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 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If a dis cannon is only going to be 20 pts, a grav cannon needs to be 15 pts.


As it stands now, the dis cannon is a 30 pt weapon. It's better than any imperial heavy, including the missile launcher and lascannon.

It WAS 30pts and NO one played it b.c it was grossly over costed, its A3 S5 2D, not a 30pts weapon, 20 is reasonable.

Somewhere around 25pts would be more fair. Look at Gravcannon which is 24" heavy 4 and same str and AP and average same dmg against sv3+, costing 28pts. The dis cannon one less shot is well balanced back by the longer range and assault type.

 blackmage wrote:
Is funny still players wont admit DE have something "more" than others, dont you see how many De making Top 8 at major tournaments since the day codex was released? did you see them before codex release? I dont think suddenly all De players became skilled playing them, sure they got bit too much power with codex, say no is just being blind, when Gw axe will slice some De units dont start complain then, i guess everyone wants a game where you can play not just deploy models, remove them and be wipped out, that's not funny.
Thank God we have rule of 3 or you ll see De lists with at least 6 ravagers

I disagree. Dark eldar players have always been particularly skilled at competitive levels since that army is not as easy to play as SM or Chaos. Now we have a solid codex but if DE performs at competitive levels is also thanks to those players that had to be skilled to use their favorite army in previous editions when dark eldar were an unfortgiving army and very hard to play against competitive opponents.

Even with this solid codex we must think very carefully about list building because we have way more limitations than other armies with three subfactions that can't be mixed in a single detachment unless we want to lose the obsessions' bonuses.

I honestly don't see this imbalance against tryanids, AM, eldar or chaos/imperium soups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If a dis cannon is only going to be 20 pts, a grav cannon needs to be 15 pts.


As it stands now, the dis cannon is a 30 pt weapon. It's better than any imperial heavy, including the missile launcher and lascannon.

It WAS 30pts and NO one played it b.c it was grossly over costed, its A3 S5 2D, not a 30pts weapon, 20 is reasonable.

Somewhere around 25pts would be more fair. Look at Gravcannon which is 24" heavy 4 and same str and AP and average same dmg against sv3+, costing 28pts. The dis cannon one less shot is well balanced back by the longer range and assault type.

25 points is the cost of a lascannon. So no, it wouldn't be fair.

A ravager that costs 5-10 points could be fair, the weapons are ok as they are.

bananathug wrote:
Dis cannons to 20-25
Blasters +5
Ravagers, venoms, raiders +5-10
Grots +5
Agents of vect once per game? Game turn? (it's too good to be used every phase)
+10 points for the flyers (eldar as well Hunters and hemlocks)
Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal
No stacking the -1 to hit strat
Kabilites +1-2 points (maybe)
That character killing witch needs a bump too (10-15 points?)

Why do I think you worked on the 7th edition DE codex?

 Blackie wrote:

I disagree. Dark eldar players have always been particularly skilled at competitive levels since that army is not as easy to play as SM or Chaos. Now we have a solid codex but if DE performs at competitive levels is also thanks to those players that had to be skilled to use their favorite army in previous editions when dark eldar were an unfortgiving army and very hard to play against competitive opponents.

Even with this solid codex we must think very carefully about list building because we have way more limitations than other armies with three subfactions that can't be mixed in a single detachment unless we want to lose the obsessions' bonuses.

I honestly don't see this imbalance against tryanids, AM, eldar or chaos/imperium soups.

The above argument, which essentially reads as "the Codex isn't broken, rather its just good and its the players are hardened veterans who learned the game on a razors edge, so you just need to git gud" is tired and old. This argument would have more merit if 40K was actually a difficult game, or if we pretend for a moment that competitive players (where balance matters most) aren't familiar with all of the armies and don't regularly change up armies to stay on the top of the competitive curve. Arguing that DE players are just "better" is arrogant and frankly not true. Especially in the age of the internet where you can access major tournament winning lists at the click of a button, alongside detailed explanations of how they work.

