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 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Consider your same example with a different weapon:

EX:
Monstrous creature average toughness is 6, save 3+, 4W.
Average vehicle armor is 12, 3HP.

An autocannon is a 66% chance to wound against average joe MC.
Autocannons are is a 33% chance of glancing/penning average joe vehicle.
9 hits to kill the vehicle.
18 hits to kill the MC.
Lets say the vehicle is in cover, which is not guaranteed at all. And saves one. Still just 10 hits.

Not close at all. But vehicles still have the vehicle damage chart. So you're looking at ~10% chance for an autocannon knock off a weapon or immobilize it.
This isn't fair at all. Eyeballing it shows a wide disparity. That armour save is significant.

Consider your same example with a different weapon.

EX:
Monstrous creature average toughness is 6, save 3+, 4W.
Average vehicle armor is 12, 3HP.

A gravcannon is a 88% chance to wound against average joe MC.
Gravcannon is a 33% chance of glancing average joe vehicle.
9 hits to kill the vehicle.
4.25 hits to kill the MC.
Lets say the MC is in cover, which is not guaranteed at all. And saves one. Still just 5.25hits.

Vehicles do get immobilized after the first shot. So that sucks. But it lasts twice as many shots.

How about any ID weapon? Kills an MC in one blow. Poison. Debuff Psycher powers. Moral checks. None faze a vehicle. Who would have thought. Different, but each has its advantages.

Martel732 wrote:
compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory

Hey m8, I play Guard. I recognize that vehicles are in a bit of a bad place right now, as are Blood Angels. But you can't say that when you have access to one of the best (for its price) transports in the game in the Rhino.

MCs just have way more advantages.

Grav is only fired at expensive vehicles with high AV, so vehicles suffer there as well, as grav ignores AV entirely.

Most immobilized vehicles are pretty useless, and totally useless if they are transports.Which makes the land raider the best grav target ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lukash_ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory

Hey m8, I play Guard. I recognize that vehicles are in a bit of a bad place right now, as are Blood Angels. But you can't say that when you have access to one of the best (for its price) transports in the game in the Rhino.

I'd still rather have a carnifex. Rhino is good for a vehicle, but it's still bad in the scheme of the game. Guard are only slightly less hosed than BA because you have the Wyvern and some FW stuff that's actually good.

 Lukash_ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory

Hey m8, I play Guard. I recognize that vehicles are in a bit of a bad place right now, as are Blood Angels. But you can't say that when you have access to one of the best (for its price) transports in the game in the Rhino.

Man you want best vehicle look at a marine drop pod. First turn deepstrike, 12 on all side, can never mishap, objective secured, pillar of annoyance. Sure, shoot at the 12Ar 3HP rock that's 35 points. I'll kill you with the rest of my army while it earns objective points without doing anything!

Datastream wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory

Hey m8, I play Guard. I recognize that vehicles are in a bit of a bad place right now, as are Blood Angels. But you can't say that when you have access to one of the best (for its price) transports in the game in the Rhino.

Man you want best vehicle look at a marine drop pod. First turn deepstrike, 12 on all side, can never mishap, objective secured, pillar of annoyance. Sure, shoot at the 12Ar 3HP rock that's 35 points. I'll kill you with the rest of my army while it earns objective points without doing anything!

Drop pods are very overrated. I've never had problems with generic drop lists. Skyhammer and SW, yes. But the drop pod itself is pretty easy to defend against. It's all in the deployment. Complaining about drop pods is very 5th ed. And MCs are still better hand down, because they will kill the squad that comes out and then kick over the drop pod.

Drop pods can mishap. That statement shows your lack of understanding.

Also realize troops in drop pods are stranded after they drop. Stranded on foot = dead in 7th ed.

Martel732 wrote:

Datastream wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory

Hey m8, I play Guard. I recognize that vehicles are in a bit of a bad place right now, as are Blood Angels. But you can't say that when you have access to one of the best (for its price) transports in the game in the Rhino.

Man you want best vehicle look at a marine drop pod. First turn deepstrike, 12 on all side, can never mishap, objective secured, pillar of annoyance. Sure, shoot at the 12Ar 3HP rock that's 35 points. I'll kill you with the rest of my army while it earns objective points without doing anything!

