Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

He doesn't get the CP, you just lose it.

He's talking about ability that gives cp on roll of 6 for each cp spent. You spend cp, he cancels it. He spends 3 cp for that and 1 per your cp spent(btw if he rolls 2-5 for strategem does he still roll those?) Getting cp for 6. I think

Ahh, that would make sense, didn't think of that.

WRT your other point, I wouldn't think you get to roll those dice on a 2-5, since your opponent didn't actually spend any CP.

Jackers wrote:
He doesn't get the CP, you just lose it.

I am Reading now 1d4chan web and I am assuming my DE rival was not fair. Because he did that. Now I have to think in how many things he did unfair. "Know your enemy". Have to learn more about DE, becuase will not be the last game against him.


In this case he got my CP. And then he also throws for his CP. Last time. This hapens because of my ignorance

Sometimes its malicious, often times its just a player being overzealous. They get excited about their codex, they read something wrong, get excited about it, then play it wrong. My rule of thumb is if something seems "too good to be true" I will ask to see the rule in my opponents book. They'll show it to me, and I can verify there if he is playing right. Its a common courtesy, and one I'll happily extend to any of my opponents if they want to see whatever rules I'm using.

IIRC Agents of Vect has in interesting timing with Labyrinth cunning. If my understanding is right the order of operations is as follows.

1) Player A declares stratagem and spends 2 CP.
1a) Player B uses Labyrinth Cunning and rolls 2 dice to steal CP.
2) Player B declares Agents of Vect
2b) Player B uses Labyrinth Cunning and rolls 3 dice to try to recover CP
3) Agents of Vect Resolves. Stratagem is cancelled and Player A is restored his 2 CP.

So in this situation, Player B will have spent 3 CP for Agents of Vect, and will have rolled 5 dice, gaining a CP on a 6.

Also note, that if Player A was playing Imperial Guard and had the Warlord Trait and Relic, he would also have been attempting to regain command points at all of the points Labyrinth cunning kicked in.

yeah I was wondering about the whole labyrinthian cunning agents of vect interaction, caused some debate at my lgs last weekend

Hmm, that is an interesting debate, since looking at it again your opponent does actually spend the CP, so I can definitely see an argument for rolling LC for it.
Looks like I have the subject for my next rules email to GW, haha.

It isn't that DE are OP or more durable/pts they just go about the game from a completely different direction compared to the abundance of Marine based armies.

But that's is the point of Xenos armies.

Personally for all the reasons that people claim DE are "Cheep/OP" and need the nerf hammer i apply to IG armies.

Honestly if i were playing IG id be more concerned about a turn 1 charge form the cult of red grief units. T5 bikers are guaranteed to do it and with a lucky roll/bad unit placement wytch can get to your front lines.

Just be prepared and read up on what DE can do.

yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

All is fair in love and war...

And in he far future there is only war....

Insert: Evil elven cackle:

massed mortars kill dark eldar.

Like look at pretty much any top ranking imperial soup. Note how many armies take a lot of heavy firepower? Not many. A lot of AT punch comes in with melee, and dark eldar are super vulnerable to that. Now you're not using any of the key soup ingredients (slam captains or shield captains), but dark eldar vehicles are a lot more vulnerable to the kind of massed firepower that guard can bring that a lot of other armies. Disintigrators are, of course, good, but against most competitive guard, not so much. It's the splinter weaponry that'll get you.

Mortars wounding their vehicles on 5s just as they would a pred or rhino.

Killings transports with melee is very inefficient. Plus, 75% of the firepower survives and your captain dies next turn.

Disintegrators are good vs t8, but fall off in efficiency vs the cheap artillery.

 blackmage wrote:
yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

Raiders are fine, Rhinos needs to cost 20pts less, Rhinos are the problem not other vehicles.

 blackmage wrote:
yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

When did Rhinos become the Gold Standard unit that everything else is compared to? They're overcosted and ineffective, they have been for a while. That wasn't caused by the DE codex. The Rhino is one of the (few) consistent flaws in the imperial soup buffet.

Martel732 wrote:
Mortars wounding their vehicles on 5s just as they would a pred or rhino.

Killings transports with melee is very inefficient. Plus, 75% of the firepower survives and your captain dies next turn.

Disintegrators are good vs t8, but fall off in efficiency vs the cheap artillery.

Lasguns wound them on 5s also, DE vehicles will evaporate if they ever get within rapid fire range of a Guard infantry blob.

