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Martel732 wrote:
The Decurion's offense is not devastating, and so there is still plenty of ability for the opponent to play their game. Things start going wrong if there is a lot of obj sec on the table. Now my lists have zero obj sec at the moment, but I'm taking that chance with my eyes open.

Decurion not offensive? Have you played with a Destroyer Cult? Judicator Battalion? Wraiths with Beamers? And then all the normal firepower Necrons have?

To contest (capture with ObSec) the opponent still neds to get within 3 of an objective.

This can be tough when there are blobs of warriors still on the board who can cover them.

Ghost arks are also fun for parking in front of objectives too.

Ok, here is an Idea for CSM. Try 20x Cultists screening a Helbrute. This will only work if you take "4th Quadrant Legacy", it's going to grant Fearless within 12" to all your cultists. It also has the bonus of giving you a 4++ when your Helbrute has 1HP.

With 2x melee weapons giving your Helbrute 3x S10 attacks, you will ID Wraiths every time you get through the 3++. That's a 210pt Combo so you will stand a decent chance at points depending on how things play out on the table.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Decurion's offense is not devastating, and so there is still plenty of ability for the opponent to play their game. Things start going wrong if there is a lot of obj sec on the table. Now my lists have zero obj sec at the moment, but I'm taking that chance with my eyes open.

Decurion not offensive? Have you played with a Destroyer Cult? Judicator Battalion? Wraiths with Beamers? And then all the normal firepower Necrons have?

They're still not picking up models Tau/Eldar fast.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Decurion's offense is not devastating, and so there is still plenty of ability for the opponent to play their game. Things start going wrong if there is a lot of obj sec on the table. Now my lists have zero obj sec at the moment, but I'm taking that chance with my eyes open.

Decurion not offensive? Have you played with a Destroyer Cult? Judicator Battalion? Wraiths with Beamers? And then all the normal firepower Necrons have?

They're still not picking up models Tau/Eldar fast.

Tau aren't that crazy anymore. And Eldar, well, as soon as their 7th edition book comes out and the Serpent shield is toned down, they won't be too much of an issue anymore. And even so, no we don't have a ton of 60" Ignores cover S7, our durability makes up for it, and we still have more firepower than a lot of other armies out there.

I'll take my chances against the Necrons and skip the 60" S7 spam. There's no guarantee that GW is going to fix that, and they might leave it as a big FU to the players.

And yes, Tau can still make you pick up models VERY quickly if you are a marine player.

BTW, any Slaneesh Psyker can get Blind. Warp Talons have it too upon Deep Strike, so you could theoretically counter-drop them onto units like Destroyers to defend your own lines. Scatter manipulation would help. Typhus looks like he can potentially defeat coil Wraiths at cost, Force weapons are what you want to go for and he even has the Initiative to strike first.

They're not "good units" -- I'm just trying to point out Necrons encourage some very unorthodox thinking to counter them.

Yoyoyo wrote:
BTW, any Slaneesh Psyker can get Blind. Warp Talons have it too upon Deep Strike, so you could theoretically counter-drop them onto units like Destroyers to defend your own lines. Scatter manipulation would help. Typhus looks like he can potentially defeat coil Wraiths at cost, Force weapons are what you want to go for and he even has the Initiative to strike first.

They're not "good units" -- I'm just trying to point out Necrons encourage some very unorthodox thinking to counter them.

Typhus is unwieldy.

Yoyoyo wrote:
BTW, any Slaneesh Psyker can get Blind. Warp Talons have it too upon Deep Strike, so you could theoretically counter-drop them onto units like Destroyers to defend your own lines. Scatter manipulation would help. Typhus looks like he can potentially defeat coil Wraiths at cost, Force weapons are what you want to go for and he even has the Initiative to strike first.

They're not "good units" -- I'm just trying to point out Necrons encourage some very unorthodox thinking to counter them.

So list tailor to beat them got it.

 Orock wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
BTW, any Slaneesh Psyker can get Blind. Warp Talons have it too upon Deep Strike, so you could theoretically counter-drop them onto units like Destroyers to defend your own lines. Scatter manipulation would help. Typhus looks like he can potentially defeat coil Wraiths at cost, Force weapons are what you want to go for and he even has the Initiative to strike first.

