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ShredderShards wrote: Only thing I don't understand is if this is some sort of satire, or if he genuinely struggles so hard that they believe this garbage. 5pt Guardsmen "cease to be an option"? But Neophytes and Hormagants for example both still see play at that price point?
Show me in the Genestealer Cultist list where there's a unit basically the same as the Neophytes that is the same points cost but gains a better payout from a GSC buff.
That's the difference between Guardsmen and Conscripts. Conscripts are a 50/50 shot to be Ordered but when given FRSRF, they get a significantly higher shot output compared to even a barebones Infantry Squad(which gets 90% effectiveness, thanks to the Sergeant being mandated to not have a Lasgun).
Wait so your argument is that they won't see play, because you have another very strong infantry unit in the dex ready to take their place? How's that any different to how it is now? Of the two units, each is going to do a specific role better most the time? And this way they are no longer so ridiculous external from the dex?
And others have pointed out Guardsmen will still have roles anyway, so this is preferable in multiple ways to how it is now.
Kanluwen wrote:
The role of Guardsmen is to be the mainstay infantry unit in the Guard's army list. Guardsmen make up the Special Weapon Squads(that nobody really takes) and Heavy Weapon Squads(ditto).
Conscripts' role is to flood the field with bodies.
Scions' role is to operate upfield from the gunline and go after harder targets.
Veterans' role is to be flexible in what they bring.
Oh sorry, did you think their role was just to sit there and Lasgun things? Maybe to generate Command Points for Marine armies? Meatshields for tanks+artillery?
Nope. They have a role and they're unable to perform it as it stands--without a significant overhaul to the army, them being 4pts is the only way it really works.
You literally said you'd be happy at them being 5 pts with a 4+ save. That means they shrug off las fire like nothing. It takes 4 autogun/las hits, usually at BS4 making it 8 shots, to kill a single guardsmen with those numbers. That is NOT an infantry unit balanced for this game. That's ridiculously durable for a unit the price of a Hormagant, that can be spammed and given buffs.
ShredderShards wrote: Only thing I don't understand is if this is some sort of satire, or if he genuinely struggles so hard that they believe this garbage. 5pt Guardsmen "cease to be an option"? But Neophytes and Hormagants for example both still see play at that price point?
Show me in the Genestealer Cultist list where there's a unit basically the same as the Neophytes that is the same points cost but gains a better payout from a GSC buff.
That's the difference between Guardsmen and Conscripts. Conscripts are a 50/50 shot to be Ordered but when given FRSRF, they get a significantly higher shot output compared to even a barebones Infantry Squad(which gets 90% effectiveness, thanks to the Sergeant being mandated to not have a Lasgun).
Wait so your argument is that they won't see play, because you have another very strong infantry unit in the dex ready to take their place? How's that any different to how it is now? Of the two units, each is going to do a specific role better most the time? And this way they are no longer so ridiculous external from the dex?
And others have pointed out Guardsmen will still have roles anyway, so this is preferable in multiple ways to how it is now.
Kanluwen wrote:
The role of Guardsmen is to be the mainstay infantry unit in the Guard's army list. Guardsmen make up the Special Weapon Squads(that nobody really takes) and Heavy Weapon Squads(ditto).
Conscripts' role is to flood the field with bodies.
Scions' role is to operate upfield from the gunline and go after harder targets.
Veterans' role is to be flexible in what they bring.
Oh sorry, did you think their role was just to sit there and Lasgun things? Maybe to generate Command Points for Marine armies? Meatshields for tanks+artillery?
Nope. They have a role and they're unable to perform it as it stands--without a significant overhaul to the army, them being 4pts is the only way it really works.
You literally said you'd be happy at them being 5 pts with a 4+ save. That means they shrug off las fire like nothing. It takes 4 autogun/las hits, usually at BS4 making it 8 shots, to kill a single guardsmen with those numbers. That is NOT an infantry unit balanced for this game. That's ridiculously durable for a unit the price of a Hormagant, that can be spammed and given buffs.
He's clearly delusional for asking a 4+ save on a FIVE POINT INFANTRY model
Yes because Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and Stygies are causing SOOOOOO many problems...
