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 jy2 wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Grimoire: Is it necessary in a Infernal Tetrad army? That depends. It is useful against armies that can ignore cover (i.e. Tau, Centstars), armies with strong assault elements (i.e. D-thirsters, Imperial Knights, Wulfen, Canoptek Wraiths) and deathstar armies. In essence, it is always useful especially in competitive play because most competitive armies will include aspects of their army where the Grimoire can be useful against. Worst-case scenario, you can run around with 2 near-invincible units as opposed to only just 1. Is it absolutely mandatory? No, but I definitely recommend it, even for an Infernal Tetrad build. Also, consider taking Fateweaver if you plan on taking the Grimoire. In additional to being just a great all-around force-multiplier, Fateweaver also makes the Grimoire much more reliable.

The problem with Grimoire as I try to put together a Tetrad list is trying to figure out where to put it. All the DPs really want 2 Greater Rewards for survivability which prevents any of them from taking it. I'm not sure where you could drop a greater that wouldn't lose more in survivability than it brings. Fateweaver really helps Grimoire consistency, but he can't be the one to take if you do that (and it opens up the discussion about whether he brings enough to the table over other options). Any of the Greater Daemons probably benefit more from the 2xGreater Reward. A Herald seems like the only real choice, but that means probably putting him on a mount to keep up with the rest of the list and almost definitely devoting points to some unit for him to hide, which is a pretty hefty point investment.

TLDR - Grimoire of True Names sounds great, but who takes it?

Why, on the least close combat one, of course. The Slaanesh one would be the perfect candidate. She isn't as resilient as the other 3 and so would be better off swooping. She's also got (or can get) Lash so she'd be perfect just flying around, buffing the other princes and then shooting the enemy with both regular and psychic shooting. I'd go 1 attempt at Telepathy for Invis/Shrouding or Shriek, 1 attempt at Biomancy for Iron Arm/shooty power and 1 attempt for either Cursed Earth/Summoning or a Slaanesh power. Of course she can always land to help out with assaults, but if it is too dangerous, she can help out from the air.

That leaves it with no defensive rewards that apply to itself (since Grim can't target the bearer. Is just swooping and armor enough to keep it alive?

Yeah, basically. It can also land to assault isolated units, backfield units or particular targets where a retalitorial counter-strike is minimal.

IMO, they can't all be unstoppable assault juggernauts. Each DP needs a role for the army to gel. Nurgle, Khorne and Tzeentch are pretty darn resilient and so can take the brunt of the enemy's offense. With Slaanesh being more fragile, you need to play her with a little more finesse and not just shove her down the enemy's throat. Hence, her role as shooter/support unit/part-time assaulter makes sense, at least to me.

You can always use the Grimoire in movement, run off the board then come back on next turn and use it to keep the Slaanesh prince safe.

Grimoire is too good not to take if you are running Fateweaver..

 LValx wrote:
You can always use the Grimoire in movement, run off the board then come back on next turn and use it to keep the Slaanesh prince safe.

Grimoire is too good not to take if you are running Fateweaver..

Flying off the board with ANY of the Princes is a very bad, awful, horrible idea. The rest of your Princes will only be T5. The Formation bonuses work when the number of Princes is "On the board".

My issue with Grimoire isn't just who takes it, but who do you use it on? Typically you are casting Grimiore on a big unit like Screamers, FleshHounds, Seekers, etc. Something that has a big footprint and can handle a failed Grimoire by turboboosting or running into cover. In a Tetrad list, you will most likely be casting on a DP and even with a FW re-roll, a failed Grimoire will be devastating to that DP.

Alternatively, players use the Grimoire on FW, which again begs the question as to why you have FW in a Tetrad list. FW should support the Tetrad, but instead keeps taking away from them.

--

 Galef wrote:

 LValx wrote:
You can always use the Grimoire in movement, run off the board then come back on next turn and use it to keep the Slaanesh prince safe.

Grimoire is too good not to take if you are running Fateweaver..

Flying off the board with ANY of the Princes is a very bad, awful, horrible idea. The rest of your Princes will only be T5. The Formation bonuses work when the number of Princes is "On the board".

