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Trasvi wrote:

 Quanar wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
... If preferred enemy gives me re-rolls on blasts when I don't roll a 1, doesn't it also give me re-rolls to hit when I'm shooting at my non-preferred enemy?

There are 2 conditions to getting a PE reroll: It has to be against your PE, and you roll a 1.
If you're saying that I don't need to fulfill the second condition to qualify as having 'the ability to re-roll failed rolls to hit', then surely I don't need to fulfill the first condition either? The ability still exists.

If you have a nearby Divination Psyker, but he hasn't cast Prescience on you, do you have the "potential" for a re-roll? Clearly not. Pref. Enemy only gives you a re-roll when shooting at the correct target (unless it's just a blanket PE), so that should transfer to weapons that don't roll to hit. Illogical that a particular talent for killing a certain species would somehow make your plasma weapon more reliable, but it's hardly the most illogical part of the rules.

I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.
PE has 2 conditions (shoot at X target, roll a 1). One side is claiming that you can ignore the 2nd condition if you're shooting with blasts as you still supposedly have the ability. I'm saying, why can't we ignore the first as well?

Yes, its silly to try to claim that. But it shows why it would be wrong to allow blast re-rolls for PE.

I'm using the Gets Hot rule like this:

If my Gets Hot roll was a To Hit roll, would I be eligible to a reroll of my result? If that's the case, I am allowed to reroll the Gets Hot roll. The only "caveat" there is that the Gets Hot roll only fails on a 1, so a Twin-Linked BS4 Blast is only allowed to reroll on a 1, not on 1-2. Not that you'd want to anyway in 99% of cases.

Trasvi wrote:
I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.
PE has 2 conditions (shoot at X target, roll a 1). One side is claiming that you can ignore the 2nd condition if you're shooting with blasts as you still supposedly have the ability. I'm saying, why can't we ignore the first as well?

Yes, its silly to try to claim that. But it shows why it would be wrong to allow blast re-rolls for PE.

You have to ignore the second condition for the Get's Hot roll - it's done before the To Hit roll even takes place, so you can either lump in PE & BS6+ with being able to re-roll regardless of the "1", or you disallow Twin-Linked / Prescienced weapons / units from re-rolling the Gets Hot result as well - both of the latter may only re-roll on a "miss" (some paraphrasing), and you haven't done the To Hit roll yet. Blaktoof's argument is that none of what I listed may be used, as they have not fulfilled the requirement (rolling a "1" or a "miss").

If these rules are enough to re-roll the Gets Hot, then surely they must be good enough to re-roll the Blast itself as well?

 Happyjew wrote:
But PE does not have a condition of roll a 1. BS 6+ requires a roll of 1 to get a re-roll. PE requires you to be shooting at your preference to re-roll 1's. If you shoot at your PE, and roll a 2, you still have the ability to re-roll, you just don't have permission to re-roll that dice.

If I have PE(Orks), and I shoot at some Guard, and roll a 1, I still have the ability to re-roll, I just don't have permission to re-roll that dice.

No you don't. Two different concepts.

When rolling to hit with a blast weapon, what does the BRB say about the roll? Is it "to hit" or is it "scatter?"

Blast weapons are mentioned in gets hot in the BRB. You make your gets hot roll before rolling scatter and only roll scatter if you pass the gets hot roll, therefore in the case of blast weapons the gets hot roll is definitely not a hit roll and you cannot use PE to reroll it.

Jamie Shred wrote:
Blast weapons are mentioned in gets hot in the BRB. You make your gets hot roll before rolling scatter and only roll scatter if you pass the gets hot roll, therefore in the case of blast weapons the gets hot roll is definitely not a hit roll and you cannot use PE to reroll it.

Read the rest of the Gets Hot rule, particularly the last sentence. It is to this this discussion is about.

Jamie Shred wrote:
Blast weapons are mentioned in gets hot in the BRB. You make your gets hot roll before rolling scatter and only roll scatter if you pass the gets hot roll, therefore in the case of blast weapons the gets hot roll is definitely not a hit roll and you cannot use PE to reroll it.

