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Hollismason wrote:
They only need to fix Grav Guns and some point costs in the Space Marine Codex while removing the Space Marine Bikes as troops and the Space Marine codex is perfectly balanced. Reduce the cost of Terminators as well.

Eldar need a lot
Scorpions need to be made more viable along with all the other Aspects, like when was the last time you saw a Eldar player even field Banshees. Their Acrobatic needs to give them the Harlequin rule of run charge possibly or assault out of any vehicle.

Etc.. Etc..

Umm, also make Smashgakker not a thing.

Oh right that to. Honestly what's weird is the Necron Codex more than any other leans toward super units.

I feel that's the way the army is intended to be played with giant unkillable blobs.

Hollismason wrote:
Oh right that to. Honestly what's weird is the Necron Codex more than any other leans toward super units.

I feel that's the way the army is intended to be played with giant unkillable blobs.

Kind of, yeah. I feel (as OP as people might think it is) Necrons actually represent overall what they're supposed to be. A unkillable horde of marching undead robots.

Which, is fine, but the issue is that they need to pay points for that which they really aren't.

I mean, much the same could be said of many Eldar lists, they aren't particularly unfluffy most of the time, even if they're the stereotypical "5 wave serpents, 2 Wraithknights+psychic support" type deals.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
They only need to fix Grav Guns and some point costs in the Space Marine Codex while removing the Space Marine Bikes as troops and the Space Marine codex is perfectly balanced. Reduce the cost of Terminators as well.

Eldar need a lot
Scorpions need to be made more viable along with all the other Aspects, like when was the last time you saw a Eldar player even field Banshees. Their Acrobatic needs to give them the Harlequin rule of run charge possibly or assault out of any vehicle.

Etc.. Etc..

Umm, also make Smashgakker not a thing.

You do realize they just gave khorne chaos the shield eternal in power armor form right? Khorne lord on juggy with two powerfists for even more attacks at str 9

 BlackArmour wrote:


The hope shouldve been everything was getting balanced and fun theme lists , not oh look something else thats on level with the other crazy stuff.

I fail to see how that hope was based on.fact. While thr codexes were being toned down l, I don't really think most of them encouraged 'balanced and themed lists'.

For example, tyranids are all about Flyrants (as many as you can fit for most list. Grey Knights also seem to be all about NDK spam and using Draigo to teleport centstars around.

I think that thing is 50 points or higher in the Codex it may actually be one of the most expensive Wargear items but yes.

Also, he has more attacks than Smash dude.

Please don't tell anyone.

( if he joins a unit of Blood Letters from the formation and charges a unit that outnumbers them +1 A this is a maybe)

If he picks the Level 4 Blood Tithe +1 A.
He has a juggernaut +1 A.
He has two Powerfists +1 A.
He get's Rage +2 Attacks.

He has 8 to 9 attacks on the charge.

Just need to figure out how to get him Hatred.

 Orock wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
They only need to fix Grav Guns and some point costs in the Space Marine Codex while removing the Space Marine Bikes as troops and the Space Marine codex is perfectly balanced. Reduce the cost of Terminators as well.

Eldar need a lot
Scorpions need to be made more viable along with all the other Aspects, like when was the last time you saw a Eldar player even field Banshees. Their Acrobatic needs to give them the Harlequin rule of run charge possibly or assault out of any vehicle.

Etc.. Etc..

Umm, also make Smashgakker not a thing.

You do realize they just gave khorne chaos the shield eternal in power armor form right? Khorne lord on juggy with two powerfists for even more attacks at str 9

Yes, but it's not a 3++ save. At best that have a 4++, which is reasonable. They also don't have a 2+ save. 2+/3++ FNP Eternal Warrior 4 wound dude on a bike is a bit more insane, if you ask me.


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Hollismason wrote:
I think that thing is 50 points or higher in the Codex it may actually be one of the most expensive Wargear items but yes.

Also, he has more attacks than Smash dude.

Please don't tell anyone.

( if he joins a unit of Blood Letters from the formation and charges a unit that outnumbers them +1 A this is a maybe)

If he picks the Level 4 Blood Tithe +1 A.
He has a juggernaut +1 A.
He has two Powerfists +1 A.
He get's Rage +2 Attacks.

He has 8 to 9 attacks on the charge.

Just need to figure out how to get him Hatred.

