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autumnlotus wrote: The question was general power, not comparing it to vehicles. We all know vehicles are kinda trash. Take Repentent Engines: they would be a lot better as MCs, likely with T5 and 3-4 wounds. But they would still be pretty awful
A clunky robot walker whose only organic components are the highly vulnerable "pilot" and the tanks of drugs being fed into him/her would seem extremely bizarre as a monstrous creature...
Let's not get into this. Let's just stick with what is currently typed in the rules.
Okies then. Dropping it and changing subject to be more on-topic.
One of the early posts in this thread talked about the points cost of the number of Marines with Bolters needed to take a wound off of it.
Does that comparison mean that Sisters of Battle (being the same BS and using the same weapon as those Marines, but costing fewer points per model) would be better at dealing with a MC/GMC, since they require fewer points of models to deal the same damage?
Yes and no.
If MCs and GMCs were actually vulnerable to small arms fire, then yes, sisters would be better. Especially with the AoF the basic troop choice gets and being cheaper (the extra toughness marines get tend not to make a difference in this case, while the invul save sisters gets actually comes into play!).
However, small arms are actually really awful and you'd much rather take plasma guns or grav weapons. Sisters don't get access to these, and thus are much worse at dealing with them.
For example, compare dominions loaded to bear against sternguard with combi plas or centurions. You'll find the SM are much more efficient at removing MCs and GMCs off the table, because their platform for delivering the weapons that are actually useful is strictly superior. And their weapon choices are strictly superior.
You're making me wish that my friend's custom Marine faction that I like to ally my Sisters with, didn't strongly dislike the use of plasma weapons due to their tendency to overheat and kill or critically injure their users...
At least I have Exorcists...
And at least I only play games against my mom, who prefers to play Orks and doesn't have a Squiggoth.
Also, taking a squad of Marines and not giving them at least a Special Weapon seems bizarre.
While I agree, the original claim made in another thread was that MC's and GMC's are weak against small arms fire, not special weapons.
Fair point. But it seems like that discussion would be over as quickly as it started, because yeah, while the GMC will go down eventually if subjected to enough small arms, I imagine the process in practice would be like trying to take down a Leman Russ in Dawn of War 1 using nothing but Battle Sister Squads with no upgrades (or even with Heavy Bolters). It works, but it takes for-bleeping-ever and you'd be better off using an anti-tank unit. Particularly since a squad of 10 Sisters or Marines rapid-firing their 10 bolters into a GMC or MC would remove, on average, a fraction of a single wound.
Massed small arms works against heavily armored infantry like Terminators and Meganobz because their Toughness is no better than a standard Ork or Space Marine, so you're scoring a lot more Wounds than you would against a MC/GMC. It's also more effective because every wound (or every 2 in the case of MANz) reduces the squad's ability to fight back by killing off a model, denying them any shots or melee attacks that model would've had, so even if you don't finish off the last guy, you've probably reduced the unit's effectiveness significantly, to the point where a lone survivor probably wouldn't be able to destroy a squad of Guardsmen. But a MC/GMC keeps 100% of its damage-dealing power until it dies.
And for a third point, someone talked about the number of Melta-Dominions needed to take out a particular GMC in one round of shooting. I imagine that GMCs aren't meant to be taken out in a single volley, but worn down and hopefully finished off before the end of the game.
It would take 1 dominion squad longer than a game to wipe out a wraith knight (the original claim was that a single squad could wipe out a wraith knight).
It would take 2 squads (and I believe the cost is comparable) about 4 turns to wipe out a wraith knight, assuming nothing was done to stop this from happening.
It would take 3 squads 2-3 rounds, though closer to 3, to wipe out a knight. That's still half the game where the wraith knight gets to do things.
The reality, for Dominion squads at least, is that they lack the range and toughness to take multiple rounds to remove a wraith knight. A wraithknight can just move away, or kill the squad, way faster than it can be killed by an equivalent amount of points in dominions.
Most GMCs cause so much damage, and for some reason are reasonably fast, that you can't allow them to survive 4+ turns. You need to remove them by turn 2-3 or they will earn their points back, if only in how many shots they are absorbing.