They're the best traits in their books. It is just that the armies themselves are mediocre. Get rid of these stupid traits and balance the armies so that they're competitive regardless of which subfaction you want to play.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Kill Team points costs are probably indicative of expected changes in CA 2018...I'd check them if I were you
If that is the case then Grey Knight players are waiting till 2019.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Asmodios wrote: I'll say it again even though it's been said in 100 different threads. You don't see solo guard crushing tournaments will 200 guardsmen because they aren't broken. You don't see any solo guard lists really dominating because the codex isn't broken. What you do see is guardsman all over the place generating CP for factions with good expensive stratigems. Don't screw over guard because of soup being good. Simply make it so that CP can only be used by detachments with the same keyword that generated it and you will see 80% of guard melt out of list overnight. So <blood angel> cannot use CP generated by <cadia>. It will also bring up the power level of every single xenos codex instantly and level out the power of imperium, chaos and eldar
Yes you do, mono guard is quite well and has won GTs recently. In the running for best player in the world is a mono guard player.
The codex is incredibly strong, and is behind only Eldar, Dark Eldar, Custodes (because they can exploit guard), and Imperial Knights (because they can exploit guard).
That's actually pretty fair top 5 imo.
Sidenote, why do people who don't follow tournament scenes at all, talk about the assumed positioning of their army in them? Solo Guard does well all the time at tournaments.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Kill Team points costs are probably indicative of expected changes in CA 2018...I'd check them if I were you
I haven't checked them yet. Are the rules free? Can anyone give me a rough idea of what changes there is in there?
Yes because Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and Stygies are causing SOOOOOO many problems...
They're the best traits in their books. It is just that the armies themselves are mediocre. Get rid of these stupid traits and balance the armies so that they're competitive regardless of which subfaction you want to play.
Is it really that those are the best traits in the book, or is it that a majority of the other traits are garbage?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
ShredderShards wrote: Only thing I don't understand is if this is some sort of satire, or if he genuinely struggles so hard that they believe this garbage. 5pt Guardsmen "cease to be an option"? But Neophytes and Hormagants for example both still see play at that price point?
Show me in the Genestealer Cultist list where there's a unit basically the same as the Neophytes that is the same points cost but gains a better payout from a GSC buff.
That's the difference between Guardsmen and Conscripts. Conscripts are a 50/50 shot to be Ordered but when given FRSRF, they get a significantly higher shot output compared to even a barebones Infantry Squad(which gets 90% effectiveness, thanks to the Sergeant being mandated to not have a Lasgun).
Wait so your argument is that they won't see play, because you have another very strong infantry unit in the dex ready to take their place? How's that any different to how it is now? Of the two units, each is going to do a specific role better most the time? And this way they are no longer so ridiculous external from the dex?
And others have pointed out Guardsmen will still have roles anyway, so this is preferable in multiple ways to how it is now.
So basically, you have no clue what the heck you're talking about? Good to know.
Kanluwen wrote:
The role of Guardsmen is to be the mainstay infantry unit in the Guard's army list. Guardsmen make up the Special Weapon Squads(that nobody really takes) and Heavy Weapon Squads(ditto).
Conscripts' role is to flood the field with bodies.
Scions' role is to operate upfield from the gunline and go after harder targets.
Veterans' role is to be flexible in what they bring.
Oh sorry, did you think their role was just to sit there and Lasgun things? Maybe to generate Command Points for Marine armies? Meatshields for tanks+artillery?
Nope. They have a role and they're unable to perform it as it stands--without a significant overhaul to the army, them being 4pts is the only way it really works.
You literally said you'd be happy at them being 5 pts with a 4+ save. That means they shrug off las fire like nothing. It takes 4 autogun/las hits, usually at BS4 making it 8 shots, to kill a single guardsmen with those numbers.
And your point is? Genestealer Cultists(the closest GEQ--it's still not 100% as Neophytes are LD7/8 versus Guard Infantry [and Scions!] being 6/7) have Neophyte Hybrids, which are able to go to unit size of 20.
So a single unit of 20 Neophytes, armed with Autoguns(or Lasguns--because they can take those too!) gets to put 20 shots out at 24" versus a Guard Squad of 10 putting out 9 at 24".
Going off of your numbers, that means that there's 5 Guardsmen(half the squad) dead to a unit that has the same proposed points value but the ability to be taken in larger numbers while also taking more weapon options and having a higher leadership value and the ability to be dropped in at shorter range via alternate deployment methods(one of which actually allows for them to immediately make a shooting attack outside of sequence).
