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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cadia(help)

 ThePrimordial wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
 ThePrimordial wrote:

He has by far the best feats strength and toughness wise. >That's not debatable.


Wha...?!?

It is absolutely debatable!

It is all a matter of...perspective.

Has another primarchs not only supported the weight of a Titan but resisted its attempts to crush him, while all kinds of messed up?
I'm telling you those are the biggest numbers thrown up by a primarch.


You're right that we don't have as obvious an example in the HH books to refer to(save Vulkan snapping the chains in Curze's trap), but I think this holds the other Primarchs up rather than elevates Angron above them.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





For those of you that remarked on Guilliman almost getting killed by a Bolt, he was shot in the face twice, his body took dozens of hits, AND he was stabbed in the back by a Gladiusthat penetrated up to the hilt, and all of the rounds that he was shot with were explosive Bolts. That's pretty damn tough that he survived at all, let alone making a full recovery.

To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.

We must all join the Kroot-startes... 
   
Made in us
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Noctis Labyrinthus

Generally portrayed as extremely powerful, but it varies according to writer, with some consistency being shown with who writes Primarchs at any given level of power.

I find that Graham McNeill generally writes the most powerful Primarchs. His Primarchs are capable of toppling mountains (Angron in False Gods, Magnus cites doing so while sparring with his brothers in A Thousand Sons). Aaron Dembski-Bowden is a bit inconsistent, with some showings having his Primarchs approaching McNeill tiers of power, but many showings being considerably less. I'd attribute this to ADB's lack of consistency personally. For example, in The First Heretic he writes Corax as being capable of withstanding a lascannon to the chest with no injury. In Betrayer, Lorgar's hand is destroyed by a single bolter round. Dan Abnett, on the other hand, tends to write his Primarchs as being somewhat weaker than average, though still far more formidable than a Space Marine. Horus, for example, took only a superficial wound to the arm from an Interex bowcaster. These same weapons punched through two Space Marines and impaled the wall behind them.

For specific feats when talking about Primarchs, it is important to distinguish between feats performed physically and those that were performed with psychic powers. Magnus, for example, has devastated entire worlds with his sorcery, and has showings far above any of his brothers when drawing on such powers. Even Lorgar, generally thought of as one of the weakest Primarchs, was easily able to subdue Angron with sorcery (enuncia, specifically) and could even telepathically dominate Horus. Sorcery really does appear to be the one thing capable of reliably downing a Primarch (along with powerful Daemons), with Kor Phaeron actually managing to defeat Roboute Guilliman in Know No Fear.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 ThePrimordial wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
 ThePrimordial wrote:

He has by far the best feats strength and toughness wise. >That's not debatable.


Wha...?!?

It is absolutely debatable!

It is all a matter of...perspective.

Has another primarchs not only supported the weight of a Titan but resisted its attempts to crush him, while all kinds of messed up?
I'm telling you those are the biggest numbers thrown up by a primarch.


Yes but that doesn't mean he's the strongest nor the toughest. The HH series is not a DC or Marvel serie, whe doesn't have tens or even hundreds of feat for every character to compare them.
   
Made in gb
Humorless Arbite





Hull

 Shidank wrote:

I assume the Lion is kept asleep because even the Watchers don't want him in charge. Don't get me wrong, the Lion is my favorite Primarch, but even I can recognize he would sacrifice 90% of mankind if it meant all of our enemies were killed with them. That kind of guy needs a check and balance.


I'd accept that trade.
Kill 90% of our own population to kill 100% of our enemies? That's just a golden deal. Our species would effectively be guaranteed to survive at that point simply because the 10% would regrow the numbers over time and would have no enemies to kill them off.

To put that in perspective, in a 1v1 duel to death, would you rather -
1. Take grievous wounds and be hospitalized for a while, but you will survive and your opponent will be dead. 100% chance of living.
2. Choose not to take the wounds at that time and fight on, not knowing whether or not you'll win in the long run. Unknown chance of living.


