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 AegisGrimm wrote:
Every major society is either currently a bunch of psychos, or has been in their history.

Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch trials, the entire reason the Pilgrims came to North America, etc.

*backs away slowly*

Human Rights are such a terrible argument for intervention, especially war with another country.

It's as spurious as claiming WW2 was about saving Jews.

Ah jes, we must stop those terrible transgenders from making the streets unsafe.

 whembly wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The West really shouldn't do anything but to keep quiet and mind it's own business. The West interfering in Russia's internal affairs will only make things worse because to the people it will confirm what the radical nationalists say and empower them.
We don't want the Liberal Democrats getting any more votes.

The west has no business standing up against violations of human rights!

Could you be any bigger of an apologist? Seriously?

Guantanamo.

British Colonial Days...

Wanna play this game?

Sure, I'll play. That was then this is now.

Human rights were calculated differently in the 19th century and the 21st, and things were different then, besides the colonial era was a strange time. The British Empire took more land from more people than any empire in human history. It also blocked slavery, much to the chagrin of the "freedom loving" USA.
Lets not have a pissing contest, you go back far enough and everyone hands are dirty.

Americans didnt ask nicely for Indian land, and the Americans that came from Europe came from land their ancestors stole.

I find it best summed up in a rehash of a racist slogan of the far right in the UK: "Britain for the British..." with the suffix of "...Saxons and Normans go home".

We are all the decendents of invaders, with exception of selected native peoples, with tracable geneology, most in Australasia.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ah jes, we must stop those terrible transgenders from making the streets unsafe.

Just to weigh in on that, keep in mind that since 2013, Russian are allowed to be intoxicated while driving up to 0.035%. Because clearly, that's on par with other stuff like having a sex fetish.

...how on earth are you even going to prove someone having a fetish?!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I can still see some value in that other law that outlawed promotion of non-traditional lifestyles...

Which law would that be? Pretty much anything passed on the basis of preventing "non-traditional" things reeks of being backward and prejudiced.

Here are a couple of times where intervening in a country's affairs on these types of grounds went horribly wrong, Rhodesia and South Africa.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Here are a couple of times where intervening in a country's affairs on these types of grounds went horribly wrong, Rhodesia and South Africa.

Wait, who intervened in Rhodesia? I thought they were pretty much on their own after UDI?

 Medium of Death wrote:
Here are a couple of times where intervening in a country's affairs on these types of grounds went horribly wrong, Rhodesia and South Africa.

We aren't intervening in Russia, all that's being applied are certain sanctions that take effect outside of Russia. Foreigners don't have a complete right to travel and do business in our countries unless we wish them to. If we wish to restrict the freedoms of certain russian citizens and businesses in response to their supporting invasions of other counties, that happens to be "our business" as Iron Curtain puts it, we can chose who to do business with for our own reasons. We can pass comment on Russian legislation being prejudiced and discriminatory if we like, we do have a greater freedom of speech and in the press than Russian after all. None of this adds up to intervening with Russia. If any of this results in hurting the Russia's interests or it's economy, then really it's for them to reflect upon their own actions. There may be consequences for them throwing their weight around internationally and oppressing certain demographics in their own country, that's their choice, and we aren't obliged to do trade with them or give them free passage around the world.

Iron Captain's response is basically telling us to mind our own business and not pay attention to things Russia does, and carry on dealing with them as though business is normal. Well sorry, sometimes you don't always like the look of people you're doing business with.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Agreed.... If we're still living in a Westphalian system, then there's very little (actually, nothing) that we can/should do to stop Russia, beyond sending them hate mail and saying theyre bad.

My last name is Westphal. I like that I have a system named after me.

Hate to burst your bubble... but you don't really... the system is named after the Treaties of Westphalia, or Peace of Westphalia, as that is the location in Germany where they were made, thus ending the 30 years war, and setting up the "system" we've all been somewhat using for the last 4-5 hundred years.


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 Medium of Death wrote:
Here are a couple of times where intervening in a country's affairs on these types of grounds went horribly wrong, Rhodesia and South Africa.

Also, what intervention are you talking about for South Africa??

 Hordini wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Here are a couple of times where intervening in a country's affairs on these types of grounds went horribly wrong, Rhodesia and South Africa.

Wait, who intervened in Rhodesia? I thought they were pretty much on their own after UDI?

Pushing for Black Majority rule sooner than would have worked? Leading them to declare UDI? The Sanctions that followed that?

Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Here are a couple of times where intervening in a country's affairs on these types of grounds went horribly wrong, Rhodesia and South Africa.

We aren't intervening in Russia, all that's being applied are certain sanctions that take effect outside of Russia. Foreigners don't have a complete right to travel and do business in our countries unless we wish them to. If we wish to restrict the freedoms of certain russian citizens and businesses in response to their supporting invasions of other counties, that happens to be "our business" as Iron Curtain puts it, we can chose who to do business with for our own reasons. We can pass comment on Russian legislation being prejudiced and discriminatory if we like, we do have a greater freedom of speech and in the press than Russian after all. None of this adds up to intervening with Russia. If any of this results in hurting the Russia's interests or it's economy, then really it's for them to reflect upon their own actions. There may be consequences for them throwing their weight around internationally and oppressing certain demographics in their own country, that's their choice, and we aren't obliged to do trade with them or give them free passage around the world.

Iron Captain's response is basically telling us to mind our own business and not pay attention to things Russia does, and carry on dealing with them as though business is normal. Well sorry, sometimes you don't always like the look of people you're doing business with.

I'm focusing more on their internal policy and the thread topic. How they run their country. Obviously we can criticise it but it's not really sanction worthy is it? It'd be very hypocritical

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
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 Medium of Death wrote:
Here are a couple of times where intervening in a country's affairs on these types of grounds went horribly wrong, Rhodesia and South Africa.

Also, what intervention are you talking about for South Africa??

Sanctions on trade etc.

 Medium of Death wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Here are a couple of times where intervening in a country's affairs on these types of grounds went horribly wrong, Rhodesia and South Africa.

Wait, who intervened in Rhodesia? I thought they were pretty much on their own after UDI?

Pushing for Black Majority rule sooner than would have worked? Leading them to declare UDI? The Sanctions that followed that?

Oh, alright. I thought you were referring to more direct intervention.

Hate to burst your bubble... but you don't really... the system is named after the Treaties of Westphalia, or Peace of Westphalia, as that is the location in Germany where they were made, thus ending the 30 years war, and setting up the "system" we've all been somewhat using for the last 4-5 hundred years.

Oh, I knew that, I'm just being goofy. I always thought it was "funny" as my father's German side of the family is named Westphal, and are originally from the Westphalia region, too.


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 Sigvatr wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Every major society is either currently a bunch of psychos, or has been in their history.

Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch trials, the entire reason the Pilgrims came to North America, etc.

*backs away slowly*

Why? I'm just saying that no one gets to sling mud on that particular argument. Hell, it's one of the causes many cultures aren't around anymore.

Yeah, I think it started to get a bit confusing when people mentioned Ukraine.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ah jes, we must stop those terrible transgenders from making the streets unsafe.

Just to weigh in on that, keep in mind that since 2013, Russian are allowed to be intoxicated while driving up to 0.035%. Because clearly, that's on par with other stuff like having a sex fetish.

...how on earth are you even going to prove someone having a fetish?!

Sorry Sigvatr, I think you are misunderstanding the nature of the decree and law change. Its not about justice, its about labeling.

The people who decided if a driver has a fetish and should lose his or her license are those in power.
Also it helps the mob get riled about perverts in the society, perverts who cross dress, or are gay, or hate Putin's government, who are likely the worst perverts of them all.

Don't try to reconcile what is going on with any form of procedural justice. It's not supposed to add up.

Orlanth wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The West really shouldn't do anything but to keep quiet and mind it's own business. The West interfering in Russia's internal affairs will only make things worse because to the people it will confirm what the radical nationalists say and empower them.
We don't want the Liberal Democrats getting any more votes.

The west has no business standing up against violations of human rights!

Could you be any bigger of an apologist? Seriously?

Guantanamo.

British Colonial Days...

Wanna play this game?

Sure, I'll play. That was then this is now.

Human rights were calculated differently in the 19th century and the 21st, and things were different then, besides the colonial era was a strange time. The British Empire took more land from more people than any empire in human history. It also blocked slavery, much to the chagrin of the "freedom loving" USA.

Great argument.
Human rights are calculated differently in Russia, and things are different there, besides the post-soviet era is a strange time. The Russian Federation limits the rights of some minorities such as homosexuals. It also ended the cultural supression of many minority peoples and restored the historic rights of some previously persecuted ethnicties such as the Cossacks and Volga Tatars.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I can still see some value in that other law that outlawed promotion of non-traditional lifestyles...