And that's not even getting into the Acolyte Iconward, which makes those Neophytes a fair bit more survivable than a Guard Infantry Squad (even factoring in nearby Command Squads with Medics--Medic Kit can only be used once per turn on a squad) or the variability in kit that Neophytes have versus Guard.
That is NOT an infantry unit balanced for this game. That's ridiculously durable for a unit the price of a Hormagant, that can be spammed and given buffs.
They cannot be given BUFFS, plural, outside of a specific Relic(Laurels of Command on a 4+, a second Order can be issued to the unit that just got an Order issued to them). They can be given a SINGLE BUFF , provided they're within a certain range of another model. Being given that single buff locks them out from receiving others outside of the Laurels of Command and that Order can't be used to buff anyone else.
Why the heck is it so difficult for people to understand that while yeah, Orders have a bit of range to them compared to Auras...they only affect one unit and they lock out other things unless you've taken specific Relics/Warlord Traits?!
Asmodios wrote: I'll say it again even though it's been said in 100 different threads. You don't see solo guard crushing tournaments will 200 guardsmen because they aren't broken. You don't see any solo guard lists really dominating because the codex isn't broken. What you do see is guardsman all over the place generating CP for factions with good expensive stratigems. Don't screw over guard because of soup being good. Simply make it so that CP can only be used by detachments with the same keyword that generated it and you will see 80% of guard melt out of list overnight. So <blood angel> cannot use CP generated by <cadia>. It will also bring up the power level of every single xenos codex instantly and level out the power of imperium, chaos and eldar
Yes you do, mono guard is quite well and has won GTs recently. In the running for best player in the world is a mono guard player.
The codex is incredibly strong, and is behind only Eldar, Dark Eldar, Custodes (because they can exploit guard), and Imperial Knights (because they can exploit guard).
1. I said "crushing tournaments" mono guard should be able to win GTs.... as should every list
2. You made my point by bringing up knights and custodes and people often lump these lists as mono guard
Once again mono guard is not running around destroying things. If any mono faction should be complained about its DE that are having way more success. The fact is that guard supporting x is running around crushing things because CP sharing is just a bad idea. Most strategems in elite books were not made with the idea that you would be able to use 20+ CP in a game. You can raise the points of guard until eventually you will just switch what gets souped in and never actually solve the problem
Yeah because Orders only affecting one unit matters when the unit giving the order is how many points again? I'm gonna give you a hint: you're not paying the same price as a Necron Overlord.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Asmodios wrote: I'll say it again even though it's been said in 100 different threads. You don't see solo guard crushing tournaments will 200 guardsmen because they aren't broken. You don't see any solo guard lists really dominating because the codex isn't broken. What you do see is guardsman all over the place generating CP for factions with good expensive stratigems. Don't screw over guard because of soup being good. Simply make it so that CP can only be used by detachments with the same keyword that generated it and you will see 80% of guard melt out of list overnight. So <blood angel> cannot use CP generated by <cadia>. It will also bring up the power level of every single xenos codex instantly and level out the power of imperium, chaos and eldar
Yes you do, mono guard is quite well and has won GTs recently. In the running for best player in the world is a mono guard player.
The codex is incredibly strong, and is behind only Eldar, Dark Eldar, Custodes (because they can exploit guard), and Imperial Knights (because they can exploit guard).
That's actually pretty fair top 5 imo.
Sidenote, why do people who don't follow tournament scenes at all, talk about the assumed positioning of their army in them? Solo Guard does well all the time at tournaments.
Why do people who don't know how Guard work talk about the points values of them?
KurtAngle2 wrote: Kill Team points costs are probably indicative of expected changes in CA 2018...I'd check them if I were you
I haven't checked them yet. Are the rules free? Can anyone give me a rough idea of what changes there is in there?
It's not the same game, so the points differences are pretty much useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah because Orders only affecting one unit matters when the unit giving the order is how many points again? I'm gonna give you a hint: you're not paying the same price as a Necron Overlord.
6" radius for issuing an Order, with an HQ only getting to issue 2 Orders and only to <Regiment> Infantry units.
