Currently most broken units

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**Martel732**

No 4 pt model should have a 5+ save in 8th ed. Period.

**Backspacehacker**

Martel732 wrote:
No 4 pt model should have a 5+ save in 8th ed. Period.

What has that?

**Martel732**

A guardsman.

**Xenomancers**

Martel732 wrote:
No 4 pt model should have a 5+ save in 8th ed. Period.

Agreed.

**Backspacehacker**

Martel732 wrote:
A guardsman.

How? With the aquilla?

**Kanluwen**

Martel732 wrote:
No 4 pt model should have a 5+ save in 8th ed. Period.

Then give them a 4+ and bump them to 5pts.

Also, lol @ your statement.
Skitarii Rangers(4+ save and 6+ invuln): 7pts
Vanguard(4+ save and 6+ invuln): 8 pts

Now, if you want to argue that Guardsmen should be better and receive an accordingly treated price bump? Totally okay with that.
But that's never your argument. You think they should just fall over and die and be 5-7pts.

**Galas**

Kanluwen, if a unit is OP at X point cost, and the way to balance it is to make them cost X+1, you can't buff them at the same time becaus then you end up in the same place. Unless you redesign it, and change his rules, values and point cost all together.

I agree that Guardsmen should be 5 pt. Kabalites should go to 7ppm, and Tau Firewarriors and Skitari Rangers and Vanguards should cost all 8 ppm. (And my biggest army is my fire warrior heavy Tau army). And now that we are at it, make Tempestus Scions 3 base points cheaper and make them pay for deepstrike with an upgrade like Reivers that cost 4-5 ppm.

**Bobthehero**

Cheap deepstrike-less Scion would just make Vets even more irrelevant, while at the same time preventing your Scions from benefitting from regimental doctrine, thus they would represent Grenadier in a rather poor way

**Galas**

Bobthehero wrote:
Cheap deepstrike-less Scion would just make Vets even more irrelevant, while at the same time preventing your Scions from benefitting from regimental doctrine, thus they would represent Grenadier in a rather poor way

Thats the point. Veterans are irrelevant at this point in time. If GW won't give them the options to have 4+ saves they should just delete them and make Scions have the regiment keyword.
The reality is that veterans suck and theres no reason to have your Scions inside Tauroxes Primes.

**Billagio**

Galas wrote:
Kanluwen, if a unit is OP at X point cost, and the way to balance it is to make them cost X+1, you can't buff them at the same time becaus then you end up in the same place. Unless you redesign it, and change his rules, values and point cost all together.

I agree that Guardsmen should be 5 pt. Kabalites should go to 7ppm, and Tau Firewarriors and Skitari Rangers and Vanguards should cost all 8 ppm. (And my biggest army is my fire warrior heavy Tau army). And now that we are at it, make Tempestus Scions 3 base points cheaper and make them pay for deepstrike with an upgrade like Reivers that cost 4-5 ppm.

Id agree with that for guardsmen and Kalabite points, cant comment on the others sadly.

**Marmatag**

Insectum7 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
They're out in the open because in order to get within range they must be exposed. There is not terrain providing cover wherein they can take shelter without massively limiting their scope. I am speaking with the standard tournament terrain setup in mind. If you have a whole city on your gaming table then their value might change, as would the value of assault units in general. But in a competitive setting if the Hellblasters are in range they aren't in cover. Or, they're in cover, and their scope is severely limited. And when you start splitting your army up you find yourself pretty vulnerable. Are you going to really alpha deploy Hellblasters and let them get annihilated? They better make their points back that turn, and then some. I'm assuming you'd land a captain with them at least, increasing their cost and taking that buff away from the rest of the army...

Hellblasters cannot ride in a drop pod. You have very few limited options to deep strike them. Raven Guard, but this is heavily dependent on first turn, Deathwatch, the best way, and Space Wolves, with Outflank. Am I missing anything? These 3 ways to get Hellblasters into range. Dark Reapers can deepstrike for 1 cp. And when they do they hit on 3s. So if you think that squad of 10 reapers is dying turn 1 if they go second, you're wrong.

Dark Reapers are far less vulnerable to small arms because they are never exposed to small arms. And if they are, they are always in cover, because it's not hard to put 48" range models in ruins.

The second we start talking synergy of their relative armies, the Dark Reapers get even better, because they have more easily applied buffs (Guide, Fortune) and have better units supporting them (Kabalite Venoms, Hemlocks, etc).

