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This is the last and only warning this thread gets.

If the tone set thus far continues then the thread will be locked and formal warnings will be given.

 Yarium wrote:
Wondering on the interaction between these two. The Gets Hot section of the rulebook states that if you can reroll to hit, then you can reroll the Gets Hot result of a Blast weapon (which rolls this separately before rolling to-hit). Simple enough. However, in the case of Preferred Enemy you can only reroll to-hit rolls of 1. This means that when using using a Blast Weapon, Preferred Enemy has no effect on the to-hit rolls; it is not possible to reroll to-hit for a Blast weapon with Preferred Enemy. Does this mean that Preferred Enemy doesn't affect the Gets Hot roll?

Here's my current thinking:


1. You get to reroll the Gets Hot result so long as you can Reroll to Hit.
2. Can you Reroll to Hit with Preferred Enemy? Yes IF you can roll a "1".
3. For a Blast Weapon, can you roll a result of "1" during the to-hit step of firing the weapon? No.
4. As such, a Blast Weapon cannot Reroll to Hit with Preferred Enemy.
5. As such, a Blast Weapon cannot Reroll Gets Hot results with Preferred Enemy.

OP your first thoughts were pretty much correct; the rules here aren’t complicated unless someone deliberately makes convoluted arguments to try and interpret the rules as they want them to be.

PE & Gets Hot for Blast Weapons
The Gets Hot rule allows you to re-roll if you have the ability to re-roll To Hit.
PE allows you to re-roll failed To Hit Rolls of 1.
You have no way of rolling a 1 to hit when firing a blast weapon and so you do not have the ability to re-roll to hit.

The Gets Hot rule does however explicitly include for BS6+ and Twin-linked to allow a re-roll. I think that these were included as if you were actually rolling To Hit (instead of making a separate Gets Hot roll for using a blast weapon) you would always get a re-roll following these rules, whatever the result of the roll. Note that PE is not present in the list of inclusions. Some appear to think these are merely examples (despite the word example not being used at all in the relevant paragraph), allowing the assumption that PE can be included as permitting a re-roll for Gets Hot rolls for blast weapons. This has no rules support whatsoever.

HIWPI: Notwithstanding the above, I’d be ok with re-rolling the Gets Hot for blast weapons using PE. This is because if you were actually rolling to hit, the criteria for failing the Gets Hot (i.e. rolling a 1) is the same as that to invoke the PE re-roll.

PE and Re-rolling Blast Scatters
This is a definite no. Similar to the Gets Hot situation:
The Blast rule allows you to re-roll if you have the ability to re-roll To Hit.
PE allows you to re-roll failed To Hit Rolls of 1.
You have no way of rolling a 1 to hit when firing a blast weapon and so you do not have the ability to re-roll to hit.

The counter-argument here seems to be as follows (please do correct me if I have misinterpreted it). Firstly there is the claim that the Blast Weapon and Re-roll rules are identical to the Gets Hot and Re-roll ones, then by claiming the inclusion of BS6+ and Twin-linked as qualifiers in the Gets Hot rules are examples (even though it doesn’t say this), which then permits the invocation of PE (even though it isn’t listed as being included), and that this can therefore also be applied to Blast Scatter rolls (even though Gets Hot and Blast Weapons are completely separate rules) to allow a re-roll despite the fact that you haven’t rolled a 1.

If this sounds like a tortuous argument, that’s because it is. Firstly the paragraphs covering re-rolls for Gets Hot and Blasts are not identical. The Blast re-rolls make no mention whatsoever of BS6+ and Twin-linked and sticks with the more straightforward statement of “If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit…”. Once again, you don’t have the ability to re-roll To Hit as you have no way of rolling a 1 To Hit.

HIWPI: Stick to the RAW. There’s no way you can re-roll blast scatters by invoking PE.

Tonberry - so what do you think a parenthetical statement beginning "including because of..." IS, other than an example?

It csnnot be changing th rule, as it is in parens
"Including" means the following is not exhaustive list.

