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This is something I've wanted to do for a while, and finally have the energy to do.
There's an awful lot of whining about primarch feats and wankery and how it doesn't belong in scifi like 40k.
There was a thread awhile back that hilariously stated that a "single sister of battle with a melta could kill a primarch if they shot him in the face". They're still flesh and blood right?
Well, quite wrong actually.
The Emperor created Primarchs with massive quantities of stolen power from the Chaos Gods. As such Primarchs have a massive pool of energy from the warp inherent in their anatomy similar to the amount of power possessed by a star. This dramatically enhances their already blatantly inhuman physiology. They are capable of taking and giving off far more punishment than any thing composed of matter their size should ever be capable of due to this. And they can further subconsciously draw power from the warp.
Lets go over some feats shall we
-Horus didn't immediately glass Isstvan because he thought that Angron would not only survive the rapid glassing of Isstvan, but would be pissed at him. And apparently furiously swim through space to crash into his ship and murder him. Yep.
-Angron, who was almost dead, armorless, and relatively calm managed to stop a Warhound titan giving it all it had to crush him. For about 45 seconds. It's likely if he was fully in a rage, fully healed, and had his armor he would have thrown it off him, sending the titan dozens of feet in the air. Betrayer.
-Fulgrim who was being tortured managed to go from charred bone to the beginnings of feet in a matter of minutes.
-Magnus grew to the size of a Warlord Titan to beat a titan to death with his bare hands. This is more psychic stuff though. This was mentioned in A Thousand Sons.
-Magnus was completely serious in threatening to drag a Space Wolves strike cruiser (assuming STC 3 km in length) from high orbit onto the heads of some very scared puppies. A Thousand Sons.
-Magnus completely stopped the advance of a 1000 Custodes, 100,000 Space Puppies, A Titan Legion and a Large number of Sisters of Silence. In a matter of seconds. A Thousand Sons.
-Kurze flipped a Land Raider, and set it on fire. Yep. Flipped a tank. the way tanks are I think it'd be far easier to deadlift one than to flip one.
This is ignoring some of the sillier stuff (even by my standards) like Vulkan surviving being hit by a macrocannon. As in actually touched by the round.

Primarchs have always been insanely powerful from the days of Index Astartes. IIRC, they've actually been nerfed. Tales of the Primarchs from IA had them wrecking entire mountains/producing shockwaves, whereas now they're "merely" ripping apart MBT's or tearing down Warhound Titans.

It really, maybe more than anything else, depends who's writing them. Lorgar survived being shot with a Titan plasma weapon in Betrayer. Guilliman almost got killed by bolter fire in Unremembered Empire.

They are tough as nails, beings of immense power, the sons of the Emperor

He still oblieterated those would-be Assassins, not to mention depending on the bolter ammunition, they could have posed a threat to virtually anything capable of fitting in that room.

 Wyzilla wrote:
He still oblieterated those would-be Assassins, not to mention depending on the bolter ammunition, they could have posed a threat to virtually anything capable of fitting in that room.

Yes I know. But he still came close to dying to small arms fire, while Lorgar survived a Titan gun.

Ferrus Manus lifted a mountain.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
He still oblieterated those would-be Assassins, not to mention depending on the bolter ammunition, they could have posed a threat to virtually anything capable of fitting in that room.

Yes I know. But he still came close to dying to small arms fire, while Lorgar survived a Titan gun.

Guilliman is a bitch primarch though.
Angron is pretty consistent in what i've read of the HH (maybe because ADB mainly deals with him) in that he's nigh unstoppable.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
He still oblieterated those would-be Assassins, not to mention depending on the bolter ammunition, they could have posed a threat to virtually anything capable of fitting in that room.

Yes I know. But he still came close to dying to small arms fire, while Lorgar survived a Titan gun.

Guilliman is a bitch primarch though.
Angron is pretty consistent in what i've read of the HH (maybe because ADB mainly deals with him) in that he's nigh unstoppable.

Guilliman is not a 'bitch Primarch'. He held his own against both Angron and Lorgar in Betrayer for a while. Why is he a 'bitch Primarch'..?

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why is he a 'bitch Primarch'..?

Edgy Ultramarines hate.

 j31c3n wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why is he a 'bitch Primarch'..?

Edgy Ultramarines hate.

Mm probably. Should've guessed.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
He still oblieterated those would-be Assassins, not to mention depending on the bolter ammunition, they could have posed a threat to virtually anything capable of fitting in that room.

