Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Common mistake. You don't hear as much about OP lists when it's Marines as you do when it's xenos.

Yes you do. I know hating on Marines never goes out of fashion but come on.

I should temper that to you don't always hear.

Pre-Gladius Obsec spam SM didn't get complained about nearly as much as DAVU or Decurion. Grav Biker spam got complained about more than Obsec, but less than DAVU/Decurion/etc. Gladius, Skyhammer, and to a lesser extent Bobby G w/ACs was complained about about as much as xenos.

In their day at least.

People still complain regularly about DAVU or Warp Spider spam or Riptide Wing much more than the SM OP builds of about the same era.

Now, all those things being so grosly OP is wrong. And part of why some SM OP builds - especially ObsecSpam - aren't as complained about is they're more fluffy and less unfun to play against. But even when SM were the top army (they aren't now), you'd still see threads pop up all the time about them being the worst, or what needs to be done to "fix" them.

My original statement was overly strong, certainly. And there is certainly a lot of unreasonable hate of any army around here. Marines being the most common certainly attracts more hate than average. But the hate for Marines is nothing compared to the hate of Tau or Eldar.

IG are the new Eldar to me.

They're fine. People still use them all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
But even when SM were the top army (they aren't now), you'd still see threads pop up all the time about them being the worst

Yeah, untalented players gotta whine and explain away their constant losses. Balance isn't perfect, but it's sure as hell not as bad as the hyperbolic ranting makes it out to be.

Bharring wrote:
I should temper that to you don't always hear.

Pre-Gladius Obsec spam SM didn't get complained about nearly as much as DAVU or Decurion. Grav Biker spam got complained about more than Obsec, but less than DAVU/Decurion/etc. Gladius, Skyhammer, and to a lesser extent Bobby G w/ACs was complained about about as much as xenos.

In their day at least.

People still complain regularly about DAVU or Warp Spider spam or Riptide Wing much more than the SM OP builds of about the same era.

Now, all those things being so grosly OP is wrong. And part of why some SM OP builds - especially ObsecSpam - aren't as complained about is they're more fluffy and less unfun to play against. But even when SM were the top army (they aren't now), you'd still see threads pop up all the time about them being the worst, or what needs to be done to "fix" them.

My original statement was overly strong, certainly. And there is certainly a lot of unreasonable hate of any army around here. Marines being the most common certainly attracts more hate than average. But the hate for Marines is nothing compared to the hate of Tau or Eldar.

You had complaints about Centurionstar and then Xenos players that were upset Marines had an actual good Troop option outside Scouts through bikes. There was no Objective Secured spam until Gladius, as it gave you a ridiculously stupid bonus. 400+ free points? Sure. Not even the AdMech formation gave you that many free points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
They're fine. People still use them all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
But even when SM were the top army (they aren't now), you'd still see threads pop up all the time about them being the worst

Yeah, untalented players gotta whine and explain away their constant losses. Balance isn't perfect, but it's sure as hell not as bad as the hyperbolic ranting makes it out to be.

You mean the talented players not wanting to use Gladius?

Bitter SoB player is bitter again.

Gladius died with 8th. What are you on about?

Insectum - this line of discussion is about (A) whether SM have been OP from time to time and (B) if their OP builds get remembered as frequently as Xeno OP builds. Gladius, along with Scatter Bike spam and Decurion, certainly died with 8th.

Slayer,
Read back further, then. Were the 2014 7th Ed obsec-spam lists using Gladius in the 6E SM codex? Or did they get Codex:Gladius that long before it was published? Marines had a winning build in ObSec spam at the start of 7th Ed.

I don't think the kinds of marine lists were as strong as you think they are. Marines paying for everything was not that good in 6th. Invisible grav stars were.

Those examples were 7th, before the 7E SM book came out. They weren't getting free stuff. They were good.

I wouldn't harp about it so much, but there's so much denial that it even could happen. And it clearly did.

Not to the extent you are claiming, I think.

I could beat vanilla beat control lists with the old 5th ed BA codex. They weren't that good. As usual, they lacked killing power. Things go wrong when your opponents hang around and hang around and hang around.

