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Skaorn wrote:
Wow, I missed a lot.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Dark Angels Hellblasters are pretty strong. Not sure if broken (probably not) but they're good.

Even if they are, I think the brokenness would come from the combo and not the unit, unless hellblasters were broken to begin with.

True. It's WFtDA that really makes them strong, in my mind.

Although Hellblasters of any stripe are a solid unit.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Skaorn wrote:
Wow, I missed a lot.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Dark Angels Hellblasters are pretty strong. Not sure if broken (probably not) but they're good.

Even if they are, I think the brokenness would come from the combo and not the unit, unless hellblasters were broken to begin with.

True. It's WFtDA that really makes them strong, in my mind.

Although Hellblasters of any stripe are a solid unit.

I just saw a player using DA inceptors with plasma exterminators and WFtDA. They really looked strong - much better than hellblasters imo due to their deep-strike ability.

beir wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Skaorn wrote:
Wow, I missed a lot.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Dark Angels Hellblasters are pretty strong. Not sure if broken (probably not) but they're good.

Even if they are, I think the brokenness would come from the combo and not the unit, unless hellblasters were broken to begin with.

True. It's WFtDA that really makes them strong, in my mind.

Although Hellblasters of any stripe are a solid unit.

I just saw a player using DA inceptors with plasma exterminators and WFtDA. They really looked strong - much better than hellblasters imo due to their deep-strike ability.

They're brilliant! Statistically they kill a Daemon Prince in one turn, from deep strike, if they use the strat. That's a minimum squad, so less points than a kitted Prince too.

But still, not broken. There are stronger combos still!

Hellblasters are far too easy to kill to be considered broken. Even BA FNP hellblasters are super weak defensively.

Martel732 wrote:
Hellblasters are far too easy to kill to be considered broken. Even BA FNP hellblasters are super weak defensively.

Like Dark Reapers!

Well, Hellbalsters definitely are one of the best marine units and DA ones are even better, but they're still far from broken. Marines are poor enough that even their best units are merely OK.

My problem with hellblasters is that there is a lot of negative to hit modifiers which really hurt them and once tied up in combat they are in for a bad time.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
My problem with hellblasters is that there is a lot of negative to hit modifiers which really hurt them and once tied up in combat they are in for a bad time.

They also suffer from poor range.

Martel732 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
My problem with hellblasters is that there is a lot of negative to hit modifiers which really hurt them and once tied up in combat they are in for a bad time.

They also suffer from poor range.

I wouldn't say their range is bad per say. 30 inches is not awful, but to really get their points worth you want to be in happy hour range which is very dangerous considering all the nasty things that can charge them.

Their real range is 15", as their firepower/pt is woeful out at 30".

Martel732 wrote:
Their real range is 15", as their firepower/pt is woeful out at 30".

Like most Primaris units they're much happier in Deathwatch where you can deepstrike them for 1CP.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Their real range is 15", as their firepower/pt is woeful out at 30".

Like most Primaris units they're much happier in Deathwatch where you can deepstrike them for 1CP.

No arguments here. Although stuffing 10 hellblasters plus their babysitter into DS eats up the PL pretty quickly.

10 Grandmasters in dreadknights.

Nah its a strategem.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
My problem with hellblasters is that there is a lot of negative to hit modifiers which really hurt them and once tied up in combat they are in for a bad time.

They also suffer from poor range.

I wouldn't say their range is bad per say. 30 inches is not awful, but to really get their points worth you want to be in happy hour range which is very dangerous considering all the nasty things that can charge them.

The best comparison for me is Las devastators. I feel for a lot of lists you are choosing between one of the other. Obviously Devs do better against vehicles and monsters, and Hellblasters do better against elite infantry - but they can also threaten vehicles and monsters especially in DA with the strat.

Other than that, the main difference is range Vs mobility. For me that makes Devs better proactively, and Hellblasters better reactively (unless you are Raven Guard of course, then you can shove them in your opponent's face first turn!).

It's easier to neuter devestators by playing the terrain, but that's much harder to do against Hellblasters.

Which is better will depend a lot on who you are facing and what the wider game plan is for your army.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hellblasters are far too easy to kill to be considered broken. Even BA FNP hellblasters are super weak defensively.