Yes I know. But he still came close to dying to small arms fire, while Lorgar survived a Titan gun.

Guilliman is a bitch primarch though.
Angron is pretty consistent in what i've read of the HH (maybe because ADB mainly deals with him) in that he's nigh unstoppable.

Guilliman is not a 'bitch Primarch'. He held his own against both Angron and Lorgar in Betrayer for a while. Why is he a 'bitch Primarch'..?

Not both of them really. At the same time anyway.
He knocked Lorgar out of the fight almost immediately, and was falling apart against Angron.
I don't really mean bitch seriously.
He still had his flagship blown apart and was completely fine and punching dudes in space.
Angron is a primarch built to inspire his men with his insane feats on the front lines. Guilliman is more built to do that with rousing speeches.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
He still oblieterated those would-be Assassins, not to mention depending on the bolter ammunition, they could have posed a threat to virtually anything capable of fitting in that room.

Yes I know. But he still came close to dying to small arms fire, while Lorgar survived a Titan gun.

Guilliman is a bitch primarch though.
Angron is pretty consistent in what i've read of the HH (maybe because ADB mainly deals with him) in that he's nigh unstoppable.

Guilliman is not a 'bitch Primarch'. He held his own against both Angron and Lorgar in Betrayer for a while. Why is he a 'bitch Primarch'..?

Not both of them really. At the same time anyway.
He knocked Lorgar out of the fight almost immediately, and was falling apart against Angron.
I don't really mean bitch seriously.
He still had his flagship blown apart and was completely fine and punching dudes in space.
Angron is a primarch built to inspire his men with his insane feats on the front lines. Guilliman is more built to do that with rousing speeches.

Angron wasn't built that way at all, and nor does he act that way. He spends the entirety of Betrayer isolated from his men because he just rushes off and leaves them in the dust.

I think it's heavily implied Lorgar only survived being shot by a titan gun because of chaos sorcery.

that said, the thing to remember about Primarchs? They're basicly Greek gods. I don't mean that they're analogues to gods or anything, but rather they're presented in the same way, larger in life greater then humanity in all regards, including their flaws. The Horus Heresy is best viewed through that lens IMHO. and most certinly NOT as hard sci-fi

BrianDavion wrote:
I think it's heavily implied Lorgar only survived being shot by a titan gun because of chaos sorcery.

that said, the thing to remember about Primarchs? They're basicly Greek gods. I don't mean that they're analogues to gods or anything, but rather they're presented in the same way, larger in life greater then humanity in all regards, including their flaws. The Horus Heresy is best viewed through that lens IMHO. and most certinly NOT as hard sci-fi

Well chaos sorcery healed him quickly... I may have picked a bad example but my point still stands that the toughness of the Primarchs depends entirely on who's writing them and what they need from the scene.

The whole 40k universe is more fantasy in space than science fiction. I like the analogy of the Primarchs to Greek gods.

 ImAGeek wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think it's heavily implied Lorgar only survived being shot by a titan gun because of chaos sorcery.

that said, the thing to remember about Primarchs? They're basicly Greek gods. I don't mean that they're analogues to gods or anything, but rather they're presented in the same way, larger in life greater then humanity in all regards, including their flaws. The Horus Heresy is best viewed through that lens IMHO. and most certinly NOT as hard sci-fi

Well chaos sorcery healed him quickly... I may have picked a bad example but my point still stands that the toughness of the Primarchs depends entirely on who's writing them and what they need from the scene.

The whole 40k universe is more fantasy in space than science fiction. I like the analogy of the Primarchs to Greek gods.

it really does make a lot of sense. everything about the Greek gods was magnified, their virtues yes, but also their vices. And I think we see this in the Primarchs as well

 ImAGeek wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
He still oblieterated those would-be Assassins, not to mention depending on the bolter ammunition, they could have posed a threat to virtually anything capable of fitting in that room.

Yes I know. But he still came close to dying to small arms fire, while Lorgar survived a Titan gun.

Guilliman is a bitch primarch though.
Angron is pretty consistent in what i've read of the HH (maybe because ADB mainly deals with him) in that he's nigh unstoppable.

Guilliman is not a 'bitch Primarch'. He held his own against both Angron and Lorgar in Betrayer for a while. Why is he a 'bitch Primarch'..?