But the rules say if you have the ability to reroll To Hits, you may reroll the Gets Hot roll.

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

If Twin-Linked is allowed for that, why would Preferred Enemy NOT be allowed? The additional limitations are "if attacking its Preferred Enemy" and "rolls of 1". All the other sources ALSO include the "failed To Hit" part of TL or BS6+, and a Blast shooting attack is clearly still "attacking its Preferred Enemy", and the roll is a 1 if your Gets Hot failed. And if you argue that Blast type weapons can never re-roll their Gets Hot roll, please tell me how you came to that conclusion based on a rule that retracts that permission given by the rule above - I've put the relevant part in bold.

On an unrelated note: Do any of you guys actually deny your enemy to reroll their Gets Hot Blast rolls if they had PE(your army)? I mean is this actually HYWPI?

Charistoph wrote:

Jamie Shred wrote:
Blast weapons are mentioned in gets hot in the BRB. You make your gets hot roll before rolling scatter and only roll scatter if you pass the gets hot roll, therefore in the case of blast weapons the gets hot roll is definitely not a hit roll and you cannot use PE to reroll it.

Read the rest of the Gets Hot rule, particularly the last sentence. It is to this this discussion is about.

Sorry my bad never noticed that extra bit before, on reading the last sentence I would have to say you can reroll the gets hot due to PE. The example of twin linked is referring to a special rule and the final line says you can also reroll shots that dont roll to hit so with PE being a special rule it looks to be ok.

Jamie Shred wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Jamie Shred wrote:
Blast weapons are mentioned in gets hot in the BRB. You make your gets hot roll before rolling scatter and only roll scatter if you pass the gets hot roll, therefore in the case of blast weapons the gets hot roll is definitely not a hit roll and you cannot use PE to reroll it.

Read the rest of the Gets Hot rule, particularly the last sentence. It is to this this discussion is about.

Sorry my bad never noticed that extra bit before, on reading the last sentence I would have to say you can reroll the gets hot due to PE. The example of twin linked is referring to a special rule and the final line says you can also reroll shots that dont roll to hit so with PE being a special rule it looks to be ok.

Indeed. What is being brought up is that you can only Reroll in specific circumstances. And until you fulfill these specific circumstances you cannot Reroll, and therefore you cannot Reroll the GH Blast.

It is too strict of an interpretation for my taste and would severely limit the usefulness of the rule to Datasheet Special Rules only, since all Universal Special Rules and options require a failure of some kind to Reroll.

Charistoph wrote:

Jamie Shred wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Jamie Shred wrote:
Blast weapons are mentioned in gets hot in the BRB. You make your gets hot roll before rolling scatter and only roll scatter if you pass the gets hot roll, therefore in the case of blast weapons the gets hot roll is definitely not a hit roll and you cannot use PE to reroll it.

Read the rest of the Gets Hot rule, particularly the last sentence. It is to this this discussion is about.

Sorry my bad never noticed that extra bit before, on reading the last sentence I would have to say you can reroll the gets hot due to PE. The example of twin linked is referring to a special rule and the final line says you can also reroll shots that dont roll to hit so with PE being a special rule it looks to be ok.

Indeed. What is being brought up is that you can only Reroll in specific circumstances. And until you fulfill these specific circumstances you cannot Reroll, and therefore you cannot Reroll the GH Blast.

It is too strict of an interpretation for my taste and would severely limit the usefulness of the rule to Datasheet Special Rules only, since all Universal Special Rules and options require a failure of some kind to Reroll.

Also the rules disagree with that interpretation as they list twin linked and Bs6 as 2 examples of working the later sharing the trigger that PE has (rolling a 1 to hit).

 FlingitNow wrote:
Also the rules disagree with that interpretation as they list twin linked and Bs6 as 2 examples of working the later sharing the trigger that PE has (rolling a 1 to hit).

Indeed. Part of the same compound sentence and use of pronouns provide the context.

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Also the rules disagree with that interpretation as they list twin linked and Bs6 as 2 examples of working the later sharing the trigger that PE has (rolling a 1 to hit).

