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"Not sure about that. This is the 41st millennium we're talking about, so I'd expect to see quite a lot of powerful weapons flying around. "

As it turns out, only Eldar get those. Seriously, stock imperial heavy weapons suck.

So you don't like that the S9 AP2 weapon doesn't always get an auto wound against a Riptide who gets what, a 5+ cover tops? When there's a more then even chance the same S9 AP2 weapon wont even effect a yellow Lemon Russ?

Or that MCs get overwatch when vehicles don't?

How about the fact I can take 15 hormagaunts and charge a riptide, making it useless the rest of the game. Hey Lemon Russ, what do you do to a tarpit unit? SQUISH. IGNORE.

Oh no! it has AP2! and worthless smash that only lets you make one attack when at best you need a 3+ to hit to begin with! I'm sure the riptide cares about that! Or are you worried about the Carnifex who will take 3 turns to cross the table with his 4 wounds?

Remember 2 months ago before Skyhammer, when combi weapon meltas were the dropunit of choice? What else did that unit have? Oh yeah, poison 4+ rapid fire bolters. Have fun with your 3+ save against 10 wounds at a time.

Both these unit types have their advantages and disadvantages. Someone saying one is significantly better then the other just lost to a list with some MCs in it. Probably Riptides.

Martel732 wrote:
As it turns out, only Eldar get those. Seriously, stock imperial heavy weapons suck.

Grav Cannons would disagree.

Those aside, I think Imperial heavy weapons were okay before the massive power creep.

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As it turns out, only Eldar get those. Seriously, stock imperial heavy weapons suck.

Grav Cannons would disagree.

Those aside, I think Imperial heavy weapons were okay before the massive power creep.

Those aren't stock imperial weapons. Those are marine-only special snowflake weapons. They are only available in a couple codices. They are NOT stock.

Imperial heavy weapons have always been garbage, going back to 2nd ed.

Datastream wrote:
So you don't like that the S9 AP2 weapon doesn't always get an auto wound against a Riptide who gets what, a 5+ cover tops? When there's a more then even chance the same S9 AP2 weapon wont even effect a yellow Lemon Russ?

The riptide can also get FnP and has many wounds.
So effectively two 5+ saves and then you need to do it many times. You could fire that weapon every turn over the course of the game and not kill the riptide. The same is not true for tanks, since you could get lucky and blow off a weapon or just destroy it.

Datastream wrote:

Or that MCs get overwatch when vehicles don't?

That is an advantage, though not a huge one. Even a Tyrant will only cause, what, just under 4 OW hits?

Datastream wrote:

How about the fact I can take 15 hormagaunts and charge a riptide, making it useless the rest of the game. Hey Lemon Russ, what do you do to a tarpit unit? SQUISH. IGNORE.

The riptide is much faster than gaunts are if it needs to be, and has the shooting required to obliterate such a squad before it reaches CC. Not to mention this is Tau, an army that has markerlights to remove cover, and 30" Str 5 guns. Removing such a squad isn't exactly a challenge for them.
Gaunts are not a threat to the riptide, or most MCs who often have a ton of attacks (DPs) or shots (see Tyrants, who have 12 TL Str 6 attacks and could eliminate this squad as a threat in one turn of shooting, and the vast majority of MCs).

Datastream wrote:

Oh no! it has AP2! and worthless smash that only lets you make one attack when at best you need a 3+ to hit to begin with! I'm sure the riptide cares about that! Or are you worried about the Carnifex who will take 3 turns to cross the table with his 4 wounds?

Neither Riptides or Carnifexes need to see melee to be effective.
I don't know why everyone is commenting on the melee abilities of MCs. Most MCs do not overly care about reaching melee, and serve as gun platforms because, unless they have wings, they are slow. Off hand I think only Daemons, GK, and Chaos have MCs that need to reach CC to be effective.

Datastream wrote:

Remember 2 months ago before Skyhammer, when combi weapon meltas were the dropunit of choice? What else did that unit have? Oh yeah, poison 4+ rapid fire bolters. Have fun with your 3+ save against 10 wounds at a time.

A squad of ten with rapid fire poison bolters does the following against the tide;
20 shots, ~13 hits, ~6.5, ~ 2 past armor. If it has FnP, it's just over one wound on average
For ten wounds, every shot would need to hit, and it won't. Poison isn't exactly common.

