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What are the most broken units right now, say, top five? It used to be conscript spam, and before that it was ravenwing or the storm plane things. I'm having a hard time keeping the 'meta' as it is straight. Where are we at in the game right now?

Erm....

Custodes on Jetbikes

Autarch Skyrunner

Slamguinius

Dark Reapers

Knight Titans

Not sure I'd put knights too far up there. They're good don't get me wrong. But I don't think they deserve that honor. Also, what the heck is a slamingus?

 chimeara wrote:
Not sure I'd put knights too far up there. They're good don't get me wrong. But I don't think they deserve that honor. Also, what the heck is a slamingus?

Behold the cheesiest Space Marine captain to exist this edition! https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Chapter_Master_Slamguinius#8th_edition_and_the_beauty_that_followed

Essentially!

129pts 2+ 2+ 4 4 5 4(+1) 9 3+/3++/5+++

Wargear
Relic: Angel's Wing (jump pack)
Storm Shield
Thunder Hammer
Bolt Pistol
Frag/Krak grenades

Special Rules
Warlord Trait: Artisan of War
And They Shall Know No Fear
Rites of Battle
Chapter Tactics (The Red Thirst)
The Black Rage
Fly
Deep Strike

Ravager w/disintigrators
Eldar joust bikes
PBC
Grotesques
Guiliman

These are some of the most powerful units I've come across, they also wreck me.

Gulliman isn't partiuclarly powerful by himself, but he's an effective force multiplier. which is true of a LOT of the powerful units in 8th edition.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Autarch Skyrunner

Snuh? That's going to require some explanation.

Montarion and Magnus. 445/470 points of these guys can conceivably destroy 1500 points of the entire opponent's army, or tank them despite getting focused down for 5 turns.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Autarch Skyrunner

Snuh? That's going to require some explanation.

Fastest character in the game, can also load up on tons of weapons to double his effectiveness on being on a bike.

6W, T4, and 4 S6 AP3-, D2 Attacks (Hitting on 2+, Re-Rolling 1's) on the Charge (only S3 when not on the charge) that is immune to Overwatch, has a 3+/4++ (Can be boosted to 2+/3++ if a Warlock Protects them) 16" movement

4 Shuriken shots, and a Meltagun shot

Can even make it so that with warlocks makes those shooting at him have -3 to their dice roll.

Listing somethings stats is only a list of their stats.

You need to illustrate how such a unit remotely compares to the other ones listed in gameplay.

For example, an Autarch is never going to kill something important like Slamguinius, be impossible to kill like a Shield Captain, or kill entire armies like Knights or daemon Primarchs.

So what's he doing that's actually broken?

 Asherian Command wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Autarch Skyrunner

Snuh? That's going to require some explanation.

Fastest character in the game, can also load up on tons of weapons to double his effectiveness on being on a bike.

6W, T4, and 4 S6 AP3-, D2 Attacks (Hitting on 2+, Re-Rolling 1's) on the Charge (only S3 when not on the charge) that is immune to Overwatch, has a 3+/4++ (Can be boosted to 2+/3++ if a Warlock Protects them) 16" movement

4 Shuriken shots, and a Meltagun shot

Can even make it so that with warlocks makes those shooting at him have -3 to their dice roll.

Tau Commanders can move 40" though.

There aren't that many units that are broken in their own right at the moment; most of the ones people like to bring up are broken because the ally mechanics are badly written (and let you bring the best relics from three or four books in one list) or because some idiot thought move-again psychic powers were cool (and let Shining Spears charge the back of your deployment zone top of turn one).

bibotot wrote:
Montarion and Magnus. 445/470 points of these guys can conceivably destroy 1500 points of the entire opponent's army, or tank them despite getting focused down for 5 turns.

Spoken like someone who's never put Magnus on the table in a competitive setting before...

Autarch on Jetbike is barely par for the course compared to some of the nastyness available.

Maybe the poster got demolished by one wielding a relic Laser lance, as he turns into a bit of a wrecking ball with that, but still just a 1 hit wonder who dies easy. And you have to take a Saim-Hann det. to take it so you lose out on more Alaitoc.

-----

Im gonna head in a different direction and say that IG infantry and officers are still among the most broken, and not just because they can be used to CP farm.

Guardsmen should be 5 ppm minimum, and officers should be on the order of 40-60 points. Compare a 30 point Company Commander to a 55 point Warlock for example...

 Arachnofiend wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Montarion and Magnus. 445/470 points of these guys can conceivably destroy 1500 points of the entire opponent's army, or tank them despite getting focused down for 5 turns.

