Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

... it's an FFG game. Their encumbrance and movement rules are hilariously terrible, even before Space Marines get involved.

In my current Dark Heresy game, one of the characters is a 17 year old Tribal Psyker. She's *slightly* tougher than the average, but has devoted none of her XP to buying increases in STR or TGH, and can still strap on almost 200kg and walk around like it's nothing.

I'm pretty sure Space Marines are stated to be super fast in the fluff.

They are in FFG's game, where you play Movie Marines but, still, there's no escaping the scenario provided. Doesn't matter how fast they are, the way a Blast Ordnance weapon works, it doesn't save them.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.

Soak 48d10+120 pen 8

I have my doubts.

You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.

Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!

They split up and charge a-

Why are we even having this discussion?!

Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.

If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.

The thing is that their armor has it's own power for moving (hence the name "Power Armour"). You don't carry the armor, the armor carries you and all your gear (and that's why the neural interface of the black carapace is important).

 Swastakowey wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour?

No, they are arguably far faster. But FFG is just a game.

 Tyran wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.

Soak 48d10+120 pen 8

I have my doubts.

You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.

Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!

They split up and charge a-

Why are we even having this discussion?!

Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.

If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.

The thing is that their armor has it's own power for moving (hence the name "Power Armour"). You don't carry the armor, the armor carries you and all your gear (and that's why the neural interface of the black carapace is important).

Yep, but that doesn't solve the acceleration/deceleration issue along with the fact that "being powered" doesn't solve the weight issue. Nor does it solve many other issues. It is still impossible for a marine to move very quickly. Its just a bad design and idea through and through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour?

No, they are arguably far faster. But FFG is just a game.

How are they faster? Please explain... Unless they take off their armour, slim down and run on all fours for short sprints then they cannot be faster. They would probably need a tail for stability in this case. Sleek fur maybe?

 Swastakowey wrote:

Yep, but that doesn't solve the acceleration/deceleration issue along with the fact that "being powered" doesn't solve the weight issue. Nor does it solve many other issues. It is still impossible for a marine to move very quickly. Its just a bad design and idea through and through.

You are aware that this is science fiction, right?

Space Marines are clad in phlebotinum plating, they fire phlebotinum guns, hell, after all their enhancements they are pretty much MADE of phlebotinum.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.

Soak 48d10+120 pen 8

I have my doubts.

You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.

Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!

They split up and charge a-

Why are we even having this discussion?!

Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.

If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.

The thing is that their armor has it's own power for moving (hence the name "Power Armour"). You don't carry the armor, the armor carries you and all your gear (and that's why the neural interface of the black carapace is important).

Yep, but that doesn't solve the acceleration/deceleration issue along with the fact that "being powered" doesn't solve the weight issue. Nor does it solve many other issues. It is still impossible for a marine to move very quickly. Its just a bad design and idea through and through.

Well, this is a setting with fething daemons, it doesn't cares about what is or isn't possible.

So, demons are something we dont know about, so sure they aren't following any laws we have. Space Marines have legs... we know how legs work along with how things move and their limits. So if you don't care don't defend it. Simply say Ï like cartoons"and leave it at that.

I however was simply pointing out how absurd the idea of 52km an hour Space marines are. It is impossible to speed up that quickly and then stop within 5 seconds. Even Eldar, the race of fantasy perfection have teleportation to overcome this issue. Space marines do not.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Just use a squad mode ability, soak fire or something, then.

Soak 48d10+120 pen 8

I have my doubts.

You can subtract damage from each individually, so 48d10+120 is not correct. Consider in the BS penalty you will get, as well.

Marines drop down and exit the pod, Sprinting 72ish meters in the opening 5 seconds. You're really not going to hit them!

They split up and charge a-

Why are we even having this discussion?!

Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour? How do they stop? Even a car needs time to slow down with breaks. To also run that distance in... 5s would suggest they have a huge acceleration rate to reach the speed of 52KM an hour THEN at the same time slow down enough to actually do something.

If anything Space Marines would be very cumbersome and their only speed advantage would be longer legs. But that would be offset by the weight behind them. The whole idea of Marines being fast is laughable and no amount of "super stronk" will solve the issues they face with mobility.