Run him up with a Herald with a locus? (Loci? Whatever it's called)

 Vaktathi wrote:
Which, is fine, but the issue is that they need to pay points for that which they really aren't.

I mean, much the same could be said of many Eldar lists, they aren't particularly unfluffy most of the time, even if they're the stereotypical "5 wave serpents, 2 Wraithknights+psychic support" type deals.

Theyre paying an opportunity cost however- want to field a decurion at all? You must take X, Y, Z in excess of a nromal CAD minimum requirement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Which, is fine, but the issue is that they need to pay points for that which they really aren't.

I mean, much the same could be said of many Eldar lists, they aren't particularly unfluffy most of the time, even if they're the stereotypical "5 wave serpents, 2 Wraithknights+psychic support" type deals.

Theyre paying an opportunity cost however- want to field a decurion at all? You must take X, Y, Z in excess of a nromal CAD minimum requirement.

All of it, however, is good.

Tactical marines are a tax, Ork Boyz are a tax to many, Guard platoons are considered taxes to some. Necron Warriors and Tomb Blades are not a tax, especially in a decurion; they are objectively good units without Decurion buffs, and only get better.

Tactical marines don't get better. You either chose the right chapter tactics which elevate them from bad to "meh," or they're gak. Necron Warriors start of good, better than most standard troops I'd argue, somewhere around Guard Veterans and Fire Warriors, but being the most durable troops in the game rather than having especially high firepower. The Decurion makes them as durable, if not slightly more durable than Tactical Terminators, and tomb blades? Ignore cover jetbikes with guns which would make Tau jealous.

Doesn't sound like a tax to me, and certainly not an opportunity cost. What would you be taking instead of the Decurion options?

When you attempt to build a Decurion list, the taxes and opportunity costs become quite apparent.

Sure Warriors are good. So are Immortals. But in my meta, Immortals might as well be Warriors. IIRC, that's an 85 point minimum tax right there I would not be inclined to spend otherwise.

Tomb Blades are good but they're not the second coming. I'm coming around to them what with IC now, but in all honesty, I wouldn't be inclined to put them in lists over Destroyers or Wraiths, so there's an opportunity cost.

Now I have my Reclamation Legion, I go to choose a first Auxiliary. Do I want only Heavy Destroyers as my Heavy Support? Can't have. Do I want to take a single Annihilation Barge? Can't do. Do I want to take a single Doomsday Ark? No sir. Can I bring Crypteks? Sure, but I have to bring another Overlord and a Lord to even have 1 in my list unless I go with a secondary CAD. Can I bring a Triarch Stalker? Not without 2 very expensive Elites, which I wouldn't be inclined to take because they need to get to close to be good, and my meta is full of CC nastiness. Dare I run Wraiths? I can, and it will be good, but it will cost me dearly in the form of a Spyder and a swarm of Scarabs per unit of Wraiths.

The points run out quick when you are meeting the requirements for these Decurion formations, and you can only pick from these formations.

"Oh look! Cheese is on sale at the store, but I have to buy a small piece of the popular cheese that I don't want in order to take advantage".

Complaining about Decurion taxes is a joke. What you get in return for the units you don't want (for some reason) is worth much more than what you pay and you still get to use those units on top of the formation bonus.

I wasn't comparing Decurion taxes to anything esle, just refuting the asserion that there are no taxes and opportunity costs.


Unless you meant "complaining"??? In which case, I'm not trying to do that either. I really like the new Decurion and 4+ RP army-wide. It's strong, and make Necrons play on the board more like how I feel they should.

And while I wouldn't normally be taking Immortals or Tomb Blades, I agree its a small price to pay for the benefit, and the price does add useful units to your army.

I understand that there may be an opportunity cost and being handcuffed into spending points on a unit you would not normally take could be slightly annoying, but I would hesitate to call Immortals or Tomb Blades a tax. They are both good units. Now, they may not be as good as Wraiths or as cost effective as basic Warriors, but you can still expect them to perform reasonably well. If you were forced to take Wyches or Hellions in order to get that sweet 4+ RP, THAT would be a tax.

Did you want to include the unit? No? And that unit costs points? Then that is a cost you did not want to bear.

No matter how objectively / relatively good those units may be, it is still a tax. For example you simply cannot get a decurion of any decent composition at lower levels, if you want to take a Monolith youre taking an Obeliesk as well, etc.

