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I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?

Marines are not worth much by themselves, and at least if we are talking table top, 100 guardsmen would smash a single tactical squad.

nocliper101 wrote:
Marines are not worth much by themselves, and at least if we are talking table top, 100 guardsmen would smash a single tactical squad.

I'm talking about in the fluff, hence why I posted this in the background forum, we all know how average Tac squads are on the table.

Taffy17 wrote:
I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?

There's a lot said about Space Marines. Put a single Space Marine against 100 guardsmen in a pitched firefight, fluff or game, and the Space Marine is dead in an instant. Rogal Dorn gave a far more conservative 1:10 estimate with other troops.

In general, what it really boils down to is who is writing the story and who is the protagonist. Space Marine power level is wildly, absurdly variable depending on who is doing the writing and from what perspective, or even when it was written (fluff from RT and 2E didn't have marines at anything near the power level they're often portrayed at in newer stuff typically).

I think one squad of marines would be the same as a Guard platoon in the fluff and be an equal fight, but yeah, depends who's writing.

Ok, so how do you think Sisters of Battle, Skitarii and Tempestus Scions compare?

I think it would depend on the engagement. For example, guard would be little more than useless in a lightning fast precision strike. On the other hand, space marines would be on slightly better than a guardsmen or two in trench warfare, since there is little room for the marine to use his abilities.

Also lot of the writing is from the view point of a Space Marine Captain or someone high ranked, making them even more awesome than everyone else. I would say 1:10 is about right. 1:50 if its a captain.

Taffy17 wrote:
I think its said that 1 Marine is worth 100 guardsman, so how many Scions, Skitarii or Sisters do you think 1 Marine would be worth?

Well quite a bit in any Dark Eldar Slave market - those Astartes boys give great value in the arena and if you just want something to hang on the wall and torture - well they can last for months with little food and no limbs...

Taffy17 wrote:
Ok, so how do you think Sisters of Battle, Skitarii and Tempestus Scions compare?

Well both are definitely better than your standard Guard but, it depends on the terrain and exp of those involved.

A squad of sisters could take on two or even three squads of Guard and win, but will take casualties worth mentioning.

Skitarii are less cut and dry. Depends on their modifications and what role they are geared up for so I'l leave this one open for interpretation of the individual.

My skew on the matter.

Deploy one Captain Titus.

Receive one dead Ork Waaagh and Chaos Space Marine warband.

I think its more exponential. A single space marine could probably take on 10 or so guardsmen.

A single terminator could probably handle a whole lot more.

A tactical squad could probably hold off a large platoon.

A company with support and vehicles could probably take out a regiment or two.

When you get to small combined arms with space marines, i think they have/become the biggest force multipliers.

aw_man wrote:
I think its more exponential. A single space marine could probably take on 10 or so guardsmen.

A single terminator could probably handle a whole lot more.

A tactical squad could probably hold off a large platoon.

A company with support and vehicles could probably take out a regiment or two.

When you get to small combined arms with space marines, i think they have/become the biggest force multipliers.

That would be Lanchester's law in action.

aw_man wrote:
I think its more exponential. A single space marine could probably take on 10 or so guardsmen.

A single terminator could probably handle a whole lot more.

A tactical squad could probably hold off a large platoon.

A company with support and vehicles could probably take out a regiment or two.

When you get to small combined arms with space marines, i think they have/become the biggest force multipliers.

As long as there's no meltaguns or plasma guns for lucky shots, a single Astartes could easily kill far, faaar more than ten guardsmen. Even in the open they can run at around automobile speeds to just jump and slaughter multiple squads like some nightmarish predatory cat. In an urban setting they're a complete nightmare- their acceleration rates and stealth turn it into a slasher flick with squads being picked off one by one. Especially if it's seriously tight quarters like a Hab Block or something with winding interconnected alleyways.

Yeah, that is how I see it as well.

One Marine is worth ten Guardsmen, Dorn said... But what is their wargear? Maybe he meant ten Guardsmen equipped with Shadowswords. They stand better chances with plasmas than with lasguns.

As long as the Guardsmen just have lasguns, bayonets and fists, he could go on forever.

As for what he actually is worth?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, that is how I see it as well.