The thing is that their armor has it's own power for moving (hence the name "Power Armour"). You don't carry the armor, the armor carries you and all your gear (and that's why the neural interface of the black carapace is important).

Yep, but that doesn't solve the acceleration/deceleration issue along with the fact that "being powered" doesn't solve the weight issue. Nor does it solve many other issues. It is still impossible for a marine to move very quickly. Its just a bad design and idea through and through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting a 2 legged mammal laden with armour gear and muscle can run at 52 kilometres an hour?

No, they are arguably far faster. But FFG is just a game.

How are they faster? Please explain... Unless they take off their armour, slim down and run on all fours for short sprints then they cannot be faster. They would probably need a tail for stability in this case. Sleek fur maybe?

Say it with me now.

"It's Space Fantasy, I should stop worrying about physics and nod and accept that everything runs on rule of cool."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
So, demons are something we dont know about, so sure they aren't following any laws we have. Space Marines have legs... we know how legs work along with how things move and their limits. So if you don't care don't defend it. Simply say Ï like cartoons"and leave it at that.

I however was simply pointing out how absurd the idea of 52km an hour Space marines are. It is impossible to speed up that quickly and then stop within 5 seconds. Even Eldar, the race of fantasy perfection have teleportation to overcome this issue. Space marines do not.

"It's just a show, I really should just relax".

Nah, especially when people use that to justify uncool stuff.

I am a historical player. Details like this is what I find fun. Nothing better than a book of cold hard facts.

If the only defence is ïts because it is" then the idea is probably not worth defending.

52KM road runner marines are not rule of cool. Their existence is a bain on the setting as it is. How they are taken seriously is beyond me... but thats subjective of course.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I am a historical player. Details like this is what I find fun. Nothing better than a book of cold hard facts.

If the only defence is ïts because it is" then the idea is probably not worth defending.

52KM road runner marines are not rule of cool. Their existence is a bain on the setting as it is. How they are taken seriously is beyond me... but thats subjective of course.

People trying to force IGhammer into a setting that is all about superhero Space Marines wrestling alien monsters and demons is beyond me. CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC:

Accept thine place as lowly cannon fodder with flashlight guns and firecracker artillery, heathen. Thou shalt not find thine realism in this sanctuary of madness!

It's also fine to like 40k this OTT. No need to be condescending about it.

She says, putting condescending smileys in every other posts.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I am a historical player. Details like this is what I find fun. Nothing better than a book of cold hard facts.

If the only defence is ïts because it is" then the idea is probably not worth defending.

52KM road runner marines are not rule of cool. Their existence is a bain on the setting as it is. How they are taken seriously is beyond me... but thats subjective of course.

52kmph isn't even particularly impressive superspeed. You're talking as if Marines can do this.

I mean, you can pull speeds fast enough to catch up to and overtake jeeps in Crysis with the nanosuit and I don't think anyone particularly complains about that. You may as well whine about Iron Man being able to shrug off a tank shell and then blow up a tank with a single missile. This isn't hard science fiction where the author masturbates to his or her superficial understanding of science, this is the fantasy genre where the main rule is to maintain internal consistency within a story, and spanking to hard numbers will only be to the detriment of a story. Nobody comes to a fantasy story to hear about science and numbers, and splurging on schematics is the fastest way to lose most readers. It's not important, and no good author focuses on it outside of hard sci-fi.

Firstly, let's forget about the watsonian arguments and focus instead on the doylist meat. Space Marines are supposed to be super soldiers who are superior to baseline humans in every way. Their theme is that of a posthuman warrior; the next level of imperial soldiery. Thus to keep to this thematic, they are indeed superior to a guardsman in every physical manner and most mental ones. They think faster (their reflexes are substantially superior), they're far stronger, they can heal from wounds that a human would exsaguinate from a dozen times in minute sand be fine before breakfast, and they are indeed, simply just faster than people.

Through pure doylist thematics, enhanced is indeed an appropriate power for the Space Marines to have. Whinging about trite details like numbers is precisely as futile as complaining about Mario violating the conservation of mass every time he eats a super mushroom.