Drop pods are very overrated. I've never had problems with generic drop lists. Skyhammer and SW, yes. But the drop pod itself is pretty easy to defend against. It's all in the deployment. Complaining about drop pods is very 5th ed. And MCs are still better hand down, because they will kill the squad that comes out and then kick over the drop pod.

Drop pods can mishap. That statement shows your lack of understanding.

If the pod lands next to my MC, the MC is dead before it gets back to my turn again. But lets charge my somehow alive MC into 10 marines. Well I'm not going anywhere for 2-3 turns if i'm lucky. 4+ to hit 2+ to wound with only 2-3 attacks is rough. But hey, I bet once their dead I can spend another full turn killing an immobile heavy bolter. That's a good way to earn back points.

Datastream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Datastream wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory

Hey m8, I play Guard. I recognize that vehicles are in a bit of a bad place right now, as are Blood Angels. But you can't say that when you have access to one of the best (for its price) transports in the game in the Rhino.

Man you want best vehicle look at a marine drop pod. First turn deepstrike, 12 on all side, can never mishap, objective secured, pillar of annoyance. Sure, shoot at the 12Ar 3HP rock that's 35 points. I'll kill you with the rest of my army while it earns objective points without doing anything!

Drop pods are very overrated. I've never had problems with generic drop lists. Skyhammer and SW, yes. But the drop pod itself is pretty easy to defend against. It's all in the deployment. Complaining about drop pods is very 5th ed. And MCs are still better hand down, because they will kill the squad that comes out and then kick over the drop pod.

Drop pods can mishap. That statement shows your lack of understanding.

If the pod lands next to my MC, the MC is dead before it gets back to my turn again. But lets charge my somehow alive MC into 10 marines. Well I'm not going anywhere for 2-3 turns if i'm lucky. 4+ to hit 2+ to wound with only 2-3 attacks is rough. But hey, I bet once their dead I can spend another full turn killing an immobile heavy bolter. That's a good way to earn back points.

Don't let them land next to your MC. YOU determine where the pods can land and what they can shoot when you set up. Don't suck. Don't let them beat you with a half-assed alpha strike. Force them to risk deviating off the table edge.

Also, 10 tac marines can't kill any MC in the game. 10 sternguard? Maybe, but that gets really inefficient really fast. Grey Hunters are maybe the worst non-Skyhammer units that MCs can see.

As for hand to hand, 2-3 attacks are worth 6-9 attacks that don't ignore marine armor. I have to pay for overpriced power weapons to get to ignore power armor and that's a S4 loser with one wound.

Martel732 wrote:

Datastream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Datastream wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory

Hey m8, I play Guard. I recognize that vehicles are in a bit of a bad place right now, as are Blood Angels. But you can't say that when you have access to one of the best (for its price) transports in the game in the Rhino.

Man you want best vehicle look at a marine drop pod. First turn deepstrike, 12 on all side, can never mishap, objective secured, pillar of annoyance. Sure, shoot at the 12Ar 3HP rock that's 35 points. I'll kill you with the rest of my army while it earns objective points without doing anything!

Drop pods are very overrated. I've never had problems with generic drop lists. Skyhammer and SW, yes. But the drop pod itself is pretty easy to defend against. It's all in the deployment. Complaining about drop pods is very 5th ed. And MCs are still better hand down, because they will kill the squad that comes out and then kick over the drop pod.

Drop pods can mishap. That statement shows your lack of understanding.

If the pod lands next to my MC, the MC is dead before it gets back to my turn again. But lets charge my somehow alive MC into 10 marines. Well I'm not going anywhere for 2-3 turns if i'm lucky. 4+ to hit 2+ to wound with only 2-3 attacks is rough. But hey, I bet once their dead I can spend another full turn killing an immobile heavy bolter. That's a good way to earn back points.

Don't let them land next to your MC. YOU determine where the pods can land and what they can shoot when you set up. Don't suck. Don't let them beat you with a half-assed alpha strike. Force them to risk deviating off the table edge.

You're right. They'll just beat me with their NON half assed alpha strike. I face drop cent lists in my meta. They point and that flank dies. "Misshaping off the table edge" is only likely if your opponent is an idiot, I assumed that was obvious. Interesting how the crux of that powerful meta is reliant on VEHICLES. What is reliant on MCs? ummm tau? kinda? Yeah, one army is your problem but its all MCs that are absurd!

