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Yes to all of those and yes it often creates very negative experiences unless you can get behind “thats just how the game works do i deal with it”

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Karol wrote:
Not a AoS player, so maybe the question is going to be dumb. But wouldn't something like a double turn create huge problems with armies that can go all in on magic, shoting or getting where they want real fast


Yes, which is part of the problem. Even close combat heavy armies get it good because whilst close combat itself alternates who starts player to player; if you get two turns in a row you can maximise the targets you initiate combat with. You can go for the archers or the weaker units and pick the best fights to win and avoid those you might not come off to well in.

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Wayniac wrote:
Funnily enough everyone I've spoken to don't use the Apocalypse rules at all. They haven't said they hate them but just use normal 40k rules with huge points which I find stupid since the whole point of the Apoc rules is to streamline and speed up big games so they don't take an entire day or more.

I doubt GW will ever get rid of IGOUGO, it's too ingrained in their design philosophy for the main Warhammer games. What I would like the most is for the double turn to become an optional rule so you have the choice to use it.


Did they actually play Apoc or look at the rules? B.c i know a lot that hasn't played but looked at the rules and said "looks bad" and never even tried. About the seed, it heavily does speed it up. We were able to do 2x the points in the same amount of time even with more models on the table. I played nids, with 30 Gargoyles, 100 gants, 60 Hgants, 60 Genestealers, 30+ was warriors/warrior size units (Hive guard, Tyrant guard, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes) and another 12 MC's. In total about 300 models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
Not a AoS player, so maybe the question is going to be dumb. But wouldn't something like a double turn create huge problems with armies that can go all in on magic, shoting or getting where they want real fast. I get that if two bad armies plays vs each other it maybe doesn't matter much. But if someone can, or has to, counter a specific important unit or hero, this creates a very negative expiriance, when some drops down you can't do anything about them getting two turns of doing their thing, other then pray for bad rolls. And the fact that next turn you may get double turn yourself, doesn't matter as much, I think, if your army is already crippled.


It does if the two players are not experienced. Practicing for adepticon even with double turns i still won 90% my games, heck i went 1st more than second b.c they didn't want me to get a double turn (I was using a leafblower style army basically). Normally you don't put yourself in a position that makes you lose the game if they get the double turn. It is very hard to do for new players and for certain armies. But in general you play thinking you will be double turned on and it goes a lot better. I've haven't had a bad double turn in many games b.c of that. Its more just frustrating its in the game at this point.

PS: I practice all learn for the event and even bought an army just for it and now its cancelled

But back onto topic, it feels REALLY bad if you won b.c of the double turn, just for that i can't believe its part of the game, GW is more about the casual player, and double turns hurt them the most.
.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/03/29 16:11:12


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I'm not a fan of it. I've suffered major defeats due to it, and I think it sucks that you can loose the entire game just because you've literally had 1 bad roll. It's another one of those stupid random for the sake of random mechanics I don't much care for.

I've been working on a rules system of my own, as a stepping stone to my own game but atm it's good to 'practice' it on AoS. It uses Command Points as activation points for your units, with alternative unit activation. You still roll for initiative every turn, but that's only to see who gets to activate first. The aim is to cut down on the alpha strike and keep both players in the game at all times as much as possible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/29 16:21:05


 
   
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Karol wrote:
Not a AoS player, so maybe the question is going to be dumb. But wouldn't something like a double turn create huge problems with armies that can go all in on magic, shooting or getting where they want real fast. I get that if two bad armies plays vs each other it maybe doesn't matter much. But if someone can, or has to, counter a specific important unit or hero, this creates a very negative expiriance, when some drops down you can't do anything about them getting two turns of doing their thing, other then pray for bad rolls. And the fact that next turn you may get double turn yourself, doesn't matter as much, I think, if your army is already crippled.
Yes, that is the primary issue. Especially when a skilled player is running said magic/shooting army, a double turn becomes game ending. I would know---that is exactly how my tourney army worked in first edition. It was set up to secure turn choice every game, I would always choose second, and if I won the first initiative roll I basically won the game automatically. In my entire history playing that army only three times did I get the double turn and lose, two were because of 'derp' mistakes on my part. I lost plenty of other times with the army, but they were games where I did not win the double.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
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Karol wrote:
Not a AoS player, so maybe the question is going to be dumb. But wouldn't something like a double turn create huge problems with armies that can go all in on magic, shoting or getting where they want real fast. I get that if two bad armies plays vs each other it maybe doesn't matter much. But if someone can, or has to, counter a specific important unit or hero, this creates a very negative expiriance, when some drops down you can't do anything about them getting two turns of doing their thing, other then pray for bad rolls. And the fact that next turn you may get double turn yourself, doesn't matter as much, I think, if your army is already crippled.


