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Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

tneva82 wrote:
Or when did Fenris's bombing get mentioned before?




When did the Centurions get mentioned before? Or the new Marine flyer?

You're confusing "retcon" with "advancement".

   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




Seems several of you arent even playing. Stay in warmachine then.
If they "streamline" the game to aos most people will just quit, why play 40k when you might aswell just play warmachine/hordes/infinity that doesnt have 50 books already out with special rules anyway. If they make 8th ed in AoS style they will have to REMAKE ALL THE CODEXs or give out all the new unit info for free like aos, it will not happen.
The only way to simplify 40k enough for you guys is to burn it down since every codex has it's own rules and they cant rerelease everything at the same time.
Everyone doesnt play with 20 books and supplements, it's only you guys that think you need raukaan, fenris, ia3 and 3 different sm codexes to play a "friendly" game.

One codex and the rule book is actually enough, they just need to show this to people, which they do in their stores. The complexity is what drew me in to 40k and not star wars, if i wanted to play tic tac toe i would...
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




40K absolutely has rules bloat, it's a fact of such a long lasting game. But that on it's own isn't such a horrible problem, if the rules were easily available in front of you while playing. The bigger issue is the rules structure problem that 40K has. Taking some examples to have the rules in front of you when playing, outside of the core mechanics of move/shoot/fight etc:

A unit in Warmachine:
The units card
The reference for stealth/immunities etc

Guildball:
The models card

X-Wing:
The models card
Any upgrade cards

40K unit:
It's Datasheet
For older Codex's, the Bestiary equivalent
Weapon rules from the Rulebook
Weapon rules from the Codex
Rulebook USR's
Codex Special Rules
Formation Special rules (which in turn may need more USR's etc)

Structurally that is just terrible, and takes a "what does this unit do?" 30 second question into 10 minutes of flicking through either 2 or 3 books. And that's for 1 unit. For an army it could easily be 25 locations across 5 books. Rather than a few cards right in front of you.

Sure as you become more experienced you remember more, but for new players it's a big blocker to getting into the game.

GW's problem is the only way to restructure the rules is a complete reboot, which I'm unsure they'll dare to do with their flagship product.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

Backfire wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Lockark wrote:
The one thing I liked about age of sigmar is how all the core rules fit on two pages. Their great in that respect. But no force org and no points just made the whole game fall apart. When ever I see people try to play a pick up game of it, then spend more time trying to make two balanced forces then they do playing the game.

Getting two Warhammer players to argue about balance before every game was a terrible idea.


Then again if you move most of the rules to unit entries you would get 40k rulebook thinned down quite a bit...

Which then results in either crapload of unique rules for units or multiplying same rule into multiple places(which could lead to case of smoke launchers working differently for dark angels because...reasons.)


Exactly. People whine about long list of USR's, and sure there are one or two which are largely superfluous and/or annoying (Soul Blaze...), however they forget that in the past, there were actually much more special rules in the game as many units, characters and wargear had their own, unique rules. Nowadays they have been reduced a great deal in exchange of larger list of corebook special rules.

I am quite happy with the state of 40k core rules, with maybe Vehicle damage being the one which most needs the update. It is the codex design which is out of whack, with all the formations insanity and ever-more powerful psykers and Psychic powers.


Except the unit specific rules were in the codex. I did not have to flip over to the BRB to find out what a rule did.
It was a lot more efficient back then, as you just had to read the codex and the core rules were fairly easy to remember. Now you have to refer to both the codex and the brb to keep track of all the different special rules.
Like, before I knew what Gloom Prism and Phylactery do, as they were explained in the book. Now they give Adamantium Will and It Will Not Die
Ok, what do those do? I now have to open the BRB, and verify what those do. Its just not efficient.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/17 11:26:54


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MaxT wrote:
40K absolutely has rules bloat, it's a fact of such a long lasting game. But that on it's own isn't such a horrible problem, if the rules were easily available in front of you while playing. The bigger issue is the rules structure problem that 40K has. Taking some examples to have the rules in front of you when playing, outside of the core mechanics of move/shoot/fight etc:

A unit in Warmachine:
The units card
The reference for stealth/immunities etc

Guildball:
The models card

X-Wing:
The models card
Any upgrade cards

40K unit:
It's Datasheet
For older Codex's, the Bestiary equivalent
Weapon rules from the Rulebook
Weapon rules from the Codex
Rulebook USR's
Codex Special Rules
Formation Special rules (which in turn may need more USR's etc)

Structurally that is just terrible, and takes a "what does this unit do?" 30 second question into 10 minutes of flicking through either 2 or 3 books. And that's for 1 unit. For an army it could easily be 25 locations across 5 books. Rather than a few cards right in front of you.