Ouch. An Exorcist probably wouldn't fare much better, considering that it has the same strength and AP as a meltagun, but gets fewer shots on average. Plus side is it can do it from 48" away.
Dealing with GMCs seems really annoying, and now I'm even more glad that I only play at home against my mom.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tactical_Spam wrote: Real life physics would say a grav weapon should ID a GMC, but alas, no such luck.
GMC's are OP in non-apoc games.
Real life physics also say that a Conversion Beamer, if it managed to convert the target humanoid's entire body into antimatter, would cause an explosion large enough to put an end to life on that planet from the resulting environmental effects.
Or so I heard from a guy on a different forum who claimed to be a physicist when I asked him what would happen if an amount of antimatter equal to the mass of a human body mixed with an equal amount of regular matter.
Though I seem to recall that he said I was misunderstanding how a WH40k Conversion Beamer works.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/23 22:12:27
autumnlotus wrote: The question was general power, not comparing it to vehicles. We all know vehicles are kinda trash. Take Repentent Engines: they would be a lot better as MCs, likely with T5 and 3-4 wounds. But they would still be pretty awful
A clunky robot walker whose only organic components are the highly vulnerable "pilot" and the tanks of drugs being fed into him/her would seem extremely bizarre as a monstrous creature...
Let's not get into this. Let's just stick with what is currently typed in the rules.
Okies then. Dropping it and changing subject to be more on-topic.
One of the early posts in this thread talked about the points cost of the number of Marines with Bolters needed to take a wound off of it.
Does that comparison mean that Sisters of Battle (being the same BS and using the same weapon as those Marines, but costing fewer points per model) would be better at dealing with a MC/GMC, since they require fewer points of models to deal the same damage?
Yes and no.
If MCs and GMCs were actually vulnerable to small arms fire, then yes, sisters would be better. Especially with the AoF the basic troop choice gets and being cheaper (the extra toughness marines get tend not to make a difference in this case, while the invul save sisters gets actually comes into play!).
However, small arms are actually really awful and you'd much rather take plasma guns or grav weapons. Sisters don't get access to these, and thus are much worse at dealing with them.
For example, compare dominions loaded to bear against sternguard with combi plas or centurions. You'll find the SM are much more efficient at removing MCs and GMCs off the table, because their platform for delivering the weapons that are actually useful is strictly superior. And their weapon choices are strictly superior.
You're making me wish that my friend's custom Marine faction that I like to ally my Sisters with, didn't strongly dislike the use of plasma weapons due to their tendency to overheat and kill or critically injure their users...
At least I have Exorcists...
And at least I only play games against my mom, who prefers to play Orks and doesn't have a Squiggoth.
I'm not really a sisters player, so I couldn't say how they handle a Wraithknight. I've suggested exorcists before, but was told that is a bad decision and proves I'm not a sisters player.
Sorry I can't provide an alternative that might help you.
Fair point. But it seems like that discussion would be over as quickly as it started, because yeah, while the GMC will go down eventually if subjected to enough small arms, I imagine the process in practice would be like trying to take down a Leman Russ in Dawn of War 1 using nothing but Battle Sister Squads with no upgrades (or even with Heavy Bolters). It works, but it takes for-bleeping-ever and you'd be better off using an anti-tank unit. Particularly since a squad of 10 Sisters or Marines rapid-firing their 10 bolters into a GMC or MC would remove, on average, a fraction of a single wound.
I agree. For the record, a plasma gun does
2/3*2/3*2/3 (cover save, 5+) 8/27, so every ~3 shots does a wound. 2 Pgs and a combi will inflict 2 wounds on the SS at rapid fire range, unless I'm missing something. Equivalent points in drop pods can kill it if everything goes well, though it'll be close since it can do a lot of damage in return and won't be one rounded.
Grav, especially on a centurion with their re-rolls, is a lot better. I think a CentStar can 1 round a SS, though that's just a gut feeling and not based on math. They might need divination to make it happen.
Massed small arms works against heavily armored infantry like Terminators and Meganobz because their Toughness is no better than a standard Ork or Space Marine, so you're scoring a lot more Wounds than you would against a MC/GMC. It's also more effective because every wound (or every 2 in the case of MANz) reduces the squad's ability to fight back by killing off a model, denying them any shots or melee attacks that model would've had, so even if you don't finish off the last guy, you've probably reduced the unit's effectiveness significantly, to the point where a lone survivor probably wouldn't be able to destroy a squad of Guardsmen. But a MC/GMC keeps 100% of its damage-dealing power until it dies.