Not both of them really. At the same time anyway.
He knocked Lorgar out of the fight almost immediately, and was falling apart against Angron.
I don't really mean bitch seriously.
He still had his flagship blown apart and was completely fine and punching dudes in space.
Angron is a primarch built to inspire his men with his insane feats on the front lines. Guilliman is more built to do that with rousing speeches.

Angron wasn't built that way at all, and nor does he act that way. He spends the entirety of Betrayer isolated from his men because he just rushes off and leaves them in the dust.

He was built for that.
The whole crux of Angron's character is that he's a broken god. He's dealt with so much gak that even as a Primarch, a hero above all others, he's been broken. Of course he doesn't work as intended.

They are basically completly inviscible to anything, but the most powerful psychic or «magic» powers. To my knowledge, only a Primarch or the Emperor have ever been hable to kill or simply defeat a Primarch (possible exception for the anathema and Horus).They can survive plasma weapon blast, tank shells, space vacuum, etc and destroy armored tanks with their bare hands.

epronovost wrote:
They are basically completly inviscible to anything, but the most powerful psychic or «magic» powers. To my knowledge, only a Primarch or the Emperor have ever been hable to kill or simply defeat a Primarch (possible exception for the anathema and Horus).They can survive plasma weapon blast, tank shells, space vacuum, etc and destroy armored tanks with their bare hands.

Abbaddon, debatably killed a Primarch.

Curze was killed by a Callidus assassin.

The Night Haunter wrote:"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

But he allowed it. (And she may have been armed with a C'tan phase blade.)

 j31c3n wrote:
Curze was killed by a Callidus assassin.

The Night Haunter wrote:"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

But he allowed it. (And she may have been armed with a C'tan phase blade.)

May have? Callidus assassins are famed for the use of Necron Phase Blades. Not to mention that previously Curze IIRC had walked off hits from power weapons. All of the Primarchs are demigods, not even remotely related to mortals save humanoid form. Hell Corax just walked off lascannon shots that penned his armor.

Guillaman is t6, he was wearing no armour, the alpha legion guys were probably vets so let's give them sniper, if I remember there was 5/6 of them so 10/12 shots, 3 to hit, 4 to wound, no armour save for wearing no armour, so yeah they probably could kill him... And any other non armoured primarch, that's fluff and rules gelling pretty nicely, how often does that happen?

I think there were 8 guys. Probably more.
In the middle of the struggle Bobby G said 7 were dead.

there you go then, no armour, toughness is wont matter either, so yeah, I can see why he thought they could kill him.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
He still oblieterated those would-be Assassins, not to mention depending on the bolter ammunition, they could have posed a threat to virtually anything capable of fitting in that room.

Yes I know. But he still came close to dying to small arms fire, while Lorgar survived a Titan gun.

Yes, but Bolters detonate INSIDE of the target. That's like when Jack Sparrow shoved a cherry bomb into the skeleton guy right before he turned human again and blew up. The Bolter is a .75 Calibre (which is enough to make a human explode, even without detonating) explosive round with a detonation similar to a 32 MM grenade. It was designed to defeat monstrous creatures and infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think it's heavily implied Lorgar only survived being shot by a titan gun because of chaos sorcery.

that said, the thing to remember about Primarchs? They're basicly Greek gods. I don't mean that they're analogues to gods or anything, but rather they're presented in the same way, larger in life greater then humanity in all regards, including their flaws. The Horus Heresy is best viewed through that lens IMHO. and most certinly NOT as hard sci-fi

Well chaos sorcery healed him quickly... I may have picked a bad example but my point still stands that the toughness of the Primarchs depends entirely on who's writing them and what they need from the scene.

The whole 40k universe is more fantasy in space than science fiction. I like the analogy of the Primarchs to Greek gods.

Personally, I find it easier to swallow when you just imagine it all as propaganda told from the perspective of whichever faction the protagonist belongs to. That way, I get to have my own little version of 40k that actually makes sense and is logical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
Guillaman is t6, he was wearing no armour, the alpha legion guys were probably vets so let's give them sniper, if I remember there was 5/6 of them so 10/12 shots, 3 to hit, 4 to wound, no armour save for wearing no armour, so yeah they probably could kill him... And any other non armoured primarch, that's fluff and rules gelling pretty nicely, how often does that happen?

Guilliman's only Toughness 6? I feel like he should be Toughness 8 with a 3++ Invulnerable save.

