Shidank wrote:
Let's calm down a bit on the weapons, please.

How are we on determining how much of a Primarch's durability is based on their connection to the warp?

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Let's calm down a bit on the weapons, please.

How are we on determining how much of a Primarch's durability is based on their connection to the warp?

Most of isn't a connection.
The vast star of energy the primarchs draw from is their own.
Psychic primarchs (most of them to some extent) obviously have an ability to draw further power.
But with Angron (the most physically powerful primarchs) who isn't a psyker I always got the feeling he simply has a much larger pool to draw from.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Let's calm down a bit on the weapons, please.

How are we on determining how much of a Primarch's durability is based on their connection to the warp?

Most of it isn't a connection.
The vast star of energy the primarchs draw from is their own.
Psychic primarchs (most of the primarchs are psykers to some extent) obviously have an ability to draw further power.
But with Angron (the most physically powerful primarch) who isn't a psyker I always got the feeling he simply has a much larger pool to draw from.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Angron is actually one of the smallest Primarchs, iirc.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Let's calm down a bit on the weapons, please.

How are we on determining how much of a Primarch's durability is based on their connection to the warp?

Most of it isn't a connection.
The vast star of energy the primarchs draw from is their own.
Psychic primarchs (most of the primarchs are psykers to some extent) obviously have an ability to draw further power.
But with Angron (the most physically powerful primarch) who isn't a psyker I always got the feeling he simply has a much larger pool to draw from.

 Manchu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Angron is actually one of the smallest Primarchs, iirc.

D'awwww Angwon da Wittlest Pwimarch. He so angwy! :3

 ImAGeek wrote:
The epitome of small man syndrome.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Let's calm down a bit on the weapons, please.

How are we on determining how much of a Primarch's durability is based on their connection to the warp?

Most of it isn't a connection.
The vast star of energy the primarchs draw from is their own.
Psychic primarchs (most of the primarchs are psykers to some extent) obviously have an ability to draw further power.
But with Angron (the most physically powerful primarch) who isn't a psyker I always got the feeling he simply has a much larger pool to draw from.

I still don't understand what this 'Star Energy' is, or why it makes them so resilient. Someone mentioned Corax tanking a Las-Cannon shot, did he have armour on? If not, then how did he survive? Is there skin literately that tough? If a Vindicare assassin shot a Primarch dead in the eye ball what would happen? I mean would it re-grow or would it not even phase him?

I wish primarch's made more sense, some Primarch's are fine while others have feats riding on ridiculous, it makes there characters seem rather dull.

 Formosa wrote:

david choe wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

david choe wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except Primarch armor is more or less superficial then truly functional. Corax, Angron, Fulgrim, etc all wade through fire without giving a damn, and are able to tank the blows of each other (which rip apart tanks and space marines) and only receive mild bruising of the flesh. Plus every single weapon that has killed a Primarch has been either supernatural or outright ignores durability. Curze, Sanguinius, Manus, and Horus all fell to such weapons.

Also, excuse me as I laugh my ass off at any idea of 40K being remotely "realistic" and not blatant fantasy. The very concept of space marines and melee even existing is firmly centered in fantasy.

The way I like to think of it is that after millenia of ballistic warfare beings the primary means of killing people, ballistic armour evolved to the point that melee became viable again, since bullets and lasers were barely doing diddly squat.

Except not only is that clearly not the case, but armor evolving would not suddenly bring back melee weapons, it would make them MORE ineffective, because they would generate less kinetic energy then a gun. Suddenly having better armor doesn't mean swords come back, it means people start using bigger guns with more efficient ammo loads at penning targets.... like what happens in real life. Especially chainweapons, which are fething stupid in absolutely every way and have no right to penetrate armor at all. Were your theory true, nothing besides power weapons would exist in 40K, except even that wouldn't make sense, as there's still plasma guns, meltas, grav guns, railguns, gauss guns, etc.

