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Trollbert wrote: As a rather casual player, for me it's the Hemlock Wraithfighter.
- The -2 to hit is really strong since you can't waste your lascannons on it when 3 wave serpents are waiting to be shot as well with -1.
- The autohits on the weapon is really stupid as well. The only way to deal with it with units from the Chaos Space Marines is charging it with a melee unit. If I'm unlucky, a Daemon Prince dies in overwatch or might get 4-6 dmg on average rolls. If I fail to kill it, I can't charge it again since it's dead then.
- The degrading BF on a platform that only has autohitting weapons is like cheating since it isn't even expensive for what it can do.
- It can snipe charaters that are not heavily protected by chaff and forces me to use me them super defensively.
I'm not contesting that it's a strong unit and it does seem to show up in tournaments somewhat, but I don't think it ranks in top 5 for me.
When I play them, or have them played against me, the way it almost always goes is - thing flies up, does some damage to a few things, now its within the 16" range of its gun, enemy just moves units within 12" of it, kills it. Usually does decent damage on its turn, but it usually doesn't do ~230 points of damage or whatever it costs.
Charging it definitely does not seem like the strat to kill it. And again, i'm not saying its a good unit, it just seems to be a 200+ point unit that's actually worth the cost, and people are used to land raiders and gak that definitely aren't.
There are definitely armies that have no trouble killing a Hemlock Wraithfighter, like Dark Eldar. But some codices don't have (non-melee) anti air units. Some codices only have heavy anti tank weapons without rules to negate to hit penalties for moving, so if the Eldar player doesn't feth up its movement, the Hemlock can stay outside of 12", so you either move your units in 12" and take -1 to hit rolls, or you don't move and still take -1.
Against my CSM, a Hemlock Wraithfighter is hit at BS -2 for the majority of my units for at least 2 turns.
Yeah. I've run against them with Thousand Sons, and usually anything tough/heavily armored that flies up to that army just gets hit with 5,768 smites and dies. If that failed I'd just slap Weaver of Fates on a DP and say "AP-4 autohitting overwatch? Cute." For CSM, I'd think it'd be really hard to position one of those things where oblits/combi-plas termies with Prescience can't drop in and smack them at full BS and probably rerolling 1s to hit/+1 to wound, maybe slapping them twice with the slaanesh strat.
That's still a good trade for the eldar player, isn't it?
Of course, you are right, that kills the Wraithfighter quite easily if you don't get D1 on the oblits. But it costs ~330 points, and up to 3 CP to do so.
Not sure what smiting 5 - 8 times costs on TS, but it should be even more.
I'd say that still counts as really hard to kill.
Edit: Calculating the expected damage gives the following result:
A prescienced unit of Obliterators within 12" scores 8 hits, always wounds on 3+, so 5.3 wounds. On average, the Hemlock still has a 5+ save, so that's 3.5 unsaved wounds with D2 on average. Spirit Stones save 1 wound per 6 total damage received, so the Hemlock loses exactly 50% of it's HP. With the VotlW Stratagem, you get 6.6 wounds for 4.4 unsaved wounds or 8.8 damage.
So for ~330 points, 1 of my best psychic powers and 3 CP spent on two of my best stratagems, I can kill it in one turn, if the sum of the rolls for the random damage is 4 or higher. And i can reroll one of the two dice for that.
Or if you like, 310 points for 6 combi-plas terminators with prescience and in some kind of reroll 1s to hit aura with VOTLW deals 11/12 damage on average to it. a little over 66% points return in a single shooting attack is generally considered pretty great. For reference, one of the best units in the game (A dissie ravager) shooting arguably its most perfect target (a unit of primaris marines) gets under 50% points return. And that is over-the-moon amazing.
And again - I'm not at all arguing that it's not a strong unit. I just don't think it's so powerful even compared to the most direct competition it has - the Crimson Hunter - that it should ever be in the running for top five best unit.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
If we gave every army a Dark Reaper equivalent, that would be like fighting fire with oil.
