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LightKing wrote:
Roboute better not be complaining about Chapters because he was the one who wrote the codex to split the legions

I doubt he'll complain, but the question is if he'll belive the policy needs to be reviewed.

another thing...

I wonder who is going to have more authority between Roboute and Celestine

can't one presume that she is at least on his level in terms of power?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Only if you also think a character cannot be stubborn without being Stubborn.

What? Huron wasn't there during the HH, yet he has VOTLW, its pretty clear this means VOTLW isn't limited to the HH

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Only if you also think a character cannot be stubborn without being Stubborn.

What? Huron wasn't there during the HH, yet he has VOTLW, its pretty clear this means VOTLW isn't limited to the HH

The point being that Veterans of the Long War may not necessarily refer to veteran of the long war in the sense FW used it, especially since it is not a rule in use by FW at all. Hence, stubborn may not necessarily be Stubborn, which is a comparable situation.

 Melissia wrote:
Things are stated as propaganda.

Well yeah but literally anything can be propaganda. The entire existence of the Sisters of Battle could be nothing but an incredibly elaborate and lengthy propaganda campaign designed to inspire common citizens with the possibility that humans too can fight with bolter, PA and chainsword and tackle the big beasties of the galaxy, and the same could be said for anything from the Custodes to the Titan Legions. Hell, basically the entirety of the setting could be nothing but propaganda meant only to ensure citizens are terrified of the wars supposedly being fought out there so they won't rebel. It's a bit of a non-argument.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm not really interested in arguing

Yet here you are.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what exactly does "Veteran of the long war" MEAN though? do you have to have fought in the heresy? I don't recall it ever being defined

In some places, yes it means they fought in the heresy. But in others it doesnt. I believe Huron has VotLW, and he certainly wasnt in the heresy. On the other hand I dont think Fabulous Bill has VotLW, while he did fight in the heresy.

Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Yeah, guess I got it half right.

Still Huron was just an ordinary chapter master who went traitor in 900M41. He fought the Badab war for 8 years. You would expect he would only be 300-600 years old. Certainly a veteran of some sort, but not Heresy level.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Only if you also think a character cannot be stubborn without being Stubborn.

What? Huron wasn't there during the HH, yet he has VOTLW, its pretty clear this means VOTLW isn't limited to the HH

The point being that Veterans of the Long War may not necessarily refer to veteran of the long war in the sense FW used it, especially since it is not a rule in use by FW at all. Hence, stubborn may not necessarily be Stubborn, which is a comparable situation.

Guess its up to interpretation, then.

Will Roboute have authority over Celestine?

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Only if you also think a character cannot be stubborn without being Stubborn.

What? Huron wasn't there during the HH, yet he has VOTLW, its pretty clear this means VOTLW isn't limited to the HH

The point being that Veterans of the Long War may not necessarily refer to veteran of the long war in the sense FW used it, especially since it is not a rule in use by FW at all. Hence, stubborn may not necessarily be Stubborn, which is a comparable situation.

Guess its up to interpretation, then.

40k really has a habit of throwing things that way, doesn't it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LightKing wrote:
Will Roboute have authority over Celestine?

I am fairly sure both exist outside the formal heirarchy.

In practice, Guilliman is the literal son of the Emperor and I imagine Celestine is going to be his buddy out of respect if nothing else (which could be interesting as she is the physical manifestation of the idea that the Emperor is a god, something Guilliman is perhaps not a fan of.)

LightKing wrote:
another thing...

I wonder who is going to have more authority between Roboute and Celestine

can't one presume that she is at least on his level in terms of power?

I doubt it, Celestine's only authority comes from being a living saint. Gulliman has a host of titles to his name, and IIRC is basicly one of the "Apostles"

What i am most excited to see is how the other space marine chapters will react besides the Ultramarines

will they yeild to Roboute's rule?

whats preventing the more radical elements of the elesicarchy from whining that he is just a trick/mirage/faker due to the fact that xenos technology may have been used to revive him?

Girlyman is still technically a High Lord of Terra as they did not revoke his positon out of respect when he was presumed dead. So he out ranks everyone but other high lords.