Which law would that be? Pretty much anything passed on the basis of preventing "non-traditional" things reeks of being backward and prejudiced.

That law Western media made such a fuss about last year.
It was aimed at preventing the promotion of non-traditional lifestyles, not on non-traditional lifestyles an sich. You can still be completely gay in Russia without any trouble. The only difference is that now your gay club can not have a large flashy neon sign anymore.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Iron Captain's response is basically telling us to mind our own business and not pay attention to things Russia does, and carry on dealing with them as though business is normal. Well sorry, sometimes you don't always like the look of people you're doing business with.

And sometimes, well sorry, you have to let go of your principles in favour of a realistic approach. Sometimes you just need to stop waving around your own cultural values as morally superior and force them upon other peoples with different values.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Sometimes you just need to stop waving around your own cultural values as morally superior and force them upon other peoples with different values.

In the case of Russias politics of discriminating against homosexuals and trans, their cultural values are obviously morally inferiour to those of most western countries. It is no problem comparing different values and point out which are better or not, objectively.

It is not easy being homosexual in Russia today. Look at the sheer madness Stephen Fry faces:





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 AegisGrimm wrote:
Every major society is either currently a bunch of psychos, or has been in their history.
.

The difference today is that those psychos have modern weapons, can start war and launch nuclear weapons. Which gives greater need for action against psychos today than previously.

 Orlanth wrote:
Don't try to reconcile what is going on with any form of procedural justice. It's not supposed to add up.

Its a form of justice known as social justice. Right and wrong are determined by popularity and propaganda. It does add up, just not the way regular 'justice' does.


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Baxx wrote:
The difference today is that those psychos have modern weapons, can start war and launch nuclear weapons. Which gives greater need for action against psychos today than previously.

They've had nukes and modern weapons for longer than i've been alive. Sometimes you do have to draw a line in the sand, but if you're going to start a potential nuke war i'd sincerely hope you had a good reason.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Don't try to reconcile what is going on with any form of procedural justice. It's not supposed to add up.

Its a form of justice known as social justice. Right and wrong are determined by popularity and propaganda. It does add up, just not the way regular 'justice' does.

I can go along with your interpretation.

Baxx wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Sometimes you just need to stop waving around your own cultural values as morally superior and force them upon other peoples with different values.

In the case of Russias politics of discriminating against homosexuals and trans, their cultural values are obviously morally inferiour to those of most western countries. It is no problem comparing different values and point out which are better or not, objectively.

Please explain to me how you can 'objectively' judge a culture. What you are saying sounds like some kind of cultural fascism.

Baxx wrote:
It is not easy being homosexual in Russia today. Look at the sheer madness Stephen Fry faces:

Being homosexual is not easy in Russia today. That is very true. But being homosexual has long been hard in Russia, it did not just start in the Russian Federation.
Russia's cultural intolerance towards homosexuality is something that slowly has evolved over time since the Middle Ages. Medieval Russia used to be highly tolerant of homosexuality, but this official tolerance ended when Peter the Great outlawed it because ironically, he wanted to westernise Russia and thus followed the West's example in this (funny no, how cultural values change?). After this intolerance and persecution of homosexuals started to increase, but it never really picked up steam until Stalin cracked down on them. So historically, Russia has actually been rather tolerant of homosexuality, but the Soviet period, with its cultural conservatism, saw a massive rise in homophobia. This homophobia became so widespread that it became an integral part of modern Russian identity, which is extremely conservative.
You could say Russia has experienced exactly the reverse development from the West. Instead of growing from intolerance towards tolerance, Russia grew from tolerance to intolerance.


What Stephen Fry faces is not madness. He faces Vitaly Milonov, a man with a vastly different history, culture and values, known for his zealous persecution of homosexuals. Milonov is a highly conservative christian, and his religion is of paramount importance to him. Just look at all the icons, Bibles, model churches and other religious stuff in his office. The guy even has a portrait of the Patriarch hanging on the wall behind him! In Milonov's religion, homosexuality is one of the greatest sins there is. Because of this, Milonov views homosexuality as one of the greatest dangers to mankind, and he has made it his mission to safe Russia's children from eternal damnation by shielding them from this great sin. He is not mad. In fact he is very intelligent and perfectly reasonable. He just follows a completely different line of logic than you do. Not all humans think and reason in the same way, and culture and ubringing has massive influence on what a person sees as logical and on how he thinks and acts. And Milonov is far from alone in Russia. A large majority shares his point of view, albeit somewhat more moderately.
And now tell me, why is your point of view objectively superior to the point of view of all those others?

