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 Quanar wrote:
I must disagree with your disagreement - Twin-linked Blasts may re-roll "if the scatter dice does not roll a hit, {...}" (p174).

Well that's splitting hairs, and I confess I did not include the caveat in my always active wording, though it doesn't alter my platform that Twin-Linked can reroll the scatter while BS6/PE cannot. In fact, if folks wish to argue that having a granted reroll on a 1 means you have rerolls for scatter, then Twin-Linked having a granted reroll on a missed Blast would do the same and contradict its own rule. That's how silly these arguments can be.

 Arkaine wrote:
Well that's splitting hairs, and I confess I did not include the caveat in my always active wording, though it doesn't alter my platform that Twin-Linked can reroll the scatter while BS6/PE cannot. In fact, if folks wish to argue that having a granted reroll on a 1 means you have rerolls for scatter, then Twin-Linked having a granted reroll on a missed Blast would do the same and contradict its own rule. That's how silly these arguments can be.

But that's exactly our point - Twin-Linked needs to roll an arrow on the scatter before it can re-roll, and the Gets Hot roll must be done before rolling the scatter dice or even placing the blast marker, yet it is mentioned as a generator of re-rolls that works with the Gets Hot roll.

I can see what you mean about the general blast rule making the specific Twin-linked clause contradictory, but whichever side of this discussion is correct makes something in the rules break.

 Quanar wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I think I can see where you're getting confused now. You seem to be saying that because both BS6+ and PE allow you to re-roll 1s To Hit, and that as BS6+ is specifically included as allowing Gets Hot re-rolls, that PE must also allow re-rolls on Gets Hot. You're then applying this assumption to re-roll blast scatter, claiming that if BS6+ allows you to re-roll scatter that PE must also do so.

So a Prescience'd unit cannot re-roll the Gets Hot result? The Gets Hot rule lists BS6+ and Twin-Linked as examples of things that give a re-roll for a 'normal' To Hit roll (we shouldn't need to be told about either, as giving re-rolls to hit is explicitly what they do, if you remove the "(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)" part, the rule doesn't actually change), and then states that if something can re-roll it's To Hit, it can also re-roll with weapons that don't roll To Hit (such as a theoretical Template weapon with Gets Hot). The "pro-re-roll" side is taking a functionally similar rule (both BS6+ and PE 'trigger' on a 1, both Prescience and Twin-Linked re-roll on a miss), and taking that to be enough - the rulebook cannot possibly list all of the potential rules interactions, particularly for Codexes that haven't been released yet.

That's not what was said. Not at all.

Claim A - which most agree - is: PE works on Gets Hot since it works the same as BS6+ which is listed as an example in the Gets Hot rule.
Claim B - which Tonberry and others disagree with - is: PE then HAS to work on Scatter Dice as well, since PE is like BS6+ and Scatter Dice are like Gets Hot dice.

The counter-argument to that basically is this:

If the rules were intended to allow PE to work on Scatter Dice, it would have either A) a mention within the Scatter rules or B) a mention in the PE rules for blast weapons - similar to how Twin-Linked has a section for Blast Weapons and Gets Hot has a section for rerolls (including BS6+ explicitly and PE by proxy of BS6).

You're building a rather thin bridge to get from "BS6 allows Gets Hot rerolls, therefore PE must allow for Scatter rerolls" simply based on semantics, ignoring that Gets Hot and Scatter are two different things. Each have their own rule sets and because one allows something doesn't mean that the other has to do the same.

Whoever misused the "permissive ruleset" phrase: There is no permission to reroll Scatter by PE. Unless you have explicit permission to do something, you CANNOT. That's why Twin-Linked has a section for Blast Weapons, giving permission to THAT rule to affect Blast Scatter dice. "Rerolls + Gets Hot" are different because the rule in question is part of Gets Hot and affects anything that gives a reroll (including examples). If the Scatter rule had a section just like the Gets Hot & Reroll paragraph, it would allow for PE to reroll. But there is no such rule.

nekooni wrote:
That's not what was said. Not at all.

Claim A - which most agree - is: PE works on Gets Hot since it works the same as BS6+ which is listed as an example in the Gets Hot rule.
Claim B - which Tonberry and others disagree with - is: PE then HAS to work on Scatter Dice as well, since PE is like BS6+ and Scatter Dice are like Gets Hot dice.