The way to defeat reapers isn't small arms, it's with indirect fire, ideally ignoring cover. Because outside of the Exarch they're not shooting unless they have line of sight, and while they do see almost the entirety of the board, they can't see through walls.

And I didn't assume Raven Guard because Raven Guard are not the competitive way to run marines. Losing Guilliman for a pathetic boost that only affects infantry and walkers with a -1 isn't worth it. Eldar get -1 on EVERYTHING, which is why Alaitoc is always assumed. The second Raven Guard buff affects all units including flyers, etc, i'll assume Raven Guard.

That is a whole pile of assumptions there. No useful terrain, no other units in drop pods, no possibility of ignoring cover, no RG tactics... etc. There's little point arguing if you're going to make so many assumptions.

A lot of indirect fire weapons are also only 1W, making the Dark Reapers more vulnerable again. T3 1W. Find them with any weapon. Tunnelling Devouerer Gaunts could do it, and are scaleable with buffs. I like Drop Grav with marines, but I'm sure theres a number of ways to approach it.

In other news I'm excited to say that we may have a new eldar soup player in my area, so I'll get to see firsthand what all the whining is about. I saw Reapers, lots of Shining Spears, Cat Lady, Ravagers, Rangers, etc.

I'm making the assumption of a standard tournament table. Since we have to operate on the basis of SOME assumptions regarding terrain, what do you propose? We can't have a discussion about the merits of units without some base agreement on what a standard warhammer table should have on it.

Don't talk about devourer gaunts, I actually play Tyranids. For less points i can bring 6 hive guard and chew them up with indirect fire that ignores cover. Meanwhile those Gaunt bombs are a complete waste post DS update, and if you ever find yourself in a chess clock scenario 30 guants are not worth the time it takes to play them. You'll lose on time, every time.

And when you play the Eldar guy, and you are hitting his Hemlock Wraithfighers on 6s with your heavies, and in turn they're annihilating 6d3 of any base marine per turn (regardless of your tactics) anywhere on the board, tell me how it goes.

**Kanluwen**

Galas wrote:
Kanluwen, if a unit is OP at X point cost, and the way to balance it is to make them cost X+1, you can't buff them at the same time becaus then you end up in the same place. Unless you redesign it, and change his rules, values and point cost all together.

You understand that at 5pts, Guardsmen will cease to exist as an option again right?

There's a reason why Conscripts were so dominant prior to their nerf. Guard players aren't the ones abusing this crap and hopping them from one type to the other as the winds blow. It's people running soup. You can try to convince me until you're blue in the face, but putting it bluntly? You'd be wrong.

You need to understand this and understand it well:
Giving a Guardsman a 4+ save is worth 1 pt. He'll still be at BS4+ when he's shooting, he'll still have to be within a certain range of an Officer to receive an Order, he'll still only be able to receive 1 Order per turn, etc.
Literally the only thing that changes is that he gets a 4+ save.

Now that's the reason why the post that I made specifically called out that if he wanted to argue Guardsmen should be better and receive an accordingly treated price bump, I would be okay with his suggestions. But again: This is never the case. It's always that they shouldn't get a save and they should just fall over dead while being 5-7pts.

I agree that Guardsmen should be 5 pt. Kabalites should go to 7ppm

No, they shouldn't. Not until their stuff becomes aura based rather than triggered by specific circumstances.

and Tau Firewarriors and Skitari Rangers and Vanguards should cost all 8 ppm. (And my biggest army is my fire warrior heavy Tau army).

Out of the three things you just named, two are 7 pts while 1 is 8. The 8 pts item has an aura effect that makes them more effective against CC units--which is the range bracket that it usually will be getting into, given its weapon nature.

And now that we are at it, make Tempestus Scions 3 base points cheaper and make them pay for deepstrike with an upgrade like Reivers that cost 4-5 ppm.

Sure, and then Scions get the benefit of the Militarum Tempestus

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galas wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Cheap deepstrike-less Scion would just make Vets even more irrelevant, while at the same time preventing your Scions from benefitting from regimental doctrine, thus they would represent Grenadier in a rather poor way

Thats the point. Veterans are irrelevant at this point in time. If GW won't give them the options to have 4+ saves they should just delete them and make Scions have the regiment keyword.
The reality is that veterans suck and theres no reason to have your Scions inside Tauroxes Primes.