I haven't played against a Disciples of Tzeentch (arguably one of the most magic based factions) too many times, but I found AoS magic doesn't generate tons of damage easily. Even the Smite equivalent, Arcane Bolt, does less damage. Then again, nearly all my Slaves to Darkness army has a +5 resistance to Mortal Wounds with Runic Shields/Armor. So I might be bias. Honestly, I focus on buffing spells for the most part, so I glad to have Double Turns used against me sometimes as I don't have to try and recast the buffs again.

Shooting is straight up annoying since I army has no ranged attacks not counting magic or 'summoning' Warcy Cults. However, I feels like mass Shooting doesn't hit as often as is does in 40k even though I think -1 Rend seems to occur a little bit too often at Range (or I haven't been playing on tables that provide as much Cover as the game is intended). At the same time, I haven't encountered ranged units that weren't push overs in melee. And I think Age of Sigmar is still a primarily melee game. Double shooting makes it a little worst on me, but not by much. Even being focused fired upon, I don't usually lose more than 6 wounds from main units. With Look Out, Sir!, even my weaker Heroes (and I have a few) can survive an double turn onslaught. I don't really think they are force multipliers effective enough to necessarily warrant that amount of resources to take them down. I lose a Sorcerer Lord or Chaos Lord on foot, and I lose Fearlessness (Chaos Undivided) and basically the ability to attack twice (whether and actual double attack or re-roll hits/wounds). Realistically, my army has low damage out put so I don't really do that much damage even with the double attack and they are fairly resilient so I tend not to loose warriors in droves having me fail Bravery checks.

The Double Turn is not equally good across all factions. My army is only really affected by Movement Phase as I have a fairly slow army. For Battleplans (read: Missions) with known static objectives even that doesn't bother me as my Chaos Warriors will run to them and basically form square around them with my Hero Character in the center of the square. My Warriors don't really care to be the ones charging. The job is to be as tough as old boots and hold the ground they have. My knights/Varanguard are a little different in that I would like to have the Initiative to activate them before their target's can activate (AoS has alternating activation for melee combat if you aren't aware). Especially my Cursed Lance Knights which I don't like fielding becuase they need the Charge just to maybe be as good as my Ensorcelled Weapons Knights. In games with moving or unknown objective locations the double turn can really swing the game for me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/29 18:38:45


   
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I wonder if, outside of player skill variation, another thing that has "masked" the doubleturn for a while is the fact that until recently, not all armies were running 2.0 editions. It might be that with many armies running under-powered players losing with them were attributing it more toward having and out of date tome, rather than perhaps getting a double turn used against them.

With the game now fully running with 2.0 rules it might be that eventually more players start to realise that the doubleturn does swing win results very significantly in favour of whoever gets it.

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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

I haven't played against a Disciples of Tzeentch (arguably one of the most magic based factions) too many times, but I found AoS magic doesn't generate tons of damage easily. Even the Smite equivalent, Arcane Bolt, does less damage. Then again, nearly all my Slaves to Darkness army has a +5 resistance to Mortal Wounds with Runic Shields/Armor. So I might be bias. Honestly, I focus on buffing spells for the most part, so I glad to have Double Turns used against me sometimes as I don't have to try and recast the buffs again.


I wasn't thinking about killing stuff with spells, or not just that. I was more thinking about something like summoning. Powerful demons running amok for two turns, and summoning what is best suited for two turns, would be like playing against an army and a half, specialy if your own army doesn't summon.
But am basing this on seeing AoS being played on a table next to me playing w40k, so I doubt what am saying here is super accurate.


So if the double turn mechanic exists there as a gatcha thing, so that even someone with a bad army or bad skill has a chance to win. doesn't it require a real lot of games to be played to feel that way? the chance of getting double turn, and not getting one is the same for all players right? this means someone with a weak army or who is a noob, get the chance to win half the time, but half the time he gets steam rolled even harder. And as others said there are probably difference between armies too. An army that uses its double turn to shuffle some units around or fight an extra melee or two, won't benefit from it as much as one that rises itself up from being dead with summoning. seems like a very swining mechanics, good when your lucky and your army is good, but not so fun when it is not the case.