 Kain wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I am a historical player. Details like this is what I find fun. Nothing better than a book of cold hard facts.

If the only defence is ïts because it is" then the idea is probably not worth defending.

52KM road runner marines are not rule of cool. Their existence is a bain on the setting as it is. How they are taken seriously is beyond me... but thats subjective of course.

52kmph isn't even particularly impressive superspeed. You're talking as if Marines can do this.

I mean, you can pull speeds fast enough to catch up to and overtake jeeps in Crysis with the nanosuit and I don't think anyone particularly complains about that. You may as well whine about Iron Man being able to shrug off a tank shell and then blow up a tank with a single missile. This isn't hard science fiction where the author masturbates to his or her superficial understanding of science, this is the fantasy genre where the main rule is to maintain internal consistency within a story, and spanking to hard numbers will only be to the detriment of a story. Nobody comes to a fantasy story to hear about science and numbers, and splurging on schematics is the fastest way to lose most readers. It's not important, and no good author focuses on it outside of hard sci-fi.

Firstly, let's forget about the watsonian arguments and focus instead on the doylist meat. Space Marines are supposed to be super soldiers who are superior to baseline humans in every way. Their theme is that of a posthuman warrior; the next level of imperial soldiery. Thus to keep to this thematic, they are indeed superior to a guardsman in every physical manner and most mental ones. They think faster (their reflexes are substantially superior), they're far stronger, they can heal from wounds that a human would exsaguinate from a dozen times in minute sand be fine before breakfast, and they are indeed, simply just faster than people.

Through pure doylist thematics, enhanced is indeed an appropriate power for the Space Marines to have. Whinging about trite details like numbers is precisely as futile as complaining about Mario violating the conservation of mass every time he eats a super mushroom.

Woah woah... 52km is not impressive? Being able to reach that speed (something my car... designed to move me quickly, cannot do) in 5 seconds while having the ability to stop within that quickly would make me a billionaire. Its not understanding of science its common sense mate. Anybody can look on the road and see all this happening.

Secondly, the idea of being super soldiers is there... but the execution is poor. They dress for Napoleonic warfare, are huge, heavy, expensive and carry the most logistically improbable guns known to man. That is a poor execution of the best soldiers known to man. When all their bonuses are actually negatives it defeats the purpose. Saying things like "they are silent guerilla warfare specialists who ambush and wipe out armies with rapid speed" doesnt make sense when everything they are/have works against this. Its like having a species of cow like mamals and then saying they are the top predator. When they have non of the characteristics to get them there. Marines are smart (apparently) but are depicted as never retreating, often instead finding a nice hill to die on. They are portrayed as fast yet have none of the characteristics of speed beyond ït says they do". The list goes on.

Its not hard to make things scary but at the same time make them scary on a real basis. Why was the first aliens movie scary? Because that was the first time a "realistic" bad creature was portrayed. It wasn't a cartoonish bug man or a Giant spider with wings. It was actually a thought out killer. Of course this changed as movies went on... but the point is things can be scary and at the same time not sound like a comedy.

I did silently whine about Iron Man (and many others did too) shrugging off a tank round by the way. He should have died right there. I just don't like marvel enough to care.

Anyway I am just pointing out the ridiculousness of the premise and the only counter is "it says so and is cool". And thats fine if you like it.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I am a historical player. Details like this is what I find fun. Nothing better than a book of cold hard facts.

If the only defence is ïts because it is" then the idea is probably not worth defending.

52KM road runner marines are not rule of cool. Their existence is a bain on the setting as it is. How they are taken seriously is beyond me... but thats subjective of course.

52kmph isn't even particularly impressive superspeed. You're talking as if Marines can do this.

I mean, you can pull speeds fast enough to catch up to and overtake jeeps in Crysis with the nanosuit and I don't think anyone particularly complains about that. You may as well whine about Iron Man being able to shrug off a tank shell and then blow up a tank with a single missile. This isn't hard science fiction where the author masturbates to his or her superficial understanding of science, this is the fantasy genre where the main rule is to maintain internal consistency within a story, and spanking to hard numbers will only be to the detriment of a story. Nobody comes to a fantasy story to hear about science and numbers, and splurging on schematics is the fastest way to lose most readers. It's not important, and no good author focuses on it outside of hard sci-fi.