   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





 Otto Weston wrote:
 Shidank wrote:

I assume the Lion is kept asleep because even the Watchers don't want him in charge. Don't get me wrong, the Lion is my favorite Primarch, but even I can recognize he would sacrifice 90% of mankind if it meant all of our enemies were killed with them. That kind of guy needs a check and balance.


I'd accept that trade.
Kill 90% of our own population to kill 100% of our enemies? That's just a golden deal. Our species would effectively be guaranteed to survive at that point simply because the 10% would regrow the numbers over time and would have no enemies to kill them off.

To put that in perspective, in a 1v1 duel to death, would you rather -
1. Take grievous wounds and be hospitalized for a while, but you will survive and your opponent will be dead. 100% chance of living.
2. Choose not to take the wounds at that time and fight on, not knowing whether or not you'll win in the long run. Unknown chance of living.


And that's why you're not in charge of humanity when the aliens invade

To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.

We must all join the Kroot-startes... 
   
Made in id
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Indonesia

 j31c3n wrote:
 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Has anyone playtested the Primarchs with the Forgeworld HH rules (as far as they have been revealed in the Isstvaan trilogy) to this point? Who comes out on top?


Horus without a shadow of a doubt. Lorgar used correctly is a solid #2 on the tabletop, because he can just pick his powers (and you should pick Invisibility of course). Angron is basically tied for #2 with Lorgar, but is many times easier to use (assuming you can get him to assault). Perturabo is immensely powerful as well. I'd put him in the crowded #2 slot with Lorgar and Angron, especially if you give him Forgebreaker. Fulgrim hits like a trainwreck with Fireblade. Vulkan is nearly unkillable (and is amusingly completely immune to plasma weapons).

Amusing how the wreckingest Primarchs are traitors.


Thanks man. Has anyone seen the new Forge World book yet? Does it have Ultramarines in it? (Or is that the still-to-arrive next one?) I would be curious to see how Guilliman looks, and then I am definitely interested to find out about Sanguinius. In "Fear to Tread" (and maybe elsewhere too?) it indicates that Sanguinius would be a major threat to Horus in a fight. Before he gets all Chaos-ed up, of course... And plus we know the outcome, so apparently not.

Anyway, the Khan sounds like he could kick butt too--a swordsman to rival Fulgrim, according to "Scars." I'm kind of disappointed they only have "Alpharius" in the book, not both twins--it would have been cool to have two models. Since there are two of them, after all.

Anyway, getting back to the OP, I think all of them have a common starting point, with the "Primarch" special rule, which includes "It will not die" and "Eternal Warrior." So think they are at least trying go get across the idea that all of the Primarchs are tough as nails. Unless they get stabbed with a magic fork, like Vulkan, evidently.

By the way, Lion el'Jonson rumors and Cypher and the 13th Crusade get me really excited. I am super keen for them to bring some of these Characters back to life. Some are dead, dead, dead (Horus included, it might be noted, which is pretty significant!) but a lot of the others could still be called back for a final battle (or new game context).

5000 pts High Elves 4000 pts, Warriors of Chaos 4000 pts, Dwarfs 3000 pts, Wood Elves and Greenskins too


Thought for the ages: What is the Riddle of Steel? 
   
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I think they could even weasel and retcon a plausible resurrection for characters like Ferrus or Sanguinius (especially the latter, considering the Sanguinor already existing).

But that's probably just my inner Iron Hands fanboy showing.

   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
 j31c3n wrote:
 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Has anyone playtested the Primarchs with the Forgeworld HH rules (as far as they have been revealed in the Isstvaan trilogy) to this point? Who comes out on top?