Indeed. Part of the same compound sentence and use of pronouns provide the context.

Exactly.

nekooni wrote:
If Twin-Linked is allowed for that, why would Preferred Enemy NOT be allowed? The additional limitations are "if attacking its Preferred Enemy" and "rolls of 1". All the other sources ALSO include the "failed To Hit" part of TL or BS6+, and a Blast shooting attack is clearly still "attacking its Preferred Enemy", and the roll is a 1 if your Gets Hot failed. And if you argue that Blast type weapons can never re-roll their Gets Hot roll, please tell me how you came to that conclusion based on a rule that retracts that permission given by the rule above - I've put the relevant part in bold.


On an unrelated note: Do any of you guys actually deny your enemy to reroll their Gets Hot Blast rolls if they had PE(your army)? I mean is this actually HYWPI?

Wait a minute. what are we discussing here? I think there may be two separate discussions, or maybe I'm just confused.

Are we talking about specifically the Gets Hot roll? Then I (and everyone I've ever played with) allow you to re-roll the Gets Hot roll of a 1 with weapons that do not roll to hit if you have preferred enemy, as the effect and reasoning is essentially identical to why BS6+ is allowed, and the wording 'Including BS6+ and twinlinked' is not limiting.


There is a larger debate that that models with Preferred Enemy firing a Blast weapon of any kind, could not only re-roll the Gets Hot dice of a 1, but leverages the wording of 'Gets Hot' to also grant re-rolls of the entire Scatter roll if they wanted. This I disagree with, have never tried to use on anyone when I would have been eligible to, have never had anyone try to use on me when they would have been eligible to, would dispute with a judge if necessary in a tournament, and is in the Australian Tournament FAQ (our equivalent of the ITC FAQ) as not allowed.

Trasvi wrote:
Wait a minute. what are we discussing here? I think there may be two separate discussions, or maybe I'm just confused.

Are we talking about specifically the Gets Hot roll? Then I (and everyone I've ever played with) allow you to re-roll the Gets Hot roll of a 1 with weapons that do not roll to hit if you have preferred enemy, as the effect and reasoning is essentially identical to why BS6+ is allowed, and the wording 'Including BS6+ and twinlinked' is not limiting.


There is a larger debate that that models with Preferred Enemy firing a Blast weapon of any kind, could not only re-roll the Gets Hot dice of a 1, but leverages the wording of 'Gets Hot' to also grant re-rolls of the entire Scatter roll if they wanted. This I disagree with, have never tried to use on anyone when I would have been eligible to, have never had anyone try to use on me when they would have been eligible to, would dispute with a judge if necessary in a tournament, and is in the Australian Tournament FAQ (our equivalent of the ITC FAQ) as not allowed.

Yes. The discussion is about Gets Hot. At least who i responded to clearly was talking about the Gets Hot rule. I'm not sure how you got the impression that the topic was different from that.

I absolutely agree with you on the Scatter thing - I don't even see how one could get that from the Gets Hot rule.

You get it from the blasts and rerolls rules, though. Where it is absolutely clear that the ability t reroll is all that is required, which pe (against your pe) fulfills.

Why would you allow the Gets Hot reroll and not the scatter? They have the same wording.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why would you allow the Gets Hot reroll and not the scatter? They have the same wording.

Because one didn't read the Blast rule about rerolling?

nekooni wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Wait a minute. what are we discussing here? I think there may be two separate discussions, or maybe I'm just confused.

Are we talking about specifically the Gets Hot roll? Then I (and everyone I've ever played with) allow you to re-roll the Gets Hot roll of a 1 with weapons that do not roll to hit if you have preferred enemy, as the effect and reasoning is essentially identical to why BS6+ is allowed, and the wording 'Including BS6+ and twinlinked' is not limiting.


There is a larger debate that that models with Preferred Enemy firing a Blast weapon of any kind, could not only re-roll the Gets Hot dice of a 1, but leverages the wording of 'Gets Hot' to also grant re-rolls of the entire Scatter roll if they wanted. This I disagree with, have never tried to use on anyone when I would have been eligible to, have never had anyone try to use on me when they would have been eligible to, would dispute with a judge if necessary in a tournament, and is in the Australian Tournament FAQ (our equivalent of the ITC FAQ) as not allowed.