Firstly, let's forget about the watsonian arguments and focus instead on the doylist meat. Space Marines are supposed to be super soldiers who are superior to baseline humans in every way. Their theme is that of a posthuman warrior; the next level of imperial soldiery. Thus to keep to this thematic, they are indeed superior to a guardsman in every physical manner and most mental ones. They think faster (their reflexes are substantially superior), they're far stronger, they can heal from wounds that a human would exsaguinate from a dozen times in minute sand be fine before breakfast, and they are indeed, simply just faster than people.

Through pure doylist thematics, enhanced is indeed an appropriate power for the Space Marines to have. Whinging about trite details like numbers is precisely as futile as complaining about Mario violating the conservation of mass every time he eats a super mushroom.

Woah woah... 52km is not impressive? Being able to reach that speed (something my car... designed to move me quickly, cannot do) in 5 seconds while having the ability to stop within that quickly would make me a billionaire. Its not understanding of science its common sense mate. Anybody can look on the road and see all this happening.

Secondly, the idea of being super soldiers is there... but the execution is poor. They dress for Napoleonic warfare, are huge, heavy, expensive and carry the most logistically improbable guns known to man. That is a poor execution of the best soldiers known to man. When all their bonuses are actually negatives it defeats the purpose. Saying things like "they are silent guerilla warfare specialists who ambush and wipe out armies with rapid speed" doesnt make sense when everything they are/have works against this. Its like having a species of cow like mamals and then saying they are the top predator. When they have non of the characteristics to get them there. Marines are smart (apparently) but are depicted as never retreating, often instead finding a nice hill to die on. They are portrayed as fast yet have none of the characteristics of speed beyond ït says they do". The list goes on.

Its not hard to make things scary but at the same time make them scary on a real basis. Why was the first aliens movie scary? Because that was the first time a "realistic" bad creature was portrayed. It wasn't a cartoonish bug man or a Giant spider with wings. It was actually a thought out killer. Of course this changed as movies went on... but the point is things can be scary and at the same time not sound like a comedy.

I did silently whine about Iron Man (and many others did too) shrugging off a tank round by the way. He should have died right there. I just don't like marvel enough to care.

Anyway I am just pointing out the ridiculousness of the premise and the only counter is "it says so and is cool". And thats fine if you like it.

52km is so unimpressive by the standards of fiction that it doesn't really bat an eye. Not when fantasy is full of examples of heroes casually going supersonic or even some running faster than light itself without experiencing any of the consequences of it. Like, who the hell is going to care that the human body can't pull those speeds? If physics gets in the way of a good story or character concept, out physics goes. This is the first rule I learned as a writer and I believe it is the most important rule for fiction; the only rules that should matter are the ones you set for the story. Realism only matters if you want it to matter for your story. But if you're writing high fantasy? Man feth the astrophysics course, here, have two guys wrestling so hard that the planet shatters and breaks beneath their feet.

And again, you're arguing from a watsonian perspective when the only thing that matters is the doylist one. Yes there are watsonian issues with the space marines. But from the doylist stand point of them being essentially the knightly brotherhoods of yesteryear except in space and given space fantasy updates (much like how the Jedi are Samurai Knights in space given a few updates here and there) there's nothing really wrong. They're big, burly knightly warriors who stand head and shoulders above the capabilities of the rabble who are less blessed by circumstance or training than they. Only whereas knights simply had far better equipment, training, diet, and education to the peasant levies, the Space Marines are physically superior, thus creating a further divide between this post-human warrior nobility and normal people.

Also, in the comics, Iron Man can shrug off nuclear warheads to the face with zero damage to him or his armor (currently it wouldn't even make him flinch) and his current suit is capable of defeating all the world's conventional militaries in a few seconds (indeed at this point the army literally does not matter to any high-end metahuman in marvel or DC). The movie version is very much toned down.