Horus without a shadow of a doubt. Lorgar used correctly is a solid #2 on the tabletop, because he can just pick his powers (and you should pick Invisibility of course). Angron is basically tied for #2 with Lorgar, but is many times easier to use (assuming you can get him to assault). Perturabo is immensely powerful as well. I'd put him in the crowded #2 slot with Lorgar and Angron, especially if you give him Forgebreaker. Fulgrim hits like a trainwreck with Fireblade. Vulkan is nearly unkillable (and is amusingly completely immune to plasma weapons).

Amusing how the wreckingest Primarchs are traitors.


Thanks man. Has anyone seen the new Forge World book yet? Does it have Ultramarines in it? (Or is that the still-to-arrive next one?) I would be curious to see how Guilliman looks, and then I am definitely interested to find out about Sanguinius. In "Fear to Tread" (and maybe elsewhere too?) it indicates that Sanguinius would be a major threat to Horus in a fight. Before he gets all Chaos-ed up, of course... And plus we know the outcome, so apparently not.

Anyway, the Khan sounds like he could kick butt too--a swordsman to rival Fulgrim, according to "Scars." I'm kind of disappointed they only have "Alpharius" in the book, not both twins--it would have been cool to have two models. Since there are two of them, after all.

Anyway, getting back to the OP, I think all of them have a common starting point, with the "Primarch" special rule, which includes "It will not die" and "Eternal Warrior." So think they are at least trying go get across the idea that all of the Primarchs are tough as nails. Unless they get stabbed with a magic fork, like Vulkan, evidently.

By the way, Lion el'Jonson rumors and Cypher and the 13th Crusade get me really excited. I am super keen for them to bring some of these Characters back to life. Some are dead, dead, dead (Horus included, it might be noted, which is pretty significant!) but a lot of the others could still be called back for a final battle (or new game context).


Book V due in May has the Ultramarines. I'm looking forward to seeing what FW do with the Scars too. In terms of Omegon, the way the FW books are written, they're more like a history book about the Heresy. Omegon was not common knowledge, no one outside the AL really knew he existed, so it makes sense that he isn't talked about. There's hints and rumours that 'the Alpha Legion sometimes even appear to have more than one Primarch' and stuff, and Exodus COULD be Omegon; he has a pretty beefy stat line and IWND special rule.
   
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Reading, UK

 j31c3n wrote:
I think they could even weasel and retcon a plausible resurrection for characters like Ferrus or Sanguinius (especially the latter, considering the Sanguinor already existing).

But that's probably just my inner Iron Hands fanboy showing.


Ferrus Manus does

Spoiler:
Get resurrected, numerous times in fact, by Fabius. But then killed again. He might get to come back for good later in the series, who knows!

No pity, no remorse, no shoes 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Pilau Rice wrote:
 j31c3n wrote:
I think they could even weasel and retcon a plausible resurrection for characters like Ferrus or Sanguinius (especially the latter, considering the Sanguinor already existing).

But that's probably just my inner Iron Hands fanboy showing.


Ferrus Manus does

Spoiler:
Get resurrected, numerous times in fact, by Fabius. But then killed again. He might get to come back for good later in the series, who knows!



If this keeps up, 40K will be just as bad as Marvel.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in gr
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh






Reading, UK

Well, it's not unheard of in 40k is it. After the Heresy

Spoiler:
Horus was cloned numerous times as well.


So he had to practice somewhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/27 09:21:48


No pity, no remorse, no shoes 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 ImAGeek wrote:
 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
 j31c3n wrote:
 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Has anyone playtested the Primarchs with the Forgeworld HH rules (as far as they have been revealed in the Isstvaan trilogy) to this point? Who comes out on top?


Horus without a shadow of a doubt. Lorgar used correctly is a solid #2 on the tabletop, because he can just pick his powers (and you should pick Invisibility of course). Angron is basically tied for #2 with Lorgar, but is many times easier to use (assuming you can get him to assault). Perturabo is immensely powerful as well. I'd put him in the crowded #2 slot with Lorgar and Angron, especially if you give him Forgebreaker. Fulgrim hits like a trainwreck with Fireblade. Vulkan is nearly unkillable (and is amusingly completely immune to plasma weapons).

