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AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Formation is reroll to hits, no? Not reroll 1's?

The Formation bonus for having 2+ Princes is re-rolling 1's to Hit, not all hits. Hence Etherblades and Greater Etherblades put that cherry on top with MC in case you roll a 2 to hit.

The reason most people just say "re-roll to hit" is due to the BS5, which 1's are the only miss, thus re-roll to hit

Oh okay, thank you. I was mistaken about that.

Nevermind, didn't see second page.

I can see the strength of the tallyband showing with the infernal tetrad. My opponent could have focused on my nurglings and messed up my objective grabbing pretty easily, but instead focused on my 4 super daemons, letting me take all the objectives I wanted.

 Galef wrote:
1) I had already rolled Incursion, so since he had lots of gaunts and rippers, plus 1 Horror unit already had Summoning, I kept Dark Flame.

2) All the targets I wanted the K prince to go after were other MC's, so I would not have gotten Rampage. I only chose the 'magic weapon' because I rolled the 3+ armour reward (lame). The +1 str Master Craft really added to the +1str, reroll 1s from the formation. I was str8 on the turns after I charged the Zoans, rerolling all 1's and one 2 from the Master Craft.

3) I never had the dice to cast Warpspeed, but I did cast Endurance a few times. twice on the K Prince, once on the S princess. I didn't put that in the bat-rep because it didn't really impact the game.

4) Yeah this was my mistake. In my list, I actually had a lesser reward, but I forgot to roll it. I have been playing Daemons for years, but have never had a list with SOOOO much random rolling. Usually 1 LOC and 2 horror unit is the most I run.

5) My plan was to do that, but I didn't get the powers I wanted from Biomancy, so I had to keep fishing. Plus I wasn't going to waste a Shreik on gaunts and the other units in his army were LD10. I have had really bad experiences with Shreik, usually never rolling higher than the targets LD.

6) I felt that the K & N Princes were enough. The Swooping MCs flew over them to be more priority targets. And yes, Nid shooting is gross. He had over 30 shots per Devilgaunt unit. I was also waiting for his Mawlocs to come in since they cannot hit Swopping MCs. If all his army was on the board, Yes I would have just Glided up.

--

Thanks for your thoughts. It was very insightful and helpful

Overall it was a ton of fun to play, but too much book keeping for my taste and too much potential to make a mistake by not swapping for the right stuff or casting the wrong power over another. I'd definitely play it again, but never in a Tournament.

I think gwarsh41's list (with the Tallyband) is closer to competitive because all the benefits of the Incursion, but I still don't see this as really top tier competitive. Eldar, Tau and Gladius Marines will still be an uphill battle. Infernal Tertad might be a good counter to a Necron Decurion due to their lack of anti-flyer stuff and the Tetrads possibilities for durability and ID weapons.

--

It's a good counter to warp spider spam, which wound DPs on a 6. Sure, every wound might be rending, but if you get shrouded on any of the princes, the damage output of the spiders drops to nearly 0. While they can hit and run out, the spiders will be torn to shreds before getting out.

The problem is dealing with the WK

 Galef wrote:
Overall it was a ton of fun to play, but too much book keeping for my taste and too much potential to make a mistake by not swapping for the right stuff or casting the wrong power over another. I'd definitely play it again, but never in a Tournament.

I think gwarsh41's list (with the Tallyband) is closer to competitive because all the benefits of the Incursion, but I still don't see this as really top tier competitive. Eldar, Tau and Gladius Marines will still be an uphill battle. Infernal Tertad might be a good counter to a Necron Decurion due to their lack of anti-flyer stuff and the Tetrads possibilities for durability and ID weapons.

--

As a Necron player, I don't care about AA.

When I feel like it, though, I bring Scythes, and that's potentially nasty. S10 means, if you have no EW, you just die.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Overall it was a ton of fun to play, but too much book keeping for my taste and too much potential to make a mistake by not swapping for the right stuff or casting the wrong power over another. I'd definitely play it again, but never in a Tournament.

I think gwarsh41's list (with the Tallyband) is closer to competitive because all the benefits of the Incursion, but I still don't see this as really top tier competitive. Eldar, Tau and Gladius Marines will still be an uphill battle. Infernal Tertad might be a good counter to a Necron Decurion due to their lack of anti-flyer stuff and the Tetrads possibilities for durability and ID weapons.