FOrtunately for them, they can make the decision to never do that. Or make sure the blob is crippled after their shooting.

I'm honestly more concerned about Alaitoc flyer detachments than Drukhari. They can be a pain for marines, but with tyranids they are fair game.

If the definition of OP is "I can't beat it with pure marines" then 90% of this game is made of OP.

There are half a dozen models in the game that should get a look at by GW, and ravagers are one of these, but there is nothing really OP out there, the game is at it's greatest balance since many years. It's just that this time marines are the underdogs.

There have been threads about this, but marines have been underdogs PLENTY.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

Raiders are fine, Rhinos needs to cost 20pts less, Rhinos are the problem not other vehicles.

Exactly, pure transports should be way cheaper than now.

Anyway a rhino is 74 points with a tank profile, 4/8 S4 shots at BS3+ and can carry 10 models which are a lot in a SM list. I think it's 5-10 points overcosted at most, but the real problem is that many SM units are lackluster. A rhino in a chaos or sisters army is a decent option for the actual price.

Raiders at 80 points are fair.

Martel732 wrote:
There have been threads about this, but marines have been underdogs PLENTY.

No one likes it, in general the game is more healthy when the most played faction is the meter for balance. Right now the meta is harmed by the inefficency of elite models, which is in big part due to the marine situation. If just the tactical marines were a bit better, the meta would be completely different.

 blackmage wrote:
yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

Almost every single competitive DE list have 3 disintegrator Ravagers. A 5~8 points increasement would be seen in Chapter Approved 2018.

Also, GW are pushing Primaris models hard. Disintegrators murder, and humiliate Primaris. GW have enough motivation to nerf it...

Then again marines don't need rules to sell...

I still think once all codex are out, there will be a big CA. But no new SM codex.

Gw has been releasing codexes for decades. They are print me money buttons. Gw has not shown any sign of changing style. On the contrary on aos sigmarines are on 3rd.

There will be new ones. For marines, for all factions. But at least then won't need multtiple ca's and codexes to make a list.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
yes but... a ravager full disintegrators 125 pts? a raider with disintegrator 80 pts when a rhino with 2 mighty COMBI BOLTERS cost 74? if that points are fair then yes they aren't undercosted, peace out

When did Rhinos become the Gold Standard unit that everything else is compared to? They're overcosted and ineffective, they have been for a while. That wasn't caused by the DE codex. The Rhino is one of the (few) consistent flaws in the imperial soup buffet.

This! Rhinos have never been great. Drop pods though, those used to be amazing. They need to drop the price on Drop Pods, or make it so you can get within 6" of an enemy when you disembark. Dropping in flamer weapons would be devastating.

Anyway. What about other transports the space marines have?
Razorback
Landraider
Stormraven
Primaris Hover Tank
Forgeworld's list of various transports

The Dark Eldar only have 3 transports including Forgeworld
Raider
Venom
Tantalus

So yes, our main transport has to be more than just a rhino. It has to be a combination of several things. Space marines have a lot of tools at their disposal and you've got to pick the one that fits the rest of your list and use it to its full functionality.

Problem is the raider is better than all the marine transports. Marines do have a lot of models. That are all bad, except the razorback, which is middling. But still pure crap compared to a raider.

Rhinos have never been great in 8th yes. Neither drop pod though. If you include past editions though claiming rhino's have never been great is a lie though. Whole edition has been defined by them

Time to feast once more on the sweet salty tears of "what do you mean SM isn't an auto win army"

Suck it up butter cup. 8th ed has been great to the SM players. Basically a whole new codex with in a codex (Primaris) return of Guilliman, a new transport.

DE we lost another chunk of our special characters. No new models. Oh and Ynarri got hit hard with the nerf bat.

Heck you even got a bunch of new sculpts. Half my Space elf armies are still metal.

So please tell me why you need to have the best everything and 4 times the number of models?

Drukhari has the best everything right now. Best damage output, best durability per point.

Some body has to have Best durability per point.
Are you stating fact or complaining that it isn't in a SM codex.

Things ELdar(dark or light) don't Best at...
2+3++ saves.
Mixed arms in a single unit.
Infiltrate armies(RG or AL)

Things Druhkari cant do.
Psyker.

I know generic response to that is "oh just mix in Craftworlds" Some of us do play for Codex Pure. even play codex pure competitively.