They're not "good units" -- I'm just trying to point out Necrons encourage some very unorthodox thinking to counter them.

So list tailor to beat them got it.

Yeah...that's all I'm getting from that

Melee Helbrute is terrible, and tends to get shredder by a wraith swarm let alone the REST of the entire army behind it, the cultists won't even make it still.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Typhus is unwieldy.

He's also I5, I missed that too. But it did show me throwing out a lot of WS5 Instant Death attacks at I6 will cut down a ton of incoming damage, which is desirable. It actually seems a lot more effective than just absorbing the hit with blobs.

Maybe you could pump Ahriman's Force Weapon to I8 with Warp Speed. Or, alternatively get a DP up to S8 and double out Wraiths with a toughness debuff. Given lower initiative and Instant Death, they will die more or less like TH/SS Terminators.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Melee Helbrute is terrible, and tends to get shredder by a wraith swarm let alone the REST of the entire army behind it, the cultists won't even make it still.

Seems more effective than a Dark Apostle, though.

Shooting down ideas is fine, but usually it's to work towards more effective ones. Feel free to contribute your own.

Seems more effective than a Dark Apostle, though.

Which is typically another terrible option, course thats the problem with CSM, many things in it but like the usual poor kellydex it typically has the good, the bad, and the oh god why.

The problem is Cultists won't be getting up in any typical fashion, I've had enough murdered outright by Tesla to know that weight of numbers doesn't work as well, elite options not as well either because once Wraiths get next to them they aren't exactly "Elite" so much as "Chunks of elite spread across the board"

Which is why I'm baffled in trying to discover a method for CSM that will work.

You can put that Fearless bubble onto any vehicle if you want to stick with Cultists, put it on a Sicaran if it's more your style.

I think Cultists are a dicey solution alone, they have no incoming damage mitigation. Not committing a Dark Apostle will help, but you still need to lower the Wraiths down to 4-5 kills per phase. AM can manage this by rerolling failed saves but I'm not sure what CSM can bring to the table.

I'll keep thinking about it, the problem is not suggesting something too complex to be practical.

Why should I feel bad for something that is legal?

 mondo80 wrote:
Why should I feel bad for something that is legal?

Oh so many issues with this statement and line of thinking...

There's all sorts of things that are legal. In 40k, in other games, in real life. As a general reply to statements like this, there's always "Just because you *can*, doesn't necessarily mean you *should*."

So if there is a player who has a certain playstyle ( he loves to use a deathwing army) that he doesn't change too much tactically and you bring an army tailored to annihilate him, should you feel bad when you wipe his army?

 mondo80 wrote:
So if there is a player who has a certain playstyle ( he loves to use a deathwing army) that he doesn't change too much tactically and you bring an army tailored to annihilate him, should you feel bad when you wipe his army?

In the provided example, yes. Yes you should. Tailoring a list to beat a fluffy DW army is like kicking a defenseless puppy.

In more general terms, remember that you are playing a game for fun (unless it is a tournament, then by all means wipe the opponent as hard as you can). If your opponents are not having fun, then you will soon find less people are willing to play with you.

 mondo80 wrote:
So if there is a player who has a certain playstyle ( he loves to use a deathwing army) that he doesn't change too much tactically and you bring an army tailored to annihilate him, should you feel bad when you wipe his army?

Two things.

First, list tailoring in general is typically considered to something of a dick move unless there's some particularly special reason or there's literally no other way to defeat that kind of opponent. (note: there's a difference between list tailoring an adapting an army list to face certain threats, e.g. overloading everything with AP2 guns to specifically defeat a small 2+sv army versus including AP2 weapons amongst a range of weapons in a TAC army list)

Second, if you're tailoring to beat a Deathwing, army, something largely considered to be a relatively weak army, the above goes double or triple because it wasn't necessary to beat him and the game was likely a waste of both players time.