Datastream wrote:

Both these unit types have their advantages and disadvantages. Someone saying one is significantly better then the other just lost to a list with some MCs in it. Probably Riptides.

Are their advantages and disadvantages the same?
It certainly doesn't seem that way when you line them up. My armies tend to run as many MCs as I can get (cept eldar, because obvious reasons) while the only tanks I run are transports, skimmers, or flyers.
Looking at most competitive lists, that trend seems to follow. Maybe there is a reason for that instead of someone losing to riptides

Datastream wrote:
So you don't like that the S9 AP2 weapon doesn't always get an auto wound against a Riptide who gets what, a 5+ cover tops? When there's a more then even chance the same S9 AP2 weapon wont even effect a yellow Lemon Russ?

Or that MCs get overwatch when vehicles don't?

How about the fact I can take 15 hormagaunts and charge a riptide, making it useless the rest of the game.

Charge a riptide with gaunt? mkay

15 Hormagaunts with adrenal glands has a not-insignificant chance of destroying a LRBT.

60 attacks, 40 hits, ~7 glances. That's more than twice as many hit points as the Russ has.

So I think the riptide is better off being charged by hormagaunts than the Russ.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
15 Hormagaunts with adrenal glands has a not-insignificant chance of destroying a LRBT.

60 attacks, 40 hits, ~7 glances. That's more than twice as many hit points as the Russ has.

So I think the riptide is better off being charged by hormagaunts than the Russ.

And a riptide being charged by poison gaunts gets 15 wounds to save on the first turn alone. Not to mention subsequent rounds in which they will continue to deal damage.
But that's not the point of the unit.
If 15 gaunts reach a riptide, he is effectively gone. 200+ points that will no longer influence the game.
Unless you think his 2 attacks per turn on a 4+ can kill 15 gaunts in less then 8 rounds of combat?

Tarpit is a wonderful tactic to use on MCs.

Edit: Oh and 15 gaunts? 75 points to mitigate a 200 point model.

Datastream wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
15 Hormagaunts with adrenal glands has a not-insignificant chance of destroying a LRBT.

60 attacks, 40 hits, ~7 glances. That's more than twice as many hit points as the Russ has.

So I think the riptide is better off being charged by hormagaunts than the Russ.

And a riptide being charged by poison gaunts gets 15 wounds to save on the first turn alone. Not to mention subsequent rounds in which they will continue to deal damage.
But that's not the point of the unit.
If 15 gaunts reach a riptide, he is effectively gone. 200+ points that will no longer influence the game.
Unless you think his 2 attacks per turn on a 4+ can kill 15 gaunts in less then 8 rounds of combat?

Tarpit is a wonderful tactic to use on MCs.

Edit: Oh and 15 gaunts? 75 points to mitigate a 200 point model.

15 wounds to save is chump change for the Riptide, and will quickly drop lower as the Hormies lose their charge bonus and what few models are killed.

Also, it's worth noting that both the Riptide and the Russ are part of an army. A unit alive, but locked and combat, is more useful than a destroyed unit because you can save it. Charge them with allied Death Company! Heck, Kroot wouldn't be too bad against Hormies either.

Now tell me what I can do to save my Russ squadron that just lost 7 hull points? (That's 300 points killed, not neutralized, by 15 hormagaunts).

If you don't see the problem with the difference between MCs and Vehicles here then I have no idea what could possibly convince you.

15 wounds with a 2+ save and a fnp is not going to kill a riptide. Probably do 2 wounds.
Assuming you even get there, because tau have marker lights and supporting fire. Not to mention the actual firepower of the riptide itself.

Meanwhile, you've cause 7 hp damage to a leman Russ, killing it. If you multi charge you can likely kill 2 of them.

If that doesn't illustrate the differences not strength i don't know what will.

People who are in denial are unreachable. Unfortunately, the makers of this game or also in denial.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


15 wounds to save is chump change for the Riptide, and will quickly drop lower as the Hormies lose their charge bonus and what few models are killed.

Also, it's worth noting that both the Riptide and the Russ are part of an army. A unit alive, but locked and combat, is more useful than a destroyed unit because you can save it. Charge them with allied Death Company! Heck, Kroot wouldn't be too bad against Hormies either.

Now tell me what I can do to save my Russ squadron that just lost 7 hull points? (That's 300 points killed, not neutralized, by 15 hormagaunts).