Its the same issue as poorly analysing PAGK and deciding theyre undercosts, as a power weapon on a S4 model costs 15 points, so they should be at least 30 point.s. Its a poor analysis that doesnt take into account that "mandatory" always provides a discount over "optional".

How are warriors in a decurion "objectively good?" They're tough, sure, but their offensive output is extremely low and they lack objective secured. I'd take objective secured tactical marines over decurion warriors in a heartbeat if I could.

Not saying the decurion is bad, just saying having to take two units of non-objective secured warriors sure feels like a tax to me.

I won a Ferrari in a Tim Hortons cup. My insurance goes up 3xFold. That is an unwanted tax. (but i still get the Ferrari)

Yes, and sometimes you cannot afford the tax (too low a points limit, literally cannot afford to buy new models, etc) meaning you dont get to use the ferrari, even if it is otherwise "free".

 Nate668 wrote:
How are warriors in a decurion "objectively good?" They're tough, sure, but their offensive output is extremely low and they lack objective secured. I'd take objective secured tactical marines over decurion warriors in a heartbeat if I could.

Not saying the decurion is bad, just saying having to take two units of non-objective secured warriors sure feels like a tax to me.

Are you kidding?

Necron Warriors are flat-out one of the best infantry units in the ENTIRE GAME for the points value now. Forget about Decurion for a moment, they're still crazy powerful. Their offensive output is not "low" they have one of the best infantry weapons of any army out there! They autowound anything, even a Wraithknight, on a 6! They autoglance vehicles on a 6! Even Eldar with their Shuriken weapons and Tau with their Pulse weapons can't do both those things!

You can take equal points tactical marines and equal points Necron Warriors and the Necrons will shoot the Marines off the table, just because the Necrons will likely out-live the marines. Who the heck cares if they have "Objective Secured" or not at that point?

Then you add in the bonuses for Decurion to the Warriors and they become REALLY insanely good.

Yeah, the massed gunline a Reclamation Legion forces you to play, and honestly it'll be more like forty or fifty guns than the mandatory 28 once you've kitted units out appropriately, can easily gun down anything it isn't forced to snap fire at.

Strength 4 might be merely the standard guns measure upwards from, but a lot of it is still a lot of it and Gauss is a guarantee of potential harm.

 Nate668 wrote:
How are warriors in a decurion "objectively good?" They're tough, sure, but their offensive output is extremely low and they lack objective secured. I'd take objective secured tactical marines over decurion warriors in a heartbeat if I could.

Not saying the decurion is bad, just saying having to take two units of non-objective secured warriors sure feels like a tax to me.

Really, I've never had OS take precedence this much, It's nice but it's still tacked onto a worthless unit like a tac squad.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did you want to include the unit? No? And that unit costs points? Then that is a cost you did not want to bear.

No matter how objectively / relatively good those units may be, it is still a tax. For example you simply cannot get a decurion of any decent composition at lower levels, if you want to take a Monolith youre taking an Obeliesk as well, etc.

Its the same issue as poorly analysing PAGK and deciding theyre undercosts, as a power weapon on a S4 model costs 15 points, so they should be at least 30 point.s. Its a poor analysis that doesnt take into account that "mandatory" always provides a discount over "optional".

That's exactly the way I feel. Nothing in the codex is bad, but I don't wanna always have to bring Praetorians to bring a stalker, and so on and so forth. Thus, it does still fall into the category of "tax".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, and sometimes you cannot afford the tax (too low a points limit, literally cannot afford to buy new models, etc) meaning you dont get to use the ferrari, even if it is otherwise "free".

My girlfriend wanted to play a 500 point game last night to help her ease back into the game after not playing for a few months. I had to make a 750 point list and persuade her to up the limit because it wasn't possible as Decurion. Yet another downside, if you could call it that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Murrdox wrote:

 Nate668 wrote:
How are warriors in a decurion "objectively good?" They're tough, sure, but their offensive output is extremely low and they lack objective secured. I'd take objective secured tactical marines over decurion warriors in a heartbeat if I could.

Not saying the decurion is bad, just saying having to take two units of non-objective secured warriors sure feels like a tax to me.

Are you kidding?