Datastream wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Consider your same example with a different weapon:

EX:
Monstrous creature average toughness is 6, save 3+, 4W.
Average vehicle armor is 12, 3HP.

An autocannon is a 66% chance to wound against average joe MC.
Autocannons are is a 33% chance of glancing/penning average joe vehicle.
9 hits to kill the vehicle.
18 hits to kill the MC.
Lets say the vehicle is in cover, which is not guaranteed at all. And saves one. Still just 10 hits.

Not close at all. But vehicles still have the vehicle damage chart. So you're looking at ~10% chance for an autocannon knock off a weapon or immobilize it.
This isn't fair at all. Eyeballing it shows a wide disparity. That armour save is significant.

Consider your same example with a different weapon.

EX:
Monstrous creature average toughness is 6, save 3+, 4W.
Average vehicle armor is 12, 3HP.

A gravcannon is a 88% chance to wound against average joe MC.
Gravcannon is a 33% chance of glancing average joe vehicle.
9 hits to kill the vehicle.
4.25 hits to kill the MC.
Lets say the MC is in cover, which is not guaranteed at all. And saves one. Still just 5.25hits.

Vehicles do get immobilized after the first shot. So that sucks. But it lasts twice as many shots.

How about any ID weapon? Kills an MC in one blow. Poison. Debuff Psycher powers. Moral checks. None faze a vehicle. Who would have thought. Different, but each has its advantages.

Grav is one weapon type that not all armies can access. Consider the following statement:

"Barring special rules, Vehicles are about equal to monstrous creatures when being fired at by weapons that ignore the Monstrous Creature's armour."

Do you are or disagree?

Drop pods don't make grav cents good. Grav cents are actually better off in a Draigo gate unit. At least with with drop pods, you can get away from the grav cents once they drop. With a gating unit, you are just hosed.

In your drop pod counter example, it's not important that the drop pod is a vehicle at all. It doesn't matter if it lives or dies because it's primary purpose is to deliver a unit. The drop pod could be an MC and nothing would change.

Furthermore, your example requires a very specific unit to be put in said drop pod. If drop pods alone were good, Flesh Tearers would be awesome, because they can take so many. Turns out, they aren't because BA units are fething gakky. Including the drop pod, because in this case, there's nothing to load in them worth a dman.

Every MC has multiple wounds backed up by an armor save. Every MC ignores all armor in hand to hand. Every MC can abuse the cover rules. Every MC is virtually immune to small arms fire. Every T6 MC is impossible to double out with any weapon in the game, no matter how expensive that weapon is.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm saying a Carnifex is overpowered compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory. Overpowered comapared to Riptide? No, not at all. But that's a high bar to reach.

Well yeah because a Carnifex can destroy a Super Heavy purely with Hammer of Wrath attacks. Nevermind its actual claws.

Vehicles have too many restrictions to be as effective as an MC. They can't easily move and fire, have issues with terrain, suffer crew effects on every pen, and die in one hit quite often. Every tough vehicle can only be harmed by AP2ish weapons so it's almost like they have a second To Wound roll that Instant Deaths on 6s. Melta does it on 5s and 6s.

This can be fine if they were inexpensive and brought the firepower to match their vulnerability. Glass cannons are okay and we're in a world where virtually everything has access to some sort of anti-tank level weapon, even if it's close combat krak grenades against rear armor. But most vehicles are overpriced and don't do anywhere near their point value in offense while often being rendered useless for a turn by even a single pen. MCs and even infantry don't have that issue, a single wound or a single lost soldier doesn't affect the ability to shoot.

Look at a Predator... 75 pts for an Autocannon. The same cost as a troop of five Havocs. The Havocs can take THREE Lascannons for 60pts. The Predator can swap and get sponsons for three Lascannons, one of which is twin-linked. Havocs = 135 pts, Predator = 140 pts. Granted, it's harder to kill the predator than a bunch of infantry but the infantry is guaranteed five wounds and doesn't snap shoot if it loses a guy. The tank can move and fire a single weapon but the infantry snap shoots its heavy stuff UNLESS you give them Relentless somehow, which things like Centurions, Bikers, and Terminators get already. Considering the Havocs can take a fourth Lascannon and upgrade their squad with even more wound buffers, I'd take them over the Predator any day. There's no point having three Lascannons that might not get to even fire every turn with the possibility of losing all of them to a single lucky Lascannon from the other team.