Don't get me wrong, there is some merit to it. I started Eldar at their low point in 5th Edition, and I played Bretonnia in 8th Edition Fantasy which basically required precision play and a bit of luck to get a win even at a casual level. I feel like it taught me important elements of the game faster, but lets not pretend I had better fundamentals because of it than somebody who played say, Ward Dex Grey Knights and traveled to tournaments. Just because somebody played Dark Eldar before doesn't make them a better player than somebody who started with space marines. And the number of posts where somebody says something along the lines of.

"hey y'all I just started playing Primarus from Dark Imerium, my buddy just started Drukhari! For some reason whenever we play I get tabled by turn two, what am I doing wrong???"

Dark Eldar may have been an unforgiving army in the past, but those days are over. To take your argument one step further, Space Marines are the unforgiving army today, and you need to learn to be a better player to win with them. Even by contrast Chaos benefits from a wide variety of amazing strategems, and one of the best psychic lores in the game to help them keep up. It also helps that the Chaos dex isn't bloated with Primarus units which currently aren't pulling their weight and draw people in with gorgeous new models. Starting with a weaker army may make you a better player if you stick with it. But that is a personal thing and does nothing to explain larger trends.

Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal /Cult/ Coven

I do think this makes sense - especially give its a standard restriction - there is no reason for our DE to ignore it.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal /Cult/ Coven

I do think this makes sense - especially give its a standard restriction - there is no reason for our DE to ignore it.

I'll support this the day DE HQs get access to Jetbikes and Wings.

Nobody thinks that SM are now represented likes a Faction that is loosing a War? I mean, they are fighting against the entire Galaxy. Being "weak" to play is likes they are now in the lore.

But, out of lore, GW is trying to equilibrate all factions. They will need a time. But if they now buff SM and nerf DE maybe they make things goes invert.

GW favourites are SM. For sure they will get a buff in the near future.

When I played against DE and knowed how much they weapons cost I was really surprised. Comparing to SM y was feeling they was very undercosted.

Now I ask something: Do you think once all Codex are out it will be a big CA?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal /Cult/ Coven

I do think this makes sense - especially give its a standard restriction - there is no reason for our DE to ignore it.

I'll support this the day DE HQs get access to Jetbikes and Wings.

Give characters the inquisition rule that they can ride in any DE transport. Seems fair with a laymans understanding of the codex. Does this open up any weird shenanigans? You know those dark eldar, they tricksie...

bananathug wrote:
Give characters the inquisition rule that they can ride in any DE transport. Seems fair with a laymans understanding of the codex. Does this open up any weird shenanigans? You know those dark eldar, they tricksie...

I mean, I'd still like wings and jetbikes...

But, yeah, that would be a reasonable compromise.


As far as I'm aware, you couldn't pull any shenanigans with it.

We Had an HQ on skyboard. but because no official model GW pulled his rules.

We also lost out Kabal Unique cause his model wasn't updated since 3rd and no one liked a Raider with 3 Heavy weapons. Poor Vect.

Mali wrote:
We Had an HQ on skyboard. but because no official model GW pulled his rules.

We also lost out Kabal Unique cause his model wasn't updated since 3rd and no one liked a Raider with 3 Heavy weapons. Poor Vect.

All I want is to put my Sucubus on a jet bike and give her the Vexiator Mask.

Martel732 wrote:
If a dis cannon is only going to be 20 pts, a grav cannon needs to be 15 pts.


As it stands now, the dis cannon is a 30 pt weapon. It's better than any imperial heavy, including the missile launcher and lascannon.

Yes, I agree.

If not less for the Grav cannon. Grav cannons and many other space marine weapons are overpriced.

We know how the dis cannon performs at 30pts because it was at 30pts before: spoiler altert, it was mathematically inefficient, just like the grav cannon.