Necron Warriors are flat-out one of the best infantry units in the ENTIRE GAME for the points value now. Forget about Decurion for a moment, they're still crazy powerful. Their offensive output is not "low" they have one of the best infantry weapons of any army out there! They autowound anything, even a Wraithknight, on a 6! They autoglance vehicles on a 6! Even Eldar with their Shuriken weapons and Tau with their Pulse weapons can't do both those things!

You can take equal points tactical marines and equal points Necron Warriors and the Necrons will shoot the Marines off the table, just because the Necrons will likely out-live the marines. Who the heck cares if they have "Objective Secured" or not at that point?

Then you add in the bonuses for Decurion to the Warriors and they become REALLY insanely good.

Yeah, Ojsec Tac Marines really aren't going to win against Necron Warriors. And saying their damage output is low is probably because you likely spam as many Plasma Guns or Melta guns in your Tac marines as you can. Yeah, we "only" have bolt guns, that can do literally anything, and also kill infantry with weight of fire.

 krodarklorr wrote:
My girlfriend wanted to play a 500 point game last night to help her ease back into the game after not playing for a few months. I had to make a 750 point list and persuade her to up the limit because it wasn't possible as Decurion. Yet another downside, if you could call it that.

Haha, your girlfriend wants a nice calm game to ease into 40k again, and you can't just give her a 500p game, because you refuse to play even the absolute pinnacle of what anyone would call a "friendly game" without Decurion.
Holy Cruddace, am I the only one that finds that hilarious?
There has to be something we can learn from that.

Is that game in your : 20/4/1 ?

Remember that discussion about Typhoons versus Tomb Blades we had a while back? It dawned on me that my mentality was all wrong. There's a lot of traps you can easily fall into when fighting Necron units, and how to avoid them isn't common knowledge yet. Decurion exacerbates that. Typhoons can kite dismounted Decurion Warriors the whole game and make their points back in about 5-6 turns. But we're still discussing frittering that potential away on something like a Tomb Blade. Tomb Blades are a Distraction Carnifex, your mistake is targeting them in the first place. A 200pt Missileside team kills about ~1 per turn. Not smart!

So the name of the game is not matching firepower, and getting frustrated when it won't work. It's about knowing how to properly cope with specific units. A Tomb Blade has 1x S4 attack in melee for 22pts. Impressive? No. Don't shoot them, just lock them up with a fast skirmisher unit that can hold them in melee. Bikes, Rough Riders, Vespids, fast Synapse units. Does it kill them? No! Does it counter them? Yes! Wraiths are strong, but their damage output is still limited. If you don't want to commit 400+ points in resources to kill them, what can lock them up at points? 30x Synapse Gargoyles? A Conscript blob? Kroot Hounds testing on LD10? There are all viable options.

Necron Infantry can be gunned down by getting enough fire through their armour save. Think S8 and AP3/4 minimum, anything else will fail. Faster, weaker units with better range will always grind down "stronger" units if they stay mobile -- this isn't complicated, it's a basic RTS tactic. Use speed to set up on their flanks. Infantry can't readjust quickly, so it minimizes return fire from the greater army. Bring a scary template to discourage grouping up for protection, so you can hit isolated models. Use vehicles against Warriors. If you absorb a single glancing hit, you lose no effectiveness. When infantry loses models, they lose firepower. If you can win the war of attrition over the course of the game -- who has ObSec, them or you? So now, you have a game plan.

Fighting Decurion is going to be like fighting every other army in the game. You are going to suck if you don't target their weaknesses. If your army can only do one thing, weight of fire, maybe it's not that Necrons are broken. Maybe you've just discovered a weakness in your list. And that's why I think Decurion is so cool -- it's going to hard counter mono-build armies that lack the flexibility to adapt. 4x Serpent Spam and 2x Wraithknights? 3x Riptide and 3x Missileside? 5x Dakka Flyrants? All very common, very shooty lists that don't really bring anything else to the table.

If every tool is your belt is a hammer, you will by necessity treat every tactical problem like a nail. You can hardly blame Decurion players for exploiting a problem -- predictability and inflexibility -- that most players are intentionally building into their own armies.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Did you want to include the unit? No? And that unit costs points? Then that is a cost you did not want to bear.

No matter how objectively / relatively good those units may be, it is still a tax. For example you simply cannot get a decurion of any decent composition at lower levels, if you want to take a Monolith youre taking an Obeliesk as well, etc.