Except Primarch armor is more or less superficial then truly functional. Corax, Angron, Fulgrim, etc all wade through fire without giving a damn, and are able to tank the blows of each other (which rip apart tanks and space marines) and only receive mild bruising of the flesh. Plus every single weapon that has killed a Primarch has been either supernatural or outright ignores durability. Curze, Sanguinius, Manus, and Horus all fell to such weapons.

Also, excuse me as I laugh my ass off at any idea of 40K being remotely "realistic" and not blatant fantasy. The very concept of space marines and melee even existing is firmly centered in fantasy.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except Primarch armor is more or less superficial then truly functional. Corax, Angron, Fulgrim, etc all wade through fire without giving a damn, and are able to tank the blows of each other (which rip apart tanks and space marines) and only receive mild bruising of the flesh. Plus every single weapon that has killed a Primarch has been either supernatural or outright ignores durability. Curze, Sanguinius, Manus, and Horus all fell to such weapons.

Also, excuse me as I laugh my ass off at any idea of 40K being remotely "realistic" and not blatant fantasy. The very concept of space marines and melee even existing is firmly centered in fantasy.

The way I like to think of it is that after millenia of ballistic warfare beings the primary means of killing people, ballistic armour evolved to the point that melee became viable again, since bullets and lasers were barely doing diddly squat.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except Primarch armor is more or less superficial then truly functional. Corax, Angron, Fulgrim, etc all wade through fire without giving a damn, and are able to tank the blows of each other (which rip apart tanks and space marines) and only receive mild bruising of the flesh. Plus every single weapon that has killed a Primarch has been either supernatural or outright ignores durability. Curze, Sanguinius, Manus, and Horus all fell to such weapons.

Also, excuse me as I laugh my ass off at any idea of 40K being remotely "realistic" and not blatant fantasy. The very concept of space marines and melee even existing is firmly centered in fantasy.

The way I like to think of it is that after millenia of ballistic warfare beings the primary means of killing people, ballistic armour evolved to the point that melee became viable again, since bullets and lasers were barely doing diddly squat.

Except not only is that clearly not the case, but armor evolving would not suddenly bring back melee weapons, it would make them MORE ineffective, because they would generate less kinetic energy then a gun. Suddenly having better armor doesn't mean swords come back, it means people start using bigger guns with more efficient ammo loads at penning targets.... like what happens in real life. Especially chainweapons, which are fething stupid in absolutely every way and have no right to penetrate armor at all. Were your theory true, nothing besides power weapons would exist in 40K, except even that wouldn't make sense, as there's still plasma guns, meltas, grav guns, railguns, gauss guns, etc.

By that logic, tanks would be ramming each other opposed to developing HEAT and Sabot rounds and increasing cannon sizes to 100mm+ as armor advanced over WWII and simple solid slugs no longer did the job. Or early firearms would have been completely abandoned due to their inability to penetrate fully armored Chevaliers instead of adding more gunpowder.

"Armor advanced to such a degree" is an idiotic excuse that does not work at all in practice. If armor truly advanced to such a degree, then no weapons would work, because melee is even further lacking the kinetic energy of bullets, or the raw thermal energy of lasers and plasma. And that's clearly not the case at all in 40K. Hell, people in 40k can regularly carry weapons the size of a rifle that can melt an MBT down to a warped pile of scrap metal.

40K is pure fantasy. There's no form of logic to get around this. It has always been just Warhammer Fantasy in Space, and are best could be called a fantasy space opera or "science fantasy", although that word combination is of itself an oxymoron.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Curze was killed by a Callidus assassin.

The Night Haunter wrote:"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

But he allowed it. (And she may have been armed with a C'tan phase blade.)

May have? Callidus assassins are famed for the use of Necron Phase Blades. Not to mention that previously Curze IIRC had walked off hits from power weapons. All of the Primarchs are demigods, not even remotely related to mortals save humanoid form. Hell Corax just walked off lascannon shots that penned his armor.

I only say may have because I don't know what date the Callidus temple started using the phase blades.

 ImAGeek wrote:
It really, maybe more than anything else, depends who's writing them. Lorgar survived being shot with a Titan plasma weapon in Betrayer. Guilliman almost got killed by bolter fire in Unremembered Empire.

Which pretty much makes them kinda like Space Marines.

They're invincible when the author needs them to be, and made of tissue paper when not.