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Hi! I'm a long time player that just joined Dakka. Ihaven't played a lot in 7th edition, but 8th has brought me back to 40k.

Spartacus wrote:

Audustum wrote:


That appears to be correct for the moment, but I highly it's intentional and will probably be corrected when we get a full Codex. Much like our Librarians currently being able to take Storm Shields.

I think that's what they intended, keeping the style of Librarian psychic might separate from the rank and file Grey Knight abilities. I mean, if there was any unit they would pay particular attention as to who was given rites of banishment or not, surely it would be the Librarian, pretty significant difference for him.

On a related note, unless I was going for a BroCaptain buff I would consider taking a generic SM Librarian instead of a GK one. The Librarius powers affect ADEPTUS ASTARTES models, and I think null zone is too good of a power to pass up for the way Grey Knights play.

You are reading the librarian wrong: it is exactly the same as the SM one except it has grenades and a warding stve, so the GK librarian also uses the SM psychic powers

zinch wrote:
Hi! I'm a long time player that just joined Dakka. Ihaven't played a lot in 7th edition, but 8th has brought me back to 40k.

Spartacus wrote:

Audustum wrote:


That appears to be correct for the moment, but I highly it's intentional and will probably be corrected when we get a full Codex. Much like our Librarians currently being able to take Storm Shields.

I think that's what they intended, keeping the style of Librarian psychic might separate from the rank and file Grey Knight abilities. I mean, if there was any unit they would pay particular attention as to who was given rites of banishment or not, surely it would be the Librarian, pretty significant difference for him.

On a related note, unless I was going for a BroCaptain buff I would consider taking a generic SM Librarian instead of a GK one. The Librarius powers affect ADEPTUS ASTARTES models, and I think null zone is too good of a power to pass up for the way Grey Knights play.

You are reading the librarian wrong: it is exactly the same as the SM one except it has grenades and a warding stve, so the GK librarian also uses the SM psychic powers

You sir are the one that is wrong. You might have missed it. Under the Grey Knights Chapter heading is says replace <Chapter> with Grey Knights for the Sm Librarian, then afterward it says Grey Knight Psykers generate their power form the Sanctic Discipline instead of the Librarius discipline. Sm Librarians are psykers and gain the Grey Knight keyword thus the no longer use the other psychic power table.

I guess it's not clear, but as I see it, in the librarian datasheet describes wich psychic powers he has and it says the smite power and another one from the SM list.

zinch wrote:
I guess it's not clear, but as I see it, in the librarian datasheet describes wich psychic powers he has and it says the smite power and another one from the SM list.

It seems very clear, once you have the Grey Knight key word, it says use this new list instead of the normal one.

My bad. I haven't seen the line you were referring to. I was wrong.

I would use a SM librarian also, then...

A little more on topic: I played a 1500 points game the other day and I have to say that Termies are very durable now. I love them!
We have a hard time killing multiwound models from distance, but that is solved with our combat damage of at least 1D3 (hammerhand and force weapons are nasty against vehicles/MC).

I'm liking the gk list. The only issues I see is the short psychic powers list and having to play 2 HQ to get +3 command points

Have any of you noticed the strike squad yet? I think most people dismiss it but for what you get it's actually an amazing anti infantry unit - probably the best ive seen so far in reviewing the indexes. It didn't stand out initially with me ether until I played a game with the terminators and saw how effective their storm bolters were.

8 storm bolters and 2 psilencers = 44 str 4 shots exactly where you want them turn 1. That's incredibly efficient for a 214 point unit. You could even leave out the silencers and keep more close combat potency without much loss of firepower. (I think I might do this).

Kind of exciting for me because I have 40 Strike squad marines from 5th edition.

Am thinking of putting together a Grey knights list for 8th.

Am new to Wh40k, but the knights seem awsome.

I like the idea of big meaty dudes charging down the field into melee, and it seems like that is kinda Grey Knights purpose?

I have 4k+ points of Eldar I am still putting together, but it looks like melee will be a lot more viable in 8th than it was in 7th, so i was looking for a more melee-oriented tanky bunch... would Grey Knights fit that description?