The counter-argument to that basically is this:

If the rules were intended to allow PE to work on Scatter Dice, it would have either A) a mention within the Scatter rules or B) a mention in the PE rules for blast weapons - similar to how Twin-Linked has a section for Blast Weapons and Gets Hot has a section for rerolls (including BS6+ explicitly and PE by proxy of BS6).

You're building a rather thin bridge to get from "BS6 allows Gets Hot rerolls, therefore PE must allow for Scatter rerolls" simply based on semantics, ignoring that Gets Hot and Scatter are two different things. Each have their own rule sets and because one allows something doesn't mean that the other has to do the same.

Whoever misused the "permissive ruleset" phrase: There is no permission to reroll Scatter by PE. Unless you have explicit permission to do something, you CANNOT. That's why Twin-Linked has a section for Blast Weapons, giving permission to THAT rule to affect Blast Scatter dice. "Rerolls + Gets Hot" are different because the rule in question is part of Gets Hot and affects anything that gives a reroll (including examples). If the Scatter rule had a section just like the Gets Hot & Reroll paragraph, it would allow for PE to reroll. But there is no such rule.

If you feel I have mis-represented what Tonberry said, I apologize, but I was purely talking about re-rolling the Gets Hot result, and leaving the scatter re-roll discussion to the side.

So ignoring the re-rolling scatter dice entirely, in your opinion can I use PE to re-roll the Gets Hot result on a Blast weapon? What you've listed as "Claim A"?

 Quanar wrote:
So ignoring the re-rolling scatter dice entirely, in your opinion can I use PE to re-roll the Gets Hot result on a Blast weapon? What you've listed as "Claim A"?

Yes.

 Quanar wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Well that's splitting hairs, and I confess I did not include the caveat in my always active wording, though it doesn't alter my platform that Twin-Linked can reroll the scatter while BS6/PE cannot. In fact, if folks wish to argue that having a granted reroll on a 1 means you have rerolls for scatter, then Twin-Linked having a granted reroll on a missed Blast would do the same and contradict its own rule. That's how silly these arguments can be.

But that's exactly our point - Twin-Linked needs to roll an arrow on the scatter before it can re-roll, and the Gets Hot roll must be done before rolling the scatter dice or even placing the blast marker, yet it is mentioned as a generator of re-rolls that works with the Gets Hot roll.

Twin-Linked has a paragraph on how it interacts with Scatter, declaring how Blast Weapons and TL work together.
Preferred Enemy does not.
Gets Hot has a paragraph on how it interacts with anything that allows rerolls of any kind, including (but not limited to) BS6 and Twin-Linked. Preferred Enemy works like BS6, therefore it is included.
Scatter does NOT have a paragraph on how it interacts with anything that allows rerolls, therefore it doesn't.


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the connection you're building here is:

TL allows reroll for Gets Hot-> PE also allows rerolls for Gets Hot -> If both TL and PE allow rerolls for Gets Hot, they will behave the same in other situations as well -> Since TL can reroll scatter, PE must allow that as well.
The red part simply isn't true unless there is a rule somewhere that says so.

I can see what you mean about the general blast rule making the specific Twin-linked clause contradictory, but whichever side of this discussion is correct makes something in the rules break.

What rule exactly is broken if we say "the rules are that PE doesn't allow you to reroll your scatter dice"?

 Quanar wrote:
But that's exactly our point - Twin-Linked needs to roll an arrow on the scatter before it can re-roll, and the Gets Hot roll must be done before rolling the scatter dice or even placing the blast marker, yet it is mentioned as a generator of re-rolls that works with the Gets Hot roll.

I can see what you mean about the general blast rule making the specific Twin-linked clause contradictory, but whichever side of this discussion is correct makes something in the rules break.

But why is that a problem? Twin-Linked does not need to roll an arrow to generate a re-roll To Hit, the rule for blasts is supplementary to its existing rules, not a replacement for them. Twin-Linked grants both the ability to re-roll To Hits and the ability to re-roll missed Scatter dice, they are BOTH Twin-Linked rules. The Gets Hot rule explicitly allowing a rule like Twin-Linked (a rule that per the conditions has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit) to re-roll Gets Hot rolls of 1 only has no bearing on scatter dice, especially since on a roll of 1 there are no scatter dice to roll. Any other roll but 1 for Gets Hot does NOT grant a re-roll of Gets Hot to ANY special rule.


I mean let's look at the permissions...