So to say there is no rules support whatsoever is false. Utterly and completely false

You are also confusing the phrase "ability to" with "can always reroll". If I have pe or bs6+, I absolutely have the ABILITY to reroll my to hit, same as with twin linked I have th ability etc

Your entire argument fails utterly. As proven. Please mark it hywpi, as it fails to follow the clearly written rules.

So Tonberry does a reroll 1s to hit ability trigger the "ability to reroll to hit clause"? Yes or no?

If someone said it did would they be wrong?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
T

You are also confusing the phrase "ability to" with "can always reroll". If I have pe or bs6+, I absolutely have the ABILITY to reroll my to hit, same as with twin linked I have th ability etc

no you do not have he ability to , you have the POTENTIAL to, big difference

if you had the ability to re-roll, you could re-roll.

If I roll a 2 on a model with BS4 and preferred enemy does it have the ability to re-roll? nope.

It has a special rule that can circumstantially give it the ability to re-roll but that circumstance has not been met, by rolling a 1 to hit.

so yes if someone said they had the ability to re-roll, when they do not because they have not rolled the 1 to get the ability to re-roll- they would be wrong.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So Tonberry does a reroll 1s to hit ability trigger the "ability to reroll to hit clause"?

Yes if you roll a 1 To Hit. Which you can't with a blast weapon.

blaktoof wrote:
if you had the ability to re-roll, you could re-roll.

If I roll a 2 on a model with BS4 and preferred enemy does it have the ability to re-roll? nope.

It has a special rule that can circumstantially give it the ability to re-roll but that circumstance has not been met, by rolling a 1 to hit.

so yes if someone said they had the ability to re-roll, when they do not because they have not rolled the 1 to get the ability to re-roll- they would be wrong.

having the ability to re-roll and having a special rule that you can GAIN the ability to re-roll if you meet a circumstance required by the rule are not the same thing.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So Tonberry does a reroll 1s to hit ability trigger the "ability to reroll to hit clause"? Yes or no?

If someone said it did would they be wrong?

Call me over simplistic, but I have prefured enemy, this allows me a rr against only the prefured enemy units, so blast would get a rr against those units only?

 Formosa wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So Tonberry does a reroll 1s to hit ability trigger the "ability to reroll to hit clause"? Yes or no?

If someone said it did would they be wrong?

Call me over simplistic, but I have prefured enemy, this allows me a rr against only the prefured enemy units, so blast would get a rr against those units only?

It allows you a re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit against the prefured enemy units. You can't possibly do this when shooting with a blast weapon so no, you don't get the re-roll.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So Tonberry does a reroll 1s to hit ability trigger the "ability to reroll to hit clause"? Yes or no?

If someone said it did would they be wrong?

Call me over simplistic, but I have prefured enemy, this allows me a rr against only the prefured enemy units, so blast would get a rr against those units only?

It allows you a re-roll if you roll a 1 To Hit against the prefured enemy units. You can't possibly do this when shooting with a blast weapon so no, you don't get the re-roll.

I'm sure (haven't got my book) that the rr and blasts says any source of a rr, does it not?

I'll offer my perspective then quietly bow out and let you all continue the brawl...

When RAW fails, I turn to RAI to explain some of the gaps.

Preferred Enemy, from a RAI stance, as described and by its mechanic, grants a unit improved accuracy and protects them from critical misses which are the 1 result. Statistically, it gives you a 17% chance of ignoring the die result (roll of 1). With plasma guns, those 1 rolls represent the weapon Getting Hot and failing to fire at all.

Gets Hot with a Blast weapon doesn't roll to hit, true. But it should be seeing a similar treatment from Preferred Enemy. Namely, a 17% chance of ignoring the die result and improved accuracy. Well, a roll of 1 on the Gets Hot is effectively a miss with that weapon, so it would definitely improve accuracy to reroll it while still only ignoring a single die result. Likewise, if Preferred Enemy can ignore the Gets Hot of non-blast weapons, it should be able to ignore the Gets Hot of blast weapons.