Solution: Make sure both dis cannon and grav cannon don't work?

Why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:
Dis cannons to 20-25
Blasters +5 21 points for a blaster? Aren't melta guns 17?
Ravagers, venoms, raiders +5-10 Agree
Grots +5 Agree
Agents of vect once per game? Game turn? (it's too good to be used every phase) How many phases can you keep that up generally? Three? It costs 3CP per use...
+10 points for the flyers (eldar as well Hunters and hemlocks) Yeah, and let's bump all marine flyers up 10pts too because Stormravens were competitive at one point! oh wait, lets not do that, because blindly applying a nerf to a whole bunch of units as if they're identical is ridiculous.
Vehicles can only carry units of the same cabal We going to do the same to Guard, whose vehicles work exactly the same way? If so, then sure.
No stacking the -1 to hit strat You can't currently stack any strat... also, an absolute ton of factions can stack up to -2 to hit. Including Marines. Why is it only broken when DE do it?
Kabilites +1-2 points (maybe)
That character killing witch needs a bump too (10-15 points?) let's play "what did this guy lose to in his last game". Lelith is about as effective at killing characters as a Vindicare assassin. "Oh gak you have an INVULN save? And toughness FOUR?!? Curses, foiled again!"

Let's not compare anything to marines because it seems pretty well understood that they are broken. But I think the above would bring them from broken to competitive.

[edit:] sisters rhinos have firing ports (I forget what the proper name for them is)

We've gone from tips on how to beat DE to discussions as to whether they are overpowered... oh jeeze.

Anyway, I agree that negative to hit modifiers should be greatly reduced or capped at -1 to hit. Eldar being able to stack Lightning Reflexes with Alaitoc / Night Shields, and even further for CWE with Vectored Engines or Conceal from a Warlock. Its too much for the game and bs3 should not be able to be reduced to a 6+ to hit. I play Eldar, I agree that stacking modifiers to hit needs to go. For my army and other armies as well. I play Chaos, I should not be able to stack Alpha legion with Miasma for a -2 to hit.

Hit modifiers were poorly implemented in the game, and they are often too powerful to the point where if they are a choice they drown out any other meaningful option you could have had. Basically stacking the modifiers isn't broken when DE does it, its broken whenever anyone does it. Whether its Nurgle Alpha legion, CWE, etc. It makes the game less fun to play.

 akaean wrote:
We've gone from tips on how to beat DE to discussions as to whether they are overpowered... oh jeeze.


Hit modifiers were poorly implemented in the game, and they are often too powerful to the point where if they are a choice they drown out any other meaningful option you could have had. Basically stacking the modifiers isn't broken when DE does it, its broken whenever anyone does it. Whether its Nurgle Alpha legion, CWE, etc. It makes the game less fun to play.

No, they are needed ATM, b.c there is double shots and mass re-rolls all over the place, some armies can basically re-roll all hit and wound dice at all times, when you look at twin weapons getting double shots, and many of the D6 D3 weapons its gotten crazy.

There is only one way for vanilla marines to do it and it involves a very specific build (ultra-marine flyer plus tigarius) but if you want to remove that I'm all for it. DA can do it with their flyers + shroud but at least you can kill the shroud to get rid of it (which is a much more fair application IMHO but if that has to die to get rid of the invisastar part deux them I'm in)

-2 to hit are broken, -3 are insane. So either we get rid of the basic -1 to hit trait (which is really messy because so many people have it) or we get rid of the -2s and 3s.

I'm pretty sure vect was conceved when armies had much less cp (before the +5 for bats is my guess) rather than bump it to a price that you can't use (should go to 5 if cp for a bat went from 3 to 5) limit to once per turn.

I'm down to apply the same rule to guard as well.

The flyers are a problem with the stacking the negs to hit honestly (altoric flyers are a pox on the game). The DE ones may be a result of the weapons on them but that ravenwing with an invlun and similar shooting being 30-40 points cheaper seems like a problem to me.