Would also like them to be at least somewhat competitive as I am a competitive person, and while I dont need to be OP or win every game, I want to have a chance at beating anything/remaining competitive without people needing to play down.

They're supposed to be meaty folks, yeah and melee is the only spot they really shine.

We used to rely on our Terminators for what you're describing, but what you might want to do now is treat your Grey Knights as a supplement rather than a whole army. Take a Vanguard Detachment with Draigo/Voldus/Brotherhood Champion, 3 barebones Paladin units and add 1-2 Dreadknights if you have the points to spare.

There's your heavy melee meat. Now you can use somebody else to add in ranged firepower to support them.

Anyone know why they made Pallies WS 3+? Just so random...

 Quickjager wrote:
Anyone know why they made Pallies WS 3+? Just so random...

Pretty much every non-Character with WS 5 became WS 3+ in 8th, it isn't really that odd.

Here's some math-hammer on our infantry Psilencers vs. Psycannons in 8th ed:

Let's assume you're shooting a T7 multi-wound unit with 3+ save (pretty standard in 8th ed) and you moved in the preceding movement phase.

Psycannon --> 14 or 20 pts (Terminators) --> 4 Shots --> 2 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.5 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.5 Damage --> 0.0367 damage per point. For Terminators that's 0.025 damage per point
Psilencer --> 4 or 10 pts (Terminators) --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.66 Damage --> 0.164 damage per point. For Terminators that's 0.066 damage per point WINNER

You'll find similar results at all other toughness and armor save values.

TLDR Psilencer averages more damage output than Psycannon against all multi-wound toughness & armor save values. If they were the same price the Psilencer would STILL be better, but because Psilencer is cheaper it's a no-brainer! The only advantage to the Psycannon is that it outputs more damage against single-wound units... but that's what Storm Bolters are for, right?

Okay, but the Psycannon has -1 Rend and the Psilencer doesn't have it.

So you give some units a better save or a save at all by using the psilencer. I think both weapons have their uses.

Also by your math, if the psilencer has a lower Unsaved Wounds (0,33), how is it possible it makes more dmg?

If your opponent saves better, you could not make more dmg.

I don't know if any of the special weapons are even worth the extra points. I think I may just take nothing but sotrmbolters and use generic units to bring lascannons/autocannons/plasmaguns and metla. Weapons that actually manage to do damage, un-like the the GK unique weapons.

Stormbolters are really good, with their 4 shots at 12".

The other 3 Specialweapons are okay, but nothing special.

 Darksider wrote:
Okay, but the Psycannon has -1 Rend and the Psilencer doesn't have it.

Thanks for your response!

Psycannon --> 14 or 20 pts (Terminators) --> 4 Shots --> 2 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.5 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.5 Damage --> 0.0367 damage per point. For Terminators that's 0.025 damage per point
Psilencer --> 4 or 10 pts (Terminators) --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.66 Damage --> 0.164 damage per point. For Terminators that's 0.066 damage per point WINNER

You'll notice my math accounted for the Psycannon's -1 AP. I stated these numbers assumed the target unit has 3+ Save. So 1 wound from the Psycannon, on average, would resolve to 0.5 Unsaved Wounds, as my opponent's save is a 50% probability at 4+. Likewise, 1 Wound from the Psilencer, on average, would resolve to 0.33 Unsaved Wound, as my opponent's save is a 66.7% probability at 3+.

 Darksider wrote:
Also by your math, if the psilencer has a lower Unsaved Wounds (0,33), how is it possible it makes more dmg?

If your opponent saves better, you could not make more dmg.

The Psilencer's damage characteristic is D3, whereas the Psycannon's is 1. D3 averages to a 2, therefore 0.33 Unsaved Wounds from the Psilencer results in 0.66 Damage.

Okay, missed that the Psilencer is D3 dmg. My bad .

Sorry if i my answers are not always that clear or seem not that polite. English isn't my motherlanguage and sometimes i lack the words to describe something =).