This rules that Preferred Enemy permits rerolling the Gets Hot roll.

But as for the scatter... when a blast weapon Gets Hot, it does not still fire. A roll of a 1 is normally a critical miss regardless of how great your accuracy is and for Gets Hot weapons it doesn't actually fire at all. Preferred Enemy only gives a 17% chance of improving accuracy so only 17% of the time should the weapon benefit from it. Well, if 17% of the time the weapon doesn't fire at all due to overheating then rerolling the Gets Hot is already improving the accuracy. In fact, if we presumed that the scatter still happened when a weapon rolls a 1 on its Get Hot, we can say the weapon simply "misses" instead of misfires. Preferred Enemy is still preventing a miss 17% of the time.

Yet if we allowed the scatter dice to reroll... well, the only time a blast would fire at all is if it DID NOT Get Hot. Which means we're permitting the weapon to have greater than the 17% accuracy improvement Preferred Enemy grants to all other types of weapons because it still prevents complete misfires 1 in 6 times by allowing the Gets Hot roll while scatter rerolling prevents accidental misses much more often (let's just call it greater than 17%).

That is simply not the way Preferred Enemy works in any other situation and Blasts should be no exception to that.

===

TL;DR - Preferred Enemy permits rerolling the Gets Hot rolls of 1 but does not permit rerolling the scatters because by the time you are able to successfully fire a blast using a Gets Hot weapon, you are no longer rolling a 1 on the Gets Hot roll. Since Preferred Enemy only bestows a 17% accuracy improvement to all other weapons, it should not bestow rerolls every single time you fire a Gets Hot Blast weapon as that would be akin to the more powerful Twin-Linked rule for non-Blast weapons. Preferred Enemy is awesome, just not THAT awesome.

Formosa,
The problem is a lack of definition for exactly an 'ability to re-roll is....'
This has led to no less then three main-stream interpretations.

JinxDragon wrote:
Formosa,
The problem is a lack of definition for exactly an 'ability to re-roll is....'
This has led to no less then three main-stream interpretations.

Ah thanks, so is there a general consensus yet? As I run the local tourneys and will add it to the faq.

'Blasts and Re-rolls of 1' is one of the more common debates that pop up here, often with double digit number of pages before it gets locked.

JinxDragon wrote:
'Blasts and Re-rolls of 1' is one of the more common debates that pop up here, often with double digit number of pages before it gets locked.

ah fair enough, ill just ask the guys what they think and go with the most numerous answer.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So Tonberry does a reroll 1s to hit ability trigger the "ability to reroll to hit clause"?

Yes if you roll a 1 To Hit. Which you can't with a blast weapon.

Yet gets hot states otherwise

Answered how you came up with an exhaustive list yet? Or indeed any of the problems with your argument?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So Tonberry does a reroll 1s to hit ability trigger the "ability to reroll to hit clause"?

Yes if you roll a 1 To Hit. Which you can't with a blast weapon.

So if someone was to say that the ability to reroll 1s to hit would trigger that clause in a case where there was no to hit roll would they be correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Formosa,
The problem is a lack of definition for exactly an 'ability to re-roll is....'
This has led to no less then three main-stream interpretations.

Ah thanks, so is there a general consensus yet? As I run the local tourneys and will add it to the faq.

The rules specifically call out Bs6, which just like PE, triggers a reroll on a to hit roll of a 1 so GW has made their intent abundantly clear that PE works for the rerolls on blasts. Fortunately this also marries up to the RaW. Some people don't want this to be true so will claim the rules are wrong, then bizarrely call that RaW.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Formosa,
The problem is a lack of definition for exactly an 'ability to re-roll is....'
This has led to no less then three main-stream interpretations.

Ah thanks, so is there a general consensus yet? As I run the local tourneys and will add it to the faq.

The rules specifically call out Bs6, which just like PE, triggers a reroll on a to hit roll of a 1 so GW has made their intent abundantly clear that PE works for the rerolls on blasts. Fortunately this also marries up to the RaW. Some people don't want this to be true so will claim the rules are wrong, then bizarrely call that RaW.