It's worse if you're using a melee walker with how vulnerable to Immobilize you are. Immobilize is one of the most common results because of AP2, AP1, and open-topped rules pushing the Vehicle Damage rolls toward exploding. Anything that doesn't explode almost always ends up immobilized or weapon destroyed. For something like a Maulerfiend or Dreadnoughts with melee and storm shields that's basically death right there. Add to that Grav weapons autoglancing and immobilizing on 6s and it's just pointless to run a melee-based non-super heavy competitively.

Honestly, I'm all for getting rid of the Vehicle Damage chart. I think that monstrosity is what's keeping vehicles from being useful and Super Heavies prove it by being usable due to ignoring it almost entirely. Keep the explosion result as instant death makes it interesting if a bit vulnerable (or heck argue for why even explodes should be removed and vehicles should be guaranteed their hull points). But everything else? Crew Shaken, Crew Stunned, Weapon Destroyed, Immobilized, these things are relics from a time when vehicles were unkillable and are no longer needed to balance the point costs. Vehicles are fairly good in price already and the simplest way to make them on the level of MCs is to remove the major disadvantages caused by penetrating hits.

Even if you got rid of the damage table, vehicles would still suck.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Grav is one weapon type that not all armies can access. Consider the following statement:

"Barring special rules, Vehicles are about equal to monstrous creatures when being fired at by weapons that ignore the Monstrous Creature's armour."

Do you are or disagree?

Barring special rules, Vehicles are about equal to monstrous creatures. End

The both fill a multitude of roles (vehicles more then MCs), and interact to the game in different ways, but neither is inherently stronger then the other.

Datastream wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Grav is one weapon type that not all armies can access. Consider the following statement:

"Barring special rules, Vehicles are about equal to monstrous creatures when being fired at by weapons that ignore the Monstrous Creature's armour."

Do you are or disagree?

Barring special rules, Vehicles are about equal to monstrous creatures. End

The both fill a multitude of roles (vehicles more then MCs), and interact to the game in different ways, but neither is inherently stronger then the other.

You are so very wrong. 85% of vehicles are unusable garbage.

Datastream wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Grav is one weapon type that not all armies can access. Consider the following statement:

"Barring special rules, Vehicles are about equal to monstrous creatures when being fired at by weapons that ignore the Monstrous Creature's armour."

Do you are or disagree?

Barring special rules, Vehicles are about equal to monstrous creatures. End

The both fill a multitude of roles (vehicles more then MCs), and interact to the game in different ways, but neither is inherently stronger then the other.

Nice dodge. Also, if we add special rules in, MCs beat vehicles, so even with your statement there MCs are better

Vehicles:
gakky relentless with a single weapon if they limit their movement.

Monstrous Creatures:
Relentless, period.
Smash
Move Through Cover

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Vehicles:
gakky relentless with a single weapon if they limit their movement.

Monstrous Creatures:
Relentless, period.
Smash
Move Through Cover

And fires TWO weapons after moving.
And frequently has an invulnerable save.
And has 360 degree firing arc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Even if you got rid of the damage table, vehicles would still suck.

LIES! Try it out, play some games where you basically ignore the Vehicle Damage table. They still wouldn't be as good as MCs but they'd actually be pretty decent artillery.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Vehicles:
gakky relentless with a single weapon if they limit their movement.

Monstrous Creatures:
Relentless, period.
Smash
Move Through Cover

And fires TWO weapons after moving.
And frequently has an invulnerable save.

Well those aren't special rules but if we are listing things:

Can defend itself in combat.
Has any save period.
Has an easier time getting saves thanks to cover rules.
Doesn't have specific defensive 'facings' to worry about.
Doesn't have fire arcs to worry about.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Vehicles:
gakky relentless with a single weapon if they limit their movement.

Monstrous Creatures:
Relentless, period.
Smash
Move Through Cover

And fires TWO weapons after moving.
And frequently has an invulnerable save.
And has 360 degree firing arc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Even if you got rid of the damage table, vehicles would still suck.