And yeah, that witch is personal but she just seems so good against characters (she still 1 rounds most marine characters). Honestly probably an over-reaction but one of my buddies runs her and she ruins any human-like character she touches. Also, she kills better than a vindi and a vindi cost 105 so 95 for her doesn't seem like too bad of a deal but this could be colored by personal bias.

Melta gun is 17 points for 12" range, multi-melta is 27 for 24" range so it seems like its 10 points for 12" range or 5 points for 6" range? Call it +3 if that seems more fair?

Everyone agrees MM and Meltas are bad, they thought so since day one, comparing something balance to a MM and saying its to good is a terrible analogy, no one thinks MM are good. MM and MG needs a buff or points decrease.

Also about flyers? DE, they also dont get re-rolls or better hit modifiers like many other flyers do, no Strafe runs, no nothing, just straight shots, and the 5 invul? They always had that since day one this is nothing new, and its only a 5++, 99% the time they dont get their 4+ armor, so they always are basically a 5+ save with 10 wounds that degrades are 5 and 3 wounds, unlike many other flyers with 12 wounds or degrades at 5 and 2 wounds, they also dont have hover.

A Storm Talon is the closest thing to them and it is only 5pts more base (the guns are what is very costly on the ST), so for a 5pts difference the ST can Hover, Strafe runs, vs a 5++,thats pretty equal to me.

I'd rather see the ST get 15pts cheaper (the guns) MM and MG get better than nerf a few DE bits.

Yes a couple DE things needs to be nerf, 20pts DC and +3pt Grots for sure.

Sadly many things people are complaining about in here show just how unbalance profiles are to each other, regardless of the armies and hopefully GW can do some good balance changes.

 akaean wrote:
We've gone from tips on how to beat DE to discussions as to whether they are overpowered... oh jeeze.

Anyway, I agree that negative to hit modifiers should be greatly reduced or capped at -1 to hit. Eldar being able to stack Lightning Reflexes with Alaitoc / Night Shields, and even further for CWE with Vectored Engines or Conceal from a Warlock. Its too much for the game and bs3 should not be able to be reduced to a 6+ to hit. I play Eldar, I agree that stacking modifiers to hit needs to go. For my army and other armies as well. I play Chaos, I should not be able to stack Alpha legion with Miasma for a -2 to hit.

Hit modifiers were poorly implemented in the game, and they are often too powerful to the point where if they are a choice they drown out any other meaningful option you could have had. Basically stacking the modifiers isn't broken when DE does it, its broken whenever anyone does it. Whether its Nurgle Alpha legion, CWE, etc. It makes the game less fun to play.

It's not the stacking modifiers. It's the dissy cannon deleting the competition trivially. Every game.

It's hard to give tips when very few models are efficient vs DE.

 akaean wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

I disagree. Dark eldar players have always been particularly skilled at competitive levels since that army is not as easy to play as SM or Chaos. Now we have a solid codex but if DE performs at competitive levels is also thanks to those players that had to be skilled to use their favorite army in previous editions when dark eldar were an unfortgiving army and very hard to play against competitive opponents.

Even with this solid codex we must think very carefully about list building because we have way more limitations than other armies with three subfactions that can't be mixed in a single detachment unless we want to lose the obsessions' bonuses.

I honestly don't see this imbalance against tryanids, AM, eldar or chaos/imperium soups.

The above argument, which essentially reads as "the Codex isn't broken, rather its just good and its the players are hardened veterans who learned the game on a razors edge, so you just need to git gud" is tired and old. This argument would have more merit if 40K was actually a difficult game, or if we pretend for a moment that competitive players (where balance matters most) aren't familiar with all of the armies and don't regularly change up armies to stay on the top of the competitive curve. Arguing that DE players are just "better" is arrogant and frankly not true. Especially in the age of the internet where you can access major tournament winning lists at the click of a button, alongside detailed explanations of how they work.