By that logic, tanks would be ramming each other opposed to developing HEAT and Sabot rounds and increasing cannon sizes to 100mm+ as armor advanced over WWII and simple solid slugs no longer did the job. Or early firearms would have been completely abandoned due to their inability to penetrate fully armored Chevaliers instead of adding more gunpowder.

"Armor advanced to such a degree" is an idiotic excuse that does not work at all in practice. If armor truly advanced to such a degree, then no weapons would work, because melee is even further lacking the kinetic energy of bullets, or the raw thermal energy of lasers and plasma. And that's clearly not the case at all in 40K. Hell, people in 40k can regularly carry weapons the size of a rifle that can melt an MBT down to a warped pile of scrap metal.

40K is pure fantasy. There's no form of logic to get around this. It has always been just Warhammer Fantasy in Space, and are best could be called a fantasy space opera or "science fantasy", although that word combination is of itself an oxymoron.

and what if that armour advanced to the point that even advanced weaponry could not dent it, or advanced at a pace that ranged weaponry could not match, theoretically speaking this could warrant a kind of come back of weapons that are designed to be used at extreme short range to punch through this armour, or close combat weapons to take advantage of weak points that ranged weapons don't have the accuracy to hit.

there is also the shock factor to consider, its pretty awful seeing your mates blown apart next to you, its even worse to see that your weapons are doing nothing and the armoured behemoth is now punching people to death, it also clears out buildings etc much faster knowing that the enemy cannot effectively hurt you and they know the same.

just because in our current age such things are "impossible" and "stupid" doesn't mean that it cant and wont happen, go back to the 1800's and tell someone that we will be able to destroy cities from the other side of the planet with flying machines and wars will be fought with giant metal boxes that are immune to rifles, you would be laughed at.

This. Such armour that would be almost immune to any kind of small arms fire would be exceedingly expensive and only used by the specialist of Special Forces (see: Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Inquisition). In my headcanon, Power Armour is immune to everything but Plasma and similar weaponry, which can be deflected by Terminator and Artificer Armour. Why? Because technology and alloys have advanced to the point that only the hottest of materials can weaken them enough to be penetrated (It's been forty fething thousand years, look at how far we've come in just the last 500, and you think that's impossible?). And this is now why we have assault marines and the like, because a.) psychological effect of seeing a monster smashing an entire squad without taking a scratch using a friggin knife and b.) The only way to penetrate this armour is at extremely close range, where the accuracy necessary to hit those joints and other weak spots is available.

What a stupid logic....anything that close combat can do... Range can do better. If you were to suggest that special diamond tip chain sword can cut armor...then they can make a saw weapon with the same diamond tip that can shoot out like a catapult....

Human muscle can't never beat ballistic projectile....strength

Unless it is something like Dune shield...where fast moving will be block out....so slow hand held knife can penitrate THe shield....oh wait..they even have slow bullet or missile thAtteavel so slow that it can penetrate the shield.

When you travel to the future can you bring me the lottery numbers, as you clearly know everything that can possibly happen, must be quite the gift.

We know that NOW with our current understanding that it is silly, what we don't know is what could happen, how can we?

in a thousand years time ballistic tech might be utterly obsolete, personal weaponry might become the norm and then the future version of you might pop on the future version bof dakka and say "don't be stupid, why would we use guns when we have the butter knife 5000 and we can melt armour with that better than some guns, stupid newbs"

Dude, the point is anything that is powerful as a hand weapon, you can launch it as a missile weapon.

Example...in Star War. light saber... a hand held laser sword. Guess what... you have laser blaster.

A powersword is like a Plasma gun or a Meltagun....

You don't get it. Once your tech base pass using your muscle... hand held weapons is never as powerful as range because why get close when you can shoot. If your armor is so tough... you need a sword to open up.. think of that logic. A bomb or grenade or a powerful gun can't crack it?

Just stop with this stupid argument...it is just a game and rule of cool wins. Don't defend the concept of rule of cool with your logic.. it just makes it dumb and annoying.