Baxx wrote:
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 AegisGrimm wrote:
Every major society is either currently a bunch of psychos, or has been in their history.
.

The difference today is that those psychos have modern weapons, can start war and launch nuclear weapons. Which gives greater need for action against psychos today than previously.

And also requires a lot more caution. It is hard to take action against someone who has so much power he could destroy the world if he would like to.
When dealing with Russia, you should leave the stick at home. Use a big juicy carrot instead. That will work. Bringing a stick will just result in Russia coming at you with a bigger stick.

 whembly wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The West really shouldn't do anything but to keep quiet and mind it's own business. The West interfering in Russia's internal affairs will only make things worse because to the people it will confirm what the radical nationalists say and empower them.
We don't want the Liberal Democrats getting any more votes.

The west has no business standing up against violations of human rights!

Could you be any bigger of an apologist? Seriously?

Guantanamo.

British Colonial Days...

Wanna play this game?

Yes.

British Colonialism ended decades ago, long before the introduction of human rights into British Law and psyche.Guantanamo Bay still exists today, in violation of American and international law.

So it's not a valid retort. Apples and oranges mate. You could have mentioned Britain's support of American rendition and torture programs...


And you're missing the point entirely. It's hypocritical of us to bleat about human rights in Russia, when we're still drowning unconvicted terror suspects in Cuba.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

And you're missing the point entirely. It's hypocritical of us to bleat about human rights in Russia, when we're still drowning unconvicted terror suspects in Cuba.

Nah... you're just trying to stay on that "high horse" mang...

We're a country that'll now drone your ass... and we'd do it to our own citizen (much to my dismay).

*fwiw: we ain't *still* drowning gitmo folks. I believe Obama put a stop to that.

Anyhoo... hypocritical or not, evil men doing evil things does so when good men stays quiet.

"Good Guys"? Nice one

I'm not the one on the high horse here...

 Iron_Captain wrote:
He faces Vitaly Milonov, a man with a vastly different history, culture and values, known for his zealous persecution of homosexuals. Milonov is a highly conservative christian, and his religion is of paramount importance to him. Just look at all the icons, Bibles, model churches and other religious stuff in his office. The guy even has a portrait of the Patriarch hanging on the wall behind him!

See, I have loads of Gundam models but I don't zealously follow the principles of Char Aznable.

So, yeah, it is madness.

 Medium of Death wrote:

You don't have to like something to tolerate it. Not liking something doesn't make you a bigot.

Agreed. I intended to place a "not" in there, but skipped over it when typing.

 Sigvatr wrote:

*backs away slowly*

Don't break eye contact, I hear that makes us go crazy.

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
He faces Vitaly Milonov, a man with a vastly different history, culture and values, known for his zealous persecution of homosexuals. Milonov is a highly conservative christian, and his religion is of paramount importance to him. Just look at all the icons, Bibles, model churches and other religious stuff in his office. The guy even has a portrait of the Patriarch hanging on the wall behind him!

See, I have loads of Gundam models but I don't zealously follow the principles of Char Aznable.

So, yeah, it is madness.

He's clearly a buffoon just like strongly homophobic people in our own counties, unfortunately he has influence in running it. He's not highly intelligent and reasonable, because he spouts total nonsense that isn't evidence based. It's not just a different but equally valid logic as Iron Captain argues. The guy is just wrong and saying stuff that doesn't stand up under any 'logic' other than that coming from a very conservative reading of a holy book. If you're just going to legislate based on scripture instead of looking at the facts and evidence of actual threat, then you're no better than the loonies running counties in the Middle East that imprison people for dancing in the street. Well I suppose Russia did imprison people for dancing in a church, so they aren't far off.

All this thread is confirming is that Bronze Age religions are incompatible with thinking, compassionate human beings, amongst other things.

 whembly wrote:

Anyhoo... hypocritical or not, evil men doing evil things does so when good men stays quiet.

Fortunately the world is not that simple.

 AegisGrimm wrote:


Why? I'm just saying that no one gets to sling mud on that particular argument. Hell, it's one of the causes many cultures aren't around anymore.

I'm not even getting there. If you're comparing NA pilgrims / founding fathers to modern ("modern") Russia, then this is gonna be a fruitless endavour.