Sure as you become more experienced you remember more, but for new players it's a big blocker to getting into the game.

GW's problem is the only way to restructure the rules is a complete reboot, which I'm unsure they'll dare to do with their flagship product.


I don't see how all those problems couldn't be solved by consolidating the information into more concise rule books and codices. There is bloat I agree, but as others have said, it's the complexity that appeals to a lot of people. I like the fact that X unit can synergies with Y unit because of how their special rules interact. I like the fact that formations and detachments give certain bonuses for building fluffy lists. I like the fact that every army doesn't have to conform to one standard method of list building (CAD).

You're right in the fact that all of this can be very daunting, and expensive. But those aren't problems that can't be solved without throwing the baby out with the bath water. There's so much hyperbole on this site about how 40k is irrevocably broken, and how it needs to be rebooted because it's unplayable. It clearly IS playable because there's thousands of people buying models and playing the game, supporting hundreds of stores across the globe. If it was as awful as some people make out, why is it so many people still enjoy it?

There are issues, but for me they are down to poor planning regarding GWs release schedule, and a lack of concise rules writing. the fact that many races are still working off codices from a previous version of the game is clearly something that's making the game unbalanced and difficult to pick up. They need to recognise this, they also need to recognise that spreading rules over four or five books doesn't help player engagement.


 
   
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A big problem is not just the proliferation of special rules but the growth in units that have them.

The basic marine weapon is S4 AP5, rapid fire 24". No special rules, just 3 or 4 stats to remember. The basic marine has a stat line and Know No Fear.

But now add Chapter Tactics and Formation bonuses, and Warlord bonuses and you have a lot more to remember, forget or misremember.

And newer codexes pile on the special snowflake rules. Adeptus Mech guns cause 2 wounds on a roll of a 6! Because of reasons!

If I were in charge I'd lose half the special rules in the big book and units would lose half of their special rules.

 
   
Made in gb
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-

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Backfire wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Lockark wrote:
The one thing I liked about age of sigmar is how all the core rules fit on two pages. Their great in that respect. But no force org and no points just made the whole game fall apart. When ever I see people try to play a pick up game of it, then spend more time trying to make two balanced forces then they do playing the game.

Getting two Warhammer players to argue about balance before every game was a terrible idea.


Then again if you move most of the rules to unit entries you would get 40k rulebook thinned down quite a bit...

Which then results in either crapload of unique rules for units or multiplying same rule into multiple places(which could lead to case of smoke launchers working differently for dark angels because...reasons.)


Exactly. People whine about long list of USR's, and sure there are one or two which are largely superfluous and/or annoying (Soul Blaze...), however they forget that in the past, there were actually much more special rules in the game as many units, characters and wargear had their own, unique rules. Nowadays they have been reduced a great deal in exchange of larger list of corebook special rules.

I am quite happy with the state of 40k core rules, with maybe Vehicle damage being the one which most needs the update. It is the codex design which is out of whack, with all the formations insanity and ever-more powerful psykers and Psychic powers.


There were a lot more special rules in 1st and 2nd edition. Then it was all rationalised for 3rd edition. 4th and 5th editions developed and expanded on 3rd, partly through optional supplements. Then in 6th/7th the structure became more like 1st/2d again, lots more special rules, lots more psychic, lots more options coded into the core game.

The thing is, 3rd/4th/5th were the most popular and successful editions, judged by sales value. Things have fallen off during 6th/7th.

I think the problem is partly the codexes like you say, and also just the sheer expense of rulebooks.