The Gets Hot roll is divided into two sections. The first states that "If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit..." and proceeds to explain it only suffers a Wound on a 1. This applies to all Gets Hot weapons and qualifies that when using your re-roll abilities you may ignore any 1s rolled initially. The second portion is separated by semi-colon and in conjunction with the first declares "it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit". All this states is that when rolling the separate Gets Hot roll for Blast weapons, if you have any sort of re-roll powers you are permitted to re-roll the 1 results of Gets Hot. As BS6, Twin-Linked, and Preferred Enemy already all re-roll 1s (Twin-Linked because 1s are critical misses), this not strange. But what's important is that it specifically states only results of 1 may be re-rolled.

The Blast weapon special rule states "If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6" and like the above Gets Hot rule, this rule does not grant any ability to re-roll. The only purpose of this rule is to indicate that if a model re-rolls, it must do so for both sets of dice. The rule does not grant models with the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls the ability to re-roll Blasts. In order to make use of this rule, the model would need an ability to re-roll To Hit rolls that also applies to Blasts. The model would need something like Twin-Linked. BS6 or PE do not apply here as they are not an ability that re-rolls Blasts. It's a conditional 'if' statement, it does not grant rules but requests that you have what is listed before moving on to the next step. BS6 and PE may both re-roll its rolls To Hit but neither rule allows a model to choose to do so after firing a Blast weapon. Re-rolling the Gets Hot is not the same and only rolls of 1 on Gets Hot may be re-rolled (there's no scatter dice for these).

As I asked initially, why is that a problem? Gets Hot grants explicit and detailed permissions to its re-roll generators in the event of a 1 on the Gets Hot roll. The rule for re-rolling Blasts does not, it simply mandates that if you CAN and DO re-roll the Blast, you must do so using all three dice. This rule prohibits picking and choosing WHICH dice you re-roll, it does not grant any rule the ability to do so and therefore only Twin-Linked can even take advantage of it (along with any other rule that permits re-rolling the Blast scatter dice).

nekooni wrote:
Twin-Linked has a paragraph on how it interacts with Scatter, declaring how Blast Weapons and TL work together.
Preferred Enemy does not.
Gets Hot has a paragraph on how it interacts with anything that allows rerolls of any kind, including (but not limited to) BS6 and Twin-Linked. Preferred Enemy works like BS6, therefore it is included.
Scatter does NOT have a paragraph on how it interacts with anything that allows rerolls, therefore it doesn't.

This is I think where the disconnect is - it's not that PE allows a re-roll on blasts only because twin-linked does, but because of this rule here:

Blasts, p158 wrote:Blast Weapons and Re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6

(added the underlining)
The scatter dice roll is not a To Hit roll ("When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit. {...}"), so that rule is either referring only to Twin-Linked (as that is the only rule explicitly allowed to re-roll Blasts - am I understanding you correctly?), despite Twin-Linked having the same restriction making sure you re-roll all three dice, OR it allows rules like Guide and Prescience to re-roll the scatter (and 2D6) as they have conditional abilities (just like Twin-Linked) to re-roll their To Hit dice. If only Twin-Linked can use it, why have the rule at all (since it's duplicated in Twin-Linked) and why mention the "To Hit" at all?

nekooni wrote:
What rule exactly is broken if we say "the rules are that PE doesn't allow you to reroll your scatter dice"?

Knew I shouldn't have written that. I was referring to the rule I've just quoted, which is about Blasts rather than the Gets Hot (despite me saying I was only arguing about one of the two). Consider that remark rescinded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:
But why is that a problem? Twin-Linked does not need to roll an arrow to generate a re-roll To Hit, the rule for blasts is supplementary to its existing rules, not a replacement for them. Twin-Linked grants both the ability to re-roll To Hits and the ability to re-roll missed Scatter dice, they are BOTH Twin-Linked rules. The Gets Hot rule explicitly allowing a rule like Twin-Linked (a rule that per the conditions has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit) to re-roll Gets Hot rolls of 1 only has no bearing on scatter dice, especially since on a roll of 1 there are no scatter dice to roll. Any other roll but 1 for Gets Hot does NOT grant a re-roll of Gets Hot to ANY special rule.