Don't get me wrong, there is some merit to it. I started Eldar at their low point in 5th Edition, and I played Bretonnia in 8th Edition Fantasy which basically required precision play and a bit of luck to get a win even at a casual level. I feel like it taught me important elements of the game faster, but lets not pretend I had better fundamentals because of it than somebody who played say, Ward Dex Grey Knights and traveled to tournaments. Just because somebody played Dark Eldar before doesn't make them a better player than somebody who started with space marines. And the number of posts where somebody says something along the lines of.

"hey y'all I just started playing Primarus from Dark Imerium, my buddy just started Drukhari! For some reason whenever we play I get tabled by turn two, what am I doing wrong???"

Dark Eldar may have been an unforgiving army in the past, but those days are over. To take your argument one step further, Space Marines are the unforgiving army today, and you need to learn to be a better player to win with them. Even by contrast Chaos benefits from a wide variety of amazing strategems, and one of the best psychic lores in the game to help them keep up. It also helps that the Chaos dex isn't bloated with Primarus units which currently aren't pulling their weight and draw people in with gorgeous new models. Starting with a weaker army may make you a better player if you stick with it. But that is a personal thing and does nothing to explain larger trends.

Those days may be over but the drukhari codex was released not even 3 months ago. I seriously doubt that those strong drukhari lists are played by someone that just started the army because now they have a solid codex. It's not possible to buy, assemble, paint, learn the mechanics and combos and make experience with an army in only 2-3 months. Those competitive lists that many players are currently struggling with are mostly run by experienced players.

Yes now SM are tough to play at (very) competitive levels. In any casual or semi competitive meta at least a couple of chapters are doing well. I mean chapters from the SM codex, DA and BA are solid mid tiers.

Drukhari aren't overpowered at all. They aren't better than other 4-5 competitive armies. AM, eldar, tyranids, chaos and imperium soups are definitely at the same level if not better, probably also tau are there as well.

And between 10 obsessions only 3-4 are present in competitive games. Black Heart kabal, Red Grief wych cult with just 9 bikes and a succubus, and Prophets of Flesh coven, maybe also Flayed Skull kabal. Rather than points hikes I'd like some light nerf since I think a 2000 points drukhari army has the adequate number of models now and I don't want to play with fewer models: drukhari are NOT an elite army. I'd prefer grotesques with -1A and/or -1 to their invuln save and -2W raiders/ravagers than having them more expensive.

The dis cannon IMHO is too expensive at 20 points. Plasma guns are 13 points and can be spammed. To spam dis cannons you need tons of vehicles and pure shooting drukhari lists are not that competitive, you must need some assault oriented units among the wych cult or coven stuff.

As a DE player, here's my tips on beating the army.

The number one thing my opponents never seem to realize or capitalize on is that our vehicles are just as, if not more, effectively taken down by anti-infantry weaponry as opposed to anti-tank.

For instance, a Lascannon firing at a Raider will do an average of 1.04 damage. Really sucks, right? That's because a Raider doesn't have the defensive statline of a vehicle, and you shouldn't treat it as if it does. T5 and a 4+ save? Sounds more like a plague marine, and you should treat it as such. Consider this instead. 10 Bolter shots at the same Raider will do 1.11 damage. Not a huge boost, but the take away is don't be afraid to shoot anti-infantry weapons at transports.

The antithesis of a DE player is low AP high Rate of Fire weaponry in the S6-7 Range. For Space Marines, consider bringing back the Assault Cannon Razorback against DE with the Primarch Backup. One of those will deal 5.34 damage to a Venom, with just a bit of luck you'll be taking down a Venom per turn per Razorback! For Guard, don't bother with plasma. Please don't. I don't even bother shooting at plasma squads anymore, even with orders the unit implodes before I get the chance. What you do want to spam is Hydras, Hellhounds, and Heavy Flamers. You've got a crap Ballistic Skill, and our main defense against you is having you miss entirely, take that out of the equation.