So yeah. Officers are cheap. They also have to be right there unless you're seeding the board with Vox-Casters, which brings the range to 18" instead--but keeps it as 1 unit being affected.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/30 23:38:42
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MUijmVwpFg&t=568s Here for june this guy breaks down top 10 armies every month by number of top 10 finishes at GT guard finishes 4th overall being beaten out by 2 space elves factions. Now one of those lists doing well is catachan mono guard..... sweet we have one competitive list the other ones are simply majority guard but not mono. The fact is that when he does it every month its typical soup armies and you will see this all through 8th. You have to actually read whats in the list not what it says because very few people run actual mono lists. Even adding a single shield captain makes that list not a mono guard list and that is what is dominating tournaments because yes guard are amazing when you can add in other units that bring something that the codex doesn't have.
But it simply amazes me that i see "nuke guard" in about 10 posts a week on dakka but almost nothing in comparison about DE or eldar in general even though they regularly have more top 10 finishes then any imperium faction each month
ShredderShards wrote: Only thing I don't understand is if this is some sort of satire, or if he genuinely struggles so hard that they believe this garbage. 5pt Guardsmen "cease to be an option"? But Neophytes and Hormagants for example both still see play at that price point?
Show me in the Genestealer Cultist list where there's a unit basically the same as the Neophytes that is the same points cost but gains a better payout from a GSC buff. That's the difference between Guardsmen and Conscripts. Conscripts are a 50/50 shot to be Ordered but when given FRSRF, they get a significantly higher shot output compared to even a barebones Infantry Squad(which gets 90% effectiveness, thanks to the Sergeant being mandated to not have a Lasgun).
Wait so your argument is that they won't see play, because you have another very strong infantry unit in the dex ready to take their place? How's that any different to how it is now? Of the two units, each is going to do a specific role better most the time? And this way they are no longer so ridiculous external from the dex?
And others have pointed out Guardsmen will still have roles anyway, so this is preferable in multiple ways to how it is now.
So basically, you have no clue what the heck you're talking about? Good to know.
Excellent response to all that stronger logic you were faced with! Don't have to think of a counter to logic if you just attack the guy who posted it and move on the the next point! Good to see how irrational this discussion is making you.
Kanluwen wrote: The role of Guardsmen is to be the mainstay infantry unit in the Guard's army list. Guardsmen make up the Special Weapon Squads(that nobody really takes) and Heavy Weapon Squads(ditto). Conscripts' role is to flood the field with bodies. Scions' role is to operate upfield from the gunline and go after harder targets. Veterans' role is to be flexible in what they bring.
Oh sorry, did you think their role was just to sit there and Lasgun things? Maybe to generate Command Points for Marine armies? Meatshields for tanks+artillery? Nope. They have a role and they're unable to perform it as it stands--without a significant overhaul to the army, them being 4pts is the only way it really works.
You literally said you'd be happy at them being 5 pts with a 4+ save. That means they shrug off las fire like nothing. It takes 4 autogun/las hits, usually at BS4 making it 8 shots, to kill a single guardsmen with those numbers.
And your point is? Genestealer Cultists(the closest GEQ--it's still not 100% as Neophytes are LD7/8 versus Guard Infantry [and Scions!] being 6/7) have Neophyte Hybrids, which are able to go to unit size of 20. So a single unit of 20 Neophytes, armed with Autoguns(or Lasguns--because they can take those too!) gets to put 20 shots out at 24" versus a Guard Squad of 10 putting out 9 at 24". Going off of your numbers, that means that there's 5 Guardsmen(half the squad) dead to a unit that has the same proposed points value but the ability to be taken in larger numbers while also taking more weapon options and having a higher leadership value and the ability to be dropped in at shorter range via alternate deployment methods(one of which actually allows for them to immediately make a shooting attack outside of sequence).
And that's not even getting into the Acolyte Iconward, which makes those Neophytes a fair bit more survivable than a Guard Infantry Squad (even factoring in nearby Command Squads with Medics--Medic Kit can only be used once per turn on a squad) or the variability in kit that Neophytes have versus Guard.
Man WHAT? You're comparing literally double the amount points worth of Neophytes, with Guardsmen, simply because of max squad size? DERP. You compare units point for point derp derp derp, not by max squad size, lol.
And even then, going off this terrible logic, your maths is well off. 20 S3 shots at BS4+ vs T3 Guardsmen with a 4+ save, who are being outnumbered by literally DOUBLE as many points of Neophytes, sees literally 2.5 Guardsmen. Those Guardsmen firing would almost match that for half the points, killing slightly under 2 Neophytes themselves.
