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Nah, Blood Tide was a one paragraph blip on the timeline. The story where they rescue Draigo was a different incident with a different Order.

Where do regular Scitarii fit in? Better than Scions? Could they hold their own against a Marine?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Space Marines are Bretts in space, and retain their demigodlike superhuman nature (you're better off fighting Chaos Warriors than Bretts)

What the hell? Bretonians are just basic humans, except for Grail Knights.

Bretts are the superhuman result of a successful eugenics program. They're filled with magical powers, and Bretts can do crazy gak like wade through gunfire without really caring at all.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
I'm actually OK with that. Our codex is pretty badass, and I already have enough Sisters to make a relatively competitive army. Its new players that we're really hurting for, and it's new players that a plastic range of miniatures will really benefit.

Also, GKTiberius, you might want to check out the most recent Grey Knight codex. There are some pretty awesome Sisters in there - they actually rescue Draigo twice in one short story, and they've been retconned out of the Bloodtide fluff.

-looks at my Dark Angels codex-

Yeah you probably don't want a new Codex at this point.

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL its a good point but tell me how artillery helps you if the battle starts at your artillery?

There's always another artillery gun. The marines start the battle at one Colossus, and the other ten million of them end the battle from miles away.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is not a thread about ballance on the table top or realism - this is a thread about super humans with thor hammers running like road runners with shots bouncing off of them crushing everything in their path would have no problem defeating IG forces. Like ironclads vs wooden frigates - they just wouldn't have a chance.

And the problem with this is that those over the top examples are ing stupid. They contradict every other example where marines aren't doing that kind of stuff, and they portray an absolutely absurd and cartoonish setting that is a complete contrast with the intended grimdark themes. The only sensible way to handle the high-end incidents is to treat them as the religious myths that they are, much like Achilles and his near-invulnerability.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL its a good point but tell me how artillery helps you if the battle starts at your artillery?

There's always another artillery gun. The marines start the battle at one Colossus, and the other ten million of them end the battle from miles away.

More to the point, how on earth do the Space Marines always know where such things are? It's not like they've got an extensive intelligence apparatus and surveillance network, it's almost all down to interrogations and whatever a few Scout infantry can physically see, and they've got an absurdly low number of those for a force operating on an operational, much less strategic, level.

 Kain wrote:
Plausibility is determined by internal consistency, not realism. If you establish that people can destroy planets with their own personal power and have them consistently show that this is within their power and a part of the setting; people will accept it. See Homestuck or Strike Legion, in the latter of which there are planet cracking hand grenades but it fits into the overall thematics of the game (the thematic being cocaine snorting lunacy) and the former is done by beings with explicit access to near infinite sources of energy. It's when you drag it in out of nowhere when there was no indication that this was that particular kind of story that you get problems with the suspension of disbelief. It's the same reason that you can't suddenly bring in Lizard people into a modern day setting romantic drama when there was no prior indication that aliens existed in the setting but no one will bat an eye at lizard people in a space opera. The former is simply not plausible within the framework of the story because it's breaks internal consistency.

Plausibility is also determined by genre conventions. If you have a "WWI in space" story you expect it to have things like trench warfare, throwing away countless lives for trivial gains, etc. If, in the middle of a human wave attack on an enemy trench, your "WWI in space" troops suddenly reveal that they have the ability to run at 1000mph you'd better have a really good reason for it because it's not what your audience expects from the "WWI in space" theme.

So, in 40k you have what normally appears to be a straightforward "WWII/Vietnam in space" setting: most of the elements of modern war exist (tanks, aircraft, squad-based tactics, etc) but are still in a fairly unrefined form (those aircraft are using guns instead of missiles). And in that kind of setting you expect most things to be within a reasonable range of the WWII/Vietnam power level. Marines can be a bit higher, IG conscript hordes can be a bit lower. But if you suddenly say "lol guys, now it's a superhero cartoon" your audience is going to say "WTF is this " and lose interest.

There's lots of things coexisting in the 40k setting. You have DKoK doing supergritty grimdark eyepatch trench warfare with heretics while super-saiyan GKs do crazy fighting with Daemons on the other end of the battlefield, psychic fireworks lighting up their fight like a christmas tree.

Vraks leaps to mind.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL its a good point but tell me how artillery helps you if the battle starts at your artillery?