True, 2nd edition wasn't straightforward by any stretch of the imagination, but people forget the number of models needed for a game was miniscule compared to what it is nowadays.

And another point, we're all familiar with the Rick Priestly interview where he talked about the danger of the creative studio being a marketing wing for sales. With GW, the models have always driven the rules, rather than the rules driving the models.

A classic example is the Knight Titan. Lovely model, but being the model it was, it had to get super-duper shiny wonderful rules, regardless of the effect it had on everything else.

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Right behind you.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A big problem is not just the proliferation of special rules but the growth in units that have them.

The basic marine weapon is S4 AP5, rapid fire 24". No special rules, just 3 or 4 stats to remember. The basic marine has a stat line and Know No Fear.

But now add Chapter Tactics and Formation bonuses, and Warlord bonuses and you have a lot more to remember, forget or misremember.

And newer codexes pile on the special snowflake rules. Adeptus Mech guns cause 2 wounds on a roll of a 6! Because of reasons!

If I were in charge I'd lose half the special rules in the big book and units would lose half of their special rules.

Good thing you're not in charge then.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A big problem is not just the proliferation of special rules but the growth in units that have them.

The basic marine weapon is S4 AP5, rapid fire 24". No special rules, just 3 or 4 stats to remember. The basic marine has a stat line and Know No Fear.

But now add Chapter Tactics and Formation bonuses, and Warlord bonuses and you have a lot more to remember, forget or misremember.

And newer codexes pile on the special snowflake rules. Adeptus Mech guns cause 2 wounds on a roll of a 6! Because of reasons!

If I were in charge I'd lose half the special rules in the big book and units would lose half of their special rules.

Good thing you're not in charge then.

An excess in snowflake special rules when aiming to portray things that can actually be portrayed with numerical changes to a mere statsline is one of the most glaring examples of incompetent and/or lazy rules design. This is known to basically everyone who is not:

a) A Games Workshop rules designer.
b) A lobotomized Games Workshop die-hard fan.

Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get. 
   
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TN/AL/MS state line.

Yonasu wrote:
Seems several of you arent even playing. Stay in warmachine then.
If they "streamline" the game to aos most people will just quit, why play 40k when you might aswell just play warmachine/hordes/infinity that doesnt have 50 books already out with special rules anyway. If they make 8th ed in AoS style they will have to REMAKE ALL THE CODEXs or give out all the new unit info for free like aos, it will not happen.
The only way to simplify 40k enough for you guys is to burn it down since every codex has it's own rules and they cant rerelease everything at the same time.
Everyone doesnt play with 20 books and supplements, it's only you guys that think you need raukaan, fenris, ia3 and 3 different sm codexes to play a "friendly" game.

One codex and the rule book is actually enough, they just need to show this to people, which they do in their stores. The complexity is what drew me in to 40k and not star wars, if i wanted to play tic tac toe i would...

You obviously weren't around for a big edition change. 5th invalidated all of the 4th edition codexes , 6th invalidated all of the 5th edition codexes, and some sat for a few years before being updated to the new rules.

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It is my hope that 40k becomes more like AOS. A handful of pages of rules, keep the special rules on the unit cards themselves, have at it.

I understand some people require a ton of complex rules for them to feel a game is good, but I lost that desire years and years ago.

I would love a game where I didn't have to have my nose in a rulebook 1/3 of the game to make sure everything was done right.

Almost a year of AOS and I've yet to have a rules argument.

40k there is one or two every game.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
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There are way too many special rules. I always forgot that I have to enact Doctrine when playing SM. Every time im shooting or assault I have to stick my nose to the codex how many attacks and what the str and etc is. annoying.
   
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Right behind you.

 DalinCriid wrote:
There are way too many special rules. I always forgot that I have to enact Doctrine when playing SM. Every time im shooting or assault I have to stick my nose to the codex how many attacks and what the str and etc is. annoying.

Unless you're playing Ultramarines, a Battle Demi-Company, or a Gladius--you don't have to enact Doctrines.

Because of the way they worded Doctrines there is no other way to use them.
   
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Yonasu wrote:
Seems several of you arent even playing. Stay in warmachine then. .