But now it seems more clear and it seems i forgot to read some of the things you wrote above.

Psilencer seems good, but i think that also the Cannon will have it's uses. But Stormbolter overshadows both of these Specialweapons .

 Darksider wrote:
Psilencer seems good, but i think that also the Cannon will have it's uses.

As I showed, the Psycannon is always less point-efficient than a Psilencer. Furthermore, the Psycannon will only output more damage than the Psilencer when shooting single-wound models. So if you know you're going up against a Horde army then you MIGHT consider taking Psycannons. Otherwise there are literally no other scenarios in which a Psycannon outshines the Psilencer.

 Coyote81 wrote:
I don't know if any of the special weapons are even worth the extra points.

 Darksider wrote:
But Stormbolter overshadows both of these Specialweapons

Let's do the math!

Rapid Firing against a T5 unit comprised of multi-wound models with 3+ armor saves. Let's assume you moved in the preceding movement phase...

Storm Bolter (2 pts) --> 4 Shots --> 2.67 Hits --> 0.89 Wounds --> 0.3 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.3 Damage --> 0.15 Damage Per Point
Psilencer (4/10) pts --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.66 Damage --> 0.165 Damage Per Point. For Terminators that's 0.066 Damage Per Point

NOT Rapid Firing...

Storm Bolter (2 pts) --> 2 Shots --> 1.33 Hits --> 0.44 Wounds --> 0.15 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.15 Damage --> 0.075 Damage Per Point

Single-wound targets...

Psilencer (4/10) pts --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.33 Damage --> 0.0825 Damage Per Point. For Terminators that's 0.033 Damage Per Point

Lessons

1) When shooting multi-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4 pts is more points-efficient & more damage output than a Storm Bolter, even if it's rapid firing.
2) When shooting multi-wound targets, the Terminator's Psilencer @ 10 pts less points-efficient but more damage output than a Storm Bolter, even if it's rapid firing.

3) When shooting single-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4 pts is more points-efficient & more damage output than a Storm Bolter NOT rapid firing.
4) When shooting single-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4/10 pts is less points-efficient but more damage output than a Storm Bolter when rapid firing

TLDR the Psilencer, especially the 4 point version, is absolutely worth the upgrade points over the default Storm Bolter. It outclasses the Storm Bolter in most scenarios.

Edited for grammar and clarity.

Nairul wrote:

 Darksider wrote:
Psilencer seems good, but i think that also the Cannon will have it's uses.

As I showed, the Psycannon is always less point-efficient than a Psilencer. Furthermore, the Psycannon will only output more damage than the Psilencer when shooting single-wound models. So if you know you're going up against a Horde army then you MIGHT consider taking Psycannons. Otherwise there are literally no other scenarios in which a Psycannon outshines the Psilencer.

 Coyote81 wrote:
I don't know if any of the special weapons are even worth the extra points.

 Darksider wrote:
But Stormbolter overshadows both of these Specialweapons

Let's do the math!

Rapid Firing against a T5 unit comprised of multi-wound models with 3+ armor saves. Let's assume you moved in the preceding movement phase...

Storm Bolter (2 pts) --> 4 Shots --> 2.67 Hits --> 0.89 Wounds --> 0.3 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.3 Damage --> 0.15 Damage Per Point
Psilencer (4/10) pts --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.66 Damage --> 0.165 Damage Per Point. For Terminators that's 0.066 Damage Per Point

NOT Rapid Firing...

Storm Bolter (2 pts) --> 2 Shots --> 1.33 Hits --> 0.44 Wounds --> 0.15 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.15 Damage --> 0.075 Damage Per Point

Single-wound targets...

Psilencer (4/10) pts --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wounds --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.33 Damage --> 0.0825 Damage Per Point. For Terminators that's 0.033 Damage Per Point

Lessons

1) When shooting multi-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4 pts is more points-efficient & more damage output than a Storm Bolter, even if it's rapid firing.
2) When shooting multi-wound targets, the Terminator's Psilencer @ 10 pts less points-efficient but more damage output than a Storm Bolter, even if it's rapid firing.