--

As a Necron player, I don't care about AA.

When I feel like it, though, I bring Scythes, and that's potentially nasty. S10 means, if you have no EW, you just die.

My point is that no one brings Scythes in a competitive Decurion, so the Tetrad doesn't really have to worry about that. Also Tetrads bonus makes all the Princes T6, so no ID for you! (unless you kill 1 Prince, then they revert back to T5)

Another point I was trying to get across is that the Necrons strength is not in their damage output (which is decent, but not outstanding), but rather their durability. The Tetrad is durable enough to whether Necron shooting & CC and powerfull enough to get through the RPs. I good Necron player (who also know a lot about Daemons) can tactically win over the Tetrad, but the majority of Necron players may not be as familiar with which Princes to target first. The Nid player I played was a good player, but had very little experience against Daemons. In fact, I think our game may have been his 2nd or 3rd time ever playing against Daemons.

If the "big 4" are Necrons, Tau, Eldar and Marines, the Tetrad is only a counter to Necrons, thus making them not a top-tier list. But still fun as heck.

Yeah, fighting gladius would still be pretty rough. Eldar would also be a pain, as the wraithknights could still 1/6 chance remove a DP from play. Bikes could remove my nurglings from play and take objectives easier than I could.

I played an eldar player last week with my Tetrad list and found some interesting things out.

Vector striking 3 man squads of scat bikes is hilarious. During my game he had three squads of dragons in falcons and warp spiders on foot, so I kept my princes swooping until he arrived with all his deep striking units.

I spent the first two turns vector striking scat bike squads in the movement phase and summoning screamers and psychic shrieking the bikes.

I also learned that, as I mentioned earlier, that warp spiders are nearly useless vs daemon princes. Sure, they are hitting on a 2+ if you are not swooping, but they are wounding on a 6, and if you have shrouded you are getting a 2+ cover save. These are the chances of your prince actually taking a wound
(5/6 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * (1/6 failed save) = 5/216 or 2.3% to wound. If you rolled the FNP 4+ gift, that is cut in half!
My Khorne prince assaulted a squad of 8 of them, killing most of them (including ID'ing the exarch) and the swept the rest.

The biggest worry that eldar can do is the WK. To tackle this you either need to feed it units every round, or hit it with every prince hoping you can take it down. The mathhammer shows that if all 4 princes hit it and you have the right gear/gifts its very doable to down the WK before it can swing.

-----------

Tau on the other hand are a show stopper. Double stormsurge is an auto-lose for this list, as you just can't bring what you need to handle the stormsurges. They are to damn durable and will stomp your princes to death.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
All of these supplements - Escalation, Death From the Skies, Stronghold Assault - are legal in regular 40K unless the tourney FAQ expressly forbids them. They are definitely legal in the ITC system unless explicilty forbidden by the ITC. The ITC was even doing the +1VP/3HP or Wounds that you take off from a SH/GC from the Escalation supplement (this was before the most recent ITC changes).

Yeah but the Escalation FAQ makes it clear that the rules in it are only used when playing escalation missions (not just in regular 40k) so ITC is specifically adding +1VP/3HP to their tournament packet and because it wouldn't be in place otherwise.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
In the Escalation supplement. What it says basically is if your opponent takes a Super-heavy/Gargant, then you can opt to roll on the Escalation WL table as well.

2 of my opponents at the LVO actually did that when playing against my Chaos Knight and actually got that (though one of my opponents did so illegaly but we didn't know it at the time).

Well, they were mistaken, or your tournament was using house rules.

The FAQ/Errata clearly establishes when those Warlord traits are allowed.

"Furthermore, if you are playing an Altar of War: Escalation
or Gauntlet Challenge mission and your opponent has
a Lords of War unit as part of their army, your Warlord
can choose to roll on the Escalation Warlord Traits
table shown right instead of one of the Warlord Traits
normally available to your Warlord.’"

I'm not sure if you guys are aware (I'm guessing probably not), but there is a discrepancy in the Escalation books.