And if the sword that doesn't need any extra kinetic force or ammunition is better at cutting amour I.e power sword or light saber, then you can warrant using close combat, if you have 2 weapons that can penetrate armour and one is a gun, then sure use that, and keep the sword as back up, if the gun can't do it and your sword can, use that, use the tools you have, not the make believe idea you have that "cos guns exist, close combat is stupid" tell you what, go shoot a tank with your m4, come back to me and tell me what happens.

Your the one making the assumption that it will always be impossible for ballistic weapons to beat any armour, I'm saying you can't make that assumption, and I could be possible that cc would make a comeback if it proved to be more effective.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except Primarch armor is more or less superficial then truly functional. Corax, Angron, Fulgrim, etc all wade through fire without giving a damn, and are able to tank the blows of each other (which rip apart tanks and space marines) and only receive mild bruising of the flesh. Plus every single weapon that has killed a Primarch has been either supernatural or outright ignores durability. Curze, Sanguinius, Manus, and Horus all fell to such weapons.

Also, excuse me as I laugh my ass off at any idea of 40K being remotely "realistic" and not blatant fantasy. The very concept of space marines and melee even existing is firmly centered in fantasy.

The way I like to think of it is that after millenia of ballistic warfare beings the primary means of killing people, ballistic armour evolved to the point that melee became viable again, since bullets and lasers were barely doing diddly squat.

Except not only is that clearly not the case, but armor evolving would not suddenly bring back melee weapons, it would make them MORE ineffective, because they would generate less kinetic energy then a gun. Suddenly having better armor doesn't mean swords come back, it means people start using bigger guns with more efficient ammo loads at penning targets.... like what happens in real life. Especially chainweapons, which are fething stupid in absolutely every way and have no right to penetrate armor at all. Were your theory true, nothing besides power weapons would exist in 40K, except even that wouldn't make sense, as there's still plasma guns, meltas, grav guns, railguns, gauss guns, etc.

By that logic, tanks would be ramming each other opposed to developing HEAT and Sabot rounds and increasing cannon sizes to 100mm+ as armor advanced over WWII and simple solid slugs no longer did the job. Or early firearms would have been completely abandoned due to their inability to penetrate fully armored Chevaliers instead of adding more gunpowder.

"Armor advanced to such a degree" is an idiotic excuse that does not work at all in practice. If armor truly advanced to such a degree, then no weapons would work, because melee is even further lacking the kinetic energy of bullets, or the raw thermal energy of lasers and plasma. And that's clearly not the case at all in 40K. Hell, people in 40k can regularly carry weapons the size of a rifle that can melt an MBT down to a warped pile of scrap metal.

40K is pure fantasy. There's no form of logic to get around this. It has always been just Warhammer Fantasy in Space, and are best could be called a fantasy space opera or "science fantasy", although that word combination is of itself an oxymoron.

and what if that armour advanced to the point that even advanced weaponry could not dent it, or advanced at a pace that ranged weaponry could not match, theoretically speaking this could warrant a kind of come back of weapons that are designed to be used at extreme short range to punch through this armour, or close combat weapons to take advantage of weak points that ranged weapons don't have the accuracy to hit.

there is also the shock factor to consider, its pretty awful seeing your mates blown apart next to you, its even worse to see that your weapons are doing nothing and the armoured behemoth is now punching people to death, it also clears out buildings etc much faster knowing that the enemy cannot effectively hurt you and they know the same.

just because in our current age such things are "impossible" and "stupid" doesn't mean that it cant and wont happen, go back to the 1800's and tell someone that we will be able to destroy cities from the other side of the planet with flying machines and wars will be fought with giant metal boxes that are immune to rifles, you would be laughed at.

Except it's already happened. And it didn't result in weapon technology regressing, but surprise surprise, ballistic weaponry instead advanced to meet the new required conditions and made armor of the time obsolete. I also don't think you even understand exactly how hilarious your claims are, because we are never going to advance to a point where armor renders ballistic weapons almost obsolete- it merely leads to ranged weapons becoming more powerful. It doesn't matter if your armor stops something from penetrating- you merely develop a ballistic weapon that delivers enough concussive force to turn the person inside the armor into jelly. The strength of the armor merely further scales up the weapons used, possibly even to the level of the Davy Crockett.

