Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Amoras wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm saying a Carnifex is overpowered compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory. Overpowered comapared to Riptide? No, not at all. But that's a high bar to reach.

A predator ( 140p) will kill a carnifex (150p) before it ever even gets close. 3 TL Lascannons at 48". Wounding on 2 with no save it dies in 2 turns. Say it runs the max every turn it will take 4 turns to get close enough to charge so you can kill it twice in that time. Its devourers can't hurt your armor 13 not that they would ever come in range with 18"range.

If you are getting charged by a mc that only moves 6 a turn you made a tactical error and got outplayed. Nothing overpowered about a carnifex.

You're ignoring terrain cover saves, Malanthrope cover saves, and FNP. Also, your vehicle has to remain stationary to get those 3 full BS shots, only ONE of which is TL. This vastly changes things. Also, Carnifex has 5 Wounds.

Four but you're spot on

Amoras wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm saying a Carnifex is overpowered compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory. Overpowered comapared to Riptide? No, not at all. But that's a high bar to reach.

A predator ( 140p) will kill a carnifex (150p) before it ever even gets close. 3 TL Lascannons at 48". Wounding on 2 with no save it dies in 2 turns. Say it runs the max every turn it will take 4 turns to get close enough to charge so you can kill it twice in that time. Its devourers can't hurt your armor 13 not that they would ever come in range with 18"range.

If you are getting charged by a mc that only moves 6 a turn you made a tactical error and got outplayed. Nothing overpowered about a carnifex.

Well, one never sees Predator Annihilators or Carnifexes that often anymore. Pitting them against each other in a vacuum is a race to the bottom.

It's not just a heads-up match up. It's each unit vs the field. Outflanking the carnifex means nothing. Outflanking the predator gives you AV 11 to shoot at, which is tissue paper. That's just one huge difference. The Carnifex does a lot slower to most incoming fire than the predator.

Bear in mind that Predator vs Carnifex goes to the carnie because the Predator doesn't WANT to get into close combat and has the tools to avoid it. This is exactly what Eldar Jetbikes are capable of.

Meanwhile, the Imperial Knights definitely want to get into close combat and are frequently within Carnifex assault range.

A dakka fex can take the amazing brain leech weapons that makes the tyrant so good, just on a worse platform.

That's a lot better firepower than the predator is capable of putting out, imo.

A predator is likely to only hit with 2 Lascannons a turn, And with a 5+ Cover save It's going to take 3 turns to kill one. So it can still put out 36 TL Str 6 shots before it dies, which, IMO, is fine. Not to mention the venomthrope, if its nearby, will help a bit.

The Heavy venom cannon of the Carnifex is also a pretty good weapon, though not amazing against tanks. I don't think the carni would win against the Predator (thought it's not a horrid matchup), but the predator can't kill the carnifex before it earns its points back against most forces.

Edit,
You have the stats on a predator wrong as well.
If the carnie sees the side armor of the predator for any reason, it will cause 3 HP in one round of shooting. (9 hits on average, 5+ to cause a HP).

The more I play against IK, the worse and worse I find them. Because assault is bad in 7th ed.

Akiasura wrote:
The Heavy venom cannon of the Carnifex is also a pretty good weapon, though not amazing against tanks. I don't think the carni would win against the Predator (thought it's not a horrid matchup), but the predator can't kill the carnifex before it earns its points back against most forces.

The Carnifex has a chance of killing it if he rides a "drop pod" (Tyrannocyte) into the side or rear armor of the Predator then unleashes hell. If the Predator doesn't pop that turn from shooting, it literally cannot kill the Carnifex next turn (3 shots vs 4 wounds) and will die to a close combat assault with its multiple Hammer of Wraths and insanely high Strength. The only way the Predator is surviving is if it turns tail and runs 12" away through whatever terrain is in its way (taking dangerous rolls) and then prays the Carnifex cannot make the charge distance.

This thread is hilarious. There is someone actually comparing rhinos to MCs. The rhino isn't a battle tank, but it was never supposed to be one. If you try to use it as such, you'll just get more sore. Please, consider this: when the vehicle rules approach parity with the MC rules, those riptides that everyone hates is going to get replaced with the hammerhead, and we'll hear all these complaints again, only about its railgun.

Martel732 wrote:
The more I play against IK, the worse and worse I find them. Because assault is bad in 7th ed.

So you would agree that IK are eash to take down in cc?

I will agree with you. So many tjmes when a cheap MC smashes, penetrate, then gets a total of 7 on the dmg chart and procedes to take away 1+d3 hp frkm my knight.