My issue with Grimoire isn't just who takes it, but who do you use it on? Typically you are casting Grimiore on a big unit like Screamers, FleshHounds, Seekers, etc. Something that has a big footprint and can handle a failed Grimoire by turboboosting or running into cover. In a Tetrad list, you will most likely be casting on a DP and even with a FW re-roll, a failed Grimoire will be devastating to that DP.

Alternatively, players use the Grimoire on FW, which again begs the question as to why you have FW in a Tetrad list. FW should support the Tetrad, but instead keeps taking away from them.

--

Generally, I'd put the Grimoire on the Khorne Prince, assuming the opponent does not have a way to ignore the Nurgle Prince's 2+ shrouded cover. BTW, you use the Grimoire before you move the target DP. This way, if you fail, you can try to hide him behind BLOS terrain and in the extreme case, let him swoop for a turn. But if he's already moved, then he's just a sitting duck.

I almost never put the Grimoire on Fatey. If you do it right, you shouldn't have to against all but the most extreme lists (i.e.Tau with Skyfire on all of their riptides, a 4-5 flyrant Tyranid list, etc). Swoop him forwards against armies with little or no Skyfire. Keep him near the board edges or behind BLOS terrain against armies with some Skyfire, or fly him off the table against extreme Skyfire armies (like the ones above). One good trick with Fatey is to swoop him near the board edges, blast the enemy with Psychic shooting and then run him off the table in the Shooting phase.

 jy2 wrote:
One good trick with Fatey is to swoop him near the board edges, blast the enemy with Psychic shooting and then run him off the table in the Shooting phase.

Can you do that? I thought you could only fly off the board in the movement phase.

Yes, as long as he is in swooping mode, you can "run" him off the table in the Shooting phase. Don't forget that he runs 2D6" while swooping and he can only move in a straight line. Thus, he has to be facing the board edge in order to run him off.

 jy2 wrote:
Generally, I'd put the Grimoire on the Khorne Prince, assuming the opponent does not have a way to ignore the Nurgle Prince's 2+ shrouded cover.

If you were planning to Grim the Khorne prince would you still go Armor of Scorn for him or pick up one of the other artefacts? The strength reduction on attacks is still nice, but he'd have 3++ or better with Grim so the armor save would do nothing but open him up as a grav target most turns.

Fhionnuisce wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Generally, I'd put the Grimoire on the Khorne Prince, assuming the opponent does not have a way to ignore the Nurgle Prince's 2+ shrouded cover.

If you were planning to Grim the Khorne prince would you still go Armor of Scorn for him or pick up one of the other artefacts? The strength reduction on attacks is still nice, but he'd have 3++ or better with Grim so the armor save would do nothing but open him up as a grav target most turns.

Keep the Armor of Scorn. It is still useful to all but Grav. Grimoire protects against AP1-3 shooting, but the majority of the shooting will be small-medium (S6) arms fire. Against those, the Armor is much better due to the increased Toughness.

 blackmage wrote:
yes but then only 9+d6 wc average 12 you think that is enough?

To be honest the only powers you NEED to get off are maybe cursed earth, shrouding, or something good you roll on biomancy which are all WC1. If you only need 3-4 powers max all at WC1 then 9+D6 should be doable I think. Your plan should really be to get up close and beat the crap out of people. Flying circus style doesn't work well with the Tetrad from what I've read/experienced - get the few psychic buffs you need and then punch someone's lights out in CC.

Edit: Maybe Iron Arm is WC2 but I never roll it anyway... But still, not too much you need to rely on in the psychic phase with the Tetrad.

someome tried tetrad against armies like gladius or mono drop marines? how it works? thanks, i m still undecided if play a straight demon list with fatey+Loc+belakor and knight or infernal tetrad so i m gathering infos.

 blackmage wrote:
someome tried tetrad against armies like gladius or mono drop marines? how it works? thanks, i m still undecided if play a straight demon list with fatey+Loc+belakor and knight or infernal tetrad so i m gathering infos.

I think the sheer number of units in a Gladius will make it hard for the Tetrad. You would need to roll quite a few more witchfires to try to pop more than a few units per Prince per turn, otherwise a smart opponent will just speedbump the Tetrad and win on objectives. The brightside is that the Primaris for Tzeencth, Slaanesh and Nurgle are already really good against Rhino/Razorback/MSU Marines spam.

and what about who play drop pods kind of gladius with many units with obj sec.? anyway steam of corruption do nothing against veichles he have str 0

 blackmage wrote:
and what about who play drop pods kind of gladius with many units with obj sec.? anyway steam of corruption do nothing against veichles he have str 0

but it murders marines. It's probably pretty good against pod lists as such; they all have to get out after they drop so they will just get eaten by the poison.

the problem is you must kill the razorback first they are not forced to disembark if i remember well to grab obj.