Amusing how the wreckingest Primarchs are traitors.


Thanks man. Has anyone seen the new Forge World book yet? Does it have Ultramarines in it? (Or is that the still-to-arrive next one?) I would be curious to see how Guilliman looks, and then I am definitely interested to find out about Sanguinius. In "Fear to Tread" (and maybe elsewhere too?) it indicates that Sanguinius would be a major threat to Horus in a fight. Before he gets all Chaos-ed up, of course... And plus we know the outcome, so apparently not.

Anyway, the Khan sounds like he could kick butt too--a swordsman to rival Fulgrim, according to "Scars." I'm kind of disappointed they only have "Alpharius" in the book, not both twins--it would have been cool to have two models. Since there are two of them, after all.

Anyway, getting back to the OP, I think all of them have a common starting point, with the "Primarch" special rule, which includes "It will not die" and "Eternal Warrior." So think they are at least trying go get across the idea that all of the Primarchs are tough as nails. Unless they get stabbed with a magic fork, like Vulkan, evidently.

By the way, Lion el'Jonson rumors and Cypher and the 13th Crusade get me really excited. I am super keen for them to bring some of these Characters back to life. Some are dead, dead, dead (Horus included, it might be noted, which is pretty significant!) but a lot of the others could still be called back for a final battle (or new game context).


Book V due in May has the Ultramarines. I'm looking forward to seeing what FW do with the Scars too. In terms of Omegon, the way the FW books are written, they're more like a history book about the Heresy. Omegon was not common knowledge, no one outside the AL really knew he existed, so it makes sense that he isn't talked about. There's hints and rumours that 'the Alpha Legion sometimes even appear to have more than one Primarch' and stuff, and Exodus COULD be Omegon; he has a pretty beefy stat line and IWND special rule.


Well Exodus statline is similar to a Praetor's, while Alpharius has S6/T6 etc. It wouldn't make sense if Exodus was Omegon to be that inferior to his brother.
   
Made in us
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Cadia(help)

 dusara217 wrote:
 Otto Weston wrote:
 Shidank wrote:

I assume the Lion is kept asleep because even the Watchers don't want him in charge. Don't get me wrong, the Lion is my favorite Primarch, but even I can recognize he would sacrifice 90% of mankind if it meant all of our enemies were killed with them. That kind of guy needs a check and balance.


I'd accept that trade.
Kill 90% of our own population to kill 100% of our enemies? That's just a golden deal. Our species would effectively be guaranteed to survive at that point simply because the 10% would regrow the numbers over time and would have no enemies to kill them off.

To put that in perspective, in a 1v1 duel to death, would you rather -
1. Take grievous wounds and be hospitalized for a while, but you will survive and your opponent will be dead. 100% chance of living.
2. Choose not to take the wounds at that time and fight on, not knowing whether or not you'll win in the long run. Unknown chance of living.


And that's why you're not in charge of humanity when the aliens invade


Reasonably, any pragmatic person would. The problem would be that the Lion could absolutely live with those losses.
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

Engrenages wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
 j31c3n wrote:
 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Has anyone playtested the Primarchs with the Forgeworld HH rules (as far as they have been revealed in the Isstvaan trilogy) to this point? Who comes out on top?


Horus without a shadow of a doubt. Lorgar used correctly is a solid #2 on the tabletop, because he can just pick his powers (and you should pick Invisibility of course). Angron is basically tied for #2 with Lorgar, but is many times easier to use (assuming you can get him to assault). Perturabo is immensely powerful as well. I'd put him in the crowded #2 slot with Lorgar and Angron, especially if you give him Forgebreaker. Fulgrim hits like a trainwreck with Fireblade. Vulkan is nearly unkillable (and is amusingly completely immune to plasma weapons).