One Marine is worth ten Guardsmen, Dorn said... But what is their wargear? Maybe he meant ten Guardsmen equipped with Shadowswords. They stand better chances with plasmas than with lasguns.

As long as the Guardsmen just have lasguns, bayonets and fists, he could go on forever.

As for what he actually is worth?

Spoiler:

I have no idea who came up with that nonsense that a current Marine's equipment for combat only costs 17,500. Having had to inventory more Crap then I ever want to see again in my life I can honestly say the real cost is at least another 10k on top of that, and thats before you get into special gear like scopes and thermals.

 Kain wrote:
Deploy one Captain Titus.

Receive one dead Ork Waaagh and Chaos Space Marine warband.

To be fair, Captain Titus was very lucky. He only took on a few Ork infantry at a time relatively speaking and only 3-5 Chaos Marines per engagement.

10 guardsmen with just lasgun would favor the Marine, 10 with a plasma or a meltagun and the Marine is going to have to need some really good target priority, which he has.

2-3 Scions can take out a Marine with just hotshots, yay for making most of the enemy wargear a joke

Don't know enough about the Skittari to comment.

As for Sisters, uh... Act of Faith would be a solid way for the Sister to keep up.

I always thought a marine was worth about 20 or so guardsmen but maybe about 10 scions or skitarii.

In a shooting game, the Marine has a slight advantage over the Sister - a Sister hit by a bolt round that doesn't penetrate could well go into static shock, while the Marine's interior biology is rather more resilient.

There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes).

Sisters are the only non-Marine force that can be reliably used to exterminate a Marine chapter, but that does ignore several salient facts: While the Marines outnumber the Sisters in absolute terms (there's about 80,000 battle sisters in the galaxy according to the 6e rulebook), the Sisters almost always have a much higher concentration of force.

I would say that a Marine is probably equivalent to three or four Battle Sisters on the field, but if you ask for support, you're more likely to get a hundred Sisters than you are to get twenty Marines (but more likely to get 1 Marine than 4 Sisters).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
In a shooting game, the Marine has a slight advantage over the Sister - a Sister hit by a bolt round that doesn't penetrate could well go into static shock, while the Marine's interior biology is rather more resilient.

There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes).

Sisters are the only non-Marine force that can be reliably used to exterminate a Marine chapter, but that does ignore several salient facts: While the Marines outnumber the Sisters in absolute terms (there's about 80,000 battle sisters in the galaxy according to the 6e rulebook), the Sisters almost always have a much higher concentration of force.

I would say that a Marine is probably equivalent to three or four Battle Sisters on the field, but if you ask for support, you're more likely to get a hundred Sisters than you are to get twenty Marines (but more likely to get 1 Marine than 4 Sisters).

I think it's a fair guess that Marines are slightly better marksmen then SOBs but it's just not eneugh to factor in the 1-6 rating of the game. Marines and Sisters both have a lifetime of training, coupled with state of the art battle armor. the on advantage marines are going to have is the biological factor, it'll be a factor but not a very big one, and not a big eneugh one, most likely to warrent a differant BS number

They are used for different things. Like for instance, the Skitarii would be better at taking on armor and other vehicles, while sisters would excel at killing infantry. i don't know much about scions, but i would equate them to the D99 Inquisitorial drop troops, and in that case they would do well in small scale objective based missions. because of the nature of the fluff, Marines are kind of like a Jack of All trades, Good at most things and excelling in very few areas, Where as guardsmen, skitarii, scions and sisters all have specialized roles. The other thing that makes space marines so deadly is their drop pod insertions and access to tech and vehicles that most other factions simply don't or under employ.

I would rate a marine at, I guess, 1,1 sisters, or something like that. Which approximately match their points on the rule, by a funny coincidence.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes).

Yeah, but the Sisters can rely on their fellow squadmates. The space marine has to be constantly on the lookout for potential traitors, along with deciding when is the best time for him to turn his coat. That does count quite a bit!