3) When shooting single-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4 pts is more points-efficient & more damage output than a Storm Bolter NOT rapid firing.
4) When shooting single-wound targets, the Psilencer @ 4/10 pts is less points-efficient but more damage output than a Storm Bolter when rapid firing

TLDR the Psilencer, especially the 4 point version, is absolutely worth the upgrade points over the default Storm Bolter. It outclasses the Storm Bolter in most scenarios.

Edited for grammar and clarity.

Thanks for mathhammering that. The psilencer was the one heavy I tried so far (Since I have heavy weapons modelled) because it was so cheap, it didn't feel any different the the storm bolter, but I'm glad you could clear it up that it is a little better.

But then you have to ask whether or not it's worth giving up a melee weapon in order to do slightly more damage at ranged. I think that is the main reason that it's more expensive for terminators since they get to keep their free melee weapon.

 Zimko wrote:
But then you have to ask whether or not it's worth giving up a melee weapon in order to do slightly more damage at ranged. I think that is the main reason that it's more expensive for terminators since they get to keep their free melee weapon.

Great point!

Playing pure GK in 8th I've made this observation: despite all our units having good melee capabilities, our success depends more so on the Shooting & Psychic phases of our Alpha Strike turn. 9" charges are unreliable -- 27.8%, to be exact. Higher odds if you want to use a CP, but still unreliable. Therefore, we should expect most of our deep striking units NOT to make their Turn 1 charges. So the opponent will often get a chance to shoot/charge the crap out of our deep striking units with the full force of his back line!

Logic would follow our best chance of survival is to cripple the opponent with our Shooting/Psychic on that turn we alpha strike. Kind of like Tempestus in 7th. The more we shoot, smite, and kill in that critical turn, the less they have to punish us. Hence why I always favor Psilencers over 2x Nemesis Falchions!

The only way to reliable put your troops into melee on turn 2 is to deliver them with a Stormraven. Teleport strike is particularly good if you want to teleport the troop into a covered location that is 9-12" away from your opponent. So, that you may set up in rapid fire range with cover.

Terrain Note: If you have a ruin in that range always set up on the second or higher floor. Vehicles cannot charge someone on the second floor of a building. As they cannot even get to the second floor of a building with the Advanced rules.

Did anyone notice that Interceptors lost the "jump" rule and designation? At first I thought that it was a direct nerf to the unit as they cannot assault flying units, but due to RAW it means that interceptors now only take up 1 space in transports as opposed to 2. I don't know what sort of advantage I could make from this, but just though I would share it with all of you since nobody has mentioned it yet

So, yeah....

Brother Captain Stern - [Gate of Infinity]
9 Grey Knight Librarians - [Gate of Infinity]
2 Apothecaries - [Gate of Infinity]
1 Rhino
1 Razorback with twin lascannon

Is a perfectly valid force, it worked really well in play. You will completely clear the area for 36" around your characters.

I managed to kill the imperial knight, 1 death company, Sanguinar , Lemartes, 2 priests, 1 death company dreadnought, 2 tactical squads and 2 devastator squads by turn 4.

Had trouble with a laspredator and a librarian dreadnought that spent it's time hiding.

Lost on cards of the Maelstrom mission because he drew his objectives 3 times in a row. Final score was 11 BA to 7 GK at end of turn 7.

Youn wrote:
So, yeah....

Brother Captain Stern - [Gate of Infinity]
9 Grey Knight Librarians - [Gate of Infinity]
2 Apothecaries - [Gate of Infinity]
1 Rhino
1 Razorback with twin lascannon

Is a perfectly valid force, it worked really well in play. You will completely clear the area for 36" around your characters.

I managed to kill the imperial knight, 1 death company, Sanguinar , Lemartes, 2 priests, 1 death company dreadnought, 2 tactical squads and 2 devastator squads by turn 4.

Had trouble with a laspredator and a librarian dreadnought that spent it's time hiding.