See everything you said boils down to ïts what is written".

I will point out that a knight was easily beaten by simply standing on them as they ran away. In a period of formation fighting it wasnt individual strength that mattered but the strength of the group. See you can't use real life examples to defend stupid claims like road runner marines.

Now the real life knight is a cool idea and setting that also works. Unlike the Space Marine concept. They have limitations and make sense. The Space Marine concept is a bunch of kids listing abilities to beat the other kids. My guys can lift whole planets! Nuhuh my guy can life suns with one finger! Its simply a lame concept. In my opinion.

There needs to be a sensible balance.

 Bobthehero wrote:
She says, putting condescending smileys in every other posts.

I know. Sorry.

 Swastakowey wrote:
See everything you said boils down to ïts what is written".

I will point out that a knight was easily beaten by simply standing on them as they ran away. In a period of formation fighting it wasnt individual strength that mattered but the strength of the group. See you can't use real life examples to defend stupid claims like road runner marines.

Now the real life knight is a cool idea and setting that also works. Unlike the Space Marine concept. They have limitations and make sense. The Space Marine concept is a bunch of kids listing abilities to beat the other kids. My guys can lift whole planets! Nuhuh my guy can life suns with one finger! Its simply a lame concept. In my opinion.

There needs to be a sensible balance.

Space Marine limits are pretty well in the realm of what we comic book readers call "street level characters." Essentially it's an army of spidermen who trade spider sense for armor and web shooters for bolters. They're not especially superpowerful compared to what else can be found in the setting, they're just substantially superior to humans. So what if they make guardsmen seem weak and small individually? That's the whole point. This is a fantasy setting of epic heroes and dastardly villains. The Space Marines are that band of few who push back the tides of darkness through superhuman feats despite being outmatched in numbers, which is just like virtually every other heroic organization in the entire history of fantasy. Like, it's the same operating principle behind things like the Grey Wardens in Dragon age or the Avengers in Marvel. The bad guys may outnumber the good guys, but the elite of the good guys generally tears right through the rank and file of the bad guys for the epic confrontation with the main villain who drives the plot and provides the main fight.

I'm also going to take a few seconds to laugh at your misconception of medieval warfare before continuing because you clearly don't know much about pre-industrial conflict. A small handful of knights was more than enough to completely shatter an army of hundreds if not thousands of peasant levies. Once maybe twenty knights got the charge in, the peasants generally broke, ran and fled for their lives once the charge ran right through their shaky defenses. Knights did not dominate warfare until the mass adoption of pike and shot tactics because of the honor system, they did it because there was legitimately nothing that could stop a knight charge (short of another knight charge) over good terrain barring horse archery until said pike and shot tactics. Battles like crecy and agincourt were won by the guy with fewer knights because of a comedy of errors on the French's part and utterly abysmal terrain. However, small formations like the Teutonic Knights could, and would routinely shatter just about everything they came across. Lithuania had virtually nothing that could stop a well organized charge by the Teutonic Knights until it made an alliance with Poland to get the numbers to oppose the Teutonic and Livonian orders.

It's about telling a story, and the Space Marine's niche is basically being the A-team, the Avengers to the Imperial Guard's SHIELD.

 Swastakowey wrote:
See everything you said boils down to ïts what is written".

I will point out that a knight was easily beaten by simply standing on them as they ran away. In a period of formation fighting it wasnt individual strength that mattered but the strength of the group. See you can't use real life examples to defend stupid claims like road runner marines.

Now the real life knight is a cool idea and setting that also works. Unlike the Space Marine concept. They have limitations and make sense. The Space Marine concept is a bunch of kids listing abilities to beat the other kids. My guys can lift whole planets! Nuhuh my guy can life suns with one finger! Its simply a lame concept. In my opinion.

There needs to be a sensible balance.

There is some degree of difference between Marines moving faster etc. than what we believe is possible with today's science, and lifting a planet.

If you don't like all this crazy stuff, why go for 40k? Pretty much every faction has this BS (even IG with their psykers).

