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Mali wrote:
Time to feast once more on the sweet salty tears of "what do you mean SM isn't an auto win army"

Suck it up butter cup. 8th ed has been great to the SM players. Basically a whole new codex with in a codex (Primaris) return of Guilliman, a new transport.

DE we lost another chunk of our special characters. No new models. Oh and Ynarri got hit hard with the nerf bat.

Heck you even got a bunch of new sculpts. Half my Space elf armies are still metal.

So please tell me why you need to have the best everything and 4 times the number of models?

This is a discussion about how to beat the army with the best rules...The hobby aspect does not come into it at all. Nor does having more useless choices. DE have the best rules - by far.

You realize right that rather than 2+ save you want durability?

Bup yup. Easy to dismis valid critique when you have it good. Then when things gets reversed you would be the one complaining.

Oh and new codex as in primaris...whopedoo. if they aren't useful so what?

But as usual arrogant eldars with their codex advantages

Suck it up? I've been "sucking it up" since the Wardex in 5th. The crapiness of the basal marine trickles down to many lists. Some of which that have no access to Bobby G. My army also got screwed over because Nid players couldn't keep their hands off the "spam" button.

Marines haven't been autowin since 3rd. How many people in here even played 3rd? And even that didn't last once the starcannon was published. Even the gladius wasn't autowin. It was necessary.

Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

Martel732 wrote:
Suck it up? I've been "sucking it up" since the Wardex in 5th. The crapiness of the basal marine trickles down to many lists. Some of which that have no access to Bobby G. My army also got screwed over because Nid players couldn't keep their hands off the "spam" button.

Marines haven't been autowin since 3rd. How many people in here even played 3rd? And even that didn't last once the starcannon was published. Even the gladius wasn't autowin. It was necessary.

inb4 someone mentions bark star/super friends tournament winners.

 blackmage wrote:
Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

Its honestly really funny to watch people try and deny how friggin good this codex is. But the reason it is so good is less the rules that they have, and more that everything is pretty hilariously undercosted for what it brings to the table, with high quality ally options for those who want them.

Necrons, for example, are very solid, with many powerful options. But they aren't LOL 50 disintegrator shots powerful. Why people don't see the difference is mind boggling. I can cripple many necron lists with a couple key assaults that yield zero survivors. Drukhari are completely distributed and basically can ignore losses of any unit.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

Its honestly really funny to watch people try and deny how friggin good this codex is. But the reason it is so good is less the rules that they have, and more that everything is pretty hilariously undercosted for what it brings to the table, with high quality ally options for those who want them.

Well power from pain combined with their army traits is also over the top to. Power from pain is REALLY good. 6+FNP is increadible and that is just where it starts.
Basically no one talks about how OP prophets of the flesh is also. 4++ invos across the board? with Characters buffing str and toughness in auras? It's down right silly. A lot of it has to do with what they are paying for it. OFC it does. They do have some amazing rules to though.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

Its honestly really funny to watch people try and deny how friggin good this codex is. But the reason it is so good is less the rules that they have, and more that everything is pretty hilariously undercosted for what it brings to the table, with high quality ally options for those who want them.

It's not everything. I've seen zero complaints since the Codex about stuff like Hellions, Medusae, or Khymerae. Even Scourges.

There's definitely some stuff in the Dark Eldar Codex that I'd agree is undercosted, but most of it is genuinely fine. It's just not the stuff that you're seeing in competitive lists.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Suck it up? I've been "sucking it up" since the Wardex in 5th. The crapiness of the basal marine trickles down to many lists. Some of which that have no access to Bobby G. My army also got screwed over because Nid players couldn't keep their hands off the "spam" button.

Marines haven't been autowin since 3rd. How many people in here even played 3rd? And even that didn't last once the starcannon was published. Even the gladius wasn't autowin. It was necessary.

inb4 someone mentions bark star/super friends tournament winners.

Super friends list only won because it exploited the loopholes in the rules.

Great job keeping this thread focused on Drukhari, guys.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

Its honestly really funny to watch people try and deny how friggin good this codex is. But the reason it is so good is less the rules that they have, and more that everything is pretty hilariously undercosted for what it brings to the table, with high quality ally options for those who want them.

No, they have really strong counters, the reason they are winning tournaments is b.c players dont bring what works against DE, they or are to stubborn to try units consider "not S tier".