If someone is bringing the same army over and over, it's usually a TAC army that they built to play against anything and anyone, or a themed army. Now, anyone can tailor a list to beat an army like that, especially if they've seen it and played it a bunch of times. There's no real skill in that, and if you're tailoring to just stomp it into the ground, just because, well, yeah, that's something you should avoid. The outcome of the game is not exactly in doubt, you won't exactly be challenging the capabilities of your generalship it's not in the spirit of the game, and there's just not much reason to play something out like that in general.

So, yeah, you absolutely should feel bad.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Ok, here is an Idea for CSM. Try 20x Cultists screening a Helbrute. This will only work if you take "4th Quadrant Legacy", it's going to grant Fearless within 12" to all your cultists. It also has the bonus of giving you a 4++ when your Helbrute has 1HP.

With 2x melee weapons giving your Helbrute 3x S10 attacks, you will ID Wraiths every time you get through the 3++. That's a 210pt Combo so you will stand a decent chance at points depending on how things play out on the table.

Or just take a helcult, which gives you the 3+ cover and makes 2 squads of cultists fearless (and get zealot when the brute dies)

 Vaktathi wrote:

 mondo80 wrote:
So if there is a player who has a certain playstyle ( he loves to use a deathwing army) that he doesn't change too much tactically and you bring an army tailored to annihilate him, should you feel bad when you wipe his army?

Two things.

First, list tailoring in general is typically considered to something of a dick move unless there's some particularly special reason or there's literally no other way to defeat that kind of opponent. (note: there's a difference between list tailoring an adapting an army list to face certain threats, e.g. overloading everything with AP2 guns to specifically defeat a small 2+sv army versus including AP2 weapons amongst a range of weapons in a TAC army list)

Second, if you're tailoring to beat a Deathwing, army, something largely considered to be a relatively weak army, the above goes double or triple because it wasn't necessary to beat him and the game was likely a waste of both players time.

If someone is bringing the same army over and over, it's usually a TAC army that they built to play against anything and anyone, or a themed army. Now, anyone can tailor a list to beat an army like that, especially if they've seen it and played it a bunch of times. There's no real skill in that, and if you're tailoring to just stomp it into the ground, just because, well, yeah, that's something you should avoid. The outcome of the game is not exactly in doubt, you won't exactly be challenging the capabilities of your generalship it's not in the spirit of the game, and there's just not much reason to play something out like that in general.

So, yeah, you absolutely should feel bad.

QFT.

There are two people in my club who liked to tailor against anything and everything, not just against people who rarely change their list much, like myself, but against anyone; come over and check over their list and go build a hard counter, whether it's really neccessary or not.

Both of them stopped getting opponents, one guy learned and stopped doing it, and one hasn't and finds himself extremely isolated socially through constant dickish moves. The whole "it's legal so it's okay" is a complete fallacy, as GW's model is entirely based on providing as few restrictions as possible and harp on the fact that you should be making a mutually agreeable game your opponent within this very open framework.

It expects good, camaraderie behaviour to make decent use of their garbage ruleset. If that environment is super competitive, swell, if not, then you should totally feel bad or being a dick to your opponents and friends. Speaking personally, my own friendship with the unchanging WAACer has been very strained by his continued abuse of the ruleset and other people at the club because he values winning above all else in a social project, and has made the whole club quite toxic. Don't be that guy.

Ok so a bad example on my part, how about:

Should you feel bad for using a formation from any book applicable to your army that gives you a bit of a bonus?

That's pretty much what a decurion is.

 mondo80 wrote:
Ok so a bad example on my part, how about:

Should you feel bad for using a formation from any book applicable to your army that gives you a bit of a bonus?

That's pretty much what a decurion is.

You shouldn't, no. But then again, an argument could be made for "Should you feel bad using Wave Serpents when it's obviously in your codex and can be taken in boat tons? No!"

So, yeah....

 mondo80 wrote:
Ok so a bad example on my part, how about:

Should you feel bad for using a formation from any book applicable to your army that gives you a bit of a bonus?

That's pretty much what a decurion is.

I believe the answer is "if it feels brokenly good, yes."