There's always another artillery gun. The marines start the battle at one Colossus, and the other ten million of them end the battle from miles away.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is not a thread about ballance on the table top or realism - this is a thread about super humans with thor hammers running like road runners with shots bouncing off of them crushing everything in their path would have no problem defeating IG forces. Like ironclads vs wooden frigates - they just wouldn't have a chance.

And the problem with this is that those over the top examples are ing stupid. They contradict every other example where marines aren't doing that kind of stuff, and they portray an absolutely absurd and cartoonish setting that is a complete contrast with the intended grimdark themes. The only sensible way to handle the high-end incidents is to treat them as the religious myths that they are, much like Achilles and his near-invulnerability.

I've read a lot of marine fluff - they are always doing over the top stuff. the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are that awesome.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've read a lot of marine fluff - they are always doing over the top stuff. the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are that awesome.

Then why is the art full of things like this, with space marines fighting like normal soldiers that just happen to have better armor, not running around at 100mph headshotting everyone with their bolters?



Why does GW's own space marine movie show the exact opposite of the supposed "superhero cartoon" marines?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL its a good point but tell me how artillery helps you if the battle starts at your artillery?

There's always another artillery gun. The marines start the battle at one Colossus, and the other ten million of them end the battle from miles away.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is not a thread about ballance on the table top or realism - this is a thread about super humans with thor hammers running like road runners with shots bouncing off of them crushing everything in their path would have no problem defeating IG forces. Like ironclads vs wooden frigates - they just wouldn't have a chance.

And the problem with this is that those over the top examples are ing stupid. They contradict every other example where marines aren't doing that kind of stuff, and they portray an absolutely absurd and cartoonish setting that is a complete contrast with the intended grimdark themes. The only sensible way to handle the high-end incidents is to treat them as the religious myths that they are, much like Achilles and his near-invulnerability.

I've read a lot of marine fluff - they are always doing over the top stuff. the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are that awesome.

Indeed.

I'm pretty sure the setting is MORE about the Spess Mehreens and their exploits for the most part and less about the cannon fodder... er Guardsman.

 Ashiraya wrote:
There's lots of things coexisting in the 40k setting. You have DKoK doing supergritty grimdark eyepatch trench warfare with heretics while super-saiyan GKs do crazy fighting with Daemons on the other end of the battlefield, psychic fireworks lighting up their fight like a christmas tree.

Vraks leaps to mind.

But that's not really what Vraks had. Remember, it was a human inquisitor who killed a demon lord of Khorne in a one-on-one duel, and the description of the physical aspects of the fights aren't really any different from "normal" humans fighting. You don't have demons and GKs bouncing off the walls of the fortress towers while striking FTL sword blows.

Peregrine, you should not use the Ultramarines movie as a serious source. It frivolously violates established fluff at every opportunity, and the very nature of the protagonists is an example. Raw Ultramarines recruits, in a Tactical Squad? Except recruits are first Scouts, then Devastator, then Assault, and last Tactical, meaning they are more than veterans when they reach Tactical?


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 Peregrine wrote:


But that's not really what Vraks had. Remember, it was a human inquisitor who killed a demon lord of Khorne in a one-on-one duel, and the description of the physical aspects of the fights aren't really any different from "normal" humans fighting. You don't have demons and GKs bouncing off the walls of the fortress towers while striking FTL sword blows.

I am fairly sure Hector Rex is not only gene-enhanced, but also a psyker. As in, a seriously powerful psyker.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Peregrine, you should not use the Ultramarines movie as a serious source.

Why not? GW finally had an opportunity to show space marines in combat instead of describing them in written fluff, in a source under their direct control. And they made a deliberate choice to make them normal soldiers with better gear, not cartoon superheroes. Some fluff elements might be inconsistent (though perhaps the recruits were there because of exceptional circumstances), but that shouldn't have any effect on the "what space marines look like" aspect.

Of course if you don't like that there are other sources. For example, the DoW intro:




Same style of fighting, same complete absence of the "cartoon superhero" marines.


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 Ashiraya wrote:
I am fairly sure Hector Rex is not only gene-enhanced, but also a psyker. As in, a seriously powerful psyker.

Fluff-wise he's described as being a big and strong human, not a marine-level superhuman. So think "(American) football player on steroids", not "10' tall genetically-engineered supersoldier".