That's because the Taurox Prime wasn't really designed as a transport. It's effectively the Razorback of the Guard--a guntruck that can carry some people.

Additionally, Veterans are "irrelevant" because they're in the Elites slot.
They're "irrelevant" because the points cost for their schtick(multiple special weapons) is costed the same as a unit that Deep Strikes.
They're "irrelevant" because, bluntly, they're effectively just Guardsmen with BS3+ instead of 4+.

**Galas**

Thats my point. Veterans and Tempestus Scions are just the same thing. But Veterans are a left over that has lost all of his value and reason to be. Is clear that Tempestus are there to be the elite Imperial Guard.
Tauroxes Primes maybe are designed more as a gunboat but thematically it still works as a transport for Tempestus. And I just want to stop feeling stupid everytime I put a Tempestus squad inside a Taurox instead of deepstriking them

Thats why I hope GW just merges both dathasheets and make Tempestus Elites with "regiment" keyword, and make them troops if they are Tempestus Scions, like Khorne Berzerkers.

And I disagree that a 5ppm model with the amount of sinergy IG has and a 4+ save would be balanced. And no, 3ppm conscripts where used by Imperial Guard lists too, not soup. In the time of conscript+Commisar spam, soup lists wheren't actually that common. The TOP lists where Guilliman+Razorback/Stormraven spam or Conscript spam. But I don't follow this discussion because this his circular and at this point tiresome. GW has decided that Imperial Guardsmen should cost 4ppm. I can live with it. If they decide in the future to make them 5ppm, then the better.

And I know that Vanguard have that aura over Rangers. Now that you have pointed it out, with the new FW transport for Mechanicum, yeah, I believe Vanguard have merits to be 1 point more expensive than Rangers. But before, without transport, in my opinion they wheren't valuable enough to cost more, because it was very hard for them to enter meele in a shooty army.

"Sure, and then Scions get the benefit of the Militarum Tempestus "
I don't understand this. Yes, they get the benefit?

**w1zard**

As a guard player. Guardsmen really should be 5ppm if you are comparing to things like space marines or ork boyz.

However, with the release of the new codices and things like rangers, kabalites, and fire warriors being priced how they are, 4ppm guardsmen are right where they should be. Instead of fixing things, GW doubled down on the concept of cheap horde infantry.

**Galas**

Yeah. Making Firewarriors, Skitarii, Kabalites, etc... cheaper was a mistake. Kroot on the other hand at 5ppm are in a very nice spot.

**Kanluwen**

Galas wrote:
Thats my point. Veterans and Tempestus Scions are just the same thing. But Veterans are a left over that has lost all of his value and reason to be. Is clear that Tempestus are there to be the elite Imperial Guard.

No actually, they aren't. They're there to be a force that exists within the framework of the organization that the Guard is a part of, but is separate to them.
Veterans on the other hand are those Guardsmen who have lived long enough through everything they've seen to get a few dirty tricks and work on their aim.

Only thing is the "dirty tricks" are gone.

Tauroxes Primes maybe are designed more as a gunboat but thematically it still works as a transport for Tempestus. And I just want to stop feeling stupid everytime I put a Tempestus squad inside a Taurox instead of deepstriking them

Then have the transport on the field and deep strike them in first...? I mean, that's what we've had fluff mention of.

Thats why I hope GW just merges both dathasheets and make Tempestus Elites with "regiment" keyword, and make them troops if they are Tempestus Scions, like Khorne Berzerkers.

Yeah...no. The current system is fine, but Veterans need a reason to be taken.

And I disagree that a 5ppm model with the amount of sinergy IG has and a 4+ save would be balanced. And no, 3ppm conscripts where used by Imperial Guard lists too, not soup. In the time of conscript+Commisar spam, soup lists wheren't actually that common. The TOP lists where Guilliman+Razorback/Stormraven spam or Conscript spam. But I don't follow this discussion because this his circular and at this point tiresome. GW has decided that Imperial Guardsmen should cost 4ppm. I can live with it. If they decide in the future to make them 5ppm, then the better.

What synergy? Orders? The thing that they can only accept 1 of per turn?

3ppm Conscripts lasted until the first big FAQ for Guard. As soon as Commissars got nerfed and Conscripts went to 4pts, they ceased to be a Big Deal for Guard--but continued to be a Big Deal for soup.

Also, you're wrong. Soup lists were fairly common from the outset of 8th.