Yeah, but there is also the fact that plenty of armies have a way to counter a big 200+ point flying thing, and after the Stormraven Craze and with the current dark eldar meta, a lot of people are bringing anti flyer stuff.
-Tsons charge it with princes who have 4++ base and don't particularly care about its overwatch
-Admech hose it with +2 to hit rerolling 1s Onager Dunecrawlers
-orks and nurgle just completely ignore it, since its super-shmancy guns only kill a couple boyz/plaguebearers a turn and it can't hold objectives
-imperials smashcap/bananabike it to death either ignoring overwatch or just tanking it on a 3++
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trollbert wrote: You didn't factor in the 120 points jump pack sorcerer. That makes it a ~50% for the termis.
I'm assuming you're just dropping them into your deployment zone or somewhere in the vicinity of your lines because, again, 16" range on the plane.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/26 16:49:55
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
If we gave every army a Dark Reaper equivalent, that would be like fighting fire with oil.
Yeah, but there is also the fact that plenty of armies have a way to counter a big 200+ point flying thing, and after the Stormraven Craze and with the current dark eldar meta, a lot of people are bringing anti flyer stuff.
-Tsons charge it with princes who have 4++ base and don't particularly care about its overwatch -Admech hose it with +2 to hit rerolling 1s Onager Dunecrawlers -orks and nurgle just completely ignore it, since its super-shmancy guns only kill a couple boyz/plaguebearers a turn and it can't hold objectives -imperials smashcap/bananabike it to death either ignoring overwatch or just tanking it on a 3++
Like I said, it's good, really hard to counter by some codices and balanced against others.
Slamguinious is strong but it's 1 model. It'll kill what it gets into melee with, probably, but again, one model.
Custode Bikes are the new hotness. They're simply too good.
-Fast, have fly -Good invulnerable saves -High toughness -High wounds -Great stratagems (extra attacks, deep strike, out of phase charge, etc) -Huge dice volumes in shooting -Beast mode melee -Objective Secured
So drop in your 2+/2+ 32 wound, 2+/4++ T6 bike squad, drop about 96 shots into something, and charge something else. Don't worry if you fail, you can charge on your opponents turn, too.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/07/26 17:17:36
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Slamguinious is strong but it's 1 model. It'll kill what it gets into melee with, probably, but again, one model.
You can have three slamguinius in your army. First has angels wings, second has the hammer of baal, third is a regular one with JP and TH. Or as many as you wish, up to the point limit of the game, if you dont play with the rule of 3 same datasheets.
Marmatag wrote: Slamguinious is strong but it's 1 model. It'll kill what it gets into melee with, probably, but again, one model.
You can have three slamguinius in your army. First has angels wings, second has the hammer of baal, third is a regular one with JP and TH. Or as many as you wish, up to the point limit of the game, if you dont play with the rule of 3 same datasheets.
It costs about 8 CP to make slammy work. Half of his killing power is predicated on using the strat that works when he dies.
Either he works for one thing or you are running a guard CP battery. Nerf the battery and Captain Slammy is no where near as powerful.
Also, those ravagers aren't shooting vanilla primaris marines, they are shooting deathwatch, aggressors or incpetors (if you are brave enough to put them on the table) which really improves their cost per kill.
I also agree with the poster that said the individual units really aren't a problem but it's the combos. Dark eldar vs. doomed targets, reapers/spears with ynarri, captain slammy/custode bikers/knights with guard CP farm, cultists + abaddon, powers and strats, oblits with marks and strats and powers. The really powerful combos seem to break the game, not just the powerful units.
I fething hate that name (along with the other one). If I could personally destroy every iteration of that model when people use that name I'd be a much happier man.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
I think we're in a pretty good state at the moment. "Broken Units" are few and far between and as someone has stated the really powerful units rely on a combo of stratagems... so they are partly self limiting due to the fact you have a limited pot of CPs, and can only use each stratagem once per phase.