As for other marines thats a non issue betwen retcons to Black Templars and them gutting Space pups and Imp Fists there is no one to stop them due to all the many UM successors still being subservient to the UM effectively making them a legion.

DragonRaptor wrote:
whats preventing the more radical elements of the elesicarchy from whining that he is just a trick/mirage/faker due to the fact that xenos technology may have been used to revive him?

St Celestine standing next to him and saying the Emperor protects (and also smites)

If they are able to work together that's some of the most powerful elements of the Imperium - the Church and the Astartes (well the loyal ones)
The Guard will follow the Church and the Astartes

The Mechanicus - well again if Cawl says its all good and he retains his status with Mars - again difficult to see them being against it.

What's left

The Inquisition - well likely as usual some will be against, some for and lots on the fence.
Maybe some Chapters of Astartes - but I think few would be against a Primarch

and even the inqusition would be inclined to accept it if Greyfax happened to give him a "clean bill of health" I suspect, given how much of a hard core puritan she is.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:
Girlyman is still technically a High Lord of Terra as they did not revoke his positon out of respect when he was presumed dead. So he out ranks everyone but other high lords.

As for other marines thats a non issue betwen retcons to Black Templars and them gutting Space pups and Imp Fists there is no one to stop them due to all the many UM successors still being subservient to the UM effectively making them a legion.

ugh, first of all, the UM sucessors aren't super duper subservant to the UMs any more then the feast of blades proves the IF sucessors are are secretly a legion. sure there is respect due to the common history, but that doesn't mean much, that said if the Primarch returns, yes I expect many if not all UM sucessors to at least hear him out, and if they reasonably can, follow his requests.

that said, the other sucessor chapters aren't going to nesscarily suddenly be hostile to him, he may not be THEIR Primarch, but he's A Primarch, and a VERY influential one at that. of all the Primarchs out there I suspect Gulliman commands the most respect of the loyalist primarchs outside of his own sons (save Sanguinis whose dead) hell we know Black Templars are traveling with Celestine, for all we know they'll be rallying their brethren to Gulliman's side. I mean, if it happens it's not hard to find out why. save the emperor himself returning, a crusade force lead by Gulliman and Celestine is pretty much the greatest crusade the IoM has known since the Great Crusade

and even the inqusition would be inclined to accept it if Greyfax happened to give him a "clean bill of health" I suspect, given how much of a hard core puritan she is

Hmm not sure how much weight she would have as:

She is apparently from a different era - but no clue when as apparently she recently killed Valeria as well (???) so who would know her?

Some of her peers may /conceivably detect the Necron mind shackle as Cawl did.

She is, ironically, the most heretical of the recent Imperial characters.

I think a lot of it will depend on what Roboute decides to do. He designed a lot of the current Imperial institutions and the fact the whole thing is still standing (just about) 9000 years later is a pretty impressive testament to that. Ironically he really needs to be made Warmaster in order to save the Imperium effectively and he worked very hard to make sure no one could ever wield that much power again.

I doubt the current state of the Imperium will please him but he is very smart and also a pragmatist. He will not want to cause any infighting while the Imperium is in such jeopardy. Most likely he will do whatever needs to be done to deal with the current crisis without making too many waves. Meanwhile, he will quietly be making plans for Imperium 2.0.

Is Celestine a "Command" authority? I sort of thought she was more like a temporary apparition that occurs and then disappears again. I would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy/Sisters Canonesses would be the natural authorities of any Sororitas task force, and function as an adjunct to regional Guard/Chapter command (with any of those factions acting as overall command).

I honestly don't know where Celestine fits in there.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Is Celestine a "Command" authority? I sort of thought she was more like a temporary apparition that occurs and then disappears again. I would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy/Sisters Canonesses would be the natural authorities of any Sororitas task force, and function as an adjunct to regional Guard/Chapter command (with any of those factions acting as overall command).

I honestly don't know where Celestine fits in there.