If you don't see the problem with the difference between MCs and Vehicles here then I have no idea what could possibly convince you.

Chump change he says! Wonderful to know a riptide that will never leave assault was tarpit for the rest of the game because of their "Incredible ability to charge and be locked in combat"

Ah! But now we bring in screening units! Protection against the scary things that can harm and neutralize us if they get too close! The best part? Both of them need it!

Ok so through basic tactics we can mitigate the CC threat by using the same tactics for both unit types.....

How about ranged?
Well, Vehicles need to be shot by the strongest weapons you have, or they won't effect them at all. No chance.
MCs? I can fire S4 weapons at most MCs and still wound it. 6s sure, but luckily most basic troop weapons are rapid fire, So most are going to cause a wound to the average MCs. So 10 marines in rapid fire range, can pretty reliably cause a wound after saves to an MC.
Average vehicle doesn't care. Even if we lowball it to a rhino with 11 armor in front, bolters wont do anything.
The fact basic troops can effect and damage MCs is huge. Weight of fire is a thing in this game.

So Vehicles vs ranged will be less susceptible or flat out ignore small arms fire, while MCs have to worry about it.
While MCs have a little more durability to single shot High S low AP weapons, but just about everything can try and wound them.

Seems fair to me

"The fact basic troops can effect and damage MCs is huge. Weight of fire is a thing in this game. "

No it's not. Because they are functionally immune. You will never meaningfully threaten a Riptide or DK with boltguns. It's not even remotely fair. But keep believing that it is.

Let's also be realistic here. No Riptide will allow itself to be caught by gaunts.

Martel732 wrote:
"The fact basic troops can effect and damage MCs is huge. Weight of fire is a thing in this game. "

No it's not. Because they are functionally immune. You will never meaningfully threaten a Riptide or DK with boltguns. It's not even remotely fair. But keep believing that it is.

Facing the 200+ point models and crying when its tougher to kill them makes complete sense to me. Its like if you take a monolith or landraider and its a pain to kill them too! Amazing how that works!

Datastream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"The fact basic troops can effect and damage MCs is huge. Weight of fire is a thing in this game. "

No it's not. Because they are functionally immune. You will never meaningfully threaten a Riptide or DK with boltguns. It's not even remotely fair. But keep believing that it is.

Facing the 200+ point models and crying when its tougher to kill them makes complete sense to me. Its like if you take a monolith or landraider and its a pain to kill them too! Amazing how that works!

Land Raiders are trivial to kill compared to a Riptide. The Riptide is far too durable for a 200 pt model. 200 isn't that much anymore in 40K. In the case of the Riptide, it's dirt cheap. Too cheap, in fact.

It doesn't sound like you have enough experience with the full range of weaponry that people are deploying in 7th ed. MCs and GMCs are far, far superior to vehicles.

Hmm, so its not that the MCs are too strong.... but there are certain units within that type that maybe are too good for their points? Maybe its not the type! Maybe its the fault of the unit itself!

Again. Amazing how that works!

Lets take my Nids as example. I have 18 different MCs. Of those, 1 would be considered a powerful problem unit. The Flyrant. Is a carnifex out of line with vehicles? Trygon? Mawloc? Not really. But **** flyrants amiright?

Don't let your hate of a handful of units taint your view into thinking MCs are stronger generically then vehicles.

Tyranid MCs are better than any vehicle in my inventory. Including Land Raiders. It's the type. While they are not as crazy overpowered as a Riptide or WK, they are consistently better than any vehicle I can think of. Including things like Sicarans or IKs.

Datastream wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


15 wounds to save is chump change for the Riptide, and will quickly drop lower as the Hormies lose their charge bonus and what few models are killed.

Also, it's worth noting that both the Riptide and the Russ are part of an army. A unit alive, but locked and combat, is more useful than a destroyed unit because you can save it. Charge them with allied Death Company! Heck, Kroot wouldn't be too bad against Hormies either.

Now tell me what I can do to save my Russ squadron that just lost 7 hull points? (That's 300 points killed, not neutralized, by 15 hormagaunts).

If you don't see the problem with the difference between MCs and Vehicles here then I have no idea what could possibly convince you.

Chump change he says! Wonderful to know a riptide that will never leave assault was tarpit for the rest of the game because of their "Incredible ability to charge and be locked in combat"

In what way is the Riptide keeping a squad of melee units locked into combat for 5 phases (so half the game...probably the rest of the game after it happens) worse than allowing you to destroy 1-2 tanks a turn?
Remember, the discussion is "Are vehicles worse than MCs?".
Here we see that they are, because getting tarpitted is a lot better than just dying.