And I know that Vanguard have that aura over Rangers. Now that you have pointed it out, with the new FW transport for Mechanicum, yeah, I believe Vanguard have merits to be 1 point more expensive than Rangers. But before, without transport, in my opinion they wheren't valuable enough to cost more, because it was very hard for them to enter meele in a shooty army.

Most people who played pure Skitarii likely know that Vanguard aren't there to "enter melee". They're there to soak up charges and provide a surprisingly annoying speed bump.

"Sure, and then Scions get the benefit of the Militarum Tempestus "
I don't understand this. Yes, they get the benefit?

Reivers get their benefits with no caveats. Scions don't.

Try to keep up.

**Billagio**

Galas wrote:
Yeah. Making Firewarriors, Skitarii, Kabalites, etc... cheaper was a mistake. Kroot on the other hand at 5ppm are in a very nice spot.

Agreed. If they reduce the price of boyz in the codex with no other changes but with the addtion of clan rules/chapter tactics, that would certainly be insane (not that I would complain

, but orks have been 6 points and essentially the same statline for like 5 editions now so I dont see that changing...I hope). I think the problem was not necessarily making infantry cheaper, but the combination of cheaper and chapter tactics/equivalents.

Guardsmen on their own with no buffs arnt that amazing even at 4 points, its when you throw in orders (which an arguement should be made for making CCs more expensive, not guardsmen) and chapter tactics/cadians that they become amazing

**Luke_Prowler**

Lets be honest here: if IG infantry got nerfed to 5pts, everyone using the Guard codex for CP battery and screens will just switch them to conscripts, and this whole stupid cycle will start all over again.

**Darsath**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
Lets be honest here: if IG infantry got nerfed to 5pts, everyone using the Guard codex for CP battery and screens will just switch them to conscripts, and this whole stupid cycle will start all over again.

Yeah, I think the real issue here is that the ally system really wasn't thought out enough before they implemented it. With the number of changes they've had to make to it, and with how it currently makes armies like Imperial Guard an easy-access command point engine, it really needs to re-done. Even if they find a patch for this, it's clear that more issues will continue to pop up. I was factions to be able to be completely viable solely using their base codex, and not having to rely on other factions to ally in for good chances at victory.

**Kanluwen**

Darsath wrote:
Luke_Prowler wrote:
Lets be honest here: if IG infantry got nerfed to 5pts, everyone using the Guard codex for CP battery and screens will just switch them to conscripts, and this whole stupid cycle will start all over again.

Yeah, I think the real issue here is that the ally system really wasn't thought out enough before they implemented it. With the number of changes they've had to make to it, and with how it currently makes armies like Imperial Guard an easy-access command point engine, it really needs to re-done. Even if they find a patch for this, it's clear that more issues will continue to pop up. I was factions to be able to be completely viable solely using their base codex, and not having to rely on other factions to ally in for good chances at victory.

The ally system was thought through--but the issue is that they didn't factor in numbercrunching listwizards.

Think about it:
We have "Allied" Detachments as an option, as in things where you suffer -1 Command Point but get to take just a single unit. That you can take things like Brigades or Battalions is where the issue lies--alongside of the ability to put Relics on Allied characters.

**ShredderShards**

Only thing I don't understand is if this is some sort of satire, or if he genuinely struggles so hard that they believe this garbage. 5pt Guardsmen "cease to be an option"? But Neophytes and Hormagants for example both still see play at that price point?

Kanluwen wrote:if you want to argue that Guardsmen should be better and receive an accordingly treated price bump? Totally okay with that.

I'm sure you would be, because you seem to vastly misunderstand the role of a Guardsmen. Hint, it's not shrugging off half of three quarters of all bullets thrown his way.

**Gitdakka**

Guardsmen at 5 pts would not change any soups. Their cp battery would be 30 pts more expensive wich is nothing in the grand scheme. Also conscripts are minimum 20 dudes/squad yes? They would still be more expensive than infantry squads to get the battallion cp.

**Kanluwen**

ShredderShards wrote:
Only thing I don't understand is if this is some sort of satire, or if he genuinely struggles so hard that they believe this garbage. 5pt Guardsmen "cease to be an option"? But Neophytes and Hormagants for example both still see play at that price point?

Show me in the Genestealer Cultist list where there's a unit basically the same as the Neophytes that is the same points cost but gains a better payout from a GSC buff.
That's the difference between Guardsmen and Conscripts. Conscripts are a 50/50 shot to be Ordered but when given FRSRF, they get a significantly higher shot output compared to even a barebones Infantry Squad(which gets 90% effectiveness, thanks to the Sergeant being mandated to not have a Lasgun).