Again, it's good against drop pod lists, less so the Razorbacking lists. Those you need to punch, or possibly lash +flickering fire.

Against BC, you NEED shooting. Otherwise, you lose unless you're playing strictly Kill Point missions. You need ways to de-mech your opponents other than just assault. It is here where the shooty Slaanesh Prince and Fatey will help the army the most. Their jobs are to destroy as many vehicles as possible with shooting so that your other princes have targets for their assaults. It'll still be an uphill battle against Gladius Battle Company in objectives missions but at least it won't be an auto-lose battle.

Also, against armies like BC, you need bodies. This is where 1) Tallyband can be really useful and 2) Summoning will help you out a lot. While not ObSec, those extra bodies will be useful to eat Overwatch, help de-mech enemy vehicles (for Summoned units, not for Nurglings) and to tarpit enemy units so as to minimize their return fire against the Princes. Against those armies, you need either shooting or more bodies in order to have a fighting chance. Otherwise, it is almost an auto-lose in objectives-based missions against Battle Company.

Totally agree with jy2.

And Kairos is also a big BIG help against BC. At least 3 witchfires able to hurt tanks plus the ability to summon the flamer chariot (potential triple-tap lascan or mini-baleflamer anyone ?) is just invaluable.

I wish we could fit a Tallyband + Kairos + Tetrad :-(

I don't know at Adepticon I really liked Belakor. The auto invis and shrouding were awesome. Plus he can be a pretty decent combat monster himself. The little herald and horrors just hid and summoned. Plus that allowed me to ensure getting the d shot on the Prince as needed. A couple of times I was able to get sacrifice on the horrors which made Belakor even more effective. Nothing like having -1 leadership for terrify, dominate and shriek with the Nurgle herald ringing the bell.

 RabbitMaster wrote:
I wish we could fit a Tallyband + Kairos + Tetrad :-(

You can't with a tetrad, but you can if you just want to bring another greater daemon or a rotswarm. Honestly I'd be more scared of the Fateweaver + Tallybrand + Rotswarm build. Having 9 plague drones charging a unit after a dubious command would have 63 poisoned 3+ attacks, in addition to letting the herald get 6 attacks and whatever Hammer of Wrath hits are inflicted! Owch!

So here is a less competitive objective securing list, and a more "kill you with big scary stuff" list that might be fun.

Infernal Tetrad- The usual stuff here, I think we can all agree on what is good and hearty for this list. I tossed the Nurgle prince a lesser reward for kicks from left over points. Standard armor of scorn and impossible robes, everyone gets armor wings, double greater and whatnot.

Then instead of daemons, bring Vraks renegades with the Purge detachment. This is a 1HQ 2 elite detachment.

HQ: Command squad (manditory HQ for R&H, so bring it)
Elite: 3x units of 3 spawn. Renegades get units of 3 spawn for just under 60pt. Its a steal. This detachment allows a few extra elites and heavy.
Heavy: 4x3 Rapier laser destroyer arrays. These are 36" range twin linked ordnance lascannon artillery with. Each group is 3 shots with 6 crew, toss on militia training for BS/WS3. Ordnance lascannons are amazingly awesome. A unit of 3 of these clocks in at just under 80pt, they make wraithknights look overpriced. Though, I guess you will have 320pt of 12 twin linked T7 ordnance lascannons. Which would lay the hurt on any GCs and SHs you run into that get close enough, also pop transports.


Spawn are not exactly incursion nurglings. I would keep them handing in the back field to prevent anything from getting into CC with the artillery, as in CC they are T3 with no save.



On the subject of the rotswarm, I ran some tests when I got the book, because I was super excited about it. There isn't much in the game that will survive a charge from 9 plague drones outside of another death star or a GC/SH, and even then, the SH is most likely going to die. The boon from rotswarm is horrible and disgustingly awesome overkill, especially after fateweaver casts prescience on the unit.