You are also discounting the fact that the riptide can move 4d6" away, or take a SMS and do some serious damage to this little squad in one turn.

Datastream wrote:

Ah! But now we bring in screening units! Protection against the scary things that can harm and neutralize us if they get too close! The best part? Both of them need it!

Not really?
Markerlights with supporting fire are enough to stop the hormaguants from being effective. No screen needed, the firewarriors are likely there anyway, and all Tau armies take Markerlight support. Overwatch with Markerlights, combined with the Riptide being able to fire once before hand with some MLs is good enough to stop the gaunts.
LRBT can't really say the same. It most likely will need to be bubble wrapped to prevent its death, which isn't cheap. It's very hard to prevent the LRBT from being in melee range on its own without investing another 1-2 units to protect it. And some armies can just pod in or jump past the screening units...or kill the screening units (Wraiths).

Datastream wrote:

Ok so through basic tactics we can mitigate the CC threat by using the same tactics for both unit types.....

True, but this is a lot easier for the riptide, which it's greater toughness, better shooting, and better speed.

Datastream wrote:

How about ranged?
Well, Vehicles need to be shot by the strongest weapons you have, or they won't effect them at all. No chance.

Uh, that's not remotely true.
Your gaunts kill cause 7HP a turn. They cause 1-2 wounds against an MC. The MCs are tougher because they have armor saves, invuls, and sometimes FnP

Compare Scatbikes firing at a Dreadnought versus a Wraithlord. The Wraithlord lives a lot longer, due to an armor save. MCs also have an easier time getting cover saves as well.
That is not even including the fact that many of the strongest/most common weapons (Grav, Melta) are extra effective against vehicles, and the vehicles have to roll on a damage table.

Datastream wrote:

MCs? I can fire S4 weapons at most MCs and still wound it. 6s sure, but luckily most basic troop weapons are rapid fire, So most are going to cause a wound to the average MCs. So 10 marines in rapid fire range, can pretty reliably cause a wound after saves to an MC.

20 shots, 13 hits, ~2 wounds, 1/3 after save (Riptide) 2/9 after FnP.
Let's say 10 bolters at rapid fire range will cause 1/3 of a wound on average to a riptide.
Granted, that's 1/3 more than it'll cause to a tank, but the 3 Melta/Plasma to the rear armor will cause a lot more damage to the tank then it will to the riptide.

Datastream wrote:

Average vehicle doesn't care. Even if we lowball it to a rhino with 11 armor in front, bolters wont do anything.
The fact basic troops can effect and damage MCs is huge. Weight of fire is a thing in this game.

I have a feeling you never calculated how much firepower is needed.
Small arms aren't threats in this game. You need 30 marines w/bolters in rapid fire range to cause 1 wound to a riptide. Marines are often podded (and do more damage against the Av 10/11 most armies have in the back with their special weapons than they do to MCs in cover), Firewarriors are Str 5, Scat bikes are Str 6, Necrons have gauss...none of the better armies are afraid of light tanks. Most aren't afraid of heavy tanks either.

Datastream wrote:

So Vehicles vs ranged will be less susceptible or flat out ignore small arms fire, while MCs have to worry about it.
While MCs have a little more durability to single shot High S low AP weapons, but just about everything can try and wound them.

Seems fair to me

Probably because you haven't done the math.
Once you do, you will see that MCs are much tougher for the points paid, and are often better in nearly every way, outside of rare exceptions (skimmers, flyers, 35pt transports).

The logic in play here is likely the same as GW: rolling dice is what's important and fun, no matter how unlikely the desired outcome is.

Yeah, MC's > Vehicles, in every sense. If vehicles had some sort of Overwatch and like a 3+ save against glances, sure, maybe we'd get somewhere.

Take MCs and Vehicles of equivalent points, put em against each other in a fight. Tell me who wins.

Martel732 wrote:
Tyranid MCs are better than any vehicle in my inventory. Including Land Raiders. It's the type. While they are not as crazy overpowered as a Riptide or WK, they are consistently better than any vehicle I can think of. Including things like Sicarans or IKs.

Saying they are stronger inherently and providing reasons for this are two separate things.