This is literally what you are saying would be fine. Get a stronger grip of this game, especially before telling others they don't understand it.
That is NOT an infantry unit balanced for this game. That's ridiculously durable for a unit the price of a Hormagant, that can be spammed and given buffs.
They cannot be given BUFFS, plural, outside of a specific Relic(Laurels of Command on a 4+, a second Order can be issued to the unit that just got an Order issued to them). They can be given a SINGLE BUFF , provided they're within a certain range of another model. Being given that single buff locks them out from receiving others outside of the Laurels of Command and that Order can't be used to buff anyone else.
So if I was to take them in Catachan Infantry for +1 S, and put them near Straken for +1 A, +1 LD (oh and he gives two orders himself) would that count as buffing these models from their original statline? You included the Iconward buff in your derp level maths up above, so where's the consistency?
Seems like your argument is basically if Guard have it = bad, if anyone else has it = so strong. This argument is so terrible.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/07/31 00:33:57
Asmodios wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MUijmVwpFg&t=568s
Here for june this guy breaks down top 10 armies every month by number of top 10 finishes at GT guard finishes 4th overall being beaten out by 2 space elves factions. Now one of those lists doing well is catachan mono guard..... sweet we have one competitive list the other ones are simply majority guard but not mono. The fact is that when he does it every month its typical soup armies and you will see this all through 8th. You have to actually read whats in the list not what it says because very few people run actual mono lists. Even adding a single shield captain makes that list not a mono guard list and that is what is dominating tournaments because yes guard are amazing when you can add in other units that bring something that the codex doesn't have.
But it simply amazes me that i see "nuke guard" in about 10 posts a week on dakka but almost nothing in comparison about DE or eldar in general even though they regularly have more top 10 finishes then any imperium faction each month
IG and DE are both considerably more obnoxious than CWE, imo. DE have so much gak to nerf, it's almost too overwhelming.
I feel bad for Eldar player's not playing Alaitoc (i.e. not being an donkey-cave in friendly games), but that doesn't change that a Hemlock Wraithfighter is far too cheap for what it can do (as Alaitoc).
But the real problem is the stupid armywide -1 to hit. That trait should have never existed. I really hope they get rid of those in the next CA, would fix a lot of balance issues at one fell swoop.
Yes because Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and Stygies are causing SOOOOOO many problems...
You know something can be toxic without being competitively OP, don't you? Many videogames have this problem with X options being busted agaisnt noobs that can't counter play it but are useless in high level competitive play. Un-fun mechanics, as they call it. And they are even more problematic than OP stuff because they affect the pool of new players. The blood of the game.
The "-1 to hit" traits are just bad for the game. They should all be removed.
And about mono-Imperial Guard. They are the Tau of 8th. They aren't OP enough to win tournamens left and right (Only because DE and Soup are just better), but they are the gatekeepers. Behind the Imperial (BA+AC+IG, IK+IG, AC+IG) , Chaos (Daemon prince fiesta+Ahriman+Cultists) and Eldar Soup (DE+CW, Ynnari) armies you have Imperial Guard right there. After soups, the two best codex/mono armies of the game are DE and Imperail Guard without a doubt. People that claim otherwise is just wrong. And they are above by a big margin from the rest of mono-faction contenders.
Does this mean they are unbeteable? Nah. But they are undeniablily strong, and not only has a component of soup as many people claim has a red herring. Tallarn, Catachan and Cadian imperial guard armies are very, very good.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/07/31 00:33:23
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Excellent response to all that stronger logic you were faced with! Don't have to think of a counter to logic if you just attack the guy who posted it and move on the the next point! Good to see how irrational this discussion is making you.
What stronger logic? You just whined about Neophytes and Hormagaunts.
Man WHAT? You're comparing literally double the amount points worth of Neophytes, with Guardsmen, simply because of max squad size? DERP. You compare units point for point derp derp derp, not by max squad size, lol.
And anyone taking Neophytes usually is going to be taking them in units of 20, not 10s.
And even then, going off this terrible logic, your maths is well off. 20 S3 shots at BS4+ vs T3 Guardsmen with a 4+ save, who are being outnumbered by literally DOUBLE as many points of Neophytes, sees literally 2.5 Guardsmen. Those Guardsmen firing would almost match that for half the points, killing slightly under 2 Neophytes themselves.