Custodes Shield Captains on Jetbikes are, IMO, 15-20 points undercosted. They are far from broken though - and they are wonderful models to build, paint and use.
I don't think they are any more broken than Admech Stygies Dragoons though. They infiltrate, are fast, are T6 with 3w each, are pretty cheap and can be given a stratagem that means they hit on 2's and any roll of 4+ does 2 extra hits. Plus they have a natural -1 to hit and often are -2 to hit.
Not broken but very scary.
Luckily the models are wildly $ expensive, come in boxes of 1 and are a total PITA to build and paint!!!
I fething hate that name (along with the other one). If I could personally destroy every iteration of that model when people use that name I'd be a much happier man.
I just call them smash captains.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 10:23:06
TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
Company Commander with Grand Strategist and Kurov's Aquilla. No he doesn't kill anything, but he's something like 30 points and is the backbone of so many Imperial tournament armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 10:43:28
I fething hate that name (along with the other one). If I could personally destroy every iteration of that model when people use that name I'd be a much happier man.
I just call them smash captains.
I despise the name in some kind of petty way I simply cannot describe. It smacks of internet groupthink and this "nu-GW fan" courtesy of places like Reddit that seems to only know the background of the game via memes and 1D4chan. Anytime I see that name you know exactly what kind of person you're getting.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
I actually think this unit sucks, because IK shooting sucks.
The BA smash capt has one big downside: one use only. It's basically a suicide unit. Also, melee invulns make him useless.
As for the knight crusader (with thermal cannon), against my two armies (DG and Orks) it's simply a model that takes away one or two of my units every turn and there is nothing I can do about that because it cannot be locked in combat, cannot be hit with smite because it can hide behind screens and thanks to rotating ion shields it can sit through a ton of dedicated anti-tank shooting as well. The two new knights do that as well, but at a much higher cost and they need to get closer to do so.
The smash captain is an entirely different thing. It's pretty much a delete button for the unit most dangerous to the imperial player's plans. Melee invuls are making the entire thing only slightly more risky. For example, a foetid bloat-drone that usually very hard to shoot down in a single turn and is deadly to assault, but can just be one-shotted by a single BA smash captain with close to no risk. I don't think "remove an enemy unit from the table" is healthy thing for the game, no matter how many CP it costs.
Neither is game-warping or meta-defining like some things that have already gotten the axe from GW this edition, but in game against them they feel notoriously 'unfair' to play against since there is just nothing you can do about them except take the damage.
I'm all for powerful models and units, as long as there is risk and counter-play involved. The stuff from my list provides neither.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 10:59:45
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Marmatag wrote: Slamguinious is strong but it's 1 model. It'll kill what it gets into melee with, probably, but again, one model.
You can have three slamguinius in your army. First has angels wings, second has the hammer of baal, third is a regular one with JP and TH. Or as many as you wish, up to the point limit of the game, if you dont play with the rule of 3 same datasheets.
But due to how strategems, warlord traits and relics works 2k or 10k oniy 1 is really scary.
tneva82 wrote: But due to how strategems, warlord traits and relics works 2k or 10k oniy 1 is really scary.
The double was fairly common - one deepstrike, one repositioning up the board, with mephiston running third spot in a supreme command.
A lot of the CPs are tied up in the 'on attack' actions such as the double combat phase so if you lose one on the way in you'll still have enough CPs back to fuel the other.
bananathug wrote: It costs about 8 CP to make slammy work. Half of his killing power is predicated on using the strat that works when he dies.
8 ?? Death visions of sanguinius is 1, 3D6 charge is 2, red rampage is 1, only in death does duty end is 2. Thats 6.
Odds are that you’re eating more than one relic, so the wing will cost some amount more.