Early in the rules (under Lords of War in 40K), they mention the Escalation rules that apply to all LoW units. These include:

1. Warlord Traits - you can roll on the Escalation traits if your opponent brings a LoW SH/GC and you do not.

2. Impending Doom - you get +1 to Seize if your opponent brings a SH/GC.

3. Through Attrition, Victory. (The ITC has since modified this in their scenarios but the other 2 above remains the same).

Then there are the optional Escalation scenarios later in the book, the Altar of War: Escalation and the Gauntlet Mission Challenges. In these Escalation campaign scenarios, it only makes mention of 2 things:

2. Impending Doom - you get +1 to Seize if your opponent brings a SH/GC.

3. Through Attrition, Victory. (The ITC has since modified this in their scenarios but the other 2 above remains the same).

What they left out was the ability to pick a Escalation Warlord trait if your opponent brought a SH/GC and you didn't.

The FAQ was to clarify precisely those specific campaign missions, not the Entire Escalation book.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
If you are playing against a Knight army, consider rolling on the Escalation Warlord Traits table. There is one result that reduces a 6 on the D and Stomp table to a 5 (or something like that). However, if it is is just a single GMC/SH (like a WK), I'd just go with the Daemon Warlord Traits.

That is something to consider. It means losing one of the best perks of the formation, as the shared warlord trait is pretty awesome. In my last two games I had +1 spell levels to each prince, which made for fun when the khorne prince was casting 'boom of flame'

Oddly enough, I think that the princes, properly buffed will likely do better against knights. I need to run the numbers on this, but in most of my games at least one prince, sometimes two got fleshbane/armorbane. What makes the GC's so tough are the high number of wounds, invuln saves and FNP.

You still get the shared Warlord traits even if you don't roll on the Daemon Warlord Traits tables.

However, like I said, it isn't worth it unless you are playing against a Knight army with multiple SH's/GC's. The Daemon WL Tables are just too good.

The FAQ replaced those paragraphs though

 CrownAxe wrote:
The FAQ replaced those paragraphs though

The name of the supplement is Escalation. It is not Altar of War: Escalation.

The FAQ specifically addresses the Altar of War: Escalation missions within the Escalation book itself. It is a 2-part FAQ. The first part addresses the factions of the LoW units for the Escalation book. The 2nd part addresses 2 specific optional missions within the book.

I have no idea where you are getting that from

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Escalation_EN.pdf

This is the FAQ for Escalation (not Altar of War: Escalation) It says to replace the first 3 paragraph on page 34 with the new text. That removed your original permission to just use the escalation warlord table. It then added a new permission that if you are using alter of war missions that you can use the escalation warlord table.

I see now. Thanks for the correction.

To the OP and thread:

Please disregard my advice on using the Escalation Warlord Traits for the Daemon Princes. It is not a legal tactic. Thanks.

 jy2 wrote:
I see now. Thanks for the correction.

To the OP and thread:

Please disregard my advice on using the Escalation Warlord Traits for the Daemon Princes. It is not a legal tactic. Thanks.

Holy crap.
Someone online actually admitted a mistake, and was polite and respectful in the correction?

My hat goes off to you sir! If everyone has that much class the internet would be a better place!

Clearly you never met jy2 in person

I briefly bumped into him the night before NovaOpen2015 started and he was truly genuine man. His work on Dakka is legitimate and I'd love to play him one day on the table. I'm hoping this year at NovaOpen I'll get a chance. That is - if he's going

Thanks guys. Better to be flexible than stubborn, especially when giving out advice online. I wouldn't want to perpetuate bad/wrong advice/tactics to others and so I will freely admit when I am wrong.

@Saythings

Sorry, but I currently don't have plans to go to Nova this year. We'll see if that changes later though.

In Jy2's defense, under ITC missions you are allowed to roll on the escalation table. Regardless of actual GW rules.

Look at step 6
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByVzaY23LOX-OVBMZUNCN19OX1E/view

Lol. I didn't think to look in the Mission pack themselves.

Yeah, 3 people used it against me in ITC tournaments. I knew it must've been legal in ITC somehow.

Thanks, Vercingatorix.

Hey guys, I've been thinking about the following: Do the Slaanesh & Nurgle Princes need the Warp Forged armour?