Like Dark Reapers!

Whether or not a unit is durable or not is a function of many things, including effective range. A 48" range makes a T3 3+ far more durable, because they can more effectively camp in ruins in the corner of the map and do their thing. Also, you need to factor in how difficult it is to close on them. Compared to Hellblasters, Auspex Scan has a 12" range, meanwhile Forewarned is within Line of Sight, up to 48". Finally, those reapers will be 2+ with a minus to hit, while the hellblasters will be out in the open, no minus. Lastly, when you start factoring in the buffs that these units can receive, the advantage goes to the Dark Reapers. If you really think they're going to be shot, even if you aren't aware of Fire and Fade, you have Fortune.

But I assume you knew all of this...

"But I assume you knew all of this..."

Actually, I doubt it, really.

A leviathan dread of either flavor is basically GG for hellblasters. Given how common those things are now, hellblasters are a MASSIVE risk. 4 of my last 7 games had a leviathan. The other 3 were Drukhari.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hellblasters are far too easy to kill to be considered broken. Even BA FNP hellblasters are super weak defensively.

Like Dark Reapers!

Whether or not a unit is durable or not is a function of many things, including effective range. A 48" range makes a T3 3+ far more durable, because they can more effectively camp in ruins in the corner of the map and do their thing. Also, you need to factor in how difficult it is to close on them. Compared to Hellblasters, Auspex Scan has a 12" range, meanwhile Forewarned is within Line of Sight, up to 48". Finally, those reapers will be 2+ with a minus to hit, while the hellblasters will be out in the open, no minus. Lastly, when you start factoring in the buffs that these units can receive, the advantage goes to the Dark Reapers. If you really think they're going to be shot, even if you aren't aware of Fire and Fade, you have Fortune.

But I assume you knew all of this...

Yes. . . Though I wonder why the Hellblasters are either out in the open, or not being selectively LOS blocked by armor or something if it's going to be an issue. Also, why no minus to hit? If you're gonna call Alaitoc why wouldnt you assume RG on the Hellblasters?

We did determine in the other thread that the contents of a Drop Pod can't be Forewarned against, so there's that. Or a big Jorm Gant drop can just soak all the fire without much trouble. At the end of the day they're still only T3 1W 3+ models. There's a limit to how tough they can be. The low T and single wound in particular makes them much more vulnerable to small arms than Hellblasters.

They're out in the open because in order to get within range they must be exposed. There is not terrain providing cover wherein they can take shelter without massively limiting their scope. I am speaking with the standard tournament terrain setup in mind. If you have a whole city on your gaming table then their value might change, as would the value of assault units in general. But in a competitive setting if the Hellblasters are in range they aren't in cover. Or, they're in cover, and their scope is severely limited. And when you start splitting your army up you find yourself pretty vulnerable. Are you going to really alpha deploy Hellblasters and let them get annihilated? They better make their points back that turn, and then some. I'm assuming you'd land a captain with them at least, increasing their cost and taking that buff away from the rest of the army...

Hellblasters cannot ride in a drop pod. You have very few limited options to deep strike them. Raven Guard, but this is heavily dependent on first turn, Deathwatch, the best way, and Space Wolves, with Outflank. Am I missing anything? These 3 ways to get Hellblasters into range. Dark Reapers can deepstrike for 1 cp. And when they do they hit on 3s. So if you think that squad of 10 reapers is dying turn 1 if they go second, you're wrong.

Dark Reapers are far less vulnerable to small arms because they are never exposed to small arms. And if they are, they are always in cover, because it's not hard to put 48" range models in ruins.

The second we start talking synergy of their relative armies, the Dark Reapers get even better, because they have more easily applied buffs (Guide, Fortune) and have better units supporting them (Kabalite Venoms, Hemlocks, etc).

The way to defeat reapers isn't small arms, it's with indirect fire, ideally ignoring cover. Because outside of the Exarch they're not shooting unless they have line of sight, and while they do see almost the entirety of the board, they can't see through walls.

And I didn't assume Raven Guard because Raven Guard are not the competitive way to run marines. Losing Guilliman for a pathetic boost that only affects infantry and walkers with a -1 isn't worth it. Eldar get -1 on EVERYTHING, which is why Alaitoc is always assumed. The second Raven Guard buff affects all units including flyers, etc, i'll assume Raven Guard.