To clarify though, the intent is clear that BS6 and PE works to reroll Gets Hot for blasts. Neither are capable of rerolling the blast marker themselves or touching the scatter dice at all. The ability to reroll mentioned in the blast scatter is reserved for always active versions such as Twin-Linked. It's not that BS6 and PE grant rerolls, but that in the specific exception of Gets Hot, they permit rerolling the Gets Hot. It's still not the ability to reroll To Hit, just an exception to your ability to reroll a Gets Hot roll, so Blast scatter still doesn't benefit due to lacking its own rule exception stating the same.

 Arkaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Formosa,
The problem is a lack of definition for exactly an 'ability to re-roll is....'
This has led to no less then three main-stream interpretations.

Ah thanks, so is there a general consensus yet? As I run the local tourneys and will add it to the faq.

The rules specifically call out Bs6, which just like PE, triggers a reroll on a to hit roll of a 1 so GW has made their intent abundantly clear that PE works for the rerolls on blasts. Fortunately this also marries up to the RaW. Some people don't want this to be true so will claim the rules are wrong, then bizarrely call that RaW.

To clarify though, the intent is clear that BS6 and PE works to reroll Gets Hot for blasts. Neither are capable of rerolling the blast marker themselves or touching the scatter dice at all. The ability to reroll mentioned in the blast scatter is reserved for always active versions such as Twin-Linked. It's not that BS6 and PE grant rerolls, but that in the specific exception of Gets Hot, they permit rerolling the Gets Hot. It's still not the ability to reroll To Hit, just an exception to your ability to reroll a Gets Hot roll, so Blast scatter still doesn't benefit due to lacking its own rule exception stating the same.

To be clear twin linked is no more always active than Bs6 or PE (twin linked allows rerolled FAILED To Hit rolls), and the scatter reroll follows the exact wording as the Gets Hot rule thus either they both work (like the rules say) or neither work.

 Arkaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Formosa,
The problem is a lack of definition for exactly an 'ability to re-roll is....'
This has led to no less then three main-stream interpretations.

Ah thanks, so is there a general consensus yet? As I run the local tourneys and will add it to the faq.

The rules specifically call out Bs6, which just like PE, triggers a reroll on a to hit roll of a 1 so GW has made their intent abundantly clear that PE works for the rerolls on blasts. Fortunately this also marries up to the RaW. Some people don't want this to be true so will claim the rules are wrong, then bizarrely call that RaW.

To clarify though, the intent is clear that BS6 and PE works to reroll Gets Hot for blasts. Neither are capable of rerolling the blast marker themselves or touching the scatter dice at all. The ability to reroll mentioned in the blast scatter is reserved for always active versions such as Twin-Linked. It's not that BS6 and PE grant rerolls, but that in the specific exception of Gets Hot, they permit rerolling the Gets Hot. It's still not the ability to reroll To Hit, just an exception to your ability to reroll a Gets Hot roll, so Blast scatter still doesn't benefit due to lacking its own rule exception stating the same.

To make it clear : you're stating that twin linked always grants a reroll? Are you sure about this? Or does it in actual fact state it only grants rerolls on a failed to hit?

And when you state it only applies to gets hot, the exact same condition - the ability to reroll to hit - is in both blasts and in gets hot

So why, when we know AS AN EXAMPLE bs6+ works for gets hot (because it gives you the ability to reroll your to hit) does it no longer work for the scatter, which has the exact same condition placed upon it?

Oh,mans why is it an exception? Please prove it is an exception actual words would be useful to prove this, as you are the second person to assert this, and so far not one person can actually substantiate this with, you know, rules

Care to explain your inconsistency with a rule, or is this another hywpi dressed up as if it is a rules argument?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Formosa,
The problem is a lack of definition for exactly an 'ability to re-roll is....'
This has led to no less then three main-stream interpretations.