Once Conscripts were put at a higher points cost than basic Guardsmen and given the 50/50 shot on receiving Orders alongside of the Commissar butchering, that's when MSU Guard started to show up as a thing.

Kanluwen wrote:if you want to argue that Guardsmen should be better and receive an accordingly treated price bump? Totally okay with that.

I'm sure you would be, because you seem to vastly misunderstand the role of a Guardsmen. Hint, it's not shrugging off half of three quarters of all bullets thrown his way.

The role of Guardsmen is to be the mainstay infantry unit in the Guard's army list. Guardsmen make up the Special Weapon Squads(that nobody really takes) and Heavy Weapon Squads(ditto).
Conscripts' role is to flood the field with bodies.
Scions' role is to operate upfield from the gunline and go after harder targets.
Veterans' role is to be flexible in what they bring.

Oh sorry, did you think their role was just to sit there and Lasgun things? Maybe to generate Command Points for Marine armies? Meatshields for tanks+artillery?
Nope. They have a role and they're unable to perform it as it stands--without a significant overhaul to the army, them being 4pts is the only way it really works.

**Marmatag**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
Lets be honest here: if IG infantry got nerfed to 5pts, everyone using the Guard codex for CP battery and screens will just switch them to conscripts, and this whole stupid cycle will start all over again.

But they'd also give up a guaranteed 3 points of reaper which they aren't right now, diminished access to orders, and an extra 3 Cadian mortar teams. These are non trivial things.

And conscripts should be 5 points, with guardsmen costing more. Sorry IG folks, your infantry is undercosted and it's ridiculous.

**Tyel**

Gitdakka wrote:
Guardsmen at 5 pts would not change any soups. Their cp battery would be 30 pts more expensive wich is nothing in the grand scheme. Also conscripts are minimum 20 dudes/squad yes? They would still be more expensive than infantry squads to get the battallion cp.

30 points is something.
The aim is to make the option slightly less attractive, not kill it from space.

**Arachnofiend**

I don't think anything is going to change unless GW reworks how CP works. The Kill Team rules for that mechanic are really nice, though a straight port of them into 40k wouldn't work.

**Asmodios**

I'll say it again even though it's been said in 100 different threads. You don't see solo guard crushing tournaments will 200 guardsmen because they aren't broken. You don't see any solo guard lists really dominating because the codex isn't broken. What you do see is guardsman all over the place generating CP for factions with good expensive stratigems. Don't screw over guard because of soup being good. Simply make it so that CP can only be used by detachments with the same keyword that generated it and you will see 80% of guard melt out of list overnight. So <blood angel> cannot use CP generated by <cadia>. It will also bring up the power level of every single xenos codex instantly and level out the power of imperium, chaos and eldar

**Slayer-Fan123**

Crimson wrote:
Trollbert wrote:

I feel bad for Eldar player's not playing Alaitoc (i.e. not being an donkey-cave in friendly games), but that doesn't change that a Hemlock Wraithfighter is far too cheap for what it can do (as Alaitoc).

But the real problem is the stupid armywide -1 to hit. That trait should have never existed. I really hope they get rid of those in the next CA, would fix a lot of balance issues at one fell swoop.

Yes because Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and Stygies are causing SOOOOOO many problems...

**Marmatag**

Asmodios wrote:
I'll say it again even though it's been said in 100 different threads. You don't see solo guard crushing tournaments will 200 guardsmen because they aren't broken. You don't see any solo guard lists really dominating because the codex isn't broken. What you do see is guardsman all over the place generating CP for factions with good expensive stratigems. Don't screw over guard because of soup being good. Simply make it so that CP can only be used by detachments with the same keyword that generated it and you will see 80% of guard melt out of list overnight. So <blood angel> cannot use CP generated by <cadia>. It will also bring up the power level of every single xenos codex instantly and level out the power of imperium, chaos and eldar

Yes you do, mono guard is quite well and has won GTs recently. In the running for best player in the world is a mono guard player.

The codex is incredibly strong, and is behind only Eldar, Dark Eldar, Custodes (because they can exploit guard), and Imperial Knights (because they can exploit guard).

**KurtAngle2**

Kill Team points costs are probably indicative of expected changes in CA 2018...I'd check them if I were you