The new Black Legion supplement coming out apparently has a formation that lets you take 3-5 Sorcerers, no other support units required. It's not a lot of extra bodies, but they don't have to be taken as a unit so can be spread out to prevent them all dying to a single attack. At ML 3 each that is 9-15 extra WC, which really opens up summoning to drop more bodies on the table as objective grabbers or tarpit units.

What are thoughts on this as a support formation for the Tetrad?

And then you force the Stormsurges to shoot at the rest of the army with the formation-specific psychic power

 gwarsh41 wrote:
On the subject of the rotswarm, I ran some tests when I got the book, because I was super excited about it. There isn't much in the game that will survive a charge from 9 plague drones outside of another death star or a GC/SH, and even then, the SH is most likely going to die. The boon from rotswarm is horrible and disgustingly awesome overkill, especially after fateweaver casts prescience on the unit.

I have been toying with the idea of a rotswarm holding 7 squads of 3 drones each, for 21 drones total. Not a single death star, but instead multiple threats. Do you think that would work?

Fhionnuisce wrote:
The new Black Legion supplement coming out apparently has a formation that lets you take 3-5 Sorcerers, no other support units required. It's not a lot of extra bodies, but they don't have to be taken as a unit so can be spread out to prevent them all dying to a single attack. At ML 3 each that is 9-15 extra WC, which really opens up summoning to drop more bodies on the table as objective grabbers or tarpit units.

What are thoughts on this as a support formation for the Tetrad?

The problem is that they cannot join any of the Daemon units. Thus they are stuck with each other or they are on their own, unless you want to pay for a CSM CAD just so that they have units to hide in. Actually, I suppose they could work with Renegades.....on second thought, nah.

If you want to go that route, just get 3-4 Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds instead. Cheaper and they can actually hide in Daemon units.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
On the subject of the rotswarm, I ran some tests when I got the book, because I was super excited about it. There isn't much in the game that will survive a charge from 9 plague drones outside of another death star or a GC/SH, and even then, the SH is most likely going to die. The boon from rotswarm is horrible and disgustingly awesome overkill, especially after fateweaver casts prescience on the unit.

I have been toying with the idea of a rotswarm holding 7 squads of 3 drones each, for 21 drones total. Not a single death star, but instead multiple threats. Do you think that would work?

It could, just not with the Infernal Tetrad unless you're playing at 2K+.

 jy2 wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
The new Black Legion supplement coming out apparently has a formation that lets you take 3-5 Sorcerers, no other support units required. It's not a lot of extra bodies, but they don't have to be taken as a unit so can be spread out to prevent them all dying to a single attack. At ML 3 each that is 9-15 extra WC, which really opens up summoning to drop more bodies on the table as objective grabbers or tarpit units.

What are thoughts on this as a support formation for the Tetrad?

The problem is that they cannot join any of the Daemon units. Thus they are stuck with each other or they are on their own, unless you want to pay for a CSM CAD just so that they have units to hide in. Actually, I suppose they could work with Renegades.....on second thought, nah.

If you want to go that route, just get 3-4 Lvl 3 Tzeentch Heralds instead. Cheaper and they can actually hide in Daemon units.

Darn. I thought for a moment I might have a reason to play with my CSM models but you are right, TzHeralds probably play better.

CSM Sorcerer formation + KDK Gorepack + Tetrad. Need I go on?

 Galef wrote:
CSM Sorcerer formation + KDK Gorepack + Tetrad. Need I go on?

Please, don't go on with more bad ideas. Haha....j.k.!

 jy2 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
CSM Sorcerer formation + KDK Gorepack + Tetrad. Need I go on?

Please, don't go on with more bad ideas. Haha....j.k.!

Lol. Just saying the Gorepack is what you could put the (unmarked) Sorcerers in. Maybe not great for the Tetrad, but I'm sure someone will try it soon enough.

 Galef wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
CSM Sorcerer formation + KDK Gorepack + Tetrad. Need I go on?

Please, don't go on with more bad ideas. Haha....j.k.!

Lol. Just saying the Gorepack is what you could put the (unmarked) Sorcerers in. Maybe not great for the Tetrad, but I'm sure someone will try it soon enough.

Have you tried fitting all that in an 1850 list? Standard Tetrad (about 1300-pts), 4 Lvl 3 sorcerers, 2 hounds and 2 bikers?