Ah thanks, so is there a general consensus yet? As I run the local tourneys and will add it to the faq.

The rules specifically call out Bs6, which just like PE, triggers a reroll on a to hit roll of a 1 so GW has made their intent abundantly clear that PE works for the rerolls on blasts. Fortunately this also marries up to the RaW. Some people don't want this to be true so will claim the rules are wrong, then bizarrely call that RaW.

To clarify though, the intent is clear that BS6 and PE works to reroll Gets Hot for blasts. Neither are capable of rerolling the blast marker themselves or touching the scatter dice at all. The ability to reroll mentioned in the blast scatter is reserved for always active versions such as Twin-Linked. It's not that BS6 and PE grant rerolls, but that in the specific exception of Gets Hot, they permit rerolling the Gets Hot. It's still not the ability to reroll To Hit, just an exception to your ability to reroll a Gets Hot roll, so Blast scatter still doesn't benefit due to lacking its own rule exception stating the same.

To make it clear : you're stating that twin linked always grants a reroll? Are you sure about this? Or does it in actual fact state it only grants rerolls on a failed to hit?

And when you state it only applies to gets hot, the exact same condition - the ability to reroll to hit - is in both blasts and in gets hot

So why, when we know AS AN EXAMPLE bs6+ works for gets hot (because it gives you the ability to reroll your to hit) does it no longer work for the scatter, which has the exact same condition placed upon it?

Oh,mans why is it an exception? Please prove it is an exception actual words would be useful to prove this, as you are the second person to assert this, and so far not one person can actually substantiate this with, you know, rules

Care to explain your inconsistency with a rule, or is this another hywpi dressed up as if it is a rules argument?

Oh Nos, I love how you complete ignore what BS6 actually says and throw out the red herring of gets hot. When we look at BS6 it clearly says.

RAW:
"if a model has BS6 or higher, it GAINS A REROLL WHENEVER IT ROLLS A 1 TO HIT."

models with BS6 only gain a reroll when a 1 is rolled. The model does not have the ability to reroll and it can not gain one when rolling scatter dice for a blast weapon. If you don't roll a 1 on the to hit dice, you don't gain the ability to reroll. And as it functions nearly identical to get's hot we can safely equate the two and know that if you don't roll a 1 to hit, you haven't gained the ability to reroll.

We know twin linked works because there's a whole paragraph on "twin linked blast weapons" we can clearly see how twin linked affects 3 different types of weapons. and you're reading the wrong paragraph.

So when you look at gets hot, what do we know has already happened? Oh ya, a 1 was rolled, and if a 1 is rolled on a roll to hit, then we know the model has already GAINED the ability to reroll.

Care to explain your inconsistency with a rule, or is this another hywpi dressed up as if it is a rules argument?

Oh Nos, I love how you complete ignore what BS6 actually says and throw out the red herring of gets hot. When we look at BS6 it clearly says.

RAW:
"if a model has BS6 or higher, it GAINS A REROLL WHENEVER IT ROLLS A 1 TO HIT."

models with BS6 only gain a reroll when a 1 is rolled. The model does not have the ability to reroll and it can not gain one when rolling scatter dice for a blast weapon. If you don't roll a 1 on the to hit dice, you don't gain the ability to reroll. And as it functions nearly identical to get's hot we can safely equate the two and know that if you don't roll a 1 to hit, you haven't gained the ability to reroll.

We know twin linked works because there's a whole paragraph on "twin linked blast weapons" we can clearly see how twin linked affects 3 different types of weapons. and you're reading the wrong paragraph.

So when you look at gets hot, what do we know has already happened? Oh ya, a 1 was rolled, and if a 1 is rolled on a roll to hit, then we know the model has already GAINED the ability to reroll.

Care to explain your inconsistency with a rule, or is this another hywpi dressed up as if it is a rules argument?

So you make a to hit roll with blast weapons that get hot? Is that your claim?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Oh Nos, I love how you complete ignore what BS6 actually says and throw out the red herring of gets hot. When we look at BS6 it clearly says.