No realistic force is ever going to return to using swords as a viable method of war. It doesn't matter if it's an effective terror weapon against enemy morale, or armor takes some "incredible" leap forward, melee warfare in a civilian on our level of tech or further is quite simply fething stupid- there's no other way to describe it. You may see the occasional melee charge bayonet charge once in a blue moon, but stuff like Assault Marines, the Black Templars, Khorne Zerkers, Orks, etc would never work. If 40K were truly realistic, with its level of technology, the Imperium would be defended by a self replicating swarm of Von Neumann drones armed with laser weapons capable of fighting in orbit and on the ground that drown everything in shear numbers and firepower. Hell combat in 40K shouldn't happen at all because a thing called orbital superiority exists.

And again, it's not immune to small arms fire. Literally every single goddamn faction in 40K has weapons that can be wielded by basic infantry that will turn anyone wearing power armor into a smoking piece of ash. Weapons that fire globs of plasma that burn at over twenty million degrees are not only usable by infantry, but COMMON. Not to mention that melee weapons wouldn't do jack gak against somebody wearing power armor unless they were hilariously strong or had something like a power weapon. Instead, chain weapons are among the most common weapons in the galaxy, despite being the singular dumbest, outright impossible weapon design in all of 40K.

You have to either be living under a rock or have some really straaaange view of warfare to think 40K makes even a lick of sense. Wake up you two. It doesn't. 40K is silly as feth and makes about as much sense as a turtle in an Abraham Lincoln costume riding on top of a unicycle. We're talking about the universe where TITANS and IMPERIAL KNIGHTS exist, when they should be instantly killed as soon as they're deployed by either a massive lance strike from orbit or several cruise missiles. 40K isn't realistic at all. It's Warhammer Fantasy set in space. It's how its started out and how it will always be unless it cuts almost all of the factions in the game.

If your armor is so good that it can tank plasma guns or bolters, melee weapons aren't doing jack gak. Ever heard of something called energy density? Yeah. A bolt is focusing a lot more energy into a much finer area then a chainsword or normal blade ever will. Seriously, are you even both self aware of how crazy the stuff you're saying is?

Engrenages wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Let's calm down a bit on the weapons, please.

How are we on determining how much of a Primarch's durability is based on their connection to the warp?

Most of it isn't a connection.
The vast star of energy the primarchs draw from is their own.
Psychic primarchs (most of the primarchs are psykers to some extent) obviously have an ability to draw further power.
But with Angron (the most physically powerful primarch) who isn't a psyker I always got the feeling he simply has a much larger pool to draw from.

I would argue at Angron being the most phisically powerful of the Primarchs. Fulgrim stated that Perturabo was the mightiest of them all in Angel Exterminatus. At the same time, Ferrus Manus is taller than most of them by a head and also described as being hugely powerful, and is said to be the only one able to match Mortarion endless brute force and toughess. In his turn, Vulkan is said to be physically peerless among his brothers. Almost every Primarch has had his own moment of glorious description, some more objective than others, so it may be difficult to draw a precise chart for them, especially when these pictures are drawn by different authors (who can have their own moment of fanboyism), but I don't think Angro can be referred as the most powerful of them, even though he is IMO the best blend of speed, strength and stamina of the primarchs, hence making him one of the most effective in battle, or even the most (even though that is also subject to controversy).

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Has anyone playtested the Primarchs with the Forgeworld HH rules (as far as they have been revealed in the Isstvaan trilogy) to this point? Who comes out on top?