That means they shrug off las fire like nothing. It takes 4 autogun/las hits, usually at BS4 making it 8 shots, to kill a single guardsmen with those numbers.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that I misread your initial numbers and just worked off the 4 bit autogun/las hits--but it still doesn't change the point of those 20 Neophytes giving a hell of a lot more out to the Guardsmen than the Guardsmen give in return.
20 models getting to fire at 24" means that you're looking at as you mentioned 2 and a half Guardsmen slain vs 9(with no upgrades--any HWTs or SWs reduce that number further but you know that don'tcha?) at 24" taking out 1.
That's a 1.5 difference simply by dint of the fact that the guy in charge retains the same weapon as the squad and
This is literally what you are saying would be fine. Get a stronger grip of this game, especially before telling others they don't understand it.
You're talking as though Neophytes are somehow inferior to Guardsmen (despite having a stronger LD and the ability to be forward deployed within rapid fire range) while trying to paint me as the one who seemingly doesn't know WTF I'm talking about.
You might have a firm grasp on the game, but you don't know your left from your right when discussing the way Guard play.
That is NOT an infantry unit balanced for this game. That's ridiculously durable for a unit the price of a Hormagant, that can be spammed and given buffs.
They cannot be given BUFFS, plural, outside of a specific Relic(Laurels of Command on a 4+, a second Order can be issued to the unit that just got an Order issued to them). They can be given a SINGLE BUFF , provided they're within a certain range of another model. Being given that single buff locks them out from receiving others outside of the Laurels of Command and that Order can't be used to buff anyone else.
So if I was to take them in Catachan Infantry for +1 S, and put them near Straken for +1 A, +1 LD (oh and he gives two orders himself) would that count as buffing these models from their original statline?
Oh look! How did I know that Straken would come up... Yes. Straken gives a buff to Catachan Squads.
He gives these squads, that has 1 melee weapon on the Sergeant, +1A and +1LD.
So Straken gives them the "Fix Bayonets!" Order...and then what?
Laurels of Command can't be taken by him. You've just blown Fix Bayonets on a Guard Infantry Squad that's WS4+ and has one melee weapon among those 10 models the ability to fight instead of shoot(assuming the unit was within 1" of an enemy unit to start with) and they have a whopping 21 attacks spread throughout the squad at S4.
What's the plan here? What exactly do you think you're accomplishing? 10.5 of those attacks hit and then you still have to wound on a variable table.
You included the Iconward buff in your derp level maths up above, so where's the consistency?
Yeah, I didn't "include" the Iconward in. I mentioned it as it is a key difference between a Guard army and a GSC army. Having a 6" FNP is a huge deal when we're talking about literally the same unit and return fire.
Seems like your argument is basically if Guard have it = bad, if anyone else has it = so strong. This argument is so terrible.
Yeah, no. My argument is that Guard are in a crummy spot right now because the army is woefully misunderstood on a mechanical level by its main detractors(people like Martel who seem to think a single Officer can give every single model an Order all at once and that FRFSRF means that a Guard Infantry Squad is dumping out 30 Lasgun shots at 12") whilst being constantly misrepresented by tournament fanatics as being some kind of solo unstoppable force.
Why does any model under 10 points have an armor save any way? Get rid of all of them. Guard infantry, space elfs of both Sith and Jedi flavors, fire warriors, guants, all of it.
Speed the game up and make power armor that much better.
Excellent response to all that stronger logic you were faced with! Don't have to think of a counter to logic if you just attack the guy who posted it and move on the the next point! Good to see how irrational this discussion is making you.
What stronger logic? You just whined about Neophytes and Hormagaunts.
Literally all I said was that both those units were fine. Lol. What did you read?
Man WHAT? You're comparing literally double the amount points worth of Neophytes, with Guardsmen, simply because of max squad size? DERP. You compare units point for point derp derp derp, not by max squad size, lol.
And anyone taking Neophytes usually is going to be taking them in units of 20, not 10s.
Uhhhhhhh....
1.) No. No, they don't. The most successful lists to use them have taken them in 10 man units. And I'm happy to source E.G. this list went undefeated at London GT.
2.) Even if they did, you are still comparing the efficiency of 100 pts of Neophytes to 50 points of Gaurdsmen, for no other reason than it serves your nonsense narrative. Compare it to two units of Guardsmen for the same points, genius.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that I misread your initial numbers and just worked off the 4 bit autogun/las hits--but it still doesn't change the point of those 20 Neophytes giving a hell of a lot more out to the Guardsmen than the Guardsmen give in return.