Or a freaking tau fire warriors with emp grenades get into cc and glance off all 6 hp eas uh peasy because i wiff on attacks and get only 1 stomp.

Imperial Knights aren't hard to take down. Its just that they shut out everything S5 and below from even participating in the game. That is why they have the rep they do now, imagine showing up with only 10 melta weapons and seeing 3 AV13/12/12 Walkers coming at you.

 Quickjager wrote:
Imperial Knights aren't hard to take down. Its just that they shut out everything S5 and below from even participating in the game. That is why they have the rep they do now, imagine showing up with only 10 melta weapons and seeing 3 AV13/12/12 Walkers coming at you.

Fortunately for enemy armies, there are entire lists of S6 or higher. IK just die against those lists.

 Quickjager wrote:
Imperial Knights aren't hard to take down. Its just that they shut out everything S5 and below from even participating in the game. That is why they have the rep they do now, imagine showing up with only 10 melta weapons and seeing 3 AV13/12/12 Walkers coming at you.

That's my big annoyance with them. I don't really mind, at this point, that their rules, but the fact that it makes a good 65%+ of my attacks useless is so annoying. It basically means that the only chance my infantry have in contributing to battle is grabbing objectives.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Imperial Knights aren't hard to take down. Its just that they shut out everything S5 and below from even participating in the game. That is why they have the rep they do now, imagine showing up with only 10 melta weapons and seeing 3 AV13/12/12 Walkers coming at you.

That's my big annoyance with them. I don't really mind, at this point, that their rules, but the fact that it makes a good 65%+ of my attacks useless is so annoying. It basically means that the only chance my infantry have in contributing to battle is grabbing objectives.

I agree that this is currently the worst part about the game for most of the dexes.

Making a list with my eldar or necrons is an enjoyable experience. I can pick a wide range of units and still feel like I can play the game.

Sm and tau can do the same, though to a lesser extent by a wide margin.

Chaos and Nids can't do this at all.

Martel732 wrote:

Datastream wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory

Hey m8, I play Guard. I recognize that vehicles are in a bit of a bad place right now, as are Blood Angels. But you can't say that when you have access to one of the best (for its price) transports in the game in the Rhino.

Man you want best vehicle look at a marine drop pod. First turn deepstrike, 12 on all side, can never mishap, objective secured, pillar of annoyance. Sure, shoot at the 12Ar 3HP rock that's 35 points. I'll kill you with the rest of my army while it earns objective points without doing anything!

Drop pods are very overrated. I've never had problems with generic drop lists. Skyhammer and SW, yes. But the drop pod itself is pretty easy to defend against. It's all in the deployment. Complaining about drop pods is very 5th ed. And MCs are still better hand down, because they will kill the squad that comes out and then kick over the drop pod.

Drop pods can mishap. That statement shows your lack of understanding.

Also realize troops in drop pods are stranded after they drop. Stranded on foot = dead in 7th ed.

+1. I've never understood why people take drop pods lists outside of the odd pod for a suicide squad. I can only think they play against lists that never move and set up poorly.

Everyone on Dakka seems to lose their mind against drop pods, though. Too bad no one in my play group does.

A few are certainly useful, but I rarely see more than 3 taken locally by most armies. Usually used to alpha strike something with plasma/grav off the table that's dangerous.

It's effective, but spamming it and winning is usually the mark of a weak meta imo.

No one where I play lets you alpha anything worthwhile. Because they can see your list.

Martel732 wrote:
No one where I play lets you alpha anything worthwhile. Because they can see your list.

We play the same. I still manage to target an MC, GMC, or tank (rarely the latter...they are rare), or useful unit off the table with my SM.
SM have a lot better choices for what to pod then BA though. I can put a few grav weapons or spam combi plas, along with the cent star, allowing me to kill 2-3 units right off the bat. Depends on my opponent, but usually

Against eldar, I target Windriders or Wraith Knight. I'm usually capable of removing 15 windriders pretty reliably, or 1 wraith knight. I don't target warp spiders because they will flicker away, though if they deploy poorly I will target them over wind riders. Wraith knights are obscene, with 2 grav units I should really be able to kill 2 but whatever.
Against SM, I try to kill their grav cents quickly. Whoever keeps their grav cents alive longer usually wins, imo.
Against Necrons, I target destroyers with grav cents and plasma goes into the wraiths/spyders. Necrons give me the most trouble.
Against Tau I target the Riptide. I haven't played against the newer models yet however, so I might target the storm surge.
Against Nids the cents target the Flyrants, combi-plasma targets a carni. Usually I can remove one of each.

Going first is a big deal if I play SM.

Eldar usually make their windrider inaccessible to drops in my experience.