Engrenages wrote:
Well I would put the psyker version of Lorgar at a definite #2 slot, with no contenders or ex aequo since there isn't much Angron nor Perturabo can do against him in close combat. But that's only talking "duel-wise" between Primarchs. If we're talking about leadership and army, Alpharius offers some damn interesting possibilities at recreating the Alpha Legion meme on the tabletop, while Lorgar makes your Word Bearers the most brave army in the game (outside fearless forces like tyranids) and Horus is what he is supposed to be, the Warmaster. So for me Horus and Lorgar are by far the best overall.

 j31c3n wrote:
Does Sanguinius even have rules out, yet?

Angron is an absolute beast, the only models that can touch him are Horus and Lorgar with the right psychic powers. And the only reason Lorgar is so good is because Invisibility is currently broken.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except Primarch armor is more or less superficial then truly functional. Corax, Angron, Fulgrim, etc all wade through fire without giving a damn, and are able to tank the blows of each other (which rip apart tanks and space marines) and only receive mild bruising of the flesh. Plus every single weapon that has killed a Primarch has been either supernatural or outright ignores durability. Curze, Sanguinius, Manus, and Horus all fell to such weapons.

Also, excuse me as I laugh my ass off at any idea of 40K being remotely "realistic" and not blatant fantasy. The very concept of space marines and melee even existing is firmly centered in fantasy.

The way I like to think of it is that after millenia of ballistic warfare beings the primary means of killing people, ballistic armour evolved to the point that melee became viable again, since bullets and lasers were barely doing diddly squat.

Except not only is that clearly not the case, but armor evolving would not suddenly bring back melee weapons, it would make them MORE ineffective, because they would generate less kinetic energy then a gun. Suddenly having better armor doesn't mean swords come back, it means people start using bigger guns with more efficient ammo loads at penning targets.... like what happens in real life. Especially chainweapons, which are fething stupid in absolutely every way and have no right to penetrate armor at all. Were your theory true, nothing besides power weapons would exist in 40K, except even that wouldn't make sense, as there's still plasma guns, meltas, grav guns, railguns, gauss guns, etc.

By that logic, tanks would be ramming each other opposed to developing HEAT and Sabot rounds and increasing cannon sizes to 100mm+ as armor advanced over WWII and simple solid slugs no longer did the job. Or early firearms would have been completely abandoned due to their inability to penetrate fully armored Chevaliers instead of adding more gunpowder.

"Armor advanced to such a degree" is an idiotic excuse that does not work at all in practice. If armor truly advanced to such a degree, then no weapons would work, because melee is even further lacking the kinetic energy of bullets, or the raw thermal energy of lasers and plasma. And that's clearly not the case at all in 40K. Hell, people in 40k can regularly carry weapons the size of a rifle that can melt an MBT down to a warped pile of scrap metal.

40K is pure fantasy. There's no form of logic to get around this. It has always been just Warhammer Fantasy in Space, and are best could be called a fantasy space opera or "science fantasy", although that word combination is of itself an oxymoron.

and what if that armour advanced to the point that even advanced weaponry could not dent it, or advanced at a pace that ranged weaponry could not match, theoretically speaking this could warrant a kind of come back of weapons that are designed to be used at extreme short range to punch through this armour, or close combat weapons to take advantage of weak points that ranged weapons don't have the accuracy to hit.

there is also the shock factor to consider, its pretty awful seeing your mates blown apart next to you, its even worse to see that your weapons are doing nothing and the armoured behemoth is now punching people to death, it also clears out buildings etc much faster knowing that the enemy cannot effectively hurt you and they know the same.

just because in our current age such things are "impossible" and "stupid" doesn't mean that it cant and wont happen, go back to the 1800's and tell someone that we will be able to destroy cities from the other side of the planet with flying machines and wars will be fought with giant metal boxes that are immune to rifles, you would be laughed at.

Except it's already happened. And it didn't result in weapon technology regressing, but surprise surprise, ballistic weaponry instead advanced to meet the new required conditions and made armor of the time obsolete. I also don't think you even understand exactly how hilarious your claims are, because we are never going to advance to a point where armor renders ballistic weapons almost obsolete- it merely leads to ranged weapons becoming more powerful. It doesn't matter if your armor stops something from penetrating- you merely develop a ballistic weapon that delivers enough concussive force to turn the person inside the armor into jelly. The strength of the armor merely further scales up the weapons used, possibly even to the level of the Davy Crockett.

