium of Death wrote:
What moral authority do you have to say that what another country is doing is "wrong" if you also do things that could be considered "wrong"?

What exactly do you propose to combat this "problem"?

If I also do things? Tell me, what do I do that is wrong?

**Medium of Death**

djones520 wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
What moral authority do you have to say that what another country is doing is "wrong" if you also do things that could be considered "wrong"?

What exactly do you propose to combat this "problem"?

If I also do things? Tell me, what do I do that is wrong?

Are you a country?

Supporting Saudi Arabia could be one. Extremely homophobic country.

Bit hypocritical to have a go at Russia isn't it?

**whembly**

djones520 wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
What moral authority do you have to say that what another country is doing is "wrong" if you also do things that could be considered "wrong"?

What exactly do you propose to combat this "problem"?

If I also do things? Tell me, what do I do that is wrong?

Dude... we're evil and bad...

because, reason.

**Medium of Death**

I think you're projecting.

I'm suggesting it's a bit hypocritical to suggest that Russia should somehow be punished for its views on Homosexuals while giving support to places like Saudi.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

America's just as homophobic as Russia, according to Dakka Dakka Off Topic. Something in the book you read I guess.

**djones520**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
America's just as homophobic as Russia, according to Dakka Dakka Off Topic. Something in the book you read I guess.

What?

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

I'm referring to the weekly American Homophobia discussions. In case that wasn't obvious enough...

**djones520**

Medium of Death wrote:
I think you're projecting.

I'm suggesting it's a bit hypocritical to suggest that Russia should somehow be punished for its views on Homosexuals while giving support to places like Saudi.

Well considering the UK and Saudi Arabia have ties just about as close as ours, I'd watch how hard you cast them stones... might chip your walls.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I'm referring to the weekly American Homophobia discussions. In case that wasn't obvious enough...

The only discussion of late has been the topic of how Russia is discriminating against them, and somehow you lovely Europeans have again turned it into a Bash America discussion. *rolls eyes*

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

As opposed to a Bash Russia discussion? *Guffaws*

Automatically Appended Next Post:

djones520 wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
I think you're projecting.

I'm suggesting it's a bit hypocritical to suggest that Russia should somehow be punished for its views on Homosexuals while giving support to places like Saudi.

Well considering the UK and Saudi Arabia have ties just about as close as ours, I'd watch how hard you cast them stones... might chip your walls.

I despise my own government as much as I do yours.

**djones520**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
As opposed to a Bash Russia discussion? *Guffaws*

What is the title of the thread?

"Russia bans transgenders..."

**Medium of Death**

djones520 wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
I think you're projecting.

I'm suggesting it's a bit hypocritical to suggest that Russia should somehow be punished for its views on Homosexuals while giving support to places like Saudi.

Well considering the UK and Saudi Arabia have ties just about as close as ours, I'd watch how hard you cast them stones... might chip your walls.

Do you assume everything is an attack on America? We've had lots of people from different countries, including the UK, suggest what Russia is doing is wrong. Most of those countries support Saudi.

Nice counter argument though considering I'm not even supporting doing anything about Russia treating homosexuals the way they do.

**Iron_Captain**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
America's just as homophobic as Russia, according to Dakka Dakka Off Topic. Something in the book you read I guess.

I have a hard time believing that. America has got plenty of homophobia, but I think it doesn't even come close to Russia.
Altough, public opinion in Russia towards gay people does seem to be improving.
In a poll in 1989, 31% of Russians were of the opinion that gay people should be executed for their sin, while in in 1994, when asked the same question, only 23% thought executing gay people was a great idea. So much progress!!!

No really, outside of Islamic countries or Belarus, you are probably not going to find a more conservative and homophobic country than Russia.

**Baxx**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iron_Captain wrote:

Easily. I loan the example from Sam Harris. Imagine an isolated society with a tradition of sticking out the eyes of every third-born baby.

Can you say that this is morally inferiour to any culture without this practice? Or would it be fascism to do so?
Reductio ad absurdum.
When you find an actual society with a practice like that, come back and tell me. Before I can comment on such a thing it would be neccessary to know a whole lot more about that culture.

You need to know more about a culture to condemn the practice of sticking out eyes of babies because of religious tradition?

If that's the case, nothing I can say will have any effect.

**Co'tor Shas**

You know, here's the thing. I'm not saying this as an American, but as an individual. I believe this to be wrong. And discrimination is pretty resolutely in the wrong, only those who discriminate themselves disagree, and they will still object when then they are discriminated against themselves.

**Medium of Death**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
You know, here's the thing. I'm not saying this as an American, but as an individual. I believe this to be wrong. And discrimination is pretty resolutely in the wrong, only those who discriminate themselves disagree, and they will still object when then they are discriminated against themselves.

All discrimination is wrong?