The one I don't like about that intro is how PA is completely useless in it.

The Ultramarines movie is an utter mess of contradictions and you have to grasp for not only straws but a massive haystack to make sense of it (as in, most likely it was just someone's dream.)

Dawn of War's intro is eleven years old, and much like the tabletop game, it is impossible to reconcile with the fluff. We know Marines recruit very slowly and carefully, and if they were almost wiped out every battle, they would be extinct by M30.


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 Peregrine wrote:


Fluff-wise he's described as being a big and strong human, not a marine-level superhuman. So think "(American) football player on steroids", not "10' tall genetically-engineered supersoldier".

He is still a psyker, though. Psykers do crazy things, from throwing a bolt of lightning to slicing starships in two with a sword.


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 Bobthehero wrote:
The one I don't like about that intro is how PA is completely useless in it.

PA does not stop any kind of damage in either the UM movie or the DOW intro, which only makes them less plausible.

Even Carapace armour is supposed to be able to stop an ork choppa, and PA is better!

I'd also point out that using DOW or the Ultramarines movie is a terrible example, as GW had LESS control over those. Animating is bloody hard and expensive- animating near supersonic characters is extremely hard and expensive and drags out the time working for months. Plus the Black Library isn't third party like Wax or even FFG- it's first party and directly a part of GW. They have complete control over everything in the Black Library through the first person- if they wanted or didn't want something they could directly order it.

Now, I am not going to argue for supersonic Marines as even I think that's OTT, but I definitely argue they play in a so different league to mortal men they can't really be compared.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Ultramarines movie is an utter mess of contradictions and you have to grasp for not only straws but a massive haystack to make sense of it (as in, most likely it was just someone's dream.)

So why don't we say the same about the other fluff? The "cartoon superhero" marines are inconsistent with the tabletop fluff/Ultramarines/etc and therefore they're just someone's dream.

Dawn of War's intro is eleven years old, and much like the tabletop game, it is impossible to reconcile with the fluff. We know Marines recruit very slowly and carefully, and if they were almost wiped out every battle, they would be extinct by M30.

So maybe the battle in the intro isn't a typical battle. We know that marines have had their glorious last stands in important battles, so why can't this be one of them?

He is still a psyker, though. Psykers do crazy things, from throwing a bolt of lightning to slicing starships in two with a sword.

The fluff doesn't say anything about him using his psychic powers to support his physical abilities in the fight. There's some "war of minds" stuff going on in the background, but he's still a human swinging a sword with human muscles. He even gets old and tired before his last desperate blow kills the demon.

PA does not stop any kind of damage in either the UM movie or the DOW intro, which only makes them less plausible.

Alternatively, power armor isn't as good as you think it is.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Plausibility is determined by internal consistency, not realism. If you establish that people can destroy planets with their own personal power and have them consistently show that this is within their power and a part of the setting; people will accept it. See Homestuck or Strike Legion, in the latter of which there are planet cracking hand grenades but it fits into the overall thematics of the game (the thematic being cocaine snorting lunacy) and the former is done by beings with explicit access to near infinite sources of energy. It's when you drag it in out of nowhere when there was no indication that this was that particular kind of story that you get problems with the suspension of disbelief. It's the same reason that you can't suddenly bring in Lizard people into a modern day setting romantic drama when there was no prior indication that aliens existed in the setting but no one will bat an eye at lizard people in a space opera. The former is simply not plausible within the framework of the story because it's breaks internal consistency.

Plausibility is also determined by genre conventions. If you have a "WWI in space" story you expect it to have things like trench warfare, throwing away countless lives for trivial gains, etc. If, in the middle of a human wave attack on an enemy trench, your "WWI in space" troops suddenly reveal that they have the ability to run at 1000mph you'd better have a really good reason for it because it's not what your audience expects from the "WWI in space" theme.

So, in 40k you have what normally appears to be a straightforward "WWII/Vietnam in space" setting: most of the elements of modern war exist (tanks, aircraft, squad-based tactics, etc) but are still in a fairly unrefined form (those aircraft are using guns instead of missiles). And in that kind of setting you expect most things to be within a reasonable range of the WWII/Vietnam power level. Marines can be a bit higher, IG conscript hordes can be a bit lower. But if you suddenly say "lol guys, now it's a superhero cartoon" your audience is going to say "WTF is this " and lose interest.