Pretty much every faction has psykers (or tech) that can do crazy stuff like stop time, for example. Seriously. Stop time. And you think running fast is unrealistic?

 Kain wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
See everything you said boils down to ïts what is written".

I will point out that a knight was easily beaten by simply standing on them as they ran away. In a period of formation fighting it wasnt individual strength that mattered but the strength of the group. See you can't use real life examples to defend stupid claims like road runner marines.

Now the real life knight is a cool idea and setting that also works. Unlike the Space Marine concept. They have limitations and make sense. The Space Marine concept is a bunch of kids listing abilities to beat the other kids. My guys can lift whole planets! Nuhuh my guy can life suns with one finger! Its simply a lame concept. In my opinion.

There needs to be a sensible balance.

Space Marine limits are pretty well in the realm of what we comic book readers call "street level characters." Essentially it's an army of spidermen who trade spider sense for armor and web shooters for bolters. They're not especially superpowerful compared to what else can be found in the setting, they're just substantially superior to humans. So what if they make guardsmen seem weak and small individually? That's the whole point. This is a fantasy setting of epic heroes and dastardly villains. The Space Marines are that band of few who push back the tides of darkness through superhuman feats despite being outmatched in numbers, which is just like virtually every other heroic organization in the entire history of fantasy. Like, it's the same operating principle behind things like the Grey Wardens in Dragon age or the Avengers in Marvel. The bad guys may outnumber the good guys, but the elite of the good guys generally tears right through the rank and file of the bad guys for the epic confrontation with the main villain who drives the plot and provides the main fight.

I'm also going to take a few seconds to laugh at your misconception of medieval warfare before continuing because you clearly don't know much about pre-industrial conflict. A small handful of knights was more than enough to completely shatter an army of hundreds if not thousands of peasant levies. Once maybe twenty knights got the charge in, the peasants generally broke, ran and fled for their lives once the charge ran right through their shaky defenses. Knights did not dominate warfare until the mass adoption of pike and shot tactics because of the honor system, they did it because there was legitimately nothing that could stop a knight charge (short of another knight charge) over good terrain barring horse archery until said pike and shot tactics. Battles like crecy and agincourt were won by the guy with fewer knights because of a comedy of errors on the French's part and utterly abysmal terrain. However, small formations like the Teutonic Knights could, and would routinely shatter just about everything they came across. Lithuania had virtually nothing that could stop a well organized charge by the Teutonic Knights until it made an alliance with Poland to get the numbers to oppose the Teutonic and Livonian orders.

It's about telling a story, and the Space Marine's niche is basically being the A-team, the Avengers to the Imperial Guard's SHIELD.

No... Knights did not simply go round lopping off heads. Did you know Cavalry will refuse to charge into something they cannot go through? All you need to do is stand in a group of 50 people and the best the horses can do is go around you. Horses will not run into something on purpose. So how then can a knight on horse back take out hundreds if all they need to do is stand there? Heck in the Napoleonic era infantry used to just lie down so horses would run over them since the swords could not reach the ground and the horse would not stand on a person. Knights fell to crossbows with ease. I mean if you dont know how cavalry works then dont try use it as an example. Formations win battles not knights. Knights only win if the enemy is scattered. If the enemy dont scatter the horses refuse to charge. Its not like the movies where the horses crash into people...

Also dismounted knights had plenty of means to defeat them such as hooks and other heavier weapons. Knights were powerful, but at the end of the day they dont win wars. They need support via other formations and groups.

In short its more complex than you make it out to be.

I wont argue Space marines any more. Its clear you love superman and I love facts. Nothing wrong with either... (well ish.. once clearly sucks )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
See everything you said boils down to ïts what is written".

I will point out that a knight was easily beaten by simply standing on them as they ran away. In a period of formation fighting it wasnt individual strength that mattered but the strength of the group. See you can't use real life examples to defend stupid claims like road runner marines.

Now the real life knight is a cool idea and setting that also works. Unlike the Space Marine concept. They have limitations and make sense. The Space Marine concept is a bunch of kids listing abilities to beat the other kids. My guys can lift whole planets! Nuhuh my guy can life suns with one finger! Its simply a lame concept. In my opinion.