RAW:
"if a model has BS6 or higher, it GAINS A REROLL WHENEVER IT ROLLS A 1 TO HIT."

models with BS6 only gain a reroll when a 1 is rolled. The model does not have the ability to reroll and it can not gain one when rolling scatter dice for a blast weapon. If you don't roll a 1 on the to hit dice, you don't gain the ability to reroll. And as it functions nearly identical to get's hot we can safely equate the two and know that if you don't roll a 1 to hit, you haven't gained the ability to reroll.

We know twin linked works because there's a whole paragraph on "twin linked blast weapons" we can clearly see how twin linked affects 3 different types of weapons. and you're reading the wrong paragraph.

So when you look at gets hot, what do we know has already happened? Oh ya, a 1 was rolled, and if a 1 is rolled on a roll to hit, then we know the model has already GAINED the ability to reroll.

Care to explain your inconsistency with a rule, or is this another hywpi dressed up as if it is a rules argument?

So you make a to hit roll with blast weapons that get hot? Is that your claim?

No, we can see how gets hot works with blast weapons. pg 164 for you. If you need to roll a 1 to GAIN THE REROLL, rolling a d6 per shot doesn't qualify to gain you the reroll.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The rules specifically call out Bs6, which just like PE, triggers a reroll on a to hit roll of a 1 so GW has made their intent abundantly clear that PE works for the rerolls on blasts. Fortunately this also marries up to the RaW. Some people don't want this to be true so will claim the rules are wrong, then bizarrely call that RaW.

I think I can see where you're getting confused now. You seem to be saying that because both BS6+ and PE allow you to re-roll 1s To Hit, and that as BS6+ is specifically included as allowing Gets Hot re-rolls, that PE must also allow re-rolls on Gets Hot. You're then applying this assumption to re-roll blast scatter, claiming that if BS6+ allows you to re-roll scatter that PE must also do so.

Unfortunately this is a big leap of faith that isn't backed up by the RAW. PE isn't listed as allowing re-rolls on Gets Hot, and certainly isn't included as allowing re-rolls of blast scatter. Feel free to provide a rules quote showing where it is mentioned in case I've missed it though. I'm not sure how you can know with such certainty what GWs intent was either. Or are you actually arguing RAI?

Your argument also logically flawed as you seem to be giving the BS6+ and PE rules too great an equivalence. It's true that if you were rolling To Hit, that both BS6+ and PE would allow you a re-roll on a result of 1. This does not mean, however that they have the same effects in terms of shooting accuracy. BS6+ would mean you would hit on a 2+, while with PE you could still fail to hit on a 2,3,4 or more depending upon how crappy your BS is. So by claiming both BS6+ and PE equally allow re-rolls of blast scatter, you're essentially misinterpreting the rules to make the model who is shooting much more accurate when firing a blast rather than a normal weapon.

No, we can see how gets hot works with blast weapons. pg 164 for you. If you need to roll a 1 to GAIN THE REROLL, rolling a d6 per shot doesn't qualify to gain you the reroll.

Yet Bs6 works on that roll as the rules specifically call outas an example. So according to you the rules are wrong?

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, we can see how gets hot works with blast weapons. pg 164 for you. If you need to roll a 1 to GAIN THE REROLL, rolling a d6 per shot doesn't qualify to gain you the reroll.

Yet Bs6 works on that roll as the rules specifically call outas an example. So according to you the rules are wrong?

Nope, but I guess according to you only blast weapons have get's hot. there are no other non blast weapons that have that ability right?

because if some non existent pistol weapon had a BS6 & gets hot, we can clearly see how you can roll a 1 to hit and gain the ability to reroll which could then be used for get's hot.

 FlingitNow wrote:
To be clear twin linked is no more always active than Bs6 or PE (twin linked allows rerolled FAILED To Hit rolls), and the scatter reroll follows the exact wording as the Gets Hot rule thus either they both work (like the rules say) or neither work.