Your problem is assuming it's supposed to be world war 1 in space, instead of medieval eurofantasy with a side order of HP Lovecraft and Heinlein in space. You have Space Elves and Space Orcs and Space Knights. It's not Science Fiction and it's best when it doesn't try to be, it's very firmly Space Fantasy. For the longest time, the Imperial Guard weren't really anything more than the Shield to the Avengers of the Space Marines. The Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are like adventuring parties in a role playing game who can do things the armies of the Kings and Emperors of the Land can't even remotely hope to match and they go about into the big bad world of gods and monsters like heroes of epic high fantasy stories.

 Peregrine wrote:
So maybe the battle in the intro isn't a typical battle. We know that marines have had their glorious last stands in important battles, so why can't this be one of them?

Because in the DoW intro, the orks were of almost equal numbers?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Ultramarines movie is an utter mess of contradictions and you have to grasp for not only straws but a massive haystack to make sense of it (as in, most likely it was just someone's dream.)

So why don't we say the same about the other fluff? The "cartoon superhero" marines are inconsistent with the tabletop fluff/Ultramarines/etc and therefore they're just someone's dream.

Dawn of War's intro is eleven years old, and much like the tabletop game, it is impossible to reconcile with the fluff. We know Marines recruit very slowly and carefully, and if they were almost wiped out every battle, they would be extinct by M30.

So maybe the battle in the intro isn't a typical battle. We know that marines have had their glorious last stands in important battles, so why can't this be one of them?

He is still a psyker, though. Psykers do crazy things, from throwing a bolt of lightning to slicing starships in two with a sword.

The fluff doesn't say anything about him using his psychic powers to support his physical abilities in the fight. There's some "war of minds" stuff going on in the background, but he's still a human swinging a sword with human muscles. He even gets old and tired before his last desperate blow kills the demon.

PA does not stop any kind of damage in either the UM movie or the DOW intro, which only makes them less plausible.

Alternatively, power armor isn't as good as you think it is.

Just.... no. Do you just hate Space marines or something? If they died like flies like you are convinced they do they'd all be dead by now.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Animating is bloody hard and expensive- animating near supersonic characters is extremely hard and expensive and drags out the time working for months.

This is CG, not hand-drawn animation. It would have been very easy to have the marines move a lot faster, but someone made a conscious decision not to do it. And GW approved the movie instead of saying "you ignored the part where we said we wanted near-supersonic marines, you're not getting paid until you go back and fix it". Whatever the reason might have been it's part of the fluff now, and ignoring it because "animation is expensive" is no better than ignoring the written fluff because "the author has to make it sound more exciting in a medium where you don't have spectacular visuals available".

Plus the Black Library isn't third party like Wax or even FFG- it's first party and directly a part of GW. They have complete control over everything in the Black Library through the first person- if they wanted or didn't want something they could directly order it.

How is that any different from the Ultramarines movie, which was sold directly by GW? This isn't like a video game license where GW hands the IP to someone else and says "make money with this" but otherwise has minimal direct involvement.


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 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Just.... no. Do you just hate Space marines or something? If they died like flies like you are convinced they do they'd all be dead by now.

I don't hate space marines, I hate the fanboy worship of space marines where an army of well-equipped elites is turned into cartoon superheroes. I like tabletop marines (and fluff that portrays them at roughly tabletop level) just fine.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Because in the DoW intro, the orks were of almost equal numbers?

I guess that means marines aren't nearly as awesome as you seem to think.

Like, take it like this; in a D&D game, does anyone really care that level 1 hobgoblin warriors can't even touch level 20 Paladins even if they outnumber her a thousand to one and all their superior numbers do for them is make the high level heroes take more time to kill them? Even though there's absolutely no in universe explanation as to why people get arbitrarily more powerful after doing some errands and stabbing some blokes? It's a genre convention that the super badass heroes are just better than the mooks in every way there is to be better. I mean, even in the Tolkienverse, Orcs had to outnumber Elven and Numenorian Ubermensch by a factor of more than a hundred to one to have any chance of fighting them at all.

 Peregrine wrote:


I guess that means marines aren't nearly as awesome as you seem to think.

I have this feeling you're pulling my leg now.