Honestly, with how pricey Bobby G. is, I wouldn't call playing Ravenguard handicapping yourself.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Honestly, with how pricey Bobby G. is, I wouldn't call playing Ravenguard handicapping yourself.

And you would be wrong, but that's your prerogative.

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Honestly, with how pricey Bobby G. is, I wouldn't call playing Ravenguard handicapping yourself.

And you would be wrong, but that's your prerogative.

Okay, so for 400 points, you get full rerolls to-hit and wound, and 3 CP (if the G-Man is your Warlord).

A Captain is around, what? 100 Points? (I don't own the Space Marine Dex, so correct any of these numbers if I'm wrong.)
A Lieutenant is 60 or so.
Three scout squads are 165.

So, for 75 points less, you get almost the same rerolls (all to-hit and 1s to-wound), 2 CP instead of three, and seventeen times the bodies.

I'm not going to say that adding a Primarch is a BAD move. He's still not bad, even at 400 points. But he's certainly pricey enough that other options are perfectly viable.

Based off the results at BAO, guard cp battery, shooting Knights, then CqC knights, then chaos knights, then guard CP battery, then captain slammy, then custode bikes...

GW really needs to kill that guard CP battery quickly. It's hard to balance anything else while that is giving armies 20+ CP to play with...

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Honestly, with how pricey Bobby G. is, I wouldn't call playing Ravenguard handicapping yourself.

And you would be wrong, but that's your prerogative.

Okay, so for 400 points, you get full rerolls to-hit and wound, and 3 CP (if the G-Man is your Warlord).

A Captain is around, what? 100 Points? (I don't own the Space Marine Dex, so correct any of these numbers if I'm wrong.)
A Lieutenant is 60 or so.
Three scout squads are 165.

So, for 75 points less, you get almost the same rerolls (all to-hit and 1s to-wound), 2 CP instead of three, and seventeen times the bodies.

I'm not going to say that adding a Primarch is a BAD move. He's still not bad, even at 400 points. But he's certainly pricey enough that other options are perfectly viable.

I understand where you're coming from with this analysis. We discussed it at length in another thread, and essentially Guilliman works out to be a pretty significant boost in overall shooting efficiency. A captain and a lieutenant would provide full hit & 1s to wound if you make the captain a chapter master, for the cost of 3CP. It's worth it, and a no-brainer I agree, but that is a swing of 3cp. The challenge is that rerolling all wounds vs 1s to wound at minimum is a 33% boost in efficiency (wounding on 4s or 3s). As we discussed in the other thread, the true power of this is to stack strength 5& 6 shooting which comes in volumes, Guilliman pulls away significantly in this regard.

If the Raven Guard tactics applied to everything, I would agree. But they don't. They only apply to the stuff that isn't very good. The best way to run RG (IMHO) is with Hellfire + Krakk detachments, as they're not rolling to wound, and rerolling 1s to hit is enough as you have a Signum. It has its place maybe if you're trying to be hyper efficient and implement that one specific build. If you're interested in aggressors just make a kill team and deep strike it.


And as far as Imperial Guard goes, their infantry and HQs have been brokenly inexpensive since the launch of 8th. Nerfing the ability to get CP doesn't change the fact that they have 30 point HQs and 4 point troops with a decent gun and a 5+ save... Guardsmen should be 7 points, and Conscripts should be 5. ITC also needs to wise up and make Guardsmen squads give up reaper points.

 Marmatag wrote:
They're out in the open because in order to get within range they must be exposed. There is not terrain providing cover wherein they can take shelter without massively limiting their scope. I am speaking with the standard tournament terrain setup in mind. If you have a whole city on your gaming table then their value might change, as would the value of assault units in general. But in a competitive setting if the Hellblasters are in range they aren't in cover. Or, they're in cover, and their scope is severely limited. And when you start splitting your army up you find yourself pretty vulnerable. Are you going to really alpha deploy Hellblasters and let them get annihilated? They better make their points back that turn, and then some. I'm assuming you'd land a captain with them at least, increasing their cost and taking that buff away from the rest of the army...