The Khorne & Tzeentch Princes will have Armour of Scorn & Impossibility Robes respectivetly, the Slaanesh Prince will be rolling Biomancy for Iron Arm, Nurgle has Shrouded, you might get 3+ armour or 4+FNP from Greater rewards, +1 invul from the Tz WL trait OR Cursed Earth.

It seems like dropping the Armour from both Princes might be a good option to save 40 points. Thnoughts?

I've been rolling with the warp forged armor for the following reasons.
1) When you get stuck in assault, the shrouded does not apply. I've been forced to make many 3+ saves in my Tetrad games thus far.
2) When I roll the 3+ save off a greater reward, that is usually the one I've been swapping for a weapon. Last time I rolled it with my tzeentch prince I gave him both a greater etherblade and the staff of change for +1 attack.

If I was trying to cut 40 points, I would drop the armor from those princes. I'm doing a 1250 doubles tourney this weekend and that was where I had to cut points, actually. After this weekend I'll let you know how they fared without the armor.

Is anyone running the Tetrad with less than wings and 1 lesser+2 greater all around, ML3 all around sans Khorne, and Impossible Robes and Armor of Scorn w/ warp forged on the other 2?

 Roadhouse wrote:
Is anyone running the Tetrad with less than wings and 1 lesser+2 greater all around, ML3 all around sans Khorne, and Impossible Robes and Armor of Scorn w/ warp forged on the other 2?

All the princes don't need a lesser. Only the Khorne and Tzeentch ones.
Otherwise, yes -- that seems to be the best loadout.

I've tried both corruption, soulstealer and silvershard and found those points are better spent elsewhere.

I also tried one game without any rewards, and they fell fast. Getting rewards like 4+ FNP go VERY far in keeping the princes alive.

I ran mine without greater rewards and only mastery level 1 for each. I did use the impossible robes and a couple other relics though. Even without all the greater rewards I was able to keep my princes alive pretty well anyways. The only armies that wiped them out were a tallyband with all those poison and instant death attacks and a war convocation.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've been rolling with the warp forged armor for the following reasons.
1) When you get stuck in assault, the shrouded does not apply. I've been forced to make many 3+ saves in my Tetrad games thus far.
2) When I roll the 3+ save off a greater reward, that is usually the one I've been swapping for a weapon. Last time I rolled it with my tzeentch prince I gave him both a greater etherblade and the staff of change for +1 attack.

If I was trying to cut 40 points, I would drop the armor from those princes. I'm doing a 1250 doubles tourney this weekend and that was where I had to cut points, actually. After this weekend I'll let you know how they fared without the armor.

Very good points as usual, especially since the SP wants the Lash and the NP wants the Balwsword.
Not buying the Amour, then rolling it to have to chose is probably worse than buying the Armour, rolling it and having an easy choice

I have been rolling with out the armor on the Slaanesh and Nurgle ones. There is a crap ton of grav here. Plus usually with those two I am selling out on biomancy. T ten is pretty hard to wound or hopefully I will have endurance for a FNP save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am taking mine to Adepticon Thursday and will let you know how it goes....

I ran a 1250 point Tetrad in a doubles tourney yesterday, and with my friend's Eldar we scored first place. Here is a brief summary of our games.

Game One
It was against khorne daemonkin and Tau. The khorne player threw 20 khorne dogs plus a herald into the nurgle and slaanesh prince, then summoned 5 more into the fray. The slaanesh prince killed the herald before anyone swung a blow, and after 5 round of combat, the slaanesh prince was killed and the nurgle prince, iron arm'ed the entire time, finally managed to splat the last dog.

The khorne prince did some work, killing a squad of CSM, then a squad of fire warriors. The Tzeench prince killed a squad of 8 khorne dogs. The tau player then dropped his farsight bomb next to my princes, throwing 20 plasma shots into the khorne princes who took a wound, then poured the other 11 or so into the tzeentch prince who laughed it off. Both princes then assaulted the farsight bomb and killed every single model.

They conceded at that point.

Game Two
This game was against Tau and Marines. They got first turn and with all their tau's army's firepower were able to put 3 wounds onto the Slaanesh prince. The Slaanesh Prince went into swoop mode on the next turn and was then shot down by a stormtalon. I should have put shrounding on him.