 Arkaine wrote:
The Blast weapon special rule states "If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6" and like the above Gets Hot rule, this rule does not grant any ability to re-roll. The only purpose of this rule is to indicate that if a model re-rolls, it must do so for both sets of dice. The rule does not grant models with the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls the ability to re-roll Blasts. In order to make use of this rule, the model would need an ability to re-roll To Hit rolls that also applies to Blasts. The model would need something like Twin-Linked. BS6 or PE do not apply here as they are not an ability that re-rolls Blasts. It's a conditional 'if' statement, it does not grant rules but requests that you have what is listed before moving on to the next step. BS6 and PE may both re-roll its rolls To Hit but neither rule allows a model to choose to do so after firing a Blast weapon. Re-rolling the Gets Hot is not the same and only rolls of 1 on Gets Hot may be re-rolled (there's no scatter dice for these).

Twin-Linked grants the ability to re-roll failed To Hits, and even then that only works if you follow that the Blasts and Re-rolls rule allows you to use the ability to re-roll To Hits to re-roll a scatter (what you flat-out disagree with in the second quoted segment).
As mentioned in my post to Nekooni, a scatter roll is not a To Hit. Twin-Linked already includes the restriction on re-rolling all three dice. If that rule is not there in order to allow things that can re-roll To Hits to re-roll scatters, then it's functionally useless, and could be removed from the rulebook entirely, as the only things that could possibly trigger it (scatter rolls) are not To Hit rolls.

 Quanar wrote:

Blasts, p158 wrote:Blast Weapons and Re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6

(added the underlining)
The scatter dice roll is not a To Hit roll ("When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit. {...}"), so that rule is either referring only to Twin-Linked (as that is the only rule explicitly allowed to re-roll Blasts - am I understanding you correctly?), despite Twin-Linked having the same restriction making sure you re-roll all three dice, OR it allows rules like Guide and Prescience to re-roll the scatter (and 2D6) as they have conditional abilities (just like Twin-Linked) to re-roll their To Hit dice. If only Twin-Linked can use it, why have the rule at all (since it's duplicated in Twin-Linked) and why mention the "To Hit" at all?

That's exactly what's going on. When it comes to common rules, it only applies to Twin-Linked. The rule exists as a redundancy by Games Workshop for other rules that permit Twin-Linked style Blast scatter re-rolls. Such redundancies exist throughout the rules to ensure a future codex doesn't break the rules by "not technically being Twin-Linked". Any rule that functions like Twin-Linked for Blasts would still be limited by the Blast special rule re-roll requirements.

Prescience can only re-roll failed To Hit rolls. You'll have to create another topic if you want to argue whether missing a Blast can be constituted as a failed To Hit roll. As for why they mention To-Hit re-rolls, it's possible because they intended it for Blasts that miss to be considered a failed To Hit roll. Personally, as the power itself is meant to make players more accurate, I would permit players to re-roll Blasts for Prescience but I can't find any rules that explicit allow it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quanar wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
But why is that a problem? Twin-Linked does not need to roll an arrow to generate a re-roll To Hit, the rule for blasts is supplementary to its existing rules, not a replacement for them. Twin-Linked grants both the ability to re-roll To Hits and the ability to re-roll missed Scatter dice, they are BOTH Twin-Linked rules. The Gets Hot rule explicitly allowing a rule like Twin-Linked (a rule that per the conditions has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit) to re-roll Gets Hot rolls of 1 only has no bearing on scatter dice, especially since on a roll of 1 there are no scatter dice to roll. Any other roll but 1 for Gets Hot does NOT grant a re-roll of Gets Hot to ANY special rule.

 Arkaine wrote:
The Blast weapon special rule states "If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6" and like the above Gets Hot rule, this rule does not grant any ability to re-roll. The only purpose of this rule is to indicate that if a model re-rolls, it must do so for both sets of dice. The rule does not grant models with the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls the ability to re-roll Blasts. In order to make use of this rule, the model would need an ability to re-roll To Hit rolls that also applies to Blasts. The model would need something like Twin-Linked. BS6 or PE do not apply here as they are not an ability that re-rolls Blasts. It's a conditional 'if' statement, it does not grant rules but requests that you have what is listed before moving on to the next step. BS6 and PE may both re-roll its rolls To Hit but neither rule allows a model to choose to do so after firing a Blast weapon. Re-rolling the Gets Hot is not the same and only rolls of 1 on Gets Hot may be re-rolled (there's no scatter dice for these).