Pretty much. One of the reason tanks were so strong in 5th was for similar reasons. It was very hard to reduce their damage at all, and they could absorb a ton of firepower before dying. I've seen games where predators took an entire armys firepower and only ended up immobilized, which is insane given its cost.
Let's not forget that termies and meganobz also have garbage ranged fire power and are slow, so they usually don't start influencing the game until rounds 3-4 at the earliest. Maybe 2 if they are dropped in and are lucky. GMCs are destroying targets every turn.
And for a third point, someone talked about the number of Melta-Dominions needed to take out a particular GMC in one round of shooting. I imagine that GMCs aren't meant to be taken out in a single volley, but worn down and hopefully finished off before the end of the game.
It would take 1 dominion squad longer than a game to wipe out a wraith knight (the original claim was that a single squad could wipe out a wraith knight).
It would take 2 squads (and I believe the cost is comparable) about 4 turns to wipe out a wraith knight, assuming nothing was done to stop this from happening.
It would take 3 squads 2-3 rounds, though closer to 3, to wipe out a knight. That's still half the game where the wraith knight gets to do things.
The reality, for Dominion squads at least, is that they lack the range and toughness to take multiple rounds to remove a wraith knight. A wraithknight can just move away, or kill the squad, way faster than it can be killed by an equivalent amount of points in dominions.
Most GMCs cause so much damage, and for some reason are reasonably fast, that you can't allow them to survive 4+ turns. You need to remove them by turn 2-3 or they will earn their points back, if only in how many shots they are absorbing.
Ouch. An Exorcist probably wouldn't fare much better, considering that it has the same strength and AP as a meltagun, but gets fewer shots on average. Plus side is it can do it from 48" away.
Dealing with GMCs seems really annoying, and now I'm even more glad that I only play at home against my mom.
Don't the exorcist get d6 shots and are relatively inexpensive? I thought you could get nearly 2 for a 10 man tricked out dominion squad, but I could be wrong of course.
The extra range helps a lot, since the GMCS or riptide can't just move out of the way, like they can against melta weapons or weapons that require rapid fire range.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/23 22:24:14
Tactical_Spam wrote: Real life physics would say a grav weapon should ID a GMC, but alas, no such luck.
GMC's are OP in non-apoc games.
Real life physics also say that a Conversion Beamer, if it managed to convert the target humanoid's entire body into antimatter, would cause an explosion large enough to put an end to life on that planet from the resulting environmental effects.
Or so I heard from a guy on a different forum who claimed to be a physicist when I asked him what would happen if an amount of antimatter equal to the mass of a human body mixed with an equal amount of regular matter.
Though I seem to recall that he said I was misunderstanding how a WH40k Conversion Beamer works.
It doesn't convert a target's body into antimatter. It fires a tight beam of the stuff and the explosion is from the beam hitting another object. I am baffled the thing has to scatter...
"Alright... Lets kill that Stormsurge"
"Sir, its T6..."
"Don't worry, Conversion beamers are good at killing anything"
"Its only S10 at that range... You don't get instant death"
"But... it fires antimatter..."
"No instant death"
Edit: Somehow I missed quoted...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/23 22:34:16
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
Tau break brains being some special god damn snowflake when GW dictates what is and isnt considered a Monstrous Creature.
When will my Defiler be considered a MC? Makes about as much damn sense as my Stormsurge or Riptides... fething thing is piloted by a Warp Entity, isnt that the same as being piloted by a bunch of fish bowls?
It all comes down to Moving Product. GW doesnt give 2 shakes about rules anymore as they dictated with their blatant disregard for FAQs and terribly written Walker Rules vs MCs.
MCs by all means are just always better and Walkers and Vehicles suffer for it. Armies like CSM who literally run on the backbone of over expensive jack of all trade walkers and vehicles, masters of USR EXPLODES! will never see that kind of love because of 3.5ED.
Life: An incomprehensible, endless circle of involuntary self-destruction.