My Nurgle prince, again with Iron Arm up, assaulted 3 assault centurians and a chapter master with a thunder hammer and shield of eternal. The nurgle prince slammed the chapter master into fine red paste, and the centurians were not able to score any wounds on it. The prince then doubled out all 3 centurians in the tau player's turn. The Nurgle prince consolidated forward, moved up and assaulted a riptide, causing it to fail LD with 1 wound and swept it. The prince did the same to another riptide on the next turn, and on the final turn, assauled the last riptide fleeing for it's life but did not manage to sweep it before the game was over. Once Nurgle prince did a LOT of work that game.

The Tzeentch and Khorne prince did a little work. The Tzeentch prince assaulted a rhino and then killed the 5 marines inside. During this time the Khorne prince assaulted the stormsurge with the Axe of Khorne. During this entire time I had been psychic shrieking the stormsurge and managed to do 2 wounds to it. The Khorne prince assaulted it and got 2 IDs on the Stormsurge, knocking the damn thing down to 2 wounds left. The stormsurge then stomped the Khorne prince to death.

The Tzeentch prince, seeing that the stormsurge had 2 wounds left assaulted the Khorne prince. The prince managed to do 1 more wound, and the f'ing stormsurge stompted the 2++ rerollable prince with FNP 4+ out of existing. Have I mentioned how much I hate stomp?

While the nurgle prince was working it's way to that 3rd riptide, it threw a psychic shriek on the stormsurge killing it. Yes, that one prince killed a chapter master, 3 assault centurians, 2 riptides, the killing blow on a stormsurge, and would have killed a 3rd riptide.

Game Three
This game was against dual Eldar with a wraithknight, a wraithstar led by a wraithlord with a D shot gun, two falcons with some firedragons, a tank that shot D3 D barrage shots, and finally about 40+ scat bikes. This is as rough of a list as they come.

I deployed the princes far back near my deployment zone in ruins. This limited him to 10 scat bikes that could shoot at my princes, and he did 2 wounds to the slaanesh prince. He moved his D tank up and blasted our wraithknight for 3 wounds, and missed with this wraithblade squad's D shot.

I swept my 4 princes forward, not wanting to be on the ground until some of those scat bikes were cleared out. The khorne prince then did something completely amazing. He was a level 1 psyker due to the warlord trait, and he got prismatic gaze. I threw 7 dice at it and got it off with 5 which also caused a perils. He shot the tank and destroyed it with his D shot. He then fell out of the sky and landed hard, but saved the wound. Since he was now grounded, he assaulted the wraithstar killing the wraithlord and every single wraithblade. Roaring in victory, he then ate 20 scatter bikes worth of firepower, doing the last 3 wounds killing him. Sure, he was banished back to the warp, but he more than 'earned his points back' in that game!

My other 3 princes were each throwing out psychic shriek's and other various powers. On turn 4 I went into gliding mode, when there were about 20 scat bikes left. The game was going to end on turn 5, and we went last, so our opponents were trying to grab the objectives and keep us from contesting or killing them. They managed to kill the slaanesh prince with firepower from their entire army.

On the end of turn 5, the nurgle prince killed a falcon contesting an objective it was on, and the Tzeentch prince flew over and shrieked one bike squad off an objective then assaulted his warlord bike squad. The warlord refused a challenge, so I killed 4 bikes around it, swept the warlord and the last bike. We won that game 11 to 3.

During this entire time, my eldar partner was working hard to kill the wraithknight and scat bikes. It was a joint effort in all the games. I just highlighted the key areas where the princes were effective.

Final Thoughts
Stormsurges should not be able to stomp princes. That is stupid as crap.
I should have just kept shrounding up and glided the princes starting on turn 2 in the final game.
Princes are highly random in effectiveness depending on rewards.
Make sure you avoid tarpit units like 20 khorne hounds.

Nurgle Princes cannot sweep, they are slow and purposeful. Just for future note.

You also would have had to wait a turn to charge when you grounded yourself, I'm fairly certain.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Nurgle Princes cannot sweep, they are slow and purposeful. Just for future note.

You also would have had to wait a turn to charge when you grounded yourself, I'm fairly certain.

Thanks for the heads on SnP. As the riptides were on the board edge they would have just ran off the board

In regards to the assault after grounding we asked the TO and that's how he ruled it. I do not advise perils on purpose as a standard tactic