If you don't want a specific unit required by Decurion, don't play Decurion. The whole point of this thread is that Decurion is not fun to play against because it's broken.

The Decurion doesn't really have what I'd call "weaknesses".

I suppose if the board has sparse terrain you could do Leman Russ spam.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Remember that discussion about Typhoons versus Tomb Blades we had a while back? It dawned on me that my mentality was all wrong. There's a lot of traps you can easily fall into when fighting Necron units, and how to avoid them isn't common knowledge yet. Decurion exacerbates that. Typhoons can kite dismounted Decurion Warriors the whole game and make their points back in about 5-6 turns. But we're still discussing frittering that potential away on something like a Tomb Blade. Tomb Blades are a Distraction Carnifex, your mistake is targeting them in the first place. A 200pt Missileside team kills about ~1 per turn. Not smart!

So the name of the game is not matching firepower, and getting frustrated when it won't work. It's about knowing how to properly cope with specific units. A Tomb Blade has 1x S4 attack in melee for 22pts. Impressive? No. Don't shoot them, just lock them up with a fast skirmisher unit that can hold them in melee. Bikes, Rough Riders, Vespids, fast Synapse units. Does it kill them? No! Does it counter them? Yes! Wraiths are strong, but their damage output is still limited. If you don't want to commit 400+ points in resources to kill them, what can lock them up at points? 30x Synapse Gargoyles? A Conscript blob? Kroot Hounds testing on LD10? There are all viable options.

Necron Infantry can be gunned down by getting enough fire through their armour save. Think S8 and AP3/4 minimum, anything else will fail. Faster, weaker units with better range will always grind down "stronger" units if they stay mobile -- this isn't complicated, it's a basic RTS tactic. Use speed to set up on their flanks. Infantry can't readjust quickly, so it minimizes return fire from the greater army. Bring a scary template to discourage grouping up for protection, so you can hit isolated models. Use vehicles against Warriors. If you absorb a single glancing hit, you lose no effectiveness. When infantry loses models, they lose firepower. If you can win the war of attrition over the course of the game -- who has ObSec, them or you? So now, you have a game plan.

Fighting Decurion is going to be like fighting every other army in the game. You are going to suck if you don't target their weaknesses. If your army can only do one thing, weight of fire, maybe it's not that Necrons are broken. Maybe you've just discovered a weakness in your list. And that's why I think Decurion is so cool -- it's going to hard counter mono-build armies that lack the flexibility to adapt. 4x Serpent Spam and 2x Wraithknights? 3x Riptide and 3x Missileside? 5x Dakka Flyrants? All very common, very shooty lists that don't really bring anything else to the table.

If every tool is your belt is a hammer, you will by necessity treat every tactical problem like a nail. You can hardly blame Decurion players for exploiting a problem -- predictability and inflexibility -- that most players are intentionally building into their own armies.

I literally stopped reading after you talked about catching Tomb Blades in melee.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Wraiths are strong, but their damage output is still limited. If you don't want to commit 400+ points in resources to kill them, what can lock them up at points? 30x Synapse Gargoyles? A Conscript blob? Kroot Hounds testing on LD10? There are all viable options.

I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

 Purifier wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
My girlfriend wanted to play a 500 point game last night to help her ease back into the game after not playing for a few months. I had to make a 750 point list and persuade her to up the limit because it wasn't possible as Decurion. Yet another downside, if you could call it that.

Haha, your girlfriend wants a nice calm game to ease into 40k again, and you can't just give her a 500p game, because you refuse to play even the absolute pinnacle of what anyone would call a "friendly game" without Decurion.
Holy Cruddace, am I the only one that finds that hilarious?
There has to be something we can learn from that.

Is that game in your : 20/4/1 ?

It is not, no. Call it what you want, I just prefer to use Decurion. I won't lie, I don't even remember what it's like to build a list otherwise.

lustigjh wrote:
I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

Not getting the charge is going to hurt, that's another tactical problem. As for their damage potential, you want to stay away from throwing a 100pt unit into combat with them, only 3-5pt bodies. They need to kill 43x 5pt models to make their points back. Obviously getting something like Invisibility or Mental Fortitude into them would help a lot, so keep looking for solutions. They will be out there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I literally stopped reading after you talked about catching Tomb Blades in melee.

Suit yourself.