Akiasura wrote: I'm not really a sisters player, so I couldn't say how they handle a Wraithknight. I've suggested exorcists before, but was told that is a bad decision and proves I'm not a sisters player.
Sorry I can't provide an alternative that might help you.
S'okay, I'm unlikely to face a Wraithknight or and GMC at any point in the near future anyways.
I agree. For the record, a plasma gun does
2/3*2/3*2/3 (cover save, 5+) 8/27, so every ~3 shots does a wound. 2 Pgs and a combi will inflict 2 wounds on the SS at rapid fire range, unless I'm missing something. Equivalent points in drop pods can kill it if everything goes well, though it'll be close since it can do a lot of damage in return and won't be one rounded.
Grav, especially on a centurion with their re-rolls, is a lot better. I think a CentStar can 1 round a SS, though that's just a gut feeling and not based on math. They might need divination to make it happen.
Well, I do have a trio of Centurions with those grav-weapons. They're a little pricey on points, but if I'm facing a Stormsurge or whatnot, odds are good I'm no longer playing at home, so I'll probably have higher points values to play with.
Pouncey wrote: Pretty much. One of the reason tanks were so strong in 5th was for similar reasons. It was very hard to reduce their damage at all, and they could absorb a ton of firepower before dying. I've seen games where predators took an entire armys firepower and only ended up immobilized, which is insane given its cost.
Let's not forget that termies and meganobz also have garbage ranged fire power and are slow, so they usually don't start influencing the game until rounds 3-4 at the earliest. Maybe 2 if they are dropped in and are lucky. GMCs are destroying targets every turn.
Last game I played was on a dining table. Not a board laid on top of a dining table, but just a dining table. To say that melee came swiftly is an understatement.
But again, ouch.
Don't the exorcist get d6 shots and are relatively inexpensive? I thought you could get nearly 2 for a 10 man tricked out dominion squad, but I could be wrong of course.
The extra range helps a lot, since the GMCS or riptide can't just move out of the way, like they can against melta weapons or weapons that require rapid fire range.
Exorcist gets d6 shots per turn, the average of which is 3.5 but can be anywhere from 1 to 6. A squad of Dominions with maxed-out meltaguns carries 4 meltaguns and 1 combi-melta. And also I don't think one would take a full 10-woman Dominion Squad, typically you'd stick with 5 and max out their meltaguns.
And clearly I don't know how to play Sisters either, since I thought Exorcists would be the solution (earlier you said you'd heard it wasn't). I'm not surprised, I'm pretty terrible at figuring out how to counter stuff with list-building.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/23 23:00:46
Martel732 wrote: Compared to equivalently costed vehicles, they absolutely have an advantage. The tervigon, guo, and daemon price are not as undercosted as the WK and Stormsurge, but they are still undercosted compared to their vehicular counterparts.
Really lol? You think the Stormsurge is UNDERcosted? It is 435 points with upgrades! That is 1/4 of your army. Of course it should be good. but undercoated? I don't think so
Tactical_Spam wrote: It doesn't convert a target's body into antimatter. It fires a tight beam of the stuff and the explosion is from the beam hitting another object. I am baffled the thing has to scatter...
"Alright... Lets kill that Stormsurge"
"Sir, its T6..."
"Don't worry, Conversion beamers are good at killing anything"
"Its only S10 at that range... You don't get instant death"
"But... it fires antimatter..."
"No instant death"
Edit: Somehow I missed quoted...
And it gets more powerful as the beam travels.
I wonder what would happen if you fired it at a nearby moon...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/23 23:03:25
Vipoid,
Are you sure? Does the SS get FnP or something? I'm not looking at the book, so I went off of the T6 and 3+ save alone.
I'm showing 2/3*1/6*1/3=2/54, or ~1/27.
Am I right in thinking it's a Gargantuan Creature?
If so, it gets FNP via the Gargantuan Creature rules.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Vipoid,
Are you sure? Does the SS get FnP or something? I'm not looking at the book, so I went off of the T6 and 3+ save alone.
I'm showing 2/3*1/6*1/3=2/54, or ~1/27.
Am I right in thinking it's a Gargantuan Creature?
If so, it gets FNP via the Gargantuan Creature rules.