 Kain wrote:
It's not Science Fiction and it's best when it doesn't try to be, it's very firmly Space Fantasy.

You realize that space marines are literally Starship Troopers soldiers with their jetpacks removed and a bunch of purity seals glued everywhere, right? In fact, you could build a pretty convincing diorama of some of the Starship Troopers battles using assault marines and Tyranid models.

The Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are like adventuring parties in a role playing game who can do things the armies of the Kings and Emperors of the Land can't even remotely hope to match and they go about into the big bad world of gods and monsters like heroes of epic high fantasy stories.

You're missing the fact that in other fluff all of the other armies get to do the same things that space marines do. IG get to be the "heroic adventuring party" in their own stories, so space marines aren't exceptional.

I love how all my threads either fail after about 6 replies or end up in a massive off topic discussion.

I started this thread to discuss how a sister, a scion or a scitarii would fair against a marine. The sister-marine comparison has been extensively discussed, anyone got any thoughts on the other 2?

 Kain wrote:
Like, take it like this; in a D&D game, does anyone really care that level 1 hobgoblin warriors can't even touch level 20 Paladins even if they outnumber her a thousand to one and all their superior numbers do for them is make the high level heroes take more time to kill them?

Yes. That's a weakness of the D&D game mechanics, not good writing.

Even though there's absolutely no in universe explanation as to why people get arbitrarily more powerful after doing some errands and stabbing some blokes?

Again, this is a problem with D&D game mechanics, not good writing. People should get better after doing things that practice those skills in the same way that a person who spends time playing a sport will be stronger and faster than someone who sits on the couch playing video games all day. But D&D style stat increases are just flawed game mechanics.

It's a genre convention that the super badass heroes are just better than the mooks in every way there is to be better.

Better, but not orders of magnitude better. If the heroes are better by such a huge margin that the mooks can't even threaten them you have a really boring story because there's no plausible sense of danger for the heroes.

Better, but not orders of magnitude better. If the heroes are better by such a huge margin that the mooks can't even threaten them you have a really boring story because there's no plausible sense of danger for the heroes.

Or you just make your villains that much scarier....

 Peregrine wrote:


Better, but not orders of magnitude better. If the heroes are better by such a huge margin that the mooks can't even threaten them you have a really boring story because there's no plausible sense of danger for the heroes.

Luckily there's many types of enemies.

Guardsmen are no threat to the CSM, but Tyranids, Eldar and SM are.

Dr. Manhattan is still finely written even though he's rather broken, for example.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
It's not Science Fiction and it's best when it doesn't try to be, it's very firmly Space Fantasy.

You realize that space marines are literally Starship Troopers soldiers with their jetpacks removed and a bunch of purity seals glued everywhere, right? In fact, you could build a pretty convincing diorama of some of the Starship Troopers battles using assault marines and Tyranid models.

The Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are like adventuring parties in a role playing game who can do things the armies of the Kings and Emperors of the Land can't even remotely hope to match and they go about into the big bad world of gods and monsters like heroes of epic high fantasy stories.

You're missing the fact that in other fluff all of the other armies get to do the same things that space marines do. IG get to be the "heroic adventuring party" in their own stories, so space marines aren't exceptional.

Aesthetically there are some similarities to the mobile infantry. Thematically Space Marines have much more to do with millitant holy orders of the middle ages like the Teutonic Knights or the Jomsvikings. Or to take examples from other fantasy works; the Grey Wardens or the Harpers. There's some elements of science fiction super soldiery, but in terms of organization, general feel, and how the whole faction is set up, the SoBs and Space Marines are basically millitant holy orders, except in space.

The Imperial Guard differs from the SoBs and Space Marines in presentation in that its stories tend to draw more from Saving Private Ryan or Fury than Dungeons and Dragons and Lord of the Rings. The thematics drawn are hugely different. Essentially, every faction tells a different sort of story. Orks are the story of roving barbarian hordes. Eldar of the desperate entering their time of twilight. Tyranids of man in his struggle against the overwhelming and uncaring power of nature and the alien. Chaos of the struggle with the darkest desires in every person.

The Tau, Tyranids, and Imperial Guard draw the least from fantasy because the first two mostly draw from conventional science fiction and the third from war movies. Pretty much all the other factions draw from High Fantasy for their thematics first and foremost.