She is def more of a deus ex machina but her backing of RG would be as valuable as Cawls - if you have the Miltary, the Church and the Mechanicum there should be little than can stand against you - Vandire did not have that much and he pretty much ruled the Imperium until his death.

The Sororitas are as independant as the Astartes - you can ask them to do things but they choose, they have a wide brief to protect the holy and the church from both internal and external threats. They are however not found in large numbers.

would Gulliman even need her backing though? as I udnerstand it all of the loyalist primarchs are considered saints in their own right. I daresay Gulliman is remembered as "the greatest of primarchs" especially given that it's suggested the traitor primarchs are largely covered up, and much of Horus' achomplishments ended up laid at Gulliman's feet.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
He'd seek out Bjorn the Fell-Handed being the only Loyalist from the same era and get himself updated on what has happened since the Heresy.
The Space Wolves don't do the Codex Astartes but they do make liquor strong enough to kill a human and poisons that allow a Space Marine or even a Primarch to feel it.

After hearing what has happened to the Imperium even RG is gonna need sommething bracing.

also just because the space wolves don't use the codex, doesn't mean they'd not give Gulliman some props. (I've always thought that a GREAT novel would be a combined Ultramarine/Space Wolf operation. they start off in conflcit over each others approuch, but by the end have come to appreciate each other. it's like a buddy cop movie with Marines )

as much as the whole spirtual leige thing is mocked, I do think Gulliman is most likely to be the most respected primarch among all marine chapters regardless of their background. if only for his role as a architect of the IoM

Man, that would work like an episode of the A Team. WIth Robute as Hannibal, Grimnar as BA Barakus, Cypher as Face and a Harliquin as Murdoch.

Durandal wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
He'd seek out Bjorn the Fell-Handed being the only Loyalist from the same era and get himself updated on what has happened since the Heresy.
The Space Wolves don't do the Codex Astartes but they do make liquor strong enough to kill a human and poisons that allow a Space Marine or even a Primarch to feel it.

After hearing what has happened to the Imperium even RG is gonna need sommething bracing.

also just because the space wolves don't use the codex, doesn't mean they'd not give Gulliman some props. (I've always thought that a GREAT novel would be a combined Ultramarine/Space Wolf operation. they start off in conflcit over each others approuch, but by the end have come to appreciate each other. it's like a buddy cop movie with Marines )

as much as the whole spirtual leige thing is mocked, I do think Gulliman is most likely to be the most respected primarch among all marine chapters regardless of their background. if only for his role as a architect of the IoM

Man, that would work like an episode of the A Team. WIth Robute as Hannibal, Grimnar as BA Barakus, Cypher as Face and a Harliquin as Murdoch.

<lights cigar>

I love it when a crusade comes together!

Guys,


should Roboute focus on getting revenge against Fulgrim

LightKing wrote:
Guys,


should Roboute focus on getting revenge against Fulgrim

No, that would be silly.

First, the Imperium is currently under siege from Abaddon's Black Crusade - he will want to address that before he does anything else.

Second, the Imperium has far bigger priorities than the existence of a Daemon Primarch who (at this point) isn't terribly active in realspace. Guilliman needs to focus on what he does best, and what he is uniquely capable of doing - slowing (but even for him, probably not stopping) the decline and losses of the Imperium to the various factions nibbling away at it.

Third, even IF Guilliman were capable of striking Fulgrim down (again), what effect would it really have? Fulgrim is a Daemon now, and he'll just respawn in the warp. That sounds like a complete waste of time and effort to me.

 Karhedron wrote:
I think a lot of it will depend on what Roboute decides to do. He designed a lot of the current Imperial institutions and the fact the whole thing is still standing (just about) 9000 years later is a pretty impressive testament to that. Ironically he really needs to be made Warmaster in order to save the Imperium effectively and he worked very hard to make sure no one could ever wield that much power again.

I doubt the current state of the Imperium will please him but he is very smart and also a pragmatist. He will not want to cause any infighting while the Imperium is in such jeopardy. Most likely he will do whatever needs to be done to deal with the current crisis without making too many waves. Meanwhile, he will quietly be making plans for Imperium 2.0.