Twin-Linked grants the ability to re-roll failed To Hits, and even then that only works if you follow that the Blasts and Re-rolls rule allows you to use the ability to re-roll To Hits to re-roll a scatter (what you flat-out disagree with in the second quoted segment).
As mentioned in my post to Nekooni, a scatter roll is not a To Hit. Twin-Linked already includes the restriction on re-rolling all three dice. If that rule is not there in order to allow things that can re-roll To Hits to re-roll scatters, then it's functionally useless, and could be removed from the rulebook entirely, as the only things that could possibly trigger it (scatter rolls) are not To Hit rolls.

Yes, Twin-Linked grants the ability to re-roll failed To Hits. Just as BS6 and Preferred Enemy also only grant the ability to re-roll 1s. Gets Hot does not require anything more than the ability to re-roll To Hits, of which BS6 and Twin-Linked are listed as acceptable. I'm not saying they wouldn't be considered acceptable for the scatter rule as well, I'm saying that only Twin-Linked is capable of choosing to re-roll Blasts. Yes, BS6 and PE meet the requirements of the first part of the scatter rule because it doesn't demand a failed To Hit roll, only the ability to re-roll any type of To Hit roll. The second requirement is one that only Twin-Linked meets.

Also, I did not disagree with your statement, you should read my description more closely. I even state that BS6 and PE meet the re-roll To Hits requirement but fail to have the ability to re-roll Blasts. Did you completely skip reading the second section you quoted?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After review, the only source of disagreement I can find is with regard to the Scatter rule. If you believe that sentence under Blast grants -anything- the ability to re-roll scatter dice when a very clear example of a rule that grants re-roll permissions can be found with Gets Hot, then there is nothing I can say that would change your mind as we are reading the same sentence with different results. As for the purpose of its existence, future codex redundancy and listing the rules for re-rolling a Blast under the Blast itself. It does not grant even hypothetical abilities the ability to re-roll scatter dice and the only reason Twin-Linked can is because it explicitly permits it.

 Arkaine wrote:
Also, I did not disagree with your statement, you should read my description more closely. I even state that BS6 and PE meet the re-roll To Hits requirement but fail to have the ability to re-roll Blasts. Did you completely skip reading the second section you quoted?

I did read it, several times, before responding. You are disagreeing with me in the second section.

I agree that GW writes rules that exist as reminders, duplications and other such things, but I do not believe that the Blasts and Re-rolls rule is one. I believe it is an allowance to re-roll blasts for abilities like Prescience and, by extension, BS6+, which can re-roll their To Hit rolls (under certain circumstances). Blast scatter is not a To Hit roll. If the Blasts and Re-rolls rule said "If the model has the ability to re-roll the scatter, the player must..." I would completely agree with you that it was reminder text, and that the only thing it would affect would be Twin-Linked and future-proof against other similar abilities.

Re: "and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon" indicates it is not mandatory to re-roll, in case you've managed to scatter to hit more models than the original placement. That is my opinion.

 Quanar wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Also, I did not disagree with your statement, you should read my description more closely. I even state that BS6 and PE meet the re-roll To Hits requirement but fail to have the ability to re-roll Blasts. Did you completely skip reading the second section you quoted?

I did read it, several times, before responding. You are disagreeing with me in the second section

Not at all, I agreed with some of your stance, I confirmed in that section that the ability to re-roll met part of the requirements of the statement, just not that Twin-Linked was granted the power by its To Hit rule. I was saying Twin-Linked had the To Hit rule and the Blasts re-roll rule so met the entire requirement for scatter re-roll descriptor, not that the scatter re-roll rule in any way grants a re-roll to begin with. That's the element I disagree with. I might have agreed had it stated anything remotely similar to Gets Hot or Twin-Linked, both of which explicitly grant the ability to re-roll something under their specified conditions. Heck, even Prescience grants the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls, a clearly expressed condition for the re-roll. The scatter rule does none of these. To claim it grants anything is absurd.

In any case, I did state in my prior post my personal preference that I would permit Prescience to allow re-rolls on Blasts simply due to the nature of its ability, not any rule. If someone wanted to re-roll a Blast using a rule like BS6 or PE, the best they can do is argue that rolling a 1 on the scatter would let them try again. Only rolling a 1 on scatter is beneficial, a "success" if you will... there's no way I'd allow them to rules lawyer that one.

sO - to summarise - opinions vary on this one, discuss with your opponent if in doubt.

Moving on.