BrianDavion wrote:
Marines and Sisters both have a lifetime of training, coupled with state of the art battle armor. the on advantage marines are going to have is the biological factor, it'll be a factor but not a very big one, and not a big eneugh one, most likely to warrent a differant BS number

Sisters may have a better equipment though. They come from the wealthiest organization of the Imperium. Literally the wealthiest. And the most powerful second only, maybe, to the Administratum.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes)

I think it's a fair guess that Marines are slightly better marksmen then SOBs but it's just not eneugh to factor in the 1-6 rating of the game. Marines and Sisters both have a lifetime of training, coupled with state of the art battle armor. the on advantage marines are going to have is the biological factor, it'll be a factor but not a very big one, and not a big eneugh one, most likely to warrent a differant BS number

The thing is, they both have the best tech you can have in guns and targeting devices. What the Marine has is a supercharged body, but all the adrenaline that lets him react fast, move fast, take a hit and hit hard also takes a toll on his eye-hand coordination. Your hands start shaking when you fill up with adrenaline, and a Marine produces lots more of it than a regular man. It's probably a testament to the Marine's incredible training that he can use a gun at all once the battle is upon him. His natural instinct is to run off and rip the opposition to pieces with his bare hands.

Eye-hand as in target shooting is one of the few physical things where our world's unenhanced females can consistently be equal or even beat us males. Women keep cool and concentrate better on the shot than most men simply because they don't produce as much fighting hormones.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I would rate a marine at, I guess, 1,1 sisters, or something like that. Which approximately match their points on the rule, by a funny coincidence.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes).

Yeah, but the Sisters can rely on their fellow squadmates. The space marine has to be constantly on the lookout for potential traitors, along with deciding when is the best time for him to turn his coat. That does count quite a bit!

BrianDavion wrote:
Marines and Sisters both have a lifetime of training, coupled with state of the art battle armor. the on advantage marines are going to have is the biological factor, it'll be a factor but not a very big one, and not a big enough one, most likely to warrent a differant BS number

Sisters may have a better equipment though. They come from the wealthiest organization of the Imperium. Literally the wealthiest. And the most powerful second only, maybe, to the Administratum.

At the risk of being jerk, you are categorically wrong on both accounts. Your first statement implies that many Space Marines have to watch their brothers in their chapter for heresy and treachery, but by an large most space marines in most chapters are fanatically loyal to their chapter, and so that rarely ever enters into the equation. and your comment about them looking to turn coat makes them seem opportunistic and mercenary like. That is simply not how space marines operate. They are based on the psudo-mystical dogma that ingrains loyalty to ones chapter and battle brothers.

As far as sisters having better equipment because the Ecclesiarchy is the richest faction, this also not true. While the Ecclesiarchy is wealthy, the vast majority of that money is spent on constructing new cathedrals and shrine worlds. The sisters get by on hand me down equipment and rely on their faith and training to make it work. They are no where near as funded as a space marine chapter. Plus the Ad. Mech. funnels resources and supplies to chapters, while sisters rely on whatever is "donated" to them by the church. Space marines have access to drop pods, thunder hawks, battle tanks, advanced medical technology, superior weapons, and better armor. This is most exemplified by the fact that Space Marine chapters are self sufficient and have their own planets and fleets that they are autonomous over. The SOB rely largely on the Ecclesiarchy to get them places and supply them. It is not uncommon for an order or priory to be set up and then forgotten about. in the eyes of the Ecclesiarchy SOB are expendable, much the same way guardsmen are. They are used to defend holy sites and be the millitant arm of the church in a largely reactionary way. Most aggressive action by them revolve around recovering relics or taking shrines back form chaos or xenos. while SM chapters are used as power projection forces and actively hunt threats to the imperium. they serve two fundamentally different roles, and the later is way more funded and supported than the former.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I would rate a marine at, I guess, 1,1 sisters, or something like that. Which approximately match their points on the rule, by a funny coincidence.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
There's a bit of a fallacy in the fluff though - Sisters and Marines have the same accuracy ratings, which is put down to super-training on the part of the Sister, but the Marine generally trains just as hard as the Sister does and has a slew of physical advantages as well (in particular, perfect eyesight and quicksilver reflexes).

Yeah, but the Sisters can rely on their fellow squadmates. The space marine has to be constantly on the lookout for potential traitors, along with deciding when is the best time for him to turn his coat. That does count quite a bit!