Also you may need to honor the chapter instead of only in death, costing an extra, or use both.
And considering each hit is a notable good AP 3 (or 4) damage, it’s likely you’ll want to burn a reroll on the inevitable 1-to-wound.
All told he could eat up to 4 pregame CP on top of up to 9 in a stars-aligned situation. That’s an entire brigade worth of CP to get one unit to do his job really well for one turn.
Also if he is taking artisan then he’s dropping warlord point on the enemy doorstep gift-wrapped.
He’s definitely good but doesn’t really belong on the same list as the others that are just super-stout without eating much or any CP.
bibotot wrote: Montarion and Magnus. 445/470 points of these guys can conceivably destroy 1500 points of the entire opponent's army, or tank them despite getting focused down for 5 turns.
I almost spit out my coffee at this one because they are hot garbage. Magnus is complete and total ass in the game and is one of the weakest lords of war because he can be countered so easily. People think the primarchs are good until you remind them they are only 3+ with T7, thats not that impressive things dont becomes scary until T8. Sure if you go first magnus can screw gak up, but you just back up and unload on him.
No here is a list of "broken" units in no particular order
Guliman
Russ( any variant)
Custode jetbikes
Dark reapers
Necron vault specifically powers
Basalisks(Boarder line broken they kinda just sit right on the fence and rock back and forth.)
Im not gonna even put knights because they are so easy to counter, vostoyan shadow sword, enjoy a volcano cannon hitting on 2s rerolling, wounding on 2's rerolling
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 13:32:17
bananathug wrote: It costs about 8 CP to make slammy work. Half of his killing power is predicated on using the strat that works when he dies.
8 ?? Death visions of sanguinius is 1, 3D6 charge is 2, red rampage is 1, only in death does duty end is 2. Thats 6.
All told he could eat up to 4 pregame CP on top of up to 9 in a stars-aligned situation. That’s an entire brigade worth of CP to get one unit to do his job really well for one turn.
This is one of the reasons why (plug!!) my upcoming tournament has an army composition rule set to limit CPs to soupy armies. Like, you can still take soup but it gets watered down!
The rules are...
Your army can consist of up to three detachments, and may include duplicate detachments, however:
One detachment in your army must be a Battalion, Brigade or Super-Heavy Detachment. It will be marked as your “Primary Detachment” and must contain your warlord.
Your Primary Detachment determines your "Army Keywords" - which will include all Faction and Subfaction Keywords. An example of Army Keywords might be IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, CADIA
You will only gain Command Points from detachments which exactly match your Army Keywords. You can take as many non-matching detachments as you like, but they will all give you a command benefit of 0 CPs. There are no exceptions to this rule.
If all detachments in your army have the same Army Keywords, you gain +3 CPs for being Battleforged. Otherwise, you do not gain the standard +3 CP for Battleforged.
Looking at the list that won a recent tournament which took 3 smash captains and 3 dawneagle captains, it would start with 12 isntead of 17 cps. It's still playable, but the power is diluted. You don't get to do all the tricks all the time.
edit - sorry just realised this is a bit offtopic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 13:49:22
TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
I fething hate that name (along with the other one). If I could personally destroy every iteration of that model when people use that name I'd be a much happier man.
I just call them smash captains.
I despise the name in some kind of petty way I simply cannot describe. It smacks of internet groupthink and this "nu-GW fan" courtesy of places like Reddit that seems to only know the background of the game via memes and 1D4chan. Anytime I see that name you know exactly what kind of person you're getting.
Absolutely, worse still is people who still use "soup", and even worse is when it's literally one allied detachment. Though I'm not convinced Dakka is a better community than Reddit in 2018, even if the competitive sub mods are absolute TFG morons, Dakka has some less than admirable traits as well.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
I fething hate that name (along with the other one). If I could personally destroy every iteration of that model when people use that name I'd be a much happier man.
I just call them smash captains.