No realistic force is ever going to return to using swords as a viable method of war. It doesn't matter if it's an effective terror weapon against enemy morale, or armor takes some "incredible" leap forward, melee warfare in a civilian on our level of tech or further is quite simply fething stupid- there's no other way to describe it. You may see the occasional melee charge bayonet charge once in a blue moon, but stuff like Assault Marines, the Black Templars, Khorne Zerkers, Orks, etc would never work. If 40K were truly realistic, with its level of technology, the Imperium would be defended by a self replicating swarm of Von Neumann drones armed with laser weapons capable of fighting in orbit and on the ground that drown everything in shear numbers and firepower. Hell combat in 40K shouldn't happen at all because a thing called orbital superiority exists.

And again, it's not immune to small arms fire. Literally every single goddamn faction in 40K has weapons that can be wielded by basic infantry that will turn anyone wearing power armor into a smoking piece of ash. Weapons that fire globs of plasma that burn at over twenty million degrees are not only usable by infantry, but COMMON. Not to mention that melee weapons wouldn't do jack gak against somebody wearing power armor unless they were hilariously strong or had something like a power weapon. Instead, chain weapons are among the most common weapons in the galaxy, despite being the singular dumbest, outright impossible weapon design in all of 40K.

You have to either be living under a rock or have some really straaaange view of warfare to think 40K makes even a lick of sense. Wake up you two. It doesn't. 40K is silly as feth and makes about as much sense as a turtle in an Abraham Lincoln costume riding on top of a unicycle. We're talking about the universe where TITANS and IMPERIAL KNIGHTS exist, when they should be instantly killed as soon as they're deployed by either a massive lance strike from orbit or several cruise missiles. 40K isn't realistic at all. It's Warhammer Fantasy set in space. It's how its started out and how it will always be unless it cuts almost all of the factions in the game.

If your armor is so good that it can tank plasma guns or bolters, melee weapons aren't doing jack gak. Ever heard of something called energy density? Yeah. A bolt is focusing a lot more energy into a much finer area then a chainsword or normal blade ever will. Seriously, are you even both self aware of how crazy the stuff you're saying is?

Honestly, the logic doesn't faze me. This kind of universe is entirely possible, even if it's in another dimension. Now, while I agree with much of what you say, the fact of the matter is that melee combat will NEVER become obsolete. Why?

Civilian world: knife fighting, club fighting, even sword fighting (see: cane with a sword in it) will always be prominent in civilian fighing as fights among civilians involve as much improvisation as possible (a stick, a sandbag, a jagged piece of metal, etc.), and a knife on your person makes winning a fight that much easier. A sword hidden inside of your cane that you use to make it not hurt to work will easily allow you to defeat an opponent who attacks you on the street with a knife or with fists.

Military world: melee combat actually happens all the damn time. You enter a building, turn a corner and come nose-to-nose with an Al-Quaeda member. You have an M16 out, with no room to fire. What do you do? bash his fething face in, knee him in the nuts, engage in a struggle for life or death and do your best to keep that terrorist from bringing his weapon to bear. Second scenario. You're behind enemy lines, and ammunition is running short. You take refuge in a small house with a storm cellar, and an enemy platoon searches the house. You hide in the cellar with your last mag for your un-suppressed pistol and your last magazine. Three enemy soldiers enter the cellar and begin to search it. Now, do you pull your knife and begin killing them, or do you start taking pot shots and alert the other fifteen soldiers of your presence. You pull your knife, you slit one man's throat, you stab another in the kidney, his death cry alerts the final soldier of your presence. Do you take a shot and risk alerting the rest of the platoon of your presence? NO! Logic dictates that you disarm him or kill him immediately in order to keep him from alerting his buddies of your presence - a knife to the face, rip his gun out of his hand, bash his face, cut his eye out, cut his throat, melee combat.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Okay, this is going to sound a bit unlikely but I'm going to throw it out there anyway to see if it holds any water...