20 models getting to fire at 24" means that you're looking at as you mentioned 2 and a half Guardsmen slain vs 9(with no upgrades--any HWTs or SWs reduce that number further but you know that don'tcha?) at 24" taking out 1.
That's a 1.5 difference simply by dint of the fact that the guy in charge retains the same weapon as the squad and
I genuinely have no idea what you're saying here, and it seems like you just trailed off mid sentence.
But the fact that you are somehow genuinely trying to argue that a 5pt T3 model with a 4+ save, is less durable than a 5pt T3 model with a 5+ save, just shows how absurdly biased you are being here.
There is no way you can deliver your perspective here that is not just open mockery of reality. Math will not support your perspective, neither will logic.
Oh look! How did I know that Straken would come up...
I suspect the part where you literally just said that Guardsmen could not be buffed outside of a Relic, would probably have played a role in the fact that you "knew" Straken was about to get brought up.
Yeah, I didn't "include" the Iconward in. I mentioned it as it is a key difference between a Guard army and a GSC army. Having a 6" FNP is a huge deal when we're talking about literally the same unit and return fire.
Wait so you're saying Iconward's FNP buff doesn't count as a buff either (because admitting that would destroy your past statements), and you only mentioned the Iconwards FNP bubble, as an inclusion in the maths comparison between 5pt Guardsmen with a 4+ save, and current-state (5pt 5+) Neophytes? So now it's 155 points worth of units vs 50 pts of Guardsmen? But of course, you didn't include buffs from the same amount of points worth of Company Commanders as a factor, right?
Seems like your argument is basically if Guard have it = bad, if anyone else has it = so strong. This argument is so terrible.
Yeah, no. My argument is that Guard are in a crummy spot right now because the army is woefully misunderstood on a mechanical level by its main detractors(people like Martel who seem to think a single Officer can give every single model an Order all at once and that FRFSRF means that a Guard Infantry Squad is dumping out 30 Lasgun shots at 12") whilst being constantly misrepresented by tournament fanatics as being some kind of solo unstoppable force.
I think you're in a terrible spot as a player to genuinely believe this.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/07/31 02:19:57
KurtAngle2 wrote: Kill Team points costs are probably indicative of expected changes in CA 2018...I'd check them if I were you
Not very likely. I doubt we're going to see 25 point Lictors or 14 point Plague Marines.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Martel732 wrote: I have guard in my lists now, genius. I know exactly how they work. And they are OP as feth. They outclass marines in every phase of the game.
That isn't saying much, everyone except GK outclass marines. It's more of a problem of marines needing buffs then IG needing nerfs.
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Marmatag wrote: And conscripts should be 5 points, with guardsmen costing more. Sorry IG folks, your infantry is undercosted and it's ridiculous.
HAHAHAHA!
I can't tell if you are being serious or not. What do you think about 4+, 6++, IG infantry shooting bolters at 30" for 7 points? Because that is what mechanicus rangers are.
Sorry buddy, marines suck this edition... instead of advocating for nerfs to every other army to bring them down to marine levels, why don't you advocate for buffs to marines? Comparing anything to marines is a flawed comparison, because marines are a dumpster fire and should no way indicate what a "good" army looks like. IG and tyranids and examples of armies that are "good" but not "too good" and should be the standard that all codices are balanced around. The only faction I think might need some reigning in are eldar, but it's mostly a few problematic units.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/08/01 21:34:23
Infantry Guardsmen are 5ppm models all day everyday
They need to pay for the 5+Sv, everyone else is paying the same points for 6+ saves you can't be seriously trying to sell that a +1 to a save isn't worth a point.
Ice_can wrote: Infantry Guardsmen are 5ppm models all day everyday
They need to pay for the 5+Sv, everyone else is paying the same points for 6+ saves you can't be seriously trying to sell that a +1 to a save isn't worth a point.
Guardsmen WERE 5 pt models... until rangers and fire warriors went down to 7 points, among other things like kabalites.
Conscripts at 4ppm is very fair, all things considering.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/02 02:47:16
KurtAngle2 wrote: Kill Team points costs are probably indicative of expected changes in CA 2018...I'd check them if I were you
Not very likely. I doubt we're going to see 25 point Lictors or 14 point Plague Marines.