BrianDavion wrote:
Marines and Sisters both have a lifetime of training, coupled with state of the art battle armor. the on advantage marines are going to have is the biological factor, it'll be a factor but not a very big one, and not a big eneugh one, most likely to warrent a differant BS number

Sisters may have a better equipment though. They come from the wealthiest organization of the Imperium. Literally the wealthiest. And the most powerful second only, maybe, to the Administratum.

Again with your "EVERY SECOND SPACE MARINE IS A TRAITOR!!!1" theory?
Just drop it...

Spetulhu wrote:
The thing is, they both have the best tech you can have in guns and targeting devices.

It is not that clear. Rank and file do not have the equivalent of a mastercrafted bolter. But Sisters might have something closer to this than marines.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Your first statement implies that many Space Marines have to watch their brothers in their chapter for heresy and treachery, but by an large most space marines in most chapters are fanatically loyal to their chapter, and so that rarely ever enters into the equation. and your comment about them looking to turn coat makes them seem opportunistic and mercenary like. That is simply not how space marines operate. They are based on the psudo-mystical dogma that ingrains loyalty to ones chapter and battle brothers.

That was just a jab for some fellow posters here, about discussions we had about how likely marines are to turn traitors . Sorry for the private joke.

 GKTiberius wrote:
As far as sisters having better equipment because the Ecclesiarchy is the richest faction, this also not true. While the Ecclesiarchy is wealthy, the vast majority of that money is spent on constructing new cathedrals and shrine worlds. The sisters get by on hand me down equipment and rely on their faith and training to make it work. They are no where near as funded as a space marine chapter.

I am going to ask for source on that.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Space marines have access to drop pods, thunder hawks, battle tanks, advanced medical technology, superior weapons, and better armor.

Sisters equivalent are not mentioned because they have no models. When/if GW re-release them, they will get new stuff out of nowhere.

 GKTiberius wrote:
It is not uncommon for an order or priory to be set up and then forgotten about.

Again, going to ask for a source.

 GKTiberius wrote:
in the eyes of the Ecclesiarchy SOB are expendable, much the same way guardsmen are.

Source?
Would they build that for guardsmen ?

I mean, even just given how precious power armors are from the very start, how likely are they to be given to troops considered expendable?

 GKTiberius wrote:
They are used to defend holy sites and be the millitant arm of the church in a largely reactionary way. Most aggressive action by them revolve around recovering relics or taking shrines back form chaos or xenos.

You forgot one of their most important roles. They are the Ecclesiarchy's internal affairs. To put it another way, one of their role is to decide whether the priest who decide who get which budget is a dirty heretic that should be turned into an arco-flagellant, or if he is some loyal member of the Ecclesiarchy. How likely is that priest to forget about a whole priory? That would be very heretical in the eyes of the Sisters, I believe.

Must admit I always understood that the Power Armour used by rank and file Sororitas and Astartes was similar - the Marines having extra stuff, especially related to the Black carapace. Targeting and other enhancements being the same.

Master crafted weapons and Artificer armour are usually heirlooms and relatively rare in both forces. Not all Astartes chapters have large scale manufacturing, some do have Forge ships and even are as self sufficient as forge worlds but lots are not and rely on a supply chain from the AM.

GW has never made it clear who and how maintenance is carried out for or by the Sororitas sadly.......

In terms of worth - need to have context - Both the Sororitas and the Astartes evoke awe and reverence in the Imperial Guard and other similar forces - this is difficult to measure.........

The Sororitas are well armed and armoured but still human - whereas the Astartes are post human and have a lot of advantages. The Sororitas also tend to have fairly narrow areas of interest / reasonability and tend to act on the defensive. They carry out purges etc but seldom act as an invasion force on their own - their don't have the numbers or the infrastructure - they have Starships and drop pods but not many and its a big galaxy. A Crusade is a different matter............

It also worth remembering that the Sororitas and the Astartes can be extremely uncompromising - see pieces like Wrath of Iron........

In a straight city fight the Sororitas would be worth a number of guardsmen, even veterans as they are equally skilled and have superior armour, senses and weapons. A Marine is worth several Sororitas due to even more durability, speed in combat and ability to remain in the field - a Sister is skilled combatant with effective weapons - a Space Marine is a living weapon clad in a armour.