Are there many armies in AoS that can't counter double turns, Like ones that are slow or who don't have chaff to screen the whole army?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/29 21:51:20


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It is also affected by the relative strength of battalions. Some armies have army encompassing battalions made up of their best units with excellent benefits across them while some armies have few/none worth including.

This hurts even more when it also gives the advantaged race the choice of initial turn order.

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Karol wrote:



So if the double turn mechanic exists there as a gatcha thing, so that even someone with a bad army or bad skill has a chance to win. doesn't it require a real lot of games to be played to feel that way? the chance of getting double turn, and not getting one is the same for all players right? this means someone with a weak army or who is a noob, get the chance to win half the time, but half the time he gets steam rolled even harder. And as others said there are probably difference between armies too. An army that uses its double turn to shuffle some units around or fight an extra melee or two, won't benefit from it as much as one that rises itself up from being dead with summoning. seems like a very swining mechanics, good when your lucky and your army is good, but not so fun when it is not the case.

Are there many armies in AoS that can't counter double turns, Like ones that are slow or who don't have chaff to screen the whole army?


I feel the double turn is most useful at the time between Round 1 and Round 2 which is something a player does have some control of. In Age of Sigmar who ever finishes deploying first get to chose who goes first. That why when people are talking about optimization they talk about drops. Also in Age of Sigmar Battalions (kinda like Detachments you spend extra points to receive bonuses) also count as a single drop. They, apparently, are so important some players want to be able to spend 160 points or so just to have a generic Battalion to reduce drops and get an extra Command Point. Mind you, CP aren't nearly as plentiful or easy to get in AOS as they are in 40k. Even I like spending the extra 50 points for the one CP you can straight up buy so I can both summon a Warcry Cult and make use of my Chaos Warrior on foot Command Ability to allow a unit to attack twice in a single round.

There really isn't anyway to counter a double turn in my opinion. Hence the distaste of them in addition to how much they can swing a game. There are just factions/armies can that can survive them better than others. My army can, my most common opponent's armies (Kharadron Overlords and Tzeentch) can't really. So if I go second Round 1, get a double turn and pull off some good charges I can cripple his army while setting mine to secure the win conditions (usually some sort of objective) that he'll probably never talk away from or it will be far too late to catch back up. We had one game he conceded at the mid-point of Round 2 as he made a few mistakes pushing too far forward and with the double turn I basically broke his army and had nearly secured all objectives that he was probably never going to get me away from other than maybe one.

As for chaff, yeah my opponent probably should have something to screen me better. At the same time, my army can generate a lot of reliable (re-rolls is my faction's thing) if weak (No Rend) attacks that can usually punch through chaff. Conversely, I can teleport/ summon Warcry Cults to basically deep strike to tie him up too. I also have access to flying units to get around them if they don't screen well.

None of that is special to my army either. In fact, competitively speaking, my army is rather weak. I think I mostly win because I know how to execute the best plan for it win when my opponent doesn't. I think most players after regular play of Age of Sigmar will be able to beat consistently as I already feel like I am at the ceiling of my army can do. That ceiling is a long ways from what even a strong army can do even by a player that makes mistakes. I am genuinely surprised every win I get.

Again, I really don't have any issue with the Double Turn. I don't like it but don't care that it exists in the game either. It is just a thing that is. If I had to side, I would probably say get rid of it as I can definitely see how dismantles some factions with really no way to prepare for it.

   
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I was more thinking about something like summoning. Powerful demons running amok for two turns, and summoning what is best suited for two turns, would be like playing against an army and a half,


In some cases double your army. Which is why I have been 100% anti-summoning how GW lets you summon since they let it be free summoning, and why its one of my barriers of wanting to play.

I've watched that scenario you've described many times. It feels dirty and it doesn't feel like much of a fun game unless you can summon equal amounts.

