Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

GrapeApe wrote:
I wonder about all this. GW's marketing campaign is fixed on having the Primarch "save the Imperium"

And the problem is that this is just kind of boring and cliche.

Oh look some relic from the past is coming along thinking he can solve all of our problems which he knows next to nothing about. How droll.

The idea that "the heroes of the past" are better than the heroes that are acting RIGHT NOW is as cliche as it gets in fiction, and it's one cliche I resoundingly reject.

 Melissia wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:
I wonder about all this. GW's marketing campaign is fixed on having the Primarch "save the Imperium"

And the problem is that this is just kind of boring and cliche.

Oh look some relic from the past is coming along thinking he can solve all of our problems which he knows next to nothing about. How droll.

The idea that "the heroes of the past" are better than the heroes that are acting RIGHT NOW is as cliche as it gets in fiction, and it's one cliche I resoundingly reject.

Oh i'm in agreement with your assessment.

Except... what's the ultimate limiting factor when assessing 40K lore - in terms of what GW will do?

Does this change to the Setting - will it Sell Models?

An intellectual property like Star Trek or Star Wars - figurines, games, etc are derivative merchandising connected to a story told either in books or movies.

Books/Movies/Stories come First, the rest is extra.

An intellectual property like 40K, the sales of Models and the Game come First. Fluff and story take a back seat to that focus.

The perfect example that springs to mind in this regard is what happened to Warhammer Fantasy and the Age of Sigmar.

I loved Warhammer Fantasy for its low-fantasy feel, but i've seen the figures in terms of AoS sales. I'm obviously in the minority.

When you step away from all the story elements for a second and just look at the Return of the Primarch thing from a business standpoint:

1.) SM sell. I've always wanted to see stats in terms of how much SM sells in comparison to the rest of the 40K pie. I've got a gnawing feeling that if group collectively, SM probably take up the lion's share.

2.) Ultramarines sell. They are often billed as your Basic Starter Chapter. So i'm assuming (and if i'm wrong, someone please show me some stats!) that Ultramarines Sales > Space Wolves or Dark Angels, or Blood Angels, etc.

So yeah - makes sense bringing back the Ultramarine Primarch to go fight [Insert Evil Thing].....even if it is Cliche.

I understand why they do it. Understanding something doesn't mean agreeing with it or finding it more interesting than other choices.

in fairness one of the major thematic elements of 40k from it's inception has indeed been that "the things of modern day are but a shadow of those of the past"

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness one of the major thematic elements of 40k from it's inception has indeed been that "the things of modern day are but a shadow of those of the past"

exactly, the whole theme of 40k is that humanity was at a much greater state in the past, technology wise and also as a civilization

And another one is "countless unknown heroes sacrifice themselves to maintain the status quo, for however grim it is, it's still better than what it could be". Which to me is far more interesting than bringing back a hero from a forgotten age.

Take for example, the Grey Knights:

We do not know what our chances of survival are, so we fight as if they were zero. We do not know what we are facing, so we fight as if it was the dark gods themselves. No one will remember us now and we may never be buried beneath Titan, so we will build our own memorial here. The Chapter might lose us and the Imperium might never know we existed, but the Enemy - the Enemy will know. The Enemy will remember. We will hurt it so badly that it will never forget us until the stars burn out and the Emperor vanquishes it at the end of time. When Chaos is dying, its last thought will be of us. That is our memorial - carved into the heart of Chaos. We cannot lose, Grey Knights. We have already won.

Hell, I'll mock the over the top aspects of the Grey Knights as much as anyone, but that? THAT is awesome. That, to me, is the essence of what it means to be a Space Marine-- something that so many of GW's writers forget about when they're trying to write Sir Godslayer Worldshatter McBadassfist the Third.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 shinros wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
My biggest question is why bring back Guilliman first?
Wouldn't it have been far better to bring back Russ to banish Magnus?
That would have made the writing so much better. Magnus single handedly destroyed a large battle fleet and was proving to be seemingly invincible. Until he gets distracted and the Grey Knights banish him out of nowhere.....
Would've made a lot more sense If Russ showed up with some serious buffs courtesy of Khorne, rallied the Imperial forces and then have EVERYONE throw EVERYTHING at Magnus, who would probably just barely be killed after exhausting Russ' Khorne buffs.
Would've made things more cinematic and would've made the most sense considering they introduced Magnus first.

That sounds pretty bad to me personally and I think RG makes the most sense to come back first considering the current threat the imperium is facing.

How is that bad? That's literally the most metal thing that could have happened. Its not exactly unlike Khorne to give favor to dudes explicitly against him so long as they spill gratutious amounts of blood...effectively worshipping him anyway.
Is RG gonna politick away the Chaos force heading for the imperium's throat? I know what you're saying: the Imperium's biggest problem right now is a lack of organization....and you're wrong.
Magnus showed up, turned Fenris (a fething ball of ice) into a desert and annihilated one of the most formidable fleets assembled in recent memory...effortlessly. If he were to show up on Terra the Imperium is done.
And hes likely far stronger now given that he has a firm hold in real space now that his daemon world is near Prospero. And there are fething 5 others!!!!
Some undone paperwork isnt as threatening to an empire as daemonic gods barreling down at you like a meteor is. Its that simple

Stuff like that is exactly why I don't want primarchs to come back.

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman I suspect isn't gonna come back and be a high Lord. he's gonna come back and be warmaster,

Not Warmaster, Lord Commander.

Also, how did he get The Emperors sword? Who gave it to him ... did he get to stand in His presence ?!

Mellow wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman I suspect isn't gonna come back and be a high Lord. he's gonna come back and be warmaster,

Not Warmaster, Lord Commander.

Also, how did he get The Emperors sword? Who gave it to him ... did he get to stand in His presence ?!

I used warmaster for a VERY specific reason

Re the sword,

one of the relics in codex Space Marines is "the burning blade" which is belived to have been the emperor's sword. the easiest explination is that Gulliman wields it.

if we move away from that and seek a more complex answer, consider that prior to his injury at Fulgrim's hands, Gulliman was the leader of the High Lords of Terra, and de facto, the Emperor's sucessor. it's possiable the sword was recovered, and the surviving primarchs universally agreed that Gulliman should have it, as it might serve as a symbol in his hands, and since his injury it has sat revered, in the vaults of Macragge.

Sounds like a sensible answer to me.

Although I prefer to think he walked up to the Throne and took it. With the help of Trayzn.