Spoken like someone who's never put Magnus on the table in a competitive setting before...

A lot of the time when someone says "this unit is broken" what they MEAN is "this unit is capable of doing some stuff that happens to hard counter exactly how I insist on playing and I refuse to adapt to it at all"

Foetid bloat drones with plaguespitters T7 W10 autohit after advancing 10"+D6, 5++, 5+++. Can still shoot after falling back, because of FLY, autohitting 2D6. Only strength and move degrades. 158 pts.

Plague burst crawlers T8 W12, 5++, 5+++. Can shoot D6 shots 48" without LOS S8 AP-2 D3. Two shots 36" S8 AP-4 D6. 146 pts.

Company commander with grand strategist and kurovs aquila for 30 pts. Lets you regain a CP on a 5+ for every CP you spend. The aquila does the same for every stratagem your opponent uses. Usually there are two, one is the strategist, the other has the aquila.

Knight commander pask in an executioner with lascannon and plasma sponsons. Re-rollable 2D6 36" plasma shots with tank order, plus 2D3 sponson plasma shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s (if you didnt move, or less than half your movement value), which means you can safely overcharge. Even if you roll double 1s its only 1 MW which you can repair at the start of your next turn with a stratagem. 219 pts.

Genestealers, can move, advance and charge. Roll 3 dice for advance, pick highest, or re-roll failed charge rolls, depending on hive fleet choice. 25" average threat range. They get free AP-3 weapons. Any wound roll of 6 is AP-4. 4 attacks per model when 10 or more models, 5++ inv sv. All of this for 12 pts. per model. If thats not enough they have a stratagem which lets them gain CP when they kill a character, use these gained CP to fight again...... And they can move 98" per turn.

I'm going to say none. Everything that seems incredibly powerful usually requires a combination of Psychic powers, stratagems and aura abilities to pull off.

I mean you might as well add Slaaneshi Cultists to this list because 40 Cultists with Prescience, a nearby Daemon Prince/Lord, Veterans of the Long War and Endless Kacophany will murderise most things, and Tide of Traitors is a good way to make sure they do it twice. But they're still just Cultists.

In terms of units that actually carry games ON THEIR OWN, ie with minimal support...

1. Custode Bike Captain/SlamGuinius. They do the same thing in the same soup lists so they get one entry, sorry.
2. Grotesques/Talos in Prophets of Flesh. Same deal - very similar stuff, just a way to bypass the rule of 3 and spam more of them. I do not think GW properly anticipated how busted PoF was when they designed it, it should NOT be +1 invuln save. Reroll invuln saves of 1 maybe.
3. Dark Reapers. Note that shining spears are not on here, because outside ynnari theyre no great shakes.
4. Daemon prince, particularly of tzeentch but also the regular kind.
5. Knight Titans with a "?" Absoultely dominated the ATC. because of the list tailoring aspect, or because knights are actually bonkers strong? time will tell. but that's why they're down at 5 with an *, if we knew ATC performance was their regular performance they'd probably be #1.

 Imateria wrote:
I'm going to say none. Everything that seems incredibly powerful usually requires a combination of Psychic powers, stratagems and aura abilities to pull off.

I actually agree with this overall. A great example is Eldar Shining Spears, which are a great unit on their own, but the things that make them potentially nasty require specific traits/stratagems and MULTIPLE characters successfully casting 2-3 powers on them. That's a pretty big investment and doesn't always pay off. The Runes of Battle powers Warlocks have are far from guaranteed and seem to fail at least 33% of the time, even with their shenanigans.

What you really should be asking is what the most broken COMBOS are in 8th.
I, for one, have recently decided that 3 Renegade dakka Knights supported by an Arihman/DP Battalion of Tsons with 30 deep striking/fighting twice Tzaagors is my Kryptonite. I have no answers.

-

 Arachnofiend wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Montarion and Magnus. 445/470 points of these guys can conceivably destroy 1500 points of the entire opponent's army, or tank them despite getting focused down for 5 turns.

Spoken like someone who's never put Magnus on the table in a competitive setting before...

Totally agree. The first time I face the new Magnus I simply murdered him with smite, bolters, plague spitters and close combat attacks. He was dead before his player could spend CP on counter-attack.

Magnus is an impressive and powerful psyker and combat monster, but I'd wager a landraider is harder to kill.

My personal list:

- Knight Crusader
- TS Daemon Prince
- Hemlock Wraithfighter
- Commander with Kurov's Aquilla
- TH/JP Captain

For all those units I feel like their respective players are getting highly efficient units without any downsides or counter-play to them outside of bringing hard counters which are useless in most other games.