DE are winning b.c of 3 things, light Vehicles, heavy infantry, Counter to 1 trick pony stratagems. Guess what 3 things the meta had? 1 trick pony stratagems, light infantry and light infantry killing guns. OMG!!! You see that?!?! DE just counters the meta atm, start taking anti light vehicle weapons, anti heavy infantry, and dont relay on 1 stratagem but use many small stratagems.

Yes DE are strong, yes some nerfs are coming and thats fine (I play DE), but they are not the boogie man, they have hard counters, just use them.


For SM at least, start taking HB's, units like Stalkers, stop taking multi wounded infantry, heck Scouts and Tacs with HB's and Plasma works great, try a Thunderfire cannon even.

I think at their current price point, DE can only have soft counters. Even if you have the tools to do damage effectively, you just have so many targets to plow through.

Martel732 wrote:
I think at their current price point, DE can only have soft counters. Even if you have the tools to do damage effectively, you just have so many targets to plow through.

Hordes, Daemon and Ork Hordes win vs them
Mass S5-7 with 0 or 1 AP as well, Plasma, HB, etc..
My DE cant beat SoB lists, and i have lost to horde marines a few times (yes with Ravagers, Grots, etc..)

You can put 100+ SM on the table with HB's and Plasma, re-roll all and easily get 2+ cover on most units

If you are looking at tournaments for power levels, then thats stupid IMO, many have house rules, like "All ground floor is 100% LoS block" or "Get 1 VP if you kill a 10, 2 if kill a 20, 3 if kill a 30 man unit" these types of rules force weakness on many armies, weakness that DE are strong against.

Massing S5+ -1AP weapons are a good place to start against DE.

Unfortunately as Martel has brought up, these are hard to come by in efficient platforms. Much tax is needed to mass them.

 skchsan wrote:
Massing S5+ -1AP weapons are a good place to start against DE.

Unfortunately as Martel has brought up, these are hard to come by in efficient platforms. Much tax is needed to mass them.

Ally in SoB, 85pt HB units that can fit in Open top Rhinos, or take +5 bodies for more wounds, place in cover and Double fire every turn.

We have allies, use them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Massing S5+ -1AP weapons are a good place to start against DE.

Unfortunately as Martel has brought up, these are hard to come by in efficient platforms. Much tax is needed to mass them.

Ally in SoB, 85pt HB units that can fit in Open top Rhinos, or take +5 bodies for more wounds, place in cover and Double fire every turn.

We have allies, use them.

Well such list is terribly easy to theorize. Not so terribly effective IRL as envisioned however.

List tailor for Drukhari, so I can never kill a Russ ever again! Glorious. Russes are effiicent. Raiders are efficient. They require large amounts of opposite kinds of tools. Tools are expensive for marines.

Oh I'm sorry did i not say how much I'm enjoying my Current status on top and how i have been playing all flavors of Eldar since i started in Fifth. My apologizes.

Ill reiterate my advice just in case some people missed it through the tears.

I don't play coven units. Mainly i hate the look. that being said.
A) watch your placement because of turn one T5 bike charges which can tie you up early on.
B) DE are very mobile and can bring the appropriate firepower where it needs to be. Learn your target priority.
C) warriors don't need to move fast to accomplish there mission. which is usually to hose down stuff with massed poison shots.

D!!) We can offer suggestions to help but ultimately it goes back to Sun Tzu "Know they self and know thy enemy"

guys pointless talk about "counters" dont you think who goes to major tournaments aren't readt with "counters" for De? But they still win, they are undercosted and with powerful rules, is not just "counters", if you know you will be play against drukari you can bring your counters, but in tournaments you must build an overall working list. Anyway i hope De will not complain a lot when Gw axe will hit their "not so powerful and with hard counters" codex. Thank God i play nurgle demons so i can put a fight on them but for the rest?imho

 blackmage wrote:
guys pointless talk about "counters" dont you think who goes to major tournaments aren't readt with "counters" for De? But they still win, they are undercosted and with powerful rules, is not just "counters", if you know you will be play against drukari you can bring your counters, but in tournaments you must build an overall working list. Anyway i hope De will not complain a lot when Gw axe will hit their "not so powerful and with hard counters" codex. Thank God i play nurgle demons so i can put a fight on them but for the rest?imho

The problem with tournaments are they have house rules, we need to split a topic like this from local games and tournament games.