It was good enough to win tournaments and regularly place well.

I know it's hard to believe, but it did actually happen.

Bharring wrote:
Insectum - this line of discussion is about (A) whether SM have been OP from time to time and (B) if their OP builds get remembered as frequently as Xeno OP builds. Gladius, along with Scatter Bike spam and Decurion, certainly died with 8th.

Slayer,
Read back further, then. Were the 2014 7th Ed obsec-spam lists using Gladius in the 6E SM codex? Or did they get Codex:Gladius that long before it was published? Marines had a winning build in ObSec spam at the start of 7th Ed.

Um Centurionstar was still a thing.

Bharring wrote:
It was good enough to win tournaments and regularly place well.

I know it's hard to believe, but it did actually happen.

Okay. Assuming that's true, that doesn't help much now. I can counter with 2nd ed easily if we want to play that game.

How does Centurianstar being a thing help a list without any Centurians win a tournament?

The denial certainly is strong. That's my point. Not that they're OP now, just that the complaints being present doesn't mean they're not OP.

The biggest mistake is assuming tournament results have anything to do with army power. Space marine armies that do well in tournaments are always something like "objective secured spam" or some other crap that is meaningless in your average pickup game where the marine player is just going to get tabled.

Unless you are talking about invisible superfriends or 5 stormravens/fireraptors. Space marines have never had an army that just annihilates you.

Centstar is still realy good for Vulkan Marines.

Bharring wrote:
How does Centurianstar being a thing help a list without any Centurians win a tournament?

The denial certainly is strong. That's my point. Not that they're OP now, just that the complaints being present doesn't mean they're not OP.

I never really understood cent star doing well...did they just manage to never play against a daemon army? which it automatically loses against?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
Centstar is still realy good for Vulkan Marines.

No it's not bro. DEV centurions are the most over-costed unit IN THE ENTIRE GAME.

Grav Bikers weren't "invisible superfriends or 5 stormravens/fireraptors".

GravCents worked even outside Invis Superfriends.

Razorbacks (Gladius or 8th Ed ACs), even with BIg G, weren't either.

This is what I'm getting at. People easily forget all the things SM have done well over the years.

Bharring wrote:
Grav Bikers weren't "invisible superfriends or 5 stormravens/fireraptors".

GravCents worked even outside Invis Superfriends.

Razorbacks (Gladius or 8th Ed ACs), even with BIg G, weren't either.

This is what I'm getting at. People easily forget all the things SM have done well over the years.

Grav bikers weren't that great - nothing compared to a scatter bike. These are just deflections from marine haters. The only thing that made a grav cannon great was the reroll wounds. More or less - because so many people play marines people will complain about the last time they lost to marines.

Gladius wasn't that great ether - just another version of objective secured spam that only does good in time limited games. Razorbacks and tactical squads - literally the worst units in the game - when you get one for free though they come out being about decent. It's not like a razorback from today which is actually a decent tank.

Big G? WTF did he ever do in 7th? What is he doing now in 8th now that every has a codex? He's losing and getting nerfed at the same time some how?

 kadeton wrote:

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
Yeah the idea of a tech priest (regardless of his station), bettering the accomplishments of the Emperor himself is rather baffling. The only argument I can think of is the Emperor saw his Legions could conquer worlds and decided that was good enough and stopped innovating (maybe he decided that one day he would need to get rid of them as he did with the Thunder Warriors and didn't want them to be too powerful so he built them handicapped). Then 40k rolls round and the galaxy is in a poor state and the Marine chapters can't turn the tide anymore so Cawl rolls out the Space Marine Space Marines. But the idea that he did something the Emperor couldn't somewhat destabilises the whole idea of the Emperor within the setting. Nevermind asking where he got all that gene-seed without any Chapters finding out and being furious...

I've come to terms with that, honestly. The Emperor created Thunder Warriors, then iterated the design to create Space Marines... then he died. There's nothing to say that Space Marines were the ideal, final version (other than Imperial Cult dogma!) - they clearly have plenty of flaws, and an arms race never really ends.