I think this piece of fiction is a great depiction of how a single marine can make a difference and his impact in a small warzone.....

Thunderhawk down:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/642150.page

In regard to your questions as to my proof or sources:

I take most of my information form the Lexicanium website
vehicles : http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas_Vehicles_(List) vs. the SM list: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Weaponry_(List)
Weapons: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas_Weaponry_(List) Vs the SM list: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Vehicles_(List)

As far as being left to defend places, I base that on my readings of the fluff, like the Grey Knights codex and other published sources. Although I will admit my knowledge of them is more limited than that of other factions.

When I say forgotten about, I mean they are pretty much left to their own devices and expected to make do with what they have, not literally forgotten about. They are supported nominally, but don't receive near the gear and support as a space marine chapter does. as to their roles as guardians and protectors I direct you to the following passage from Lexicanium:

The Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas are the mainstay of the Adeptus Ministorum's armies. The Sisters of Battle specialize in waging Wars of Faith and purging heresy wherever it may be found.[7] Because of this, its duties often overlap with the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition and as a result the Sisters of Battle maintain a close alliance with the Witch Hunters.[8] The Sisters of Battle themselves are divided into six Orders, each numbering tens of thousands of Battle Sisters, and many Orders Minoris, each containing thousands of Sisters themselves. These forces are rarely deployed in full-strength, rather being assigned to waging Wars of Faith, aiding the Inquisition, or protecting Ecclesiarchy buildings, property, and relics.[12]

that is pretty much what I said in my first post,

As far as quality of equipment is concerned, I hold up the example of the dreadnought to the penitent engine. They ultimately fluff wise serve different purposes (one is for punishment the other for veneration) but SOB don't have another dreadnought equivalent. They are used for fundamentally different purposes.

SOB are extremely good at what they do, which is purge humanity of heresy and fight for the ecclesiarchy, but they are no where near on equal footings with SM chapters, as the SM are post humans and operate on a level that average humans cant match. if they could, the Space Marine would serve no purpose. you cannot compare a physically average human in power armor to a 7.5 foot tall post human that was literally genetically engineered to be the best fighters that humanity has to offer and is neurally connected to that suite of armor so it is literally an extension of his body. It is an empirical fact.

Also in most fluff barring some sort of Deus Ex Machina from the Emperor or an external force, most stories about the SOB end with most or all of the sisters dying horribly but faithfully in the service of the Emperor, Its kind of their thing.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The thing is, they both have the best tech you can have in guns and targeting devices.

It is not that clear. Rank and file do not have the equivalent of a mastercrafted bolter. But Sisters might have something closer to this than marines.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Your first statement implies that many Space Marines have to watch their brothers in their chapter for heresy and treachery, but by an large most space marines in most chapters are fanatically loyal to their chapter, and so that rarely ever enters into the equation. and your comment about them looking to turn coat makes them seem opportunistic and mercenary like. That is simply not how space marines operate. They are based on the psudo-mystical dogma that ingrains loyalty to ones chapter and battle brothers.

That was just a jab for some fellow posters here, about discussions we had about how likely marines are to turn traitors . Sorry for the private joke.

A joke with no evidence you constantly fail to provide for. Either cough up evidence or don't bring it up.

 GKTiberius wrote:
As far as sisters having better equipment because the Ecclesiarchy is the richest faction, this also not true. While the Ecclesiarchy is wealthy, the vast majority of that money is spent on constructing new cathedrals and shrine worlds. The sisters get by on hand me down equipment and rely on their faith and training to make it work. They are no where near as funded as a space marine chapter.

I am going to ask for source on that.

Their power armor is worse. Their wargear is worse. Their augmentations are worse than both the Astartes and Admech Skitarii. Plus Astartes have fleets and superheavies like Fellblades.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Space marines have access to drop pods, thunder hawks, battle tanks, advanced medical technology, superior weapons, and better armor.

Sisters equivalent are not mentioned because they have no models. When/if GW re-release them, they will get new stuff out of nowhere.

Which means feth all. GW not giving a damn about Sisters isn't an argument for why they lack such gear in-universe. Either provide evidence to back up the existence of such Wargear and its logged usage, or concede the point.