Oh, I thought it was an MC.
Then yes, that means your number is correct.
I wouldn't say it's undercosted, I would say it's about right. It certainly takes a ton of firepower to kill the thing compared to its point cost, and it's damage output is incredible, even with only 2 weapons being able to fire.
Quite literally the only "small arms" that GMCs should fear is the Rad Carbine.
RAW? Even though its Strength cannot Wound anything above T7, and it's wounding anything above T4 on 6s...
Codex Skitarii; page 74 wrote:Rad Poisoning: When firing a weapon that has this special rule, a To Wound roll of 6 causes 2 Wounds on the target unit, regardless of the target's Toughness. Each Wound is allocated and saved against separately.
ALL FEAR THE VANGUARD!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/24 00:36:04
Why would you use the wrong tool for the job then complain it doesn't work?
S4 vs T6+ isn't a great choice. This shouldn't be a shock to anyone. Yeah, you can slowly pink off wounds, but it's a very strange basis to call them overpowered on a whole.
I was a bit confused by the comment that scatter lasers are useless against MCs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: Quite literally the only "small arms" that GMCs should fear is the Rad Carbine.
RAW? Even though its Strength cannot Wound anything above T7, and it's wounding anything above T4 on 6s...
Codex Skitarii; page 74 wrote:Rad Poisoning: When firing a weapon that has this special rule, a To Wound roll of 6 causes 2 Wounds on the target unit, regardless of the target's Toughness. Each Wound is allocated and saved against separately.
ALL FEAR THE VANGUARD!
Actually, death spinners tend to be excellent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/24 00:44:15
NamelessBard wrote: Why would you use the wrong tool for the job then complain it doesn't work?
S4 vs T6+ isn't a great choice. This shouldn't be a shock to anyone. Yeah, you can slowly pink off wounds, but it's a very strange basis to call them overpowered on a whole.
I was a bit confused by the comment that scatter lasers are useless against MCs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: Quite literally the only "small arms" that GMCs should fear is the Rad Carbine.
RAW? Even though its Strength cannot Wound anything above T7, and it's wounding anything above T4 on 6s...
Codex Skitarii; page 74 wrote:Rad Poisoning: When firing a weapon that has this special rule, a To Wound roll of 6 causes 2 Wounds on the target unit, regardless of the target's Toughness. Each Wound is allocated and saved against separately.
ALL FEAR THE VANGUARD!
Actually, death spinners tend to be excellent.
EDIT
Misread
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/24 01:00:05
Martel732 wrote: So this topic came up in the now-locked Stormsurge thread. I think that MCs and GMCs are quite overpowered in the current game. Brokenly overpowered, in fact. But one defense for the current rules is that MCs/GMCs can theoretically take wounds from small arms. My contention is that they are functionally immortal to small arms instead of being absolutely immune. I think that trying to shoot small arms at them is a poor decision and that the fact that it is theoretically possible but practically inefficient is just another one of their advantages in terms of offering out false hope to opponents.
This is largely true. Nobody intentionally fires small arms at MC's if they have any other choice, it's usually just a "well, we'll see if we get lucky" thing when the rest of the squad tosses a Lascannon at the MC.
Yes, in theory while MC's are vulnerable to small arms, in practical terms, they're a minor annoyance factor at best. Even a relatively squishy MC, like a Carnifex, will take 108 BS4 bolter shots to kill, a really tough MC, like an FNP'd Riptide, will require over 400 BS4 bolter shots to kill.
The idea that "well they're vulnerable to small arms" is any sort of balancing factor just does not work once one actually quantifies the miniscule threat they actually present.
They are really hard to kill with only small arms fire before it kills everything that is a real threat.
If you rely on lasguns or bolters of course some MCs, all FMCs and (F)GMCs are very hard, if not impossible, to kill. Try Eldar. They don't have any issues but then they completely lack small arms
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Poisoned weapons only wound on a 6 against Gargantuan Creatures.
Makes sense.
Dernit.