Lost on cards of the Maelstrom mission because he drew his objectives 3 times in a row. Final score was 11 BA to 7 GK at end of turn 7.

Only problem in matched play is, that you can use each power only once a turn (besides smite of course). So if your plan was to teleport each of your guys, i am sorry but in matched play it won't work =(.

I did play matched play. I only wanted to teleport 1 librarian a turn to take objectives. As I wasn't sure which would be alive and I didn't think Hammerhand or Purge Soul would be used, I simply took Gate of Infinity on every psyker.


In the end, I cast Gate of infinity 5 times in 7 turns. It gave me Line Breaker and wiped out 2 devastator units with teleporting a Librarian to 9" from them and then Blasting them with Smite.

I lost 2 Apothecaries, 1 Rhino, 1 Razorback and 4 Librarians by the end of Turn 7. So, they did kill far more then they were killed.

Like I said, the only reason he won was he drew Don't allow enemy to be within 12" of center of board for 3 VP, and Objective 5 three times. That amounted to 4 of his victory points simply on random pick.

1 Apothicary and 3 of the Librarians died due to an objective near the predator that was worth victory points for me if I owned it at the start of the turn. I kept teleporting 1 individual over to the point, then losing it to that predator. Each time I did teleport, I failed the charge to engage the predator.

Something I noticed to when I was list building for my first game was the range of the Incinerator. Which coming from 7th the 8in is no big deal BUT with the changes to "deep strike" and must be 9in away from enemy models is makes the Incinerator less favorable on my Interceptors.

(if this has been discussed already sorry!)

Storm Bolters are the big winners in this edition. I played against mech guard and the amount of shots the bolters put out was amazing. The lack of AP doesn't matter since we are forcing so many saves. I will more than likely will not be running special weapons, but I do need to try out the Psilencers seeing the math now.

 FinkleLord wrote:
Something I noticed to when I was list building for my first game was the range of the Incinerator. Which coming from 7th the 8in is no big deal BUT with the changes to "deep strike" and must be 9in away from enemy models is makes the Incinerator less favorable on my Interceptors.

(if this has been discussed already sorry!)

Storm Bolters are the big winners in this edition. I played against mech guard and the amount of shots the bolters put out was amazing. The lack of AP doesn't matter since we are forcing so many saves. I will more than likely will not be running special weapons, but I do need to try out the Psilencers seeing the math now.

I encourage you try them out! The math on Psilencer ain't wrong. Just think of it as a 6-shot Storm Bolter that does D3 damage instead of 1, except it's usually hitting on 4's instead of 3's (FYI Gate of Infinity does NOT count as having moved! So if you cast Gate on a unit that didn't move they can shoot at full BS).

Now consider it only costs 2 points more than a Storm Bolter for non-terminator units. So in my judgment that weapon is an auto include in any Strike, Interceptor, Purifier, or Purgation squad.

After that I'd still recommend it for all terminators and paladins (though why would you take Termies over Paladins lol). There are few circumstances where a storm bolter is more points efficient than a 10-point Psilencer (see my post above). The other two special weapons are useless comparatively.

Can attest to the value of Psilencers:

Facing 1000 Sons they were in their element as they ignored the save modifier usually granted against 1 Damage weapons. I had 3 Terminator units each with a psilencer and throughout the game they pulled off many important finishing blows including a Lord of change, a defiler, and one-shotting a Scarab Terminator in overwatch. The rerolls from Draigo helped immensely (with everything really).

With the D3 damage and longer effective ranger compared to Storm Bolters I found them to be a great option to split off in order to finish off wounded larger targets, while the storm bolters rapid fire at closer enemies.

Youn wrote:
and wiped out 2 devastator units with teleporting a Librarian to 9" from them and then Blasting them with Smite.

Apologies if I've missed something here, I'm very curious how this was achieved. Assuming the 2 devastator units were 5 man units then that is 10 models. Smite would kill 1 per turn with a Librarian successfully casting it every turn. How did you wipe out both units?

Im assuming it was over two seperate turns? Isnt a high cast smite D6 wounds?

Sounds like getting lucky