As base costs without weapons? Why not, it's a way to reprice them
Those are their costs including weapons.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Marmatag wrote: They're out in the open because in order to get within range they must be exposed. There is not terrain providing cover wherein they can take shelter without massively limiting their scope. I am speaking with the standard tournament terrain setup in mind. If you have a whole city on your gaming table then their value might change, as would the value of assault units in general. But in a competitive setting if the Hellblasters are in range they aren't in cover. Or, they're in cover, and their scope is severely limited. And when you start splitting your army up you find yourself pretty vulnerable. Are you going to really alpha deploy Hellblasters and let them get annihilated? They better make their points back that turn, and then some. I'm assuming you'd land a captain with them at least, increasing their cost and taking that buff away from the rest of the army...
Hellblasters cannot ride in a drop pod. You have very few limited options to deep strike them. Raven Guard, but this is heavily dependent on first turn, Deathwatch, the best way, and Space Wolves, with Outflank. Am I missing anything? These 3 ways to get Hellblasters into range. Dark Reapers can deepstrike for 1 cp. And when they do they hit on 3s. So if you think that squad of 10 reapers is dying turn 1 if they go second, you're wrong.
Dark Reapers are far less vulnerable to small arms because they are never exposed to small arms. And if they are, they are always in cover, because it's not hard to put 48" range models in ruins.
The second we start talking synergy of their relative armies, the Dark Reapers get even better, because they have more easily applied buffs (Guide, Fortune) and have better units supporting them (Kabalite Venoms, Hemlocks, etc).
The way to defeat reapers isn't small arms, it's with indirect fire, ideally ignoring cover. Because outside of the Exarch they're not shooting unless they have line of sight, and while they do see almost the entirety of the board, they can't see through walls.
And I didn't assume Raven Guard because Raven Guard are not the competitive way to run marines. Losing Guilliman for a pathetic boost that only affects infantry and walkers with a -1 isn't worth it. Eldar get -1 on EVERYTHING, which is why Alaitoc is always assumed. The second Raven Guard buff affects all units including flyers, etc, i'll assume Raven Guard.
That is a whole pile of assumptions there. No useful terrain, no other units in drop pods, no possibility of ignoring cover, no RG tactics... etc. There's little point arguing if you're going to make so many assumptions.
A lot of indirect fire weapons are also only 1W, making the Dark Reapers more vulnerable again. T3 1W. Find them with any weapon. Tunnelling Devouerer Gaunts could do it, and are scaleable with buffs. I like Drop Grav with marines, but I'm sure theres a number of ways to approach it.
In other news I'm excited to say that we may have a new eldar soup player in my area, so I'll get to see firsthand what all the whining is about. I saw Reapers, lots of Shining Spears, Cat Lady, Ravagers, Rangers, etc.
I'm making the assumption of a standard tournament table. Since we have to operate on the basis of SOME assumptions regarding terrain, what do you propose? We can't have a discussion about the merits of units without some base agreement on what a standard warhammer table should have on it.
Given its a forum dedicated to the broad swathe of 40k players, I'd say limiting discussion to tournament play is pretty daft. Imo40k functions best with more terrain than what I see in tourney pics, generally. I'd also suggest that more terain is probably more like the designers intended. If something is out of balance on relatively wide open tables, that's not necessarily a problem inherent in the unit. I'd go even further and say that it's a feature, not a bug, that unit-value changes with terrain density.
Don't talk about devourer gaunts, I actually play Tyranids. For less points i can bring 6 hive guard and chew them up with indirect fire that ignores cover. Meanwhile those Gaunt bombs are a complete waste post DS update, and if you ever find yourself in a chess clock scenario 30 guants are not worth the time it takes to play them. You'll lose on time, every time.
There's no monopoly to be had on Tyranids, I have maybe 4K points of the buggers. And I did say there were probably numerous ways to handle Dark Reapers. Hive Guard can obviously be one of them. I just happened to finish building a number of Gants, and they Illustrate the point of Dark Reapers being vulnerable to small arms.
Time limits is another reason why tournament play can be completely irrelevant.
And when you play the Eldar guy, and you are hitting his Hemlock Wraithfighers on 6s with your heavies, and in turn they're annihilating 6d3 of any base marine per turn (regardless of your tactics) anywhere on the board, tell me how it goes.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