No golden bikes in my meta, so those might knock one of those off the list.

As a rather casual player, for me it's the Hemlock Wraithfighter.

- The -2 to hit is really strong since you can't waste your lascannons on it when 3 wave serpents are waiting to be shot as well with -1.
- The autohits on the weapon is really stupid as well. The only way to deal with it with units from the Chaos Space Marines is charging it with a melee unit. If I'm unlucky, a Daemon Prince dies in overwatch or might get 4-6 dmg on average rolls. If I fail to kill it, I can't charge it again since it's dead then.
- The degrading BF on a platform that only has autohitting weapons is like cheating since it isn't even expensive for what it can do.
- It can snipe charaters that are not heavily protected by chaff and forces me to use me them super defensively.

"Knight Crusader"

I actually think this unit sucks, because IK shooting sucks.

The BA smash capt has one big downside: one use only. It's basically a suicide unit. Also, melee invulns make him useless.

Trollbert wrote:
As a rather casual player, for me it's the Hemlock Wraithfighter.

- The -2 to hit is really strong since you can't waste your lascannons on it when 3 wave serpents are waiting to be shot as well with -1.
- The autohits on the weapon is really stupid as well. The only way to deal with it with units from the Chaos Space Marines is charging it with a melee unit. If I'm unlucky, a Daemon Prince dies in overwatch or might get 4-6 dmg on average rolls. If I fail to kill it, I can't charge it again since it's dead then.
- The degrading BF on a platform that only has autohitting weapons is like cheating since it isn't even expensive for what it can do.
- It can snipe charaters that are not heavily protected by chaff and forces me to use me them super defensively.

That's mostly an Alaitoc problem, not a Hemlock problem. For those of us who run other Craftworlds (Iyanden for me), 210pts is about right for the platform. Yes, it's weapon autohits, but it only has one weapon. I don't want to see unit prices inflated because of Craftworld trait bonuses.

Trollbert wrote:
As a rather casual player, for me it's the Hemlock Wraithfighter.

- The -2 to hit is really strong since you can't waste your lascannons on it when 3 wave serpents are waiting to be shot as well with -1.
- The autohits on the weapon is really stupid as well. The only way to deal with it with units from the Chaos Space Marines is charging it with a melee unit. If I'm unlucky, a Daemon Prince dies in overwatch or might get 4-6 dmg on average rolls. If I fail to kill it, I can't charge it again since it's dead then.
- The degrading BF on a platform that only has autohitting weapons is like cheating since it isn't even expensive for what it can do.
- It can snipe charaters that are not heavily protected by chaff and forces me to use me them super defensively.

I'm not contesting that it's a strong unit and it does seem to show up in tournaments somewhat, but I don't think it ranks in top 5 for me.

When I play them, or have them played against me, the way it almost always goes is - thing flies up, does some damage to a few things, now its within the 16" range of its gun, enemy just moves units within 12" of it, kills it. Usually does decent damage on its turn, but it usually doesn't do ~230 points of damage or whatever it costs.

Charging it definitely does not seem like the strat to kill it. And again, i'm not saying its a good unit, it just seems to be a 200+ point unit that's actually worth the cost, and people are used to land raiders and gak that definitely aren't.

 bullyboy wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
As a rather casual player, for me it's the Hemlock Wraithfighter.

- The -2 to hit is really strong since you can't waste your lascannons on it when 3 wave serpents are waiting to be shot as well with -1.
- The autohits on the weapon is really stupid as well. The only way to deal with it with units from the Chaos Space Marines is charging it with a melee unit. If I'm unlucky, a Daemon Prince dies in overwatch or might get 4-6 dmg on average rolls. If I fail to kill it, I can't charge it again since it's dead then.
- The degrading BF on a platform that only has autohitting weapons is like cheating since it isn't even expensive for what it can do.
- It can snipe charaters that are not heavily protected by chaff and forces me to use me them super defensively.

That's mostly an Alaitoc problem, not a Hemlock problem. For those of us who run other Craftworlds (Iyanden for me), 210pts is about right for the platform. Yes, it's weapon autohits, but it only has one weapon. I don't want to see unit prices inflated because of Craftworld trait bonuses.

I feel bad for Eldar player's not playing Alaitoc (i.e. not being an donkey-cave in friendly games), but that doesn't change that a Hemlock Wraithfighter is far too cheap for what it can do (as Alaitoc).

Arguably, it has 3 weapons since it can has two of those autohit D-scythes, can use Smite and gives -2 Morale in a fuckhuge bubble (12" radius is ~ 1/6th of a normal table).

 bullyboy wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
As a rather casual player, for me it's the Hemlock Wraithfighter.