Imperium 2.0....Imperium Secundus? Tricundus maybe

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

LightKing wrote:
Guys,


should Roboute focus on getting revenge against Fulgrim

No, that would be silly.

First, the Imperium is currently under siege from Abaddon's Black Crusade - he will want to address that before he does anything else.

Second, the Imperium has far bigger priorities than the existence of a Daemon Primarch who (at this point) isn't terribly active in realspace. Guilliman needs to focus on what he does best, and what he is uniquely capable of doing - slowing (but even for him, probably not stopping) the decline and losses of the Imperium to the various factions nibbling away at it.

Third, even IF Guilliman were capable of striking Fulgrim down (again), what effect would it really have? Fulgrim is a Daemon now, and he'll just respawn in the warp. That sounds like a complete waste of time and effort to me.

fair point....

Im interested in how you think Roboute will interact with the church, the high lords of terra, the inqusition etc.?

LightKing wrote:
Im interested in how you think Roboute will interact with the church, the high lords of terra, the inqusition etc.?

Church: Probably doing more good them harm. Not what Dad wanted; deal with later.
HLoT: Probably doing more harm then good, but a massive problem to sort out. If handled poorly, has the power to screw everything up in a fit of pique, or just a reaction to a threat to their power. Assess angle of attack, reform system without resulting in civil war/anarchy. As to if a swift stroke or a slow turn is needed would require details we really don’t have. But someone of RG’s skills should be able to figure out. This problem is firmly in his wheelhouse.
Inquisition: Largely fragmented. Individuals can be threats or assets. Try to turn the first half into the second. Powerful tools if they can be harnessed/directed. Requires a subtle touch.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

LightKing wrote:
Guys,


should Roboute focus on getting revenge against Fulgrim

No, that would be silly.

First, the Imperium is currently under siege from Abaddon's Black Crusade - he will want to address that before he does anything else.

Second, the Imperium has far bigger priorities than the existence of a Daemon Primarch who (at this point) isn't terribly active in realspace. Guilliman needs to focus on what he does best, and what he is uniquely capable of doing - slowing (but even for him, probably not stopping) the decline and losses of the Imperium to the various factions nibbling away at it.

Third, even IF Guilliman were capable of striking Fulgrim down (again), what effect would it really have? Fulgrim is a Daemon now, and he'll just respawn in the warp. That sounds like a complete waste of time and effort to me.

Fourth, Guilliman and the imperium cant go after Fulgrim in the eye of terror. It's not like Rowboat can travel through the warp on his own, land on Fulgrim's planet and beat his way through a world of daemons to get to him. Even then, Fulgrim is no sloach, particularly when powered up in the eye.

Given all these observations about political realities / leadership of the Ultramarines / Imperial Church / presence of the Black Legion / revenge on Fulgrim / interaction with the High Lords of Terra, I am forced to ask: who in the universe would Roboute Guilliman not have a problem with?

Seems like he was better off dead.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Given all these observations about political realities / leadership of the Ultramarines / Imperial Church / presence of the Black Legion / revenge on Fulgrim / interaction with the High Lords of Terra, I am forced to ask: who in the universe would Roboute Guilliman not have a problem with?

Seems like he was better off dead.

I wonder about all this. GW's marketing campaign is fixed on having the Primarch "save the Imperium"

Yet everyone here seems to want Roboute to get bogged down in internal politics and not face the great narrative threat of Black Crusade.

While i have no doubt that our Primarch will have to make a lot of.....adjusments... to his new situation, i'm surprised so many people don't think he has the level of flexibility to make a Compromise or Two in order to Save the Imperium.

Because ultimately, that's what the Mission Statement is - Save the Imperium. All other considerations are going to go to the back burner.

The other issue of course is taht all these other internal institutions are facing the same exact problem....

The Ship of State is sinking, the Sharks in the water are circling... are they really that idiotic enough to complain about who gets to wear the shiny hat of leadership when Death might be upon them?

Gulliman I suspect isn't gonna come back and be a high Lord. he's gonna come back and be warmaster,