HA! Yes, because everyone who doesn't play 40K must be a dirty warmachine player.

40K needs to be AoS'ed, then built up again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/17 13:05:41


 
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

"Streamlining" 40K sounds easy enough, but if it actually happened, the nerdrage would break the interwebz and we'd realize that there's a great difference of opinion regarding *WHAT* needs to be changed and/or streamlined.

Besides, Sad Panda stated that nothing's coming this year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sinful Hero wrote:
You obviously weren't around for a big edition change. 5th invalidated all of the 4th edition codexes , 6th invalidated all of the 5th edition codexes, and some sat for a few years before being updated to the new rules.


That isn't true at all. The last time codicies were invalidated was in the change from 2nd to 3rd. They received errata in the changes you mention, but were still used for play.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/17 13:08:44


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 Kanluwen wrote:
 DalinCriid wrote:
There are way too many special rules. I always forgot that I have to enact Doctrine when playing SM. Every time im shooting or assault I have to stick my nose to the codex how many attacks and what the str and etc is. annoying.

Unless you're playing Ultramarines, a Battle Demi-Company, or a Gladius--you don't have to enact Doctrines.

Because of the way they worded Doctrines there is no other way to use them.

It's still anoying thou. Im into this hobby for about one year now and I still don't know how to use doctrines if I am not Ultramarines. My guess is that if I am some other chapter and I use a Battle-Demi I have access to one Doctrine total for the whole game.
   
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 Sinful Hero wrote:
Yonasu wrote:
Seems several of you arent even playing. Stay in warmachine then.
If they "streamline" the game to aos most people will just quit, why play 40k when you might aswell just play warmachine/hordes/infinity that doesnt have 50 books already out with special rules anyway. If they make 8th ed in AoS style they will have to REMAKE ALL THE CODEXs or give out all the new unit info for free like aos, it will not happen.
The only way to simplify 40k enough for you guys is to burn it down since every codex has it's own rules and they cant rerelease everything at the same time.
Everyone doesnt play with 20 books and supplements, it's only you guys that think you need raukaan, fenris, ia3 and 3 different sm codexes to play a "friendly" game.

One codex and the rule book is actually enough, they just need to show this to people, which they do in their stores. The complexity is what drew me in to 40k and not star wars, if i wanted to play tic tac toe i would...

You obviously weren't around for a big edition change. 5th invalidated all of the 4th edition codexes , 6th invalidated all of the 5th edition codexes, and some sat for a few years before being updated to the new rules.


5th and 6th didn't invalidate any armies codex to my knowledge, a few supplements it did admittedly, but Yonasu is wrong in the sense that they did exactly that in 3rd edition.

They revised the full rules set and put stand in lists for all armies in the back of the BRB.
   
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-

I've made no secret of my opposition to GW, but it's clear, even to me, that a corner has been turned by the new management that has taken over.

Now, given that GW are happy to give licenses to video games company, and given the number of companies that make good rulesets for rival games, perhaps this new management might pay somebody to write the rules for them?

By all accounts, they took feedback from independents for a points system for AOS, perhaps GW will adopt a common sense approach for this new edition of 40k...

But then again, that idea's been mooted on this site for years.

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 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Yonasu wrote:
Seems several of you arent even playing. Stay in warmachine then. .


HA! Yes, because everyone who doesn't play 40K must be a dirty warmachine player.

40K needs to be AoS'ed, then built up again.


They just need to scrap all the codices and re-do them all at once with proper balance, after fixing the inconsistencies in the main ruleset (glaring as they sometimes are).

No need to go the AoS route.

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 gorgon wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
You obviously weren't around for a big edition change. 5th invalidated all of the 4th edition codexes , 6th invalidated all of the 5th edition codexes, and some sat for a few years before being updated to the new rules.


That isn't true at all. The last time codicies were invalidated was in the change from 2nd to 3rd. They received errata in the changes you mention, but were still used for play.