- The -2 to hit is really strong since you can't waste your lascannons on it when 3 wave serpents are waiting to be shot as well with -1.
- The autohits on the weapon is really stupid as well. The only way to deal with it with units from the Chaos Space Marines is charging it with a melee unit. If I'm unlucky, a Daemon Prince dies in overwatch or might get 4-6 dmg on average rolls. If I fail to kill it, I can't charge it again since it's dead then.
- The degrading BF on a platform that only has autohitting weapons is like cheating since it isn't even expensive for what it can do.
- It can snipe charaters that are not heavily protected by chaff and forces me to use me them super defensively.

That's mostly an Alaitoc problem, not a Hemlock problem. For those of us who run other Craftworlds (Iyanden for me), 210pts is about right for the platform. Yes, it's weapon autohits, but it only has one weapon. I don't want to see unit prices inflated because of Craftworld trait bonuses.

And arguably even with Alaitoc it should only be getting -1 to be hit after the first turn. It's guns are only 16" range and Powers are only 18" range. Meaning that to be effective, it has to get close enough for plenty of enemy units to move within 12" and outright ignore the Alaitoc -1

I play 2 of them and it is not uncommon to lose 1 or both of them before the 3rd turn. Granted, I use them to block movement as well, so I am usually front and center with them. But even using them to go up the flanks there should be other units close by to get within 12"

-

Trollbert wrote:

I feel bad for Eldar player's not playing Alaitoc (i.e. not being an donkey-cave in friendly games), but that doesn't change that a Hemlock Wraithfighter is far too cheap for what it can do (as Alaitoc).

But the real problem is the stupid armywide -1 to hit. That trait should have never existed. I really hope they get rid of those in the next CA, would fix a lot of balance issues at one fell swoop.

the_scotsman wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
As a rather casual player, for me it's the Hemlock Wraithfighter.

- The -2 to hit is really strong since you can't waste your lascannons on it when 3 wave serpents are waiting to be shot as well with -1.
- The autohits on the weapon is really stupid as well. The only way to deal with it with units from the Chaos Space Marines is charging it with a melee unit. If I'm unlucky, a Daemon Prince dies in overwatch or might get 4-6 dmg on average rolls. If I fail to kill it, I can't charge it again since it's dead then.
- The degrading BF on a platform that only has autohitting weapons is like cheating since it isn't even expensive for what it can do.
- It can snipe charaters that are not heavily protected by chaff and forces me to use me them super defensively.

I'm not contesting that it's a strong unit and it does seem to show up in tournaments somewhat, but I don't think it ranks in top 5 for me.

When I play them, or have them played against me, the way it almost always goes is - thing flies up, does some damage to a few things, now its within the 16" range of its gun, enemy just moves units within 12" of it, kills it. Usually does decent damage on its turn, but it usually doesn't do ~230 points of damage or whatever it costs.

Charging it definitely does not seem like the strat to kill it. And again, i'm not saying its a good unit, it just seems to be a 200+ point unit that's actually worth the cost, and people are used to land raiders and gak that definitely aren't.

There are definitely armies that have no trouble killing a Hemlock Wraithfighter, like Dark Eldar. But some codices don't have (non-melee) anti air units. Some codices only have heavy anti tank weapons without rules to negate to hit penalties for moving, so if the Eldar player doesn't feth up its movement, the Hemlock can stay outside of 12", so you either move your units in 12" and take -1 to hit rolls, or you don't move and still take -1.

Against my CSM, a Hemlock Wraithfighter is hit at BS -2 for the majority of my units for at least 2 turns.

Trollbert wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
As a rather casual player, for me it's the Hemlock Wraithfighter.

- The -2 to hit is really strong since you can't waste your lascannons on it when 3 wave serpents are waiting to be shot as well with -1.
- The autohits on the weapon is really stupid as well. The only way to deal with it with units from the Chaos Space Marines is charging it with a melee unit. If I'm unlucky, a Daemon Prince dies in overwatch or might get 4-6 dmg on average rolls. If I fail to kill it, I can't charge it again since it's dead then.
- The degrading BF on a platform that only has autohitting weapons is like cheating since it isn't even expensive for what it can do.
- It can snipe charaters that are not heavily protected by chaff and forces me to use me them super defensively.

I'm not contesting that it's a strong unit and it does seem to show up in tournaments somewhat, but I don't think it ranks in top 5 for me.

When I play them, or have them played against me, the way it almost always goes is - thing flies up, does some damage to a few things, now its within the 16" range of its gun, enemy just moves units within 12" of it, kills it. Usually does decent damage on its turn, but it usually doesn't do ~230 points of damage or whatever it costs.