LIES! Try it out, play some games where you basically ignore the Vehicle Damage table. They still wouldn't be as good as MCs but they'd actually be pretty decent artillery.

I don't need to try it out. Most of my vehicles die without ever rolling on table. I functionally already play with that rule. Almost all marine vehicles are functionally AV 11, and three glances are easy to come by.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Barring special rules, Vehicles are about equal to monstrous creatures. End

The both fill a multitude of roles (vehicles more then MCs), and interact to the game in different ways, but neither is inherently stronger then the other.

Nice dodge. Also, if we add special rules in, MCs beat vehicles, so even with your statement there MCs are better

Vehicles:
gakky relentless with a single weapon if they limit their movement.

Monstrous Creatures:
Relentless, period.
Smash
Move Through Cover

Hey when I see a statement specifically designed to play "gotchya!" I say what I mean.

You forgot MCs Needing to take morale checks, psycher debuffs such as life leech affecting them, Can be doubled out (Yes, T5 MCs exist and more are being made with each release!)

Vehicles being completely immune to small arms fire, the ability to transport other units, ability to move 12" at will, can avoid taking slots in force org. Can fire ALL weapons when stationary

But no, keep only saying what's bad about them. I'll correct you.

But you're still dead wrong. The advantages for vehicles don't translate into table top efficacy. For example, being able to fire all weapons when stationary is not a good ability, because movement is very important in 7th ed.

Datastream

Dude, we don't care what you think because you obviously don't care what we think. Martel has been very patient along with several other posters, you have contradicted yourself multiple times. You're arguing just to be difficult at this point.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't need to try it out. Most of my vehicles die without ever rolling on table. I functionally already play with that rule. Almost all marine vehicles are functionally AV 11, and three glances are easy to come by.

I'd be fine with that though. Fantasy warhammer already has siege weapons as well as monstrous creatures. The MCs are clearly better but also way more expensive. The siege weapons are great long range support that sits on a back line somewhere. If a Rhino gets glanced to death and doesn't make it to the enemy, who cares? It cost you 35 pts and took 3 shots to the face. That's cheaper than the equivalent in Space Marines albeit they may or may not have gotten saves out of it.

What really stops me bringing any vehicles to the table is knowing that all it takes is a single lucky hit to invalidate bringing them in the first place. Would you bring MCs or super beefy Characters if every unit in the game carried Instant Death weapons?

 Arkaine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't need to try it out. Most of my vehicles die without ever rolling on table. I functionally already play with that rule. Almost all marine vehicles are functionally AV 11, and three glances are easy to come by.

I'd be fine with that though. Fantasy warhammer already has siege weapons as well as monstrous creatures. The MCs are clearly better but also way more expensive. The siege weapons are great long range support that sits on a back line somewhere. If a Rhino gets glanced to death and doesn't make it to the enemy, who cares? It cost you 35 pts and took 3 shots to the face. That's cheaper than the equivalent in Space Marines albeit they may or may not have gotten saves out of it.

What really stops me bringing any vehicles to the table is knowing that all it takes is a single lucky hit to invalidate bringing them in the first place. Would you bring MCs or super beefy Characters if every unit in the game carried Instant Death weapons?

The odds of one-shooting vehicle in 7th are now insanely low. Even with AP 1.

The sources of instant death in 40K are a damn joke at this point with things like the WK running about with ranged Str D.

 Arkaine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm saying a Carnifex is overpowered compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory. Overpowered comapared to Riptide? No, not at all. But that's a high bar to reach.

Well yeah because a Carnifex can destroy a Super Heavy purely with Hammer of Wrath attacks. Nevermind its actual claws.

Vehicles have too many restrictions to be as effective as an MC. They can't easily move and fire, have issues with terrain, suffer crew effects on every pen, and die in one hit quite often. Every tough vehicle can only be harmed by AP2ish weapons so it's almost like they have a second To Wound roll that Instant Deaths on 6s. Melta does it on 5s and 6s.