Amusing how the wreckingest Primarchs are traitors.


Thanks man. Has anyone seen the new Forge World book yet? Does it have Ultramarines in it? (Or is that the still-to-arrive next one?) I would be curious to see how Guilliman looks, and then I am definitely interested to find out about Sanguinius. In "Fear to Tread" (and maybe elsewhere too?) it indicates that Sanguinius would be a major threat to Horus in a fight. Before he gets all Chaos-ed up, of course... And plus we know the outcome, so apparently not.

Anyway, the Khan sounds like he could kick butt too--a swordsman to rival Fulgrim, according to "Scars." I'm kind of disappointed they only have "Alpharius" in the book, not both twins--it would have been cool to have two models. Since there are two of them, after all.

Anyway, getting back to the OP, I think all of them have a common starting point, with the "Primarch" special rule, which includes "It will not die" and "Eternal Warrior." So think they are at least trying go get across the idea that all of the Primarchs are tough as nails. Unless they get stabbed with a magic fork, like Vulkan, evidently.

By the way, Lion el'Jonson rumors and Cypher and the 13th Crusade get me really excited. I am super keen for them to bring some of these Characters back to life. Some are dead, dead, dead (Horus included, it might be noted, which is pretty significant!) but a lot of the others could still be called back for a final battle (or new game context).


Book V due in May has the Ultramarines. I'm looking forward to seeing what FW do with the Scars too. In terms of Omegon, the way the FW books are written, they're more like a history book about the Heresy. Omegon was not common knowledge, no one outside the AL really knew he existed, so it makes sense that he isn't talked about. There's hints and rumours that 'the Alpha Legion sometimes even appear to have more than one Primarch' and stuff, and Exodus COULD be Omegon; he has a pretty beefy stat line and IWND special rule.


Well Exodus statline is similar to a Praetor's, while Alpharius has S6/T6 etc. It wouldn't make sense if Exodus was Omegon to be that inferior to his brother.


Well I said could be he has IWND, that was the main thing. More his story hints to it a little too, I think it mentions the Effrit Stealth Squad that Omegon is the leader of. Iirc.
   
Made in gb
Humorless Arbite





Hull

 Shidank wrote:
 dusara217 wrote:
 Otto Weston wrote:
 Shidank wrote:

I assume the Lion is kept asleep because even the Watchers don't want him in charge. Don't get me wrong, the Lion is my favorite Primarch, but even I can recognize he would sacrifice 90% of mankind if it meant all of our enemies were killed with them. That kind of guy needs a check and balance.


I'd accept that trade.
Kill 90% of our own population to kill 100% of our enemies? That's just a golden deal. Our species would effectively be guaranteed to survive at that point simply because the 10% would regrow the numbers over time and would have no enemies to kill them off.

To put that in perspective, in a 1v1 duel to death, would you rather -
1. Take grievous wounds and be hospitalized for a while, but you will survive and your opponent will be dead. 100% chance of living.
2. Choose not to take the wounds at that time and fight on, not knowing whether or not you'll win in the long run. Unknown chance of living.


And that's why you're not in charge of humanity when the aliens invade


Reasonably, any pragmatic person would. The problem would be that the Lion could absolutely live with those losses.


Now that's a qualifier I can accept. After making that decision I'd have to live with it forever but the Lion wouldn't bat an eyelid.

   
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Cadia(help)

And this is why the Lion made many people uneasy.
   
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Indonesia

Thanks @Imageek--I look forward to seeing the new book in May too then! That's not even that far away...

@Engrenages, that's really interesting about Exodus. Very cool, too--not being sure fits right in with the idea and ethos of Alpha Legion.

Eventually, I am assuming they will do the Emperor and the Custodes and Null Maidens and stuff--I am interested to see how the Emperor's Stat Line works out. Has to be good enough to kill Horus, but weak enough to still basically be killed. And Custodes...will they be superior to regular Space Marines?