I must disagree. Under the Twin-Linked rules themselves it states Twin-Linked Blast weapons are always permitted to reroll scatter dice. Ordinarily you would be correct, as Twin-Linked only grants a reroll on a failed To Hit roll, yet its special rule overrides this and makes Twin-Linked Blasts an ALWAYS ACTIVE rule for rerolls. BS6 and PE do not have such exceptions listed for them and as such only grant rerolls when their conditions are met.

Both Twin-Linked and BS6/PE have conditional rerolls dependent on failures, yet only Twin-Linked has a rule disregarding this limitation. In fact, the presence of this rule should indicate other rules would require the same treatment to benefit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
To make it clear : you're stating that twin linked always grants a reroll? Are you sure about this? Or does it in actual fact state it only grants rerolls on a failed to hit?

Twin-Linked always grants a reroll for Blast weapons. The rules listed under Twin-Linked state this explicitly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And when you state it only applies to gets hot, the exact same condition - the ability to reroll to hit - is in both blasts and in gets hot

As mentioned above, that is false. Twin-Linked specifically allows Blast rerolls by its own special rule. Yet BS6 and PE do not have this convenient rule exception. Gets Hot has its own listed exceptions which pertain to the Gets Hot roll, not to the scatter rolls. The ability to reroll a Gets Hot is not the same as the ability to reroll Scatter dice.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So why, when we know AS AN EXAMPLE bs6+ works for gets hot (because it gives you the ability to reroll your to hit) does it no longer work for the scatter, which has the exact same condition placed upon it?

Because Gets Hot specifically has an exception listed for the 1-in-6 granted reroll to function on a 1 result, it does not grant BS6 or PE the "counts as having a To Hit reroll" ability for scatter as they only grant rerolls on critical misses. Even if you wanted to assume that the Gets Hot roll is a stand in for the To Hit roll, which is also false, it does not apply to the scatter because it would only apply to the scatter on the result of a 1, yet on a 1 the Blast weapon Gets Hot and does not fire at all so how can you reroll scatter when it doesn't even scatter? When a non-1 is rolled or the weapon is not Gets Hot, the Scatter rules take effect and there is no exception listed for them granting these rules any benefit, those exceptions only exist under Gets Hot. There is however an exception given to Twin-Linked Blast weapons under the Twin-Linked rules. Twin-Linked would normally NOT WORK EITHER because it only grants a reroll on failed To Hit rolls, yet there is an exception for Blast weapons listed under its rule permitting the scatter reroll.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh,mans why is it an exception? Please prove it is an exception actual words would be useful to prove this, as you are the second person to assert this, and so far not one person can actually substantiate this with, you know, rules

Rulebook entry for Twin-Linked special rule: "If the scatter dice does not roll a hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-Linked Blast weapon. If you choose to do so, you must re-roll both the 2d6 and the scatter dice."

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Care to explain your inconsistency with a rule, or is this another hywpi dressed up as if it is a rules argument?

Twin-Linked is an exception because it's literally stated in the rulebook as one under the Twin-Linked rules. No other reason. Please read the rulebook.

I think I can see where you're getting confused now. You seem to be saying that because both BS6+ and PE allow you to re-roll 1s To Hit, and that as BS6+ is specifically included as allowing Gets Hot re-rolls, that PE must also allow re-rolls on Gets Hot. You're then applying this assumption to re-roll blast scatter, claiming that if BS6+ allows you to re-roll scatter that PE must also do so. 

Yes as Bs6 is given as an example of what qualifies as the ability to reroll to hit then PE must also qualify. As the reroll for Scattering Blasts and Gets Hot blasts are the same if a rule works for one it must work for the other.

Unfortunately this is a big leap of faith that isn't backed up by the RAW.PE isn't listed as allowing re-rolls on Gets Hot, and certainly isn't included as allowing re-rolls of blast scatter. Feel free to provide a rules quote showing where it is mentioned in case I've missed it though. I'm not sure how you can know with such certainty what GWs intent was either. Or are you actually arguing RAI? 