Hellblasters cannot ride in a drop pod. You have very few limited options to deep strike them. Raven Guard, but this is heavily dependent on first turn, Deathwatch, the best way, and Space Wolves, with Outflank. Am I missing anything? These 3 ways to get Hellblasters into range. Dark Reapers can deepstrike for 1 cp. And when they do they hit on 3s. So if you think that squad of 10 reapers is dying turn 1 if they go second, you're wrong.

Dark Reapers are far less vulnerable to small arms because they are never exposed to small arms. And if they are, they are always in cover, because it's not hard to put 48" range models in ruins.

The second we start talking synergy of their relative armies, the Dark Reapers get even better, because they have more easily applied buffs (Guide, Fortune) and have better units supporting them (Kabalite Venoms, Hemlocks, etc).

The way to defeat reapers isn't small arms, it's with indirect fire, ideally ignoring cover. Because outside of the Exarch they're not shooting unless they have line of sight, and while they do see almost the entirety of the board, they can't see through walls.

And I didn't assume Raven Guard because Raven Guard are not the competitive way to run marines. Losing Guilliman for a pathetic boost that only affects infantry and walkers with a -1 isn't worth it. Eldar get -1 on EVERYTHING, which is why Alaitoc is always assumed. The second Raven Guard buff affects all units including flyers, etc, i'll assume Raven Guard.

That is a whole pile of assumptions there. No useful terrain, no other units in drop pods, no possibility of ignoring cover, no RG tactics... etc. There's little point arguing if you're going to make so many assumptions.

A lot of indirect fire weapons are also only 1W, making the Dark Reapers more vulnerable again. T3 1W. Find them with any weapon. Tunnelling Devouerer Gaunts could do it, and are scaleable with buffs. I like Drop Grav with marines, but I'm sure theres a number of ways to approach it.


In other news I'm excited to say that we may have a new eldar soup player in my area, so I'll get to see firsthand what all the whining is about. I saw Reapers, lots of Shining Spears, Cat Lady, Ravagers, Rangers, etc.

 Marmatag wrote:

And as far as Imperial Guard goes, their infantry and HQs have been brokenly inexpensive since the launch of 8th. Nerfing the ability to get CP doesn't change the fact that they have 30 point HQs and 4 point troops with a decent gun and a 5+ save... Guardsmen should be 7 points, and Conscripts should be 5. ITC also needs to wise up and make Guardsmen squads give up reaper points.

I actually thought you had a good post going here until you claimed that Guardsman should be 7 points and Conscripts 5. Conscripts are almost universally recognized as terrible currently, with only extremely limited uses, and Guardsman at most need to be 5 points. At 7 points per model, I assume we would bump the already-pretty-bad Veterans to 9 points each and make sure they are never seen on a table ever again?

Just because you disagree with one part of the post does not make it a bad post. Guardsmen should be at minimum 5 pts. Although Kabalites coming in at 6 pts presents a lot of problems. I think Kabalites are more like an 8 pt model atm.

I could see guardsmen being 5, but at 6 points they are the same as boyz and I think I would easily rather have a boy over a guardsman at the same points cost, especially if you change orders as well. Point is at 6 points they go from really really good to bad for their cost. I think 5 is the sweet spot

 Marmatag wrote:

And as far as Imperial Guard goes, their infantry and HQs have been brokenly inexpensive since the launch of 8th. Nerfing the ability to get CP doesn't change the fact that they have 30 point HQs and 4 point troops with a decent gun and a 5+ save... Guardsmen should be 7 points, and Conscripts should be 5. ITC also needs to wise up and make Guardsmen squads give up reaper points.

Guardsmen at 7 points need to have a 4+ save, Lasguns need either range increased or an AP value assigned to them, and Sergeants need to be able to issue Orders.

The "brokenly inexpensive" part of Guard infantry is because the infantry can die in fricking droves provided someone is willing to commit the firepower to it. I'm sorry that people are still having issues with them, really I am--but stop trying to treat them as you did before. Guardsmen get to have saves now.

Too many saves for a 4 pt model.

Martel732 wrote:
Too many saves for a 4 pt model.

...How many saves do you think they're getting? You know they don't come with an Invulnerable or FNP styled save, right?