EX:
Monstrous creature average toughness is 6, save 3+, 4W.
Average vehicle armor is 12, 3HP.

A krak missile is a guaranteed wound against average joe MC.
krak missile is a 50/50 chance of glancing/penning average joe vehicle.
6 missiles to kill the vehicle.
4 to kill the MC.
Lets say the MC is in cover, which is not guaranteed at all. And saves one. Still just 5 missiles.

Pretty close. But vehicles still have the vehicle damage chart. So you're looking at ~16% chance a missile will knock off a weapon or immobilize it.
Pretty fair to me. Eyeballing it puts it pretty damn close. Nothing I would call significant.

Yeah, a lucky lascannon shot can down a vehicle in one go. But flip it and an instant death weapon can kill an MC in one go. Not mentioning T5 MCs can be doubled out same as infantry.

Instant death is very rare. And usually very risky.

Except average marine vehicle armor is 11, not 12.

MCs get cover easier than vehicles get concealment.

No one who is good is using krak missiles. Try your math for scatterlasers now, a real weapon.

Datastream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tyranid MCs are better than any vehicle in my inventory. Including Land Raiders. It's the type. While they are not as crazy overpowered as a Riptide or WK, they are consistently better than any vehicle I can think of. Including things like Sicarans or IKs.

Saying they are stronger inherently and providing reasons for this are two separate things.

EX:
Monstrous creature average toughness is 6, save 3+, 4W.
Average vehicle armor is 12, 3HP.

A krak missile is a guaranteed wound against average joe MC.
krak missile is a 50/50 chance of glancing/penning average joe vehicle.
6 missiles to kill the vehicle.
4 to kill the MC.
Lets say the MC is in cover, which is not guaranteed at all. And saves one. Still just 5 missiles.

Pretty close. But vehicles still have the vehicle damage chart. So you're looking at ~16% chance a missile will knock off a weapon or immobilize it.
Pretty fair to me. Eyeballing it puts it pretty damn close. Nothing I would call significant.

Yeah, a lucky lascannon shot can down a vehicle in one go. But flip it and an instant death weapon can kill an MC in one go. Not mentioning T5 MCs can be doubled out same as infantry.

Consider your same example with a different weapon:

EX:
Monstrous creature average toughness is 6, save 3+, 4W.
Average vehicle armor is 12, 3HP.

An autocannon is a 66% chance to wound against average joe MC.
Autocannons are is a 33% chance of glancing/penning average joe vehicle.
18 shots at BS3 to kill the vehicle.
36 shots at BS3 to kill the MC.
Lets say the vehicle is in cover, which is not guaranteed at all. And saves one. Still just 10 hits.

Not close at all. But vehicles still have the vehicle damage chart. So you're looking at ~10% chance for an autocannon knock off a weapon or immobilize it.
This isn't fair at all. Eyeballing it shows a wide disparity. That armour save is significant.

The humble autocannon is far more dangerous to most vehicles than a lascannon. Especially on a per point basis. Pathetic.

Martel732 wrote:
The humble autocannon is far more dangerous to most vehicles than a lascannon. Especially on a per point basis. Pathetic.

This. It's literally twice as hard to kill the average joe MC as it is to kill the average joe vehicle with autocannons BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS!

The stupidity of the current situation is so bad. No one would build vehicles that are this vulnerable to weapons that aren't even anti-tank weapons. Autocannons are more dangerous to tanks than to troops in power armor. WTF?

I don't think anyone's saying that a Carnifex is overpowered. MC's only get stupid when they have:

1) a 2+ save. This makes the "weight of fire" much less relevant, even compared to a 3+ save.

2) Crazy movement options.

3) FNP stacked on top of whatever saves.

4) A decent invuln save.

By and large, Tyranid MC's are not OP (the exception being the Flyrant, which is more due to the rules for flyers being janky as ****.)

The "toe in cover" thing is pretty dumb, and would be easy to fix by using vehicle cover rules.

I'm saying a Carnifex is overpowered compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory. Overpowered comapared to Riptide? No, not at all. But that's a high bar to reach.

We come full circle to "Riptide is OP. Burn the Riptide"

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
We come full circle to "Riptide is OP. Burn the Riptide"

Oh, I agree. But the MC vs vehicle paradigm contributes a lot to wanting to burn the Riptide. The 200 pt Riptide is better than anything BA can field for 300 pts. Maybe 400.