Otherwise it turns the game from a 2000 point affair to upwards of 3000 - 4000 pts vs 2000 points (depending on the army that is spam summoning and especially given a double turn to double the pleasure double the fun)

The thought of having to play 3000 or 4000 pts vs 2000 pts as an actual "balanced matched play" game baffles me. For special scenarios - absolutely. Siege games were often this, the attacker got double the defender because of the walls. But for normal games? Absolutely no.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/30 01:44:30


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Please don't talk about summoning here, if you want to talk about that go to another thread, or make 1 just for it. B.c i fully feel summoning is that bad and only new players or non-experience ones has problems with it.
For example Enlighten on Disks are more costly than Morrsarr Guard, but Morrsarr guard are better in every way, they even get better supporting rules, then why are TEoD more costly? B.c they can be summoned. Its the values of Rules plus points, not just straight points. IDK are still a top tier army and they don't summon for that reason)

This is suppose to be about double turns, if you rant about 1 aspect that effects doubles turns, then talk about them all like "fight first" or "fight twice" or "healing" i know some people take 2-3 healing spells with Life swarm just to heal 3++/5+++ units. Sure its not competitive, but against an inexperience player its deadly to have a tank unit hold the line, or Horrors for example, phoenix guard works too, etc..

So if you don't want to have a back and forth rant, lets top now.

Edit: englsh bad sorry.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/30 13:13:27


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That would indeed be a great thread. How someone could explain how 4000 pts vs 2000 pts is a good thing for a balanced matched play system.

If someone wants to create that thread, that'd be awesome to read.

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Wayniac wrote:
Funnily enough everyone I've spoken to don't use the Apocalypse rules at all. They haven't said they hate them but just use normal 40k rules with huge points which I find stupid since the whole point of the Apoc rules is to streamline and speed up big games so they don't take an entire day or more.

I doubt GW will ever get rid of IGOUGO, it's too ingrained in their design philosophy for the main Warhammer games. What I would like the most is for the double turn to become an optional rule so you have the choice to use it.

Very few people use the Apocalypse rules because they have to invest in what amounts to a new game boxset, as opposed to just a rulebook, then learn what is 'technically' sold as a game unto itself (like Kill Team).

The fandom in general is just really uncomfortable about using any kind of additional rulesets, which is why things like Cityfight never appear outside of one guy convincing his mates to test the rules as a one-off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/30 13:16:07


 
   
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 Arbitrator wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
Funnily enough everyone I've spoken to don't use the Apocalypse rules at all. They haven't said they hate them but just use normal 40k rules with huge points which I find stupid since the whole point of the Apoc rules is to streamline and speed up big games so they don't take an entire day or more.

I doubt GW will ever get rid of IGOUGO, it's too ingrained in their design philosophy for the main Warhammer games. What I would like the most is for the double turn to become an optional rule so you have the choice to use it.

Very few people use the Apocalypse rules because they have to invest in what amounts to a new game boxset, as opposed to just a rulebook, then learn what is 'technically' sold as a game unto itself (like Kill Team).

The fandom in general is just really uncomfortable about using any kind of additional rulesets, which is why things like Cityfight never appear outside of one guy convincing his mates to test the rules as a one-off.


Which in a rather funny twist, Cityfight provides additional rules that resolve a lot of common complaints about the game. By no means perfect, it is a step in the right direction for helping balance, and deepen 40k's gameplay with improved and meaningful terrain rules and makes melee units stronger. However, getting back to AoS.

Personally, I'm all for trying out whatever weird additional rules I find or are put out in some official manner, like the Siege rules in Wrath of the Everchosen. Had a great game with them where there were three people who wanted to game at my group's last meet up, so we did a big 2v1 of Khorne Mortals and Nurgle Daemons vs Ossiarchs in a siege. I abnormal games every now and again to try out different things, because the mission objectives don't vary the actual gameplay up enough. My test match of having no Double turn/Initiative roll off also included rolling for first turn (+1 to roll for finishing alternate deployment first) and rolling for first control of Endless spells at the start of battle rounds. Next time I try without Double Turns, I think I'd rather play around with sole control of Endless Spells for the player that bought them.

The issue comes in convincing others to try it, as others said earlier.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/30 16:13:47


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Those rules do look cool, but discussing them is for another thread I'm afraid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 auticus wrote:
That would indeed be a great thread. How someone could explain how 4000 pts vs 2000 pts is a good thing for a balanced matched play system.

If someone wants to create that thread, that'd be awesome to read.
Since APPARENTLY no one else wants to start threads...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/30 17:23:47


Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
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Since APPARENTLY no one else wants to start threads...


When it comes to the AOS section, no I don't start threads

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