Yes. The discussion is about Gets Hot. At least who i responded to clearly was talking about the Gets Hot rule. I'm not sure how you got the impression that the topic was different from that.

I absolutely agree with you on the Scatter thing - I don't even see how one could get that from the Gets Hot rule.

The argument goes something like this:

Scatter results on Blast Weapons may be re-rolled if you have the ability to re-roll your 'to hit' rolls. Preferred Enemy gives the ability to re-roll to hit rolls under some circumstances. Therefore, you have the ability to re-roll to hit rolls, and thus you may re-roll scatter. This logically extends to BS6+ models having the ability to re-roll scatter as well as both re-rolls trigger on the same condition. This is further evidenced by the parenthetical 'including' clause in Gets Hot - parenthesis indicate that outlining the 'inclusion' of BS6+ is unnecessary because it already exists within the set of 'ability to re-roll to hit rolls'

The opposing side says that you do not have the ability to re-roll because preferred enemy only grants the ability to re-roll once certain conditions are met (shooting at your preferred target and rolling a 1 to hit); if you haven't satisfied the conditions (you can't roll a 1 to hit with blast weapons) then you can't get the re-roll. The distinction is further evidenced by the rules specifically including BS6+ in the Gets Hot re-rolls section - the author's need to write 'including because of BS6+' here indicates that BS6+ (and by logical extension, preferred enemy) are not usually included in the set of 'ability to re-roll to hit rolls'.

Essentially, it boils down to: Does "The ability to re-roll failed to hit rolls" mean that you need to be able to re-roll ALL failed to hit rolls, or just some of them? Its an example of Covariance & Contravariance where the a correct answer can't be given with a simple binary answer. Like a 'Do you still beat your wife?' question.

The debate crops up on here from time to time with the same 3-4 people that comment on every YMDC thread adamantly claiming that RAW supports their position (regardless of which side they're on) and everyone else fails basic reading comprehension. Its been going on since at least the start of this edition (maybe last edition as well?) and I doubt that it can be resolved by people. All I know is that I've never wanted nor tried to do it, my opponents have never tried to do it, and it is now explicitly disallowed in my tournament circuit.

The argument goes something like this: 

Scatter results on Blast Weapons may be re-rolled if you have the ability to re-roll your 'to hit' rolls. Preferred Enemy gives the ability to re-roll to hit rolls under some circumstances. Therefore, you have the ability to re-roll to hit rolls, and thus you may re-roll scatter. This logically extends to BS6+ models having the ability to re-roll scatter as well as both re-rolls trigger on the same condition. This is further evidenced by the parenthetical 'including' clause in Gets Hot - parenthesis indicate that outlining the 'inclusion' of BS6+ is unnecessary because it already exists within the set of 'ability to re-roll to hit rolls' 

The opposing side says that you do not have the ability to re-roll because preferred enemy only grants the ability to re-roll once certain conditions are met (shooting at your preferred target and rolling a 1 to hit); if you haven't satisfied the conditions (you can't roll a 1 to hit with blast weapons) then you can't get the re-roll. The distinction is further evidenced by the rules specifically including BS6+ in the Gets Hot re-rolls section - the author's need to write 'including because of BS6+' here indicates that BS6+ (and by logical extension, preferred enemy) are not usually included in the set of 'ability to re-roll to hit rolls'. 

Essentially, it boils down to: Does "The ability to re-roll failed to hit rolls" mean that you need to be able to re-roll ALL failed to hit rolls, or just some of them? Its an example of Covariance & Contravariance where the a correct answer can't be given with a simple binary answer. Like a 'Do you still beat your wife?' question. 

The debate crops up on here from time to time with the same 3-4 people that comment on every YMDC thread adamantly claiming thatRAW supports their position (regardless of which side they're on) and everyone else fails basic reading comprehension. Its been going on since at least the start of this edition (maybe last edition as well?) and I doubt that it can be resolved by people. All I know is that I've never wanted nor tried to do it, my opponents have never tried to do it, and it is now explicitly disallowed in my tournament circuit. 