They were still used, but they were immediately outdated. For example Tyranid Ravenors had Acute Senses in fourth, but in fifth had no way to outflank so it was a useless rule for them until the updated codex. Or the Carnifex upgrade that doubled its model count for assault- it had zero analogue in 5th. Could also point out that you could no longer two of the same ranged weapon or biocannon on the same model, so suddenly entIre load outs were left by the wayside. They could function(move, shoot, run), but they were not functioning correctly.

I suppose I chose poor wording when I said, "invalidated".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/17 13:18:41


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Can... can we just close this thread for now? Or at least move it to general. All of this is just pointless bickering based on shakey and unconfirmed rumours that tell us very little to begin with.
   
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 nudibranch wrote:
Can... can we just close this thread for now? Or at least move it to general. All of this is just pointless bickering based on shakey and unconfirmed rumours that tell us very little to begin with.

If I can't start my morning reading pointless bickering and shakey, unconfirmed rumors, my day is ruined.
   
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Omadon's Realm

 Kanluwen wrote:
Points don't matter. They really, really, really don't. All the garbage players are the ones who whined and whined about "No points means it's going to be anarchy!"


As someone who's been playing warhammer since 3rd edition and 40k since it existed, this 'garbage player' not only complained at the lack of points, I saw the anarchy and inability to play pick up games and effective tournaments with my own eyes. Points systems have worked for 30 bloody years, they've been worked on and refined for that long. Your blanket insult and sweeping statements really do not endear you to many people, Kan, and you've been at this a wee while now, one might have assumed you'd have mastered at least the rudiments of polite discourse, to somehow mask your dreary obsession with dwelling in a world of black and white 'I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong' skewed logic you persist in ramrodding into every bloody thread you participate in.



As for the thread subject, I would strongly suggest that the mistakes of AoS (and boy were there...) have been studied and that when 40k is stripped down (as I feel it must be), the shift will be far less draconian and absolute.

The bloat and churn must be stripped away to make a playable game, the genies of LoW, D weaponry etc must be placed back into bottles with 'by mutual consent' clearly labelled on them and the endless removal of gameplay and replacement with 'random chart horrifically affecting entire game' must be taken into the back yard and a bullet put through it's skull. The game should be, I feel, tailored towards pick up and tourney, with the options to add in other things with mutual consent.

Points, which aren't perfect, do at least steer people towards a sense of balance for gaming with strangers, without scenarios.






 
   
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Could RazorEdge or a mod add the following to the first post, please

Sad Panda wrote:

New edition won't arrive in 2016.

But they will (and kinda already do) move the story forward.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/691067/8660241.page

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thanks, RazorEdge



This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/05/17 13:47:49


 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
Good thing you're not in charge then.


Nah. He's right. You want to have as little rules bloat as possible and always use your core central special rules rather than continuously inventing new ones.

You create as many base-line rules as you can, and you avoid modifying/adding to them at all costs.

   
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Okay, so one of the most (if not the most) reliably rumormongers has already said this won't be a new edition. Why are people still talking about it as if it is?

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scrap formations, end the power creep, update older codex's before updating/making models to core army's that are already up to date.
new rules for specialty games (happening)
bring back kill team, necromunda and the mordhiem or whatever it was called.

that's my wish list. but change the BRG to give balance to the units and easier to understand. a rule book that doesn't need a FAQ, wouldn't that be ideal?
   
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Folks, as Rick Pitino might say, 5th edition isn't walking through that door.

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Right behind you.

griffomate wrote:
scrap formations, end the power creep, update older codex's before updating/making models to core army's that are already up to date.
new rules for specialty games (happening)
bring back kill team, necromunda and the mordhiem or whatever it was called.

that's my wish list. but change the BRG to give balance to the units and easier to understand. a rule book that doesn't need a FAQ, wouldn't that be ideal?

Formations aren't going anywhere--and they shouldn't. Formations are far more user friendly than CADs.
   
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There is a new edition of 40K in the works.

It's also correct that GW doesn't bother re-doing old Codex books, basically since Tau, as they consider 7th a lame duck rule set (there will still be rules for new miniatures, incl. campaigns, Codex Deathwatch, etc..).

Just that the timeline is off and the new edition further away ... at least 2017 ... according to my information (which has been good so far, but a new edition of 40K is the most secretive topic you could find in GW).
   
 
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