For example, I could be playing the triple stormraven deep strike assault formation in friendly games, (ones large enough that the formation becomes stellar,) but the rules for it are way over in that guy territory, and I can't imagine an opponent having fun by showing up to the table, watching 3 stormravens fly in from an otherwise empty table edge, and then seeing a mass of drop pods land exactly where they want, and guys and dreadnoughts walking right into his troops and tanks without them getting anything more than one overwatch shot off.

I would feel bad in magic if I was using a vintage tourney deck against a kitchen table player. I would feel bad playing basketball with an average 10 year old, (I'm 6'3" and have played for years,) and I'd feel bad winning with something obviously unbalanced in most any other game, like say magic barrier + avalanche in Quest 64. That's purely legit in the confines of the game's rules, but spamming them together makes you invincible and wins every battle.

I agree with a post I saw quite a while ago, that the decurion is definitely on the "pull punches" list. It should be stored in a glass case that says "break in case of cocky ignorant TFG."

Fielding an overpowering army in a casual setting is poor social etiquette, but as stated it's a context thing. If a 'cocky ignorant TFG' is unhappy to lose to Decurion with his own carefully constructed power list, how valid is the complaint?

Returning to the CSM vs. Wraith puzzle, I checked out that Helcult dataslate and found out about the Power Scourge. This thing is decent at levelling the playing field, 1/3 of the time Wraiths will hit on 5's and the Helbrute now hits on 3's. At equal points (3x Wraiths, 1x Helbrute) it looks like it's 50/50 who wins.

So maybe there is some potential there. At the very least, it's going to hold up much better than a Dark Apostle, and you can free up an HQ slot for another choice.

The Decurion has bands of power. From 550 to about 900 it's powerful, then from about 1400 to 1750, then again from about 2400+. This is based on the reclaimation legion, and the best two formations which are destroyer cult and canoptek harvest. It's tricky to build a good all round list at 2000 using those three formations.

Outside those bands / formations it's still pretty powerful but more powerful, usable and killy lists can be established with a CAD.

Ffyllotek wrote:
The Decurion has bands of power. From 550 to about 900 it's powerful, then from about 1400 to 1750, then again from about 2400+. This is based on the reclaimation legion, and the best two formations which are destroyer cult and canoptek harvest. It's tricky to build a good all round list at 2000 using those three formations.

Outside those bands / formations it's still pretty powerful but more powerful, usable and killy lists can be established with a CAD.

Can you even field a Decurion at 550 points? Isn't the Reclamation Legion alone with no upgrades something like 700 points?

 Happyjew wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
The Decurion has bands of power. From 550 to about 900 it's powerful, then from about 1400 to 1750, then again from about 2400+. This is based on the reclaimation legion, and the best two formations which are destroyer cult and canoptek harvest. It's tricky to build a good all round list at 2000 using those three formations.

Outside those bands / formations it's still pretty powerful but more powerful, usable and killy lists can be established with a CAD.

Can you even field a Decurion at 550 points? Isn't the Reclamation Legion alone with no upgrades something like 700 points?

479ish for base reclamation, 65 points for 5 flayed ones. So, 544 is the minimum playable points limit.

 Happyjew wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
The Decurion has bands of power. From 550 to about 900 it's powerful, then from about 1400 to 1750, then again from about 2400+. This is based on the reclaimation legion, and the best two formations which are destroyer cult and canoptek harvest. It's tricky to build a good all round list at 2000 using those three formations.

Outside those bands / formations it's still pretty powerful but more powerful, usable and killy lists can be established with a CAD.

Can you even field a Decurion at 550 points? Isn't the Reclamation Legion alone with no upgrades something like 700 points?

Yeah, the absolute barebones, no upgrades Decurion comes to 544. Enough for Shield Vanes on three Tomb Blades haha.

niv-mizzet wrote:

I agree with a post I saw quite a while ago, that the decurion is definitely on the "pull punches" list. It should be stored in a glass case that says "break in case of cocky ignorant TFG."

So we shouldn't play the Decurion except for those circumstances? Like, can't play it at all unless there's that one guy?

Like I said before. We have one Necron player in our group. He is brand new to the game so he still runs CADs. I'm trying to persuade him to switch over to Decurion.