There needs to be a sensible balance.

There is some degree of difference between Marines moving faster etc. than what we believe is possible with today's science, and lifting a planet.

If you don't like all this crazy stuff, why go for 40k? Pretty much every faction has this BS (even IG with their psykers).

Pretty much every faction has psykers (or tech) that can do crazy stuff like stop time, for example. Seriously. Stop time. And you think running fast is unrealistic?

Yep, do I have to like it all though? IG may have psykers. See mine don't. But I dont have an issue with IG psykers because most are for communication. Which is a cool concept. Stopping time cannot be possible and is beyond stupid. Using a psyker to send a message is a nice balance. Which is better than lifting planets. To me the possibility of a Space marine moving faster than a startled cow (cow would be faster) is about as believable as a baby throwing planets in space.

 Kain wrote:
If physics gets in the way of a good story or character concept, out physics goes. This is the first rule I learned as a writer and I believe it is the most important rule for fiction; the only rules that should matter are the ones you set for the story. Realism only matters if you want it to matter for your story.

Then you learned a really bad lesson. You can only throw physics out as long as the story is still plausible. Nobody is going to care if, after spending a few hours doing calculations, it turns out that your thermodynamics math was slightly off. But if the average reader's reaction is "WTF that makes no sense" then you have a problem. If you're writing in a genre that isn't "ridiculous superhero stories" and a character punches someone so hard that the planet breaks in half then nobody is going to be able to suspend disbelief and accept that your story makes any sense.

The problem with space marines is that their high-end abilities break this rule. If you think about it for even a moment they don't make any sense, and it really ruins the story. So IMO the way to treat those high-end examples is as religious myths and in-universe propaganda. A space marine can't literally survive a direct hit from a titan, just like Achilles (if a real person ever existed to inspire the character) couldn't literally survive any wound that wasn't to his foot. But the Imperium needs its martyrs and heroes to inspire its population to cling desperately to survival for a few more minutes, so an army of elite soldiers with a power level roughly equivalent to their tabletop rules becomes a larger-than-life band of epic warriors with god-like powers and almost unimaginable victories in battle.

Well, then that is just you ignoring most of the setting., Swasta.

I mean, there is actually wrong with that. The lore lets you cherrypick. But doing that and calling everything else stupid is not the way to go.

I disagree with BobtheHero's interpretation, for example, but it isn't stupid. It's pretty cool, in fact. I just prefer mine, and I can't have both at the same time!

 Ashiraya wrote:
If you don't like all this crazy stuff, why go for 40k? Pretty much every faction has this BS (even IG with their psykers).

Because you can easily ignore most of it as long as you treat the written fluff as Imperial mythology (much like every real-world example of religious myths), not literal truth. If you consider the power level of stuff in the tabletop game to be a reasonably accurate representation of the "real" armies then it's no less plausible than scifi in general.

But the tabletop game is utterly absurd in itself.

 Ashiraya wrote:
But the tabletop game is utterly absurd in itself.

That's why I said "as a reasonably accurate representation", not "as literal truth". So, power armor probably doesn't have exactly a 33% chance of failing when hit by a lasgun (and how it fails has more to do with accumulated damage than individual attempts to breach it), but the ~11% chance of wounding a marine with a lasgun shot is at least close to the truth. Whether it's a 15% chance or a 5% chance the end result is approximately the same: the marine can probably survive stray lasgun fire at long range or risk taking a burst on his armor to duck out from cover and kill a target, but it's not complete invulnerability and the marine still has to use cover/suppressing fire/etc because concentrated lasgun fire will eventually overwhelm his armor and kill him.

I'd also point out that suffering from delusions that 40K is realistic at all is just that, suffering from delusions. 40K is Warhammer Fantasy in space. Space Marines are Bretts in space, and retain their demigodlike superhuman nature (you're better off fighting Chaos Warriors than Bretts), Chaos Warriors are Chaos Space Marines. The Empire are represented by the Imperial Guard and the various other imperial factions. High Elves/Wood Elves are clearly Eldar and Exodites, while the Dark Elves are Dark Eldar. Etc. It's fantasy. You're in the wrong franchise if you're looking for Science Fiction- 40K has never been that.