If you haven't read the rules or arguments please don't try to post about them. If you have don't reread them and correct your post. Here's a run down of the "mistakes" you "accidentally" made to devalue one side of the argument:

You start of with correctly identifying that re-rolls to hit are the trigger though later change this to reroll failed to hit. You say the Bs6 trigger is seen as unnecessary by the Bs6 works on Gets Hot/Scatter side. However it is a huge part of our argument as Bs6 has the same trigger as PE and is given as an example ALONGSIDE twinlinked as something that triggers the reroll clause. When they give examples like this they generally mean those examples work.

You then come up with a bizarre new stance that the including clause is an addition to the base clause rather than an example. This bizarre claim was never made by the PE doesn't work side of the argument. Note that this claim means that twinlinked by default also doesn't trigger the clause and thus neither does prescience of anything other than Ammo Runts and the entire rule only works for Runts, Bs6 (but not 7-10) and Twinlinked.

The stances against where one of 2. PE doesn't work for scatter because the example in Gets Hot only works for gets hot even though they have identical wording because gets hot triggers off a 1.

The other (really bizarre) stance blaktoof is now taking is that the Bs6 example doesn't work for this rule and is just a misleading example of something that could give you a reroll but does not trigger the reroll clause.

Finally remember is it a reroll to hit clause not a reroll failed to hit clause as you falsely claim. So the argument is does reroll to hit trigger if you have a reroll to hit or does it only trigger if you have a reroll of all failed to hit (note how the 2nd stance requires adding a load of extra rules not in the rules).

I can see the "against" sides point.

Tommy, you can have an apple if you finish your homework.
Tommy, if you're allowed to have an apple then you can have a banana.

Tommy proceeds to screw up unfinished homework and grabs a banana.

However by calling out BS6 i think it's pretty clear GW meant for any type of re-roll to count, regardless of what triggers that re-roll.

I would say that in terms of hitting, blast weapons are not affected by preferred enemy., as they do not roll to hit. The Gets Hot! roll for blast weapons is also not a to hit roll, and is therefore unaffected by Preferred Enemy.

 natpri771 wrote:
I would say that in terms of hitting, blast weapons are not affected by preferred enemy., as they do not roll to hit. The Gets Hot! roll for blast weapons is also not a to hit roll, and is therefore unaffected by Preferred Enemy.

By that logic only Twin-linked and Ammo runts allows you to re-roll scatter. Furthermore, only Ammo Runts, Twin-linked and BS6 would allow you to re-roll Gets Hot roll.

 natpri771 wrote:
I would say that in terms of hitting, blast weapons are not affected by preferred enemy., as they do not roll to hit. The Gets Hot! roll for blast weapons is also not a to hit roll, and is therefore unaffected by Preferred Enemy.

Read the Gets Hot rule which was already quoted in this thread - and I believe not just once. It says that whenever you would reroll the To-Hit (or Scatter) result, you are allowed to re-roll the Gets Hot result. What does PE do? Allows you to reroll To-Hits of 1. When does a Gets Hot fail? On a 1.

Can we stop going in circles here, please?

nekooni wrote:

 natpri771 wrote:
I would say that in terms of hitting, blast weapons are not affected by preferred enemy., as they do not roll to hit. The Gets Hot! roll for blast weapons is also not a to hit roll, and is therefore unaffected by Preferred Enemy.

Read the Gets Hot rule which was already quoted in this thread - and I believe not just once. It says that whenever you would reroll the To-Hit (or Scatter) result, you are allowed to re-roll the Gets Hot result. What does PE do? Allows you to reroll To-Hits of 1. When does a Gets Hot fail? On a 1.

Can we stop going in circles here, please?

As it is quoted repeatedly why are you misrepresenting it? If you have the ability to reroll you may reroll with blast weapons. Rolling a 1 as the trigger for Gets Hot is entirely irrelevant.