Tournaments normally dont last 5 or more turns, many have house rules that makes hordes harder to play, or no cover saves terrain, their own missions outsideof GW's 24, etc...

You cant say local games are struggling b.c tournaments are.

i said MAJOR tournaments, they dont have house rules they have rules played everywhere like ITC or ETC

"Suck it up buttercup"
—>
Proceeds to whine about model range, and then about the rules for the current No.1 army in the game.

After all the wineing. What 1 unit is the biggest problem. What does the OP need to neutralize? (What do you hope GeeDubs nerfs)

Real play experence. What was it how much did it kill how much of your fire power did it soak up. How long did it last?

I play a LOT of DE, its my main army, from my PoV with experience not bias.

Dis Cannons needs to be 20pts instead of 15pts
Grotesques needs to be +2pts

Thanks its


If Dis cannons go up 5pts (they are equal to DL vs tanks and better vs everything else) they will be more in line, this will make each Ravager 15pts more, when taking 3 thats 45pts more. This would also make RWJF's 145pts over 135pts, Raiders 85 over 80. Over all a 45-60pts change per army, meaning thats 1-2 less troops or 1 less venom

Grots just need a 2pts encrease b.c they are better than most units alike to them, but if you go to high then you will just see 100 Wracks or Warriors instead or more Talos, they are good yes but they are easily over nerf and then never playable again.


Venoms and Raiders dont need any changes, they seem good b.c people are winning with them, but its the other units that are doing a lot of the heavy lifting, Venom Spam if you look at the damage output is tiny, 1 Venoms vs 5+ save does either 1 kill or 2 kills, depending if within Rapid fire range or now (this is without re-rolls, with re-rolls of 1 your looking at 0.25/0.50 better wounds). They are very good at getting to places and locking up units in combat, taking objectives and getting a Troop close into damage range, but even then thats still 5/10 more poison shots.

If a dis cannon is only going to be 20 pts, a grav cannon needs to be 15 pts.


As it stands now, the dis cannon is a 30 pt weapon. It's better than any imperial heavy, including the missile launcher and lascannon.

Martel732 wrote:
If a dis cannon is only going to be 20 pts, a grav cannon needs to be 15 pts.


As it stands now, the dis cannon is a 30 pt weapon. It's better than any imperial heavy, including the missile launcher and lascannon.

It WAS 30pts and NO one played it b.c it was grossly over costed, its A3 S5 2D, not a 30pts weapon, 20 is reasonable.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Massing S5+ -1AP weapons are a good place to start against DE.

Unfortunately as Martel has brought up, these are hard to come by in efficient platforms. Much tax is needed to mass them.

Ally in SoB, 85pt HB units that can fit in Open top Rhinos, or take +5 bodies for more wounds, place in cover and Double fire every turn.

We have allies, use them.

Lol what?

What edition are we in? Open Top rhinos?

I got to discard your opinion on this matter if you don't even know the Rhino's failings.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact how did no one call you out on this? Much less saying, go play another faction which still isn't even a good answer as the solution.

Dis cannons to 20-25
Blasters +5
Ravagers, venoms, raiders +5-10
Grots +5
Agents of vect once per game? Game turn? (it's too good to be used every phase)
+10 points for the flyers (eldar as well Hunters and hemlocks)
Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal
No stacking the -1 to hit strat
Kabilites +1-2 points (maybe)
That character killing witch needs a bump too (10-15 points?)

Let's not compare anything to marines because it seems pretty well understood that they are broken. But I think the above would bring them from broken to competitive.

[edit:] sisters rhinos have firing ports (I forget what the proper name for them is)

 Quickjager wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Massing S5+ -1AP weapons are a good place to start against DE.

Unfortunately as Martel has brought up, these are hard to come by in efficient platforms. Much tax is needed to mass them.

Ally in SoB, 85pt HB units that can fit in Open top Rhinos, or take +5 bodies for more wounds, place in cover and Double fire every turn.

We have allies, use them.

Lol what?

What edition are we in? Open Top rhinos?

I got to discard your opinion on this matter if you don't even know the Rhino's failings.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact how did no one call you out on this? Much less saying, go play another faction which still isn't even a good answer as the solution.

Did you read the Repressor? It leaves out the part they cant shoot while in combat, and they are +2 wounds with an Invul.