Aside from that, these are the priority targets/tips for each subfaction.
Kabal: Kill their transports, kill their offensive potential. Blasters can be dangerous, but Kabalites will buckle like tissue paper under even the weakest fire. Ravagers, as it should go without saying, should always be your top priority. Icarus Autocannons are the utter bane of their existence.

Cult: Reavers are scary in first turn charges, but as long as you keep your important units bubble wrapped, you should be fine, their melee is piddling at best. Beware Wyches. They're probably going to deepstrike mid-game, they're going to wreck face when they do. Just have a sacrificial unit ready for them to chew through and turn them into mincemeat when they kill it. They have an invuln, but it's a 6+ and their only save. Lasguns tear through these things.

Coven: Chaff Chaff and more Chaff. They hit hard, but not all that often, and every wound against them hurts. I wouldn't count on killing these things as theyre designed to be nigh unkillable, but again, Assault Cannons and Autocannons are your best bet against them.

As for nerfs, I won't speak on many of them, but a boost in points for the Blaster? For God's sake why? It's the same price as a Meltagun, has the same stats as a Meltagun, the only difference from it and a Meltagun are 6" of range and a loss of the Melta rule! What's so overpowered about that?

You assume every army is painted. Or painted by player and not say someone else(painting services are very common for hard core tournament players) or bought painted 2nd hand(and saving money to boot).

And when you read actual competive players battle reports you can notice they actually can learn the ropes rather quickly. As he said 40k isn't super complex game. It's not nobel science so competive player who plays several games a week does not require months to learn army.

BTW plasma gun isn't 36" assault 3...To get even 2/3 of shots they need to be within 12" so basically never on turn 1 and not even quaranteed T2. And disintegrator doesnt' blow in their face.

TheBaconPope wrote:
As a DE player, here's my tips on beating the army.

The number one thing my opponents never seem to realize or capitalize on is that our vehicles are just as, if not more, effectively taken down by anti-infantry weaponry as opposed to anti-tank.

Yes, in fact yes. But with their speed probably you will not achieve a cc against their vehicles. They will deploy and run away. Then you will realise that you will continue shooting -1 to hit. Yes DE vehicles has low T and gives you the chance that your few hits can wound. In my matches against DE I had lots of problems for shoot a Venom, it was -2 to hit. Mi techmarine charged and destroyed him, but after two round of plenty shooting from my intercessor squad, scouds and one tactical. All shooting only two wounds. Yes, I do more wound in cc against the Venom that shooting.

I think playing against DE the main problem is they FLY. You have to fill anti-air in your army.

 Blackie wrote:
The dis cannon IMHO is too expensive at 20 points. Plasma guns are 13 points and can be spammed. To spam dis cannons you need tons of vehicles and pure shooting drukhari lists are not that competitive, you must need some assault oriented units among the wych cult or coven stuff.

Pure shooting lists seems like one of the more competitive ways to run DE currently, honestly. Venom spam with Ravagers is pretty solid.

Heavy bolters, autocannon and butcher cannon fire seem to be good against their vehicles. I haven't figured out grots yet. They are very powerful, and the local DE player uses a blob of 10. That's a ton of wounds to chew through.

I used my knight last night, Icarus avenger, melta and sword. It was pretty good, up until I got close enough to charge. He didn't like that an was promptly deleted via dis cannons. Rotate ion shields wiffed hard. So it wasn't entirely dis cannons, but 6 of those and 4 blasters hits hard.

 chimeara wrote:
Heavy bolters, autocannon and butcher cannon fire seem to be good against their vehicles. I haven't figured out grots yet. They are very powerful, and the local DE player uses a blob of 10. That's a ton of wounds to chew through.

I used my knight last night, Icarus avenger, melta and sword. It was pretty good, up until I got close enough to charge. He didn't like that an was promptly deleted via dis cannons. Rotate ion shields wiffed hard. So it wasn't entirely dis cannons, but 6 of those and 4 blasters hits hard.