I was under the impression that for gets hot blast weapons, you first roll a d6 to determine if the shot is fired on a fail with preferred enemy you get a chance to re roll. If it succeeds then the shot goes off and you would then roll to hit as normal if it fails the weapon nevers fires.


Edit: in fact when reading the BRB under the gets hot special rule it says "Must roll a d6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+ the shot is resolved as normal." How is that gonna let you re roll the scatter dice as well?

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
I was under the impression that for gets hot blast weapons, you first roll a d6 to determine if the shot is fired on a fail with preferred enemy you get a chance to re roll. If it succeeds then the shot goes off and you would then roll to hit as normal if it fails the weapon nevers fires.


Edit: in fact when reading the BRB under the gets hot special rule it says "Must roll a d6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+ the shot is resolved as normal." How is that gonna let you re roll the scatter dice as well?

Perhaps check the blasts and rerolls rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or you know read the thread where it is explained in detail?

 FlingitNow wrote:

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
I was under the impression that for gets hot blast weapons, you first roll a d6 to determine if the shot is fired on a fail with preferred enemy you get a chance to re roll. If it succeeds then the shot goes off and you would then roll to hit as normal if it fails the weapon nevers fires.


Edit: in fact when reading the BRB under the gets hot special rule it says "Must roll a d6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+ the shot is resolved as normal." How is that gonna let you re roll the scatter dice as well?

Perhaps check the blasts and rerolls rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or you know read the thread where it is explained in detail?

Yes, and in the specific case in which this thread is about with preferred enemy and gets hot, the gets hot rule clearly states that the roll to determine if the weapon gets hot takes place before you even roll to hit, so why would preferred enemy. Give you the ability to re roll the scatter dices after this has already been resolved?

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
I was under the impression that for gets hot blast weapons, you first roll a d6 to determine if the shot is fired on a fail with preferred enemy you get a chance to re roll. If it succeeds then the shot goes off and you would then roll to hit as normal if it fails the weapon nevers fires.


Edit: in fact when reading the BRB under the gets hot special rule it says "Must roll a d6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+ the shot is resolved as normal." How is that gonna let you re roll the scatter dice as well?

Perhaps check the blasts and rerolls rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or you know read the thread where it is explained in detail?

Yes, and in the specific case in which this thread is about with preferred enemy and gets hot, the gets hot rule clearly states that the roll to determine if the weapon gets hot takes place before you even roll to hit, so why would preferred enemy. Give you the ability to re roll the scatter dices after this has already been resolved?

without making up rules, or using a hand waving strawman argument it does not.

gets hot is a separate rule to rolling for scatter.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
I was under the impression that for gets hot blast weapons, you first roll a d6 to determine if the shot is fired on a fail with preferred enemy you get a chance to re roll. If it succeeds then the shot goes off and you would then roll to hit as normal if it fails the weapon nevers fires.


Edit: in fact when reading the BRB under the gets hot special rule it says "Must roll a d6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+ the shot is resolved as normal." How is that gonna let you re roll the scatter dice as well?

Perhaps check the blasts and rerolls rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or you know read the thread where it is explained in detail?

Yes, and in the specific case in which this thread is about with preferred enemy and gets hot, the gets hot rule clearly states that the roll to determine if the weapon gets hot takes place before you even roll to hit, so why would preferred enemy. Give you the ability to re roll the scatter dices after this has already been resolved?

Sigh. So once again. The Gets Hot rule says for Gets Hot with blasts you roll a d6 before you roll to hit, it also says if you have the ability to reroll to hit you get to reroll this dice and gives examples of twin linked and Bs6 as things that would trigger this. Bs6 gives a reroll if you roll a 1 to hit, which is the same trigger as PE has for a reroll so if Bs6 works then PE works. Blasts and rerolls says if you have the ability to reroll to hit you get to reroll the if you want to, this trigger is worded identically to the Gets Hot rule which we know works for PE and thus PE works for this trigger too, therefore you get to reroll the scatter dice due to PE. As both the reroll on scatter and for Gets Hot are worded the same then if ANYTHING works for one it must work for the other.