So, the Primarchs are basically near immortal for all practical purposes... but after the Heresy, all the loyalists seem to either die off a lot easier or disappear (or in one instance, end up in a coma).

What if their toughness was somehow connected to the state the Emperor is in? As in, maybe they each carry a part of his essence and their power waxes and wanes with his.

At the end of the Heresy, the Emperor ends up effectively crippled forever, with his power greatly reduced. Dorn ends up dying/disappearing with a missing hand in a random Black Crusade, Corax goes off on a suicide mission into the Eye of Terror, and the rest of the Primarchs slowly fade away and disappear. Could there be some connection? Maybe that's why the Lion hasn't awakened in ten thousand years?

Yea, it sounds like a bit of a stretch...

Oh and the traitor Primarchs are now fueled by Chaos so I didn't bring them up.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Okay, this is going to sound a bit unlikely but I'm going to throw it out there anyway to see if it holds any water...

So, the Primarchs are basically near immortal for all practical purposes... but after the Heresy, all the loyalists seem to either die off a lot easier or disappear (or in one instance, end up in a coma).

What if their toughness was somehow connected to the state the Emperor is in? As in, maybe they each carry a part of his essence and their power waxes and wanes with his.

At the end of the Heresy, the Emperor ends up effectively crippled forever, with his power greatly reduced. Dorn ends up dying/disappearing with a missing hand in a random Black Crusade, Corax goes off on a suicide mission into the Eye of Terror, and the rest of the Primarchs slowly fade away and disappear. Could there be some connection? Maybe that's why the Lion hasn't awakened in ten thousand years?

Yea, it sounds like a bit of a stretch...

Oh and the traitor Primarchs are now fueled by Chaos so I didn't bring them up.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

He has by far the best feats strength and toughness wise. >That's not debatable.

 Alpharius wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

He has by far the best feats strength and toughness wise. >That's not debatable.

Wha...?!?

It is absolutely debatable!

It is all a matter of...perspective.

 dusara217 wrote:
The way I like to think of it is that their his Archangels/ Daemon Princes, only not matured yet. So this makes total sense to me, what with the Emperor basically being a God waiting to happen.

 Shidank wrote:
I assume the Lion is kept asleep because even the Watchers don't want him in charge. Don't get me wrong, the Lion is my favorite Primarch, but even I can recognize he would sacrifice 90% of mankind if it meant all of our enemies were killed with them. That kind of guy needs a check and balance.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The way I like to think of it is that their his Archangels/ Daemon Princes, only not matured yet. So this makes total sense to me, what with the Emperor basically being a God waiting to happen.

Yea, that could be a possible explanation for why their power is connected to the Emperor's. Well

 Shidank wrote:
I assume the Lion is kept asleep because even the Watchers don't want him in charge. Don't get me wrong, the Lion is my favorite Primarch, but even I can recognize he would sacrifice 90% of mankind if it meant all of our enemies were killed with them. That kind of guy needs a check and balance.

Oh, I haven't convinced myself of my theory yet, I just cooked it up for the purpose of this thread and as a possible explanation how powerful the Primarchs are.

Personally I believe the Watchers are just biding their time for when the Dark Angels will need the Lion the most and are using Cypher (who I like to think is Zahariel, since they spoke to him directly) as their agent to lead the DA to fight Chaos (as his actions tend to end up strengthening both the Imperium and the Unforgiven). IA fluff seems to indicate he's slowly making his way to Terra so that might give the Star Child theory some credence. And the Lion waking just in time to fight the 13th and final Black Crusade would make a lot of sense.

 Alpharius wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

He has by far the best feats strength and toughness wise. >That's not debatable.

Wha...?!?

It is absolutely debatable!

It is all a matter of...perspective.