If you are willing to risk a Librarian, Null Zone will destroy Grotesques.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Heavy bolters, autocannon and butcher cannon fire seem to be good against their vehicles. I haven't figured out grots yet. They are very powerful, and the local DE player uses a blob of 10. That's a ton of wounds to chew through.

I used my knight last night, Icarus avenger, melta and sword. It was pretty good, up until I got close enough to charge. He didn't like that an was promptly deleted via dis cannons. Rotate ion shields wiffed hard. So it wasn't entirely dis cannons, but 6 of those and 4 blasters hits hard.

If you are willing to risk a Librarian, Null Zone will destroy Grotesques.

As Chaos I get Death Hex, but that's about it. Unfortunately it only targets single models.

we have 2 Drukhari players at my lgs, one is pure coven and the other (me) is pure kabal, could be that I don't get as much complaint because the other dude gets it al lol , he typically rolls really well on saves and it frustrates people to no end.

my last game was against the new knights, had something like 110 wounds on vehicles including 3 flyers, but was wiped in turn 3, not having any of those haywire weapons really hurt me there...

on the other hand the coven player played against them with 9 talos with haywire and wiped the knight player in turn 2...

I will second that things in the 5-7 STR range (5 is good, 6 is best, 7 starts to lose a lot of volume) make Dark Eldar players cringe. Heavy Bolters, Hellhounds, Heavy Flamers, things that are just massive volume with little to no AP. Most of there stuff tends to not care much after -1 AP. Even lasguns and boltguns in sufficient numbers can make them pucker a bit.

This of course does not translate down to the fliers, but the flamers still work nicely against them if they stray too close.

Between invulnerable saves and Feel No Pain rules... you just have to make them roll the dice and fail saves.

 Alexonian wrote:
we have 2 Drukhari players at my lgs, one is pure coven and the other (me) is pure kabal, could be that I don't get as much complaint because the other dude gets it al lol , he typically rolls really well on saves and it frustrates people to no end.

my last game was against the new knights, had something like 110 wounds on vehicles including 3 flyers, but was wiped in turn 3, not having any of those haywire weapons really hurt me there...

on the other hand the coven player played against them with 9 talos with haywire and wiped the knight player in turn 2...

Who the hell has 9 talos?

Actually thats (half) a list I would want to run. Talos and Reavers. A hard point and a mess of stupid fast bikes.

Headlss wrote:

 Alexonian wrote:
we have 2 Drukhari players at my lgs, one is pure coven and the other (me) is pure kabal, could be that I don't get as much complaint because the other dude gets it al lol , he typically rolls really well on saves and it frustrates people to no end.

my last game was against the new knights, had something like 110 wounds on vehicles including 3 flyers, but was wiped in turn 3, not having any of those haywire weapons really hurt me there...

on the other hand the coven player played against them with 9 talos with haywire and wiped the knight player in turn 2...

Who the hell has 9 talos?

Actually thats (half) a list I would want to run. Talos and Reavers. A hard point and a mess of stupid fast bikes.

I have 6 and 3 Cronos

A marine captain has T4, W5, 3+ and an iron halo giving 4++.

On average lelith hesperax (assuming Strength boost, which you almost always use on her) deals 2.18 damage to that captain with her penetrating blades and .5 damage with her hair. Amusingly, if that captain has a Thunderhammer, as captains often do, he hits her back for exactly .1 less damage on average.


A vindicare assassin only does 1.83 damage to that guy but he does it from 60" range, and the captain doesn't then get to punch back.

An eversor assassin does 2.96 damage to a marine captain with melee and 1.25 with shooting, actually coming decently close to being able to one-round him on average.

Yep, definitely making a great case for yourself as an impartial judge of balance."nerf that thing cus my buddy runs it and it makes me feel sad."