We're arguably worse off than many other races, because we have poison instead of stuff like Plasma, Grav and such.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Martel732 wrote: So this topic came up in the now-locked Stormsurge thread. I think that MCs and GMCs are quite overpowered in the current game. Brokenly overpowered, in fact. But one defense for the current rules is that MCs/GMCs can theoretically take wounds from small arms. My contention is that they are functionally immortal to small arms instead of being absolutely immune. I think that trying to shoot small arms at them is a poor decision and that the fact that it is theoretically possible but practically inefficient is just another one of their advantages in terms of offering out false hope to opponents.
I don't know if MCs are brokenly overpowered as there are simple counters. Imperials have Grav Centurions either natively or via allies, and they have their own MC who's pretty good at killing other MCs, the Dreadknight.
Pre-empting you - yes, i'm aware BA suck. It's a shame the Lib Dread doesn't have old style wings.
GMCs (along with super heavies) of course shouldn't have any place in regular 40K outside of Apocalypse.
With regard to the game in general, I think there are far too many 'good at everything' units. Units with no real downside that just excel at everything - basically the model equivalent of Mary Sues.
As an example, do you remember when Hive Tyrants had to choose between mobility (wings) or defence (2+ save, bodyguards)?
Then we had stuff like the DK, WK and Riptide. MCs that had mobility, but did't have to trade anything for it. In fact, all of those are more resilient than a Hive Tyrant who chose defence. And, even the Hive Tyrant basically ignores this choice - because it's mobility also comes with ridiculous defence (can only be hit on 6s, can also Jink for 4+ cover).
Basically, mobility should require a trade-off - it shouldn't just be a standard addition or pitifully cheap upgrade. In fact, I'd argue that stuff like GCs, Super Heavies, IKs and even most MCs should *never* be able to move more than 6". It might even be better if they were slower still (and had to sacrifice some shooting or defence to move 6"). Basically, these are not units that should be zipping around the field - they should be great, lumbering things that need to rely on smaller, more agile units around them.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Martel732 wrote: So this topic came up in the now-locked Stormsurge thread. I think that MCs and GMCs are quite overpowered in the current game. Brokenly overpowered, in fact. But one defense for the current rules is that MCs/GMCs can theoretically take wounds from small arms. My contention is that they are functionally immortal to small arms instead of being absolutely immune. I think that trying to shoot small arms at them is a poor decision and that the fact that it is theoretically possible but practically inefficient is just another one of their advantages in terms of offering out false hope to opponents.
I don't know if MCs are brokenly overpowered as there are simple counters. Imperials have Grav Centurions either natively or via allies, and they have their own MC who's pretty good at killing other MCs, the Dreadknight.
"Imperials" don't have the Dreadknight, Grey Knights have the Dreadknight.
Talking about "X isn't broken because Imperials have allies to counter it" is silly. You don't hear people say that Dark Eldar are amazing because they have Eldar allies.
Additionally, this thread is regarding the idea that "MCs/GMCs aren't broken because they can still be hurt by a unit's basic, unupgraded weapon". That might be true for a MC or GMC like the Stormsurge or Riptide, but it's not really true for anything higher than that.
Basically, mobility should require a trade-off - it shouldn't just be a standard addition or pitifully cheap upgrade.
Aye, the fact that, in most cases, mobility enhances resiliency or firepower capability relative to slower counterparts is a huge problem.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
In reality, large things tend to be pretty fast, such as elephants and hippos. "Big and slow" is not a standard thing in nature and is noit "realistic" at all.
Alcibiades wrote: In reality, large things tend to be pretty fast, such as elephants and hippos. "Big and slow" is not a standard thing in nature and is noit "realistic" at all.
It also tends to be true for a lot of naval vessels in real life. That extra size lets them pack on more powerful engines, to the point where a US aircraft carrier can outrun its entire group if it needs to.
Alcibiades wrote: In reality, large things tend to be pretty fast, such as elephants and hippos. "Big and slow" is not a standard thing in nature and is noit "realistic" at all.
Yeah, how could anything hope to match that speed?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/24 13:05:43
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
It really doesn't matter what happens in real life, this is a war game. A game should put balance first, and then fluff as a second.
Especially in this game, where most of the fluff involves everyone wiping out whatever enemy they happen to be facing without trying very hard (unless you are guard). Bolters go from barely causing wounds to detonating bodies and opening up tanks, depending on the writer.
bag!"
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