Well as we know from the rules anything that works for Gets Hot works for the scatter as they have the same trigger. We know Bs6 works for this trigger and we know Bs6 has the same qualifier for a reroll as PE. You seem to think that an example is exhaustive. It isn't then your argument devolves into a "The rules don't work when it is raining outside" type argument requiring the rules to specifically call out every incidence. That is not how permissive ruleset works. We have general permission to reroll when we have the ability to reroll, Bs6 is given as an example that works thus all similar examples must work. Yes I am arguing RaI as I am interested in the rules of the game there is no point in arguing anything else. In this case RaW perfectly marries up with RaI.

Your argument also logically flawed as you seem to be giving the BS6+ and PE rules too great an equivalence. It's true that if you were rolling To Hit, that both BS6+ and PE would allow you a re-roll on a result of 1. This does not mean, however that they have the same effects in terms of shooting accuracy. BS6+ would mean you would hit on a 2+, while with PE you could still fail to hit on a 2,3,4 or more depending upon how crappy your BS is. So by claiming both BS6+ and PE equally allow re-rolls of blast scatter, you're essentially misinterpreting the rules to make the model who is shooting much more accurate when firing a blast rather than a normal weapon.

I don't think you know what logically flawed means. Yes PE gives a better reroll to blast weapons than to normal shooting. I don't see the problem or the logical fallacy in that? I'm not saying a model with Bs3 and PE has the same ability to hit as one with Bs6, however a model with Bs5 and PE has a better chance to hit than one with Bs6. I don't see how any of that has any relevance to the rules.


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sirlynchmob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, we can see how gets hot works with blast weapons. pg 164 for you. If you need to roll a 1 to GAIN THE REROLL, rolling a d6 per shot doesn't qualify to gain you the reroll.

Yet Bs6 works on that roll as the rules specifically call outas an example. So according to you the rules are wrong?

Nope, but I guess according to you only blast weapons have get's hot. there are no other non blast weapons that have that ability right?

because if some non existent pistol weapon had a BS6 & gets hot, we can clearly see how you can roll a 1 to hit and gain the ability to reroll which could then be used for get's hot.

Try reading the rules. Yes only Blast Weapons are effected by the Gets Hot and blast weapons rules...

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I think I can see where you're getting confused now. You seem to be saying that because both BS6+ and PE allow you to re-roll 1s To Hit, and that as BS6+ is specifically included as allowing Gets Hot re-rolls, that PE must also allow re-rolls on Gets Hot. You're then applying this assumption to re-roll blast scatter, claiming that if BS6+ allows you to re-roll scatter that PE must also do so.

So a Prescience'd unit cannot re-roll the Gets Hot result? The Gets Hot rule lists BS6+ and Twin-Linked as examples of things that give a re-roll for a 'normal' To Hit roll (we shouldn't need to be told about either, as giving re-rolls to hit is explicitly what they do, if you remove the "(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule)" part, the rule doesn't actually change), and then states that if something can re-roll it's To Hit, it can also re-roll with weapons that don't roll To Hit (such as a theoretical Template weapon with Gets Hot). The "pro-re-roll" side is taking a functionally similar rule (both BS6+ and PE 'trigger' on a 1, both Prescience and Twin-Linked re-roll on a miss), and taking that to be enough - the rulebook cannot possibly list all of the potential rules interactions, particularly for Codexes that haven't been released yet.

 Arkaine wrote:
I must disagree. Under the Twin-Linked rules themselves it states Twin-Linked Blast weapons are always permitted to reroll scatter dice. Ordinarily you would be correct, as Twin-Linked only grants a reroll on a failed To Hit roll, yet its special rule overrides this and makes Twin-Linked Blasts an ALWAYS ACTIVE rule for rerolls. BS6 and PE do not have such exceptions listed for them and as such only grant rerolls when their conditions are met.

I must disagree with your disagreement - Twin-linked Blasts may re-roll "if the scatter dice does not roll a hit, {...}" (p174).