Oh, and the Imperial Guard is no less ridiculous than Space Marines, and in some ares are both more stupid and more ridiculous. While the Rhino chassis is actually fairly sensible, pretty much every Imperial Guard vehicle is mind boggingly stupid and should either not work at all due to having less clearance than a Zamboni, or being so massive it gets stuck in the mud like the Ratte would have. Their basic firearms violate conservation of energy somewhere as a campfire somehow charges their ammunition to such a degree that it provides kilojoule lasers.

Plus there's the problem of using infantry at all, when at the Imperium's tech level battles should be conducted entirely by ships with planets being abandoned in favor of post-scarcity mobile artificial planets (which the Imperium, Eldar, and Tau all have) with soldiers being completely irrelevant as battles are decided by precise lance battery fire. "Muh TT" isn't an excuse, because the TT is actually MORE absurd than 40K in many areas- like naked humans being able to tank shots from 12mm or 20mm weapons without being turned into a gory pulp. 40K doesn't make sense. You seriously are living in hilarious denial if you think otherwise. Every faction is utterly stupid and will give a very painful headache if you look at them too long- the Guard just disguise their stupidity somewhat better.

And "it's propaganda" doesn't work at all in any attempt to wash away the Black Library. Those books can't exist in universe as either the material contained within them would get anyone and everyone found possessing them executed, or they can't exist to begin with as the narrator is omnipotent and discussing secrets that are only known by like ten people in the entire Milky Way. GW's propaganda claim can't be used to justify or ignore anything, as it cannot work in application given the nature of the Imperium and many factions.

Trying to justify 40K as anything other than a toned down Marvel is hilarious when there's giant bugs that violate thermodynamics roaming around the universe or literal hellspawned daemons that drive people who gaze upon them insane.

Taffy17 wrote:
I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?

Well, take into account that the Marines are worth 100 Guardsmen because a squad of Marines would come into contact with only a limited amount of guardsmen at time and heavy/special weapons Guardsmen would probably be primary targets.

In case of Sisters of Battle the proportions would be very different because they both wear power armour and use Boltguns as basic weapons. Still they don't have the black carapace and other enhancements of the Astartes.

If you consider that Usain Bolt can accelerate to 44.7kph in about 7 seconds, with most of that speed being attributed to his ratio of fast twitch fibers (something marines would have in abundance, along with power armour supplementing this power based muscle fibers), his long limbs ( limbs that would be longer in 8ft marines) and a long stride distance (a marine could replicate this quite easyily), then take into account Usain has a sloppy accretion phase/technique (some biomechanists and physiologists state bolt could reach his top velocity possibly half a second earlier), it wouldn't be inconceivable that marines could double this due to their augmentations, and their increased mass being dissipated by increased muscles strength, power and power armour, plus probably increased acceleration, a marine could be running at a speed of 52kph in about 3 seconds.

For those stating that the weight of the marine would make them unable to move faster, just remember the 'engine' that is powering that weight. A near enough doubled cardio-respiratory system, with an endocrine system tailored to get near enough maximum levels of performance for a prolonged period, incredible recovery and adaptability to environments and lastly, what must be assumed is the most impeccable nutritional diet devised considering the amount of muscles it is constantly building/maintaining whilst also allowing for said performance.

Marines are literally superhuman. Absolutely ridiculous. That is also why they would wipe the floor with sisters of battle or guardsmen. It's hard to use certain tactics against marines like ambush etc when they can hear your from so far away and can run through most 'common' walls with ease to close the distance too you.

Skater are something else though, and I do not know enough about them to make a comparison to marines.

So yeah anyway, it depends on how fast the ordinance shell is, if the marine knows the direction it is coming from, whether it's smart and can track him and finally, how far it is away. No good hearing the shell, if it has travelled miles, it's going to be right on top of you already. They could most certainly outrun it's blast radius if they only need to acerbate to 52kmh, it just depends on how much prior warning they'd have for this, which is probably little.