I despise the name in some kind of petty way I simply cannot describe. It smacks of internet groupthink and this "nu-GW fan" courtesy of places like Reddit that seems to only know the background of the game via memes and 1D4chan. Anytime I see that name you know exactly what kind of person you're getting.
Absolutely, worse still is people who still use "soup", and even worse is when it's literally one allied detachment. Though I'm not convinced Dakka is a better community than Reddit in 2018, even if the competitive sub mods are absolute TFG morons, Dakka has some less than admirable traits as well.
Wait are people upset that people called him smashf-cker prime? Dude I loved chapter master smashF-cker prime and the smash crew back in 7th it was hilarious.
Also what's wrong with soup? I don't see the issue with a fluffy soup list.
Leviathan dreadnoughts with two stormcannon arrays. Comes at twice the price of a dreadnought, but compared to a dread it has:
2 x wounds
+1 T
2+ save
4+ invul
Far above 2 x firepower (20 str 8, -2 ap, dmg 2 shots - plus two heavy flamers)
So it should be comfortably above twice the price of two dreads, since it is better both offensively and defensively. Only downside it has is 24” range, and CC... if you’re able to get there.
bananathug wrote: It costs about 8 CP to make slammy work. Half of his killing power is predicated on using the strat that works when he dies.
8 ?? Death visions of sanguinius is 1, 3D6 charge is 2, red rampage is 1, only in death does duty end is 2. Thats 6.
All told he could eat up to 4 pregame CP on top of up to 9 in a stars-aligned situation. That’s an entire brigade worth of CP to get one unit to do his job really well for one turn.
This is one of the reasons why (plug!!) my upcoming tournament has an army composition rule set to limit CPs to soupy armies. Like, you can still take soup but it gets watered down!
The rules are...
Your army can consist of up to three detachments, and may include duplicate detachments, however:
One detachment in your army must be a Battalion, Brigade or Super-Heavy Detachment. It will be marked as your “Primary Detachment” and must contain your warlord.
Your Primary Detachment determines your "Army Keywords" - which will include all Faction and Subfaction Keywords. An example of Army Keywords might be IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, CADIA
You will only gain Command Points from detachments which exactly match your Army Keywords. You can take as many non-matching detachments as you like, but they will all give you a command benefit of 0 CPs. There are no exceptions to this rule.
If all detachments in your army have the same Army Keywords, you gain +3 CPs for being Battleforged. Otherwise, you do not gain the standard +3 CP for Battleforged.
Looking at the list that won a recent tournament which took 3 smash captains and 3 dawneagle captains, it would start with 12 isntead of 17 cps. It's still playable, but the power is diluted. You don't get to do all the tricks all the time.
edit - sorry just realised this is a bit offtopic.
I hope you don't get even more similarity in the lists you do get. For instance with those restrictions you won't get an eldar bike army with an outrider detachment from all 3 elf factions. Which would be cool and have a hell of an alpha strike but wouldn't be OP. You won't get the 6 patrol detachment dark elf raiding party thats in the book but no one ever gets to use. You won't get 9 carnafexes and 2 hive tyarnts. Admittedly ypu probably weren't going to get those any way but now you can't.
I mention this becisse I am wondering if the restrictions they have to make each chapter unique actully reduce the chapters and sub factions we see. Obsidian Rose would be a great kabal to take write of the living muse with but you can't. I would like try a cabal other than prophets of flesh but the way I play I really want the Vex mask.
Any I would like to see more zany combinations instead of stock combos all the time. And the same "best" sub-factions in every list.
"I feel sorry for the non aliatoc Eldar"
Sorry had to laugh at that. #1 because Eldar are still very strong even without Aliatoc even without -1 to hit.
6+FNP does them just fine and is better in a lot of situations.
I feel sorry for you having to play against anyone playing that busted army trait on a regular basis. I assure you - you'd still lose to eldar more often than not even without the trait.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
20000+ points