There's also the "handicapped" factor, as you say. The Emperor obviously created other processes for building post-human super-soldiers that are far superior to Space Marines - just look at the Custodes. Marines were deliberately limited in their capabilities, for whatever reason, and Cawl might simply lack the vision and broader understanding to see why those limitations were a good idea in the first place. He's unrestricted by any concerns except "Make them as powerful as you can", since he doesn't have to restrain or govern them afterwards.

Yeah as I say I suspected the Emperor built them handicapped to limit their potential should he need to remove them. I hadn't considered the Idea the Cawl was basically a child with a gun and doesn't have the scope to see why it's a bad idea. It actually makes enough sense to me that I don't mind their lore so much now. Thank you sir.

Grav Bikes were a thing before Scatter Bikes were - there was a period where they were a terror. Sure, Scatter Bikes outclassed them, but Grav Bikes really were a thing before the 7e CWE book.

It wsan't the reroll wounds. It was the relentless profile giving 3 shots for bikes, or 5 shots for Cents/Skyhammer Devs. Per model. That's a lot of shots for relatively little points.

People are fine losing to SM. It's one of the reasons all these times SM were top of the heap were so much less memorable than things like Riptide Wing or Decurion Wraiths. Factions that have been top dog a lot less, but much more memorably.

Gladius might have not been great, but if Tac spam was a viable tournament winner pre-codex in 7th, how could free Razorbacks on top of Tacs not be good?

And WTF with the 'literally the worst units in the game'. Are you trolling? Storm Guardians? Contemporary Rangers? Contemporary CSM? Contemporary Wyches?

Big G wasn't a comment about 7th. It was a comment that there actually *were* times, aside from 5 Ravens/Raptors or Superfriends, where SM were top dog. They really did happen.

Bharring wrote:
How does Centurianstar being a thing help a list without any Centurians win a tournament?

The denial certainly is strong. That's my point. Not that they're OP now, just that the complaints being present doesn't mean they're not OP.

The majority were Centurionstar is the point, even without the power they gained in 7th

Then why were there 3 Tac spam lists and 2 Biker spam lists in the top 10 of a 2014 tourny, but no Cent Stars?

My point is that recollection of all the things SM won with is very poor. Most don't seem to recall this.

Clearly, it happened. And clearly, there's a lot of denial going on.

Bharring wrote:
Then why were there 3 Tac spam lists and 2 Biker spam lists in the top 10 of a 2014 tourny, but no Cent Stars?

My point is that recollection of all the things SM won with is very poor. Most don't seem to recall this.

Clearly, it happened. And clearly, there's a lot of denial going on.

A Rubric Marine list topped in 6th at one point too. Why do you think nobody is defending the 6th edition Rubric Marine entry?

 Xenomancers wrote:


Gladius wasn't that great ether - just another version of objective secured spam that only does good in time limited games. Razorbacks and tactical squads - literally the worst units in the game - when you get one for free though they come out being about decent. It's not like a razorback from today which is actually a decent tank.

SM were by far the most overpowered army in 7th along with eldar. Gladius, skyhammer formation, grav spam, invisiblitiy.... several SM lists were extremely cheesy.

Even now SM are quite competitive, two of their chapters at least. And also BA and DA which have their own codex are solid mid tiers at least.

Bharring wrote:
Insectum - this line of discussion is about (A) whether SM have been OP from time to time and (B) if their OP builds get remembered as frequently as Xeno OP builds. Gladius, along with Scatter Bike spam and Decurion, certainly died with 8th.

I'm right there with ya, my comment was targeted at slayers lack of context. That was unclear though, my bad.

"A rubric marine list won some tournament at some point in 7E"

"The first 2014 7E tourny I found, half the top 10 were Marines..."

"The first major 7E tourny was won by Tac Spam..."

One of these things is not like the others. The first is just one of many occurrences. The second and third are specific questions asked and then looked up. Same concept of rolling a 3 is a 1/6 chance. Rolling a 3 then calculating the odds of getting a 3 is 100% chance.

Gravstar and bikestar both dominated for a long period time and won many major events. Bjarring I suggest you ignore SF123, he is a troll.

Welp I think you've all answered the OP. What's the status of "regular" Space Marines? ... good for a trip down Memory lane