This can be fine if they were inexpensive and brought the firepower to match their vulnerability. Glass cannons are okay and we're in a world where virtually everything has access to some sort of anti-tank level weapon, even if it's close combat krak grenades against rear armor. But most vehicles are overpriced and don't do anywhere near their point value in offense while often being rendered useless for a turn by even a single pen. MCs and even infantry don't have that issue, a single wound or a single lost soldier doesn't affect the ability to shoot.

Look at a Predator... 75 pts for an Autocannon. The same cost as a troop of five Havocs. The Havocs can take THREE Lascannons for 60pts. The Predator can swap and get sponsons for three Lascannons, one of which is twin-linked. Havocs = 135 pts, Predator = 140 pts. Granted, it's harder to kill the predator than a bunch of infantry but the infantry is guaranteed five wounds and doesn't snap shoot if it loses a guy. The tank can move and fire a single weapon but the infantry snap shoots its heavy stuff UNLESS you give them Relentless somehow, which things like Centurions, Bikers, and Terminators get already. Considering the Havocs can take a fourth Lascannon and upgrade their squad with even more wound buffers, I'd take them over the Predator any day. There's no point having three Lascannons that might not get to even fire every turn with the possibility of losing all of them to a single lucky Lascannon from the other team.

It's worse if you're using a melee walker with how vulnerable to Immobilize you are. Immobilize is one of the most common results because of AP2, AP1, and open-topped rules pushing the Vehicle Damage rolls toward exploding. Anything that doesn't explode almost always ends up immobilized or weapon destroyed. For something like a Maulerfiend or Dreadnoughts with melee and storm shields that's basically death right there. Add to that Grav weapons autoglancing and immobilizing on 6s and it's just pointless to run a melee-based non-super heavy competitively.

Honestly, I'm all for getting rid of the Vehicle Damage chart. I think that monstrosity is what's keeping vehicles from being useful and Super Heavies prove it by being usable due to ignoring it almost entirely. Keep the explosion result as instant death makes it interesting if a bit vulnerable (or heck argue for why even explodes should be removed and vehicles should be guaranteed their hull points). But everything else? Crew Shaken, Crew Stunned, Weapon Destroyed, Immobilized, these things are relics from a time when vehicles were unkillable and are no longer needed to balance the point costs. Vehicles are fairly good in price already and the simplest way to make them on the level of MCs is to remove the major disadvantages caused by penetrating hits.

Exalted.

As a Guard player the vehicle rules sadden me. My Leman Russ usually gets glanced to death before it can kill anything. Nice knowing you 170+ points. I don't play against MC's enough to comment on their rules, so I'll stay out of that.

 War Kitten wrote:
As a Guard player the vehicle rules sadden me. My Leman Russ usually gets glanced to death before it can kill anything. Nice knowing you 170+ points. I don't play against MC's enough to comment on their rules, so I'll stay out of that.

All you need to know is that you can't glance MCs to death. And they shoot more weapons on the move.

Martel732 wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
As a Guard player the vehicle rules sadden me. My Leman Russ usually gets glanced to death before it can kill anything. Nice knowing you 170+ points. I don't play against MC's enough to comment on their rules, so I'll stay out of that.

All you need to know is that you can't glance MCs to death.

lol isn't that called a "wound"

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
As a Guard player the vehicle rules sadden me. My Leman Russ usually gets glanced to death before it can kill anything. Nice knowing you 170+ points. I don't play against MC's enough to comment on their rules, so I'll stay out of that.

All you need to know is that you can't glance MCs to death.

lol isn't that called a "wound"

Yes, but vehicles are dying to hits that don't even penetrate their armor. Ie, non-wounds.

I don't mind penetrating hits having a chance to kill me, it's just frustrating that I can be glanced to death by enough firepower going into my side and rear armor.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm saying a Carnifex is overpowered compared to every vehicle in the BA inventory. Overpowered comapared to Riptide? No, not at all. But that's a high bar to reach.

A predator ( 140p) will kill a carnifex (150p) before it ever even gets close. 3 TL Lascannons at 48". Wounding on 2 with no save it dies in 2 turns. Say it runs the max every turn it will take 4 turns to get close enough to charge so you can kill it twice in that time. Its devourers can't hurt your armor 13 not that they would ever come in range with 18"range.

If you are getting charged by a mc that only moves 6 a turn you made a tactical error and got outplayed. Nothing overpowered about a carnifex.