Charging it definitely does not seem like the strat to kill it. And again, i'm not saying its a good unit, it just seems to be a 200+ point unit that's actually worth the cost, and people are used to land raiders and gak that definitely aren't.

There are definitely armies that have no trouble killing a Hemlock Wraithfighter, like Dark Eldar. But some codices don't have (non-melee) anti air units. Some codices only have heavy anti tank weapons without rules to negate to hit penalties for moving, so if the Eldar player doesn't feth up its movement, the Hemlock can stay outside of 12", so you either move your units in 12" and take -1 to hit rolls, or you don't move and still take -1.

Against my CSM, a Hemlock Wraithfighter is hit at BS -2 for the majority of my units for at least 2 turns.

Yeah. I've run against them with Thousand Sons, and usually anything tough/heavily armored that flies up to that army just gets hit with 5,768 smites and dies. If that failed I'd just slap Weaver of Fates on a DP and say "AP-4 autohitting overwatch? Cute." For CSM, I'd think it'd be really hard to position one of those things where oblits/combi-plas termies with Prescience can't drop in and smack them at full BS and probably rerolling 1s to hit/+1 to wound, maybe slapping them twice with the slaanesh strat.

the_scotsman wrote:

Trollbert wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
As a rather casual player, for me it's the Hemlock Wraithfighter.

- The -2 to hit is really strong since you can't waste your lascannons on it when 3 wave serpents are waiting to be shot as well with -1.
- The autohits on the weapon is really stupid as well. The only way to deal with it with units from the Chaos Space Marines is charging it with a melee unit. If I'm unlucky, a Daemon Prince dies in overwatch or might get 4-6 dmg on average rolls. If I fail to kill it, I can't charge it again since it's dead then.
- The degrading BF on a platform that only has autohitting weapons is like cheating since it isn't even expensive for what it can do.
- It can snipe charaters that are not heavily protected by chaff and forces me to use me them super defensively.

I'm not contesting that it's a strong unit and it does seem to show up in tournaments somewhat, but I don't think it ranks in top 5 for me.

When I play them, or have them played against me, the way it almost always goes is - thing flies up, does some damage to a few things, now its within the 16" range of its gun, enemy just moves units within 12" of it, kills it. Usually does decent damage on its turn, but it usually doesn't do ~230 points of damage or whatever it costs.

Charging it definitely does not seem like the strat to kill it. And again, i'm not saying its a good unit, it just seems to be a 200+ point unit that's actually worth the cost, and people are used to land raiders and gak that definitely aren't.

There are definitely armies that have no trouble killing a Hemlock Wraithfighter, like Dark Eldar. But some codices don't have (non-melee) anti air units. Some codices only have heavy anti tank weapons without rules to negate to hit penalties for moving, so if the Eldar player doesn't feth up its movement, the Hemlock can stay outside of 12", so you either move your units in 12" and take -1 to hit rolls, or you don't move and still take -1.

Against my CSM, a Hemlock Wraithfighter is hit at BS -2 for the majority of my units for at least 2 turns.

Yeah. I've run against them with Thousand Sons, and usually anything tough/heavily armored that flies up to that army just gets hit with 5,768 smites and dies. If that failed I'd just slap Weaver of Fates on a DP and say "AP-4 autohitting overwatch? Cute." For CSM, I'd think it'd be really hard to position one of those things where oblits/combi-plas termies with Prescience can't drop in and smack them at full BS and probably rerolling 1s to hit/+1 to wound, maybe slapping them twice with the slaanesh strat.

That's still a good trade for the eldar player, isn't it?

Of course, you are right, that kills the Wraithfighter quite easily if you don't get D1 on the oblits. But it costs ~330 points, and up to 3 CP to do so.
Not sure what smiting 5 - 8 times costs on TS, but it should be even more.

I'd say that still counts as really hard to kill.

Edit: Calculating the expected damage gives the following result:
A prescienced unit of Obliterators within 12" scores 8 hits, always wounds on 3+, so 5.3 wounds. On average, the Hemlock still has a 5+ save, so that's 3.5 unsaved wounds with D2 on average. Spirit Stones save 1 wound per 6 total damage received, so the Hemlock loses exactly 50% of it's HP. With the VotlW Stratagem, you get 6.6 wounds for 4.4 unsaved wounds or 8.8 damage.

So for ~330 points, 1 of my best psychic powers and 3 CP spent on two of my best stratagems, I can kill it in one turn, if the sum of the rolls for the random damage is 4 or higher. And i can reroll one of the two dice for that.