How about Thunder Warriors? I just finished reading the HH novel "Outcast Dead" and that Thunder Lord sounded pretty bad a**.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/03 08:23:53


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Thought for the ages: What is the Riddle of Steel? 
   
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Hull

Thunder Lords are awesome. Bigger, stronger and better than Astartes but they basically only live as long as humans. I guess he had to tone them down to give them longevity and create Astartes.

   
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Gosport, UK

 Otto Weston wrote:
Thunder Lords are awesome. Bigger, stronger and better than Astartes but they basically only live as long as humans. I guess he had to tone them down to give them longevity and create Astartes.


They were very unstable too and kindof insane. Much more brutal than even the Space Marines are.
   
Made in gb
Humorless Arbite





Hull

 ImAGeek wrote:
 Otto Weston wrote:
Thunder Lords are awesome. Bigger, stronger and better than Astartes but they basically only live as long as humans. I guess he had to tone them down to give them longevity and create Astartes.


They were very unstable too and kindof insane. Much more brutal than even the Space Marines are.


The way I saw it, they were only more brutal because of their training and indoctrination. They had their own honour and their own code, if they had been brought up with Astartes ideals I believe they would have been fine in that regard. From what I've read of the Thunder Warriors though, I don't believe they were unstable or insane - they were simply the wrong tool for the job because they didn't have the longevity to conquer the stars as the Emperor needed.

   
Made in us
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 Otto Weston wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 Otto Weston wrote:
Thunder Lords are awesome. Bigger, stronger and better than Astartes but they basically only live as long as humans. I guess he had to tone them down to give them longevity and create Astartes.


They were very unstable too and kindof insane. Much more brutal than even the Space Marines are.


The way I saw it, they were only more brutal because of their training and indoctrination. They had their own honour and their own code, if they had been brought up with Astartes ideals I believe they would have been fine in that regard. From what I've read of the Thunder Warriors though, I don't believe they were unstable or insane - they were simply the wrong tool for the job because they didn't have the longevity to conquer the stars as the Emperor needed.


I didn't mean unstable mentally, I meant their genetic make up was unstable. They burnt out, developed cancers etc.
   
Made in gb
Humorless Arbite





Hull

 ImAGeek wrote:
 Otto Weston wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 Otto Weston wrote:
Thunder Lords are awesome. Bigger, stronger and better than Astartes but they basically only live as long as humans. I guess he had to tone them down to give them longevity and create Astartes.


They were very unstable too and kindof insane. Much more brutal than even the Space Marines are.


The way I saw it, they were only more brutal because of their training and indoctrination. They had their own honour and their own code, if they had been brought up with Astartes ideals I believe they would have been fine in that regard. From what I've read of the Thunder Warriors though, I don't believe they were unstable or insane - they were simply the wrong tool for the job because they didn't have the longevity to conquer the stars as the Emperor needed.


I didn't mean unstable mentally, I meant their genetic make up was unstable. They burnt out, developed cancers etc.


Ah okay, in that I agree. They were basically humans and suffered human problems but they had been enhanced to have strength and toughness even beyond that of an Astartes. It appears the Emperor had to sacrifice some of the strength and toughness in order to have a more stable platform, one that had the capability to last long enough to take war to the galaxy.

   
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Indonesia

Thanks for the responses. It is interesting that the HH books are bringing them back into the story at least to some degree, and if only to bring us around to that unanswered question: "what was the intended purpose for the Primarchs or Astartes after the Crusade?" I guess we'll never know, but it's clear that the Thunder Warriors were indeed the wrong tool for the Grimdark 40k job that the Space Marine chapters do.

5000 pts High Elves 4000 pts, Warriors of Chaos 4000 pts, Dwarfs 3000 pts, Wood Elves and Greenskins too


Thought for the ages: What is the Riddle of Steel? 
   
 
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