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 vipoid wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Is there any way where I can se the points before and after 9th edition?

I have the codex, I have ordered the new rules and new points but they have not arived yet. But that stil means I am sitting comparing points manualy. Somebody on the internett must have done so already.

Try this:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1imDg-fwz0NUE46QwjIRcGgDUV7bXRY8J_PCbbTw90lU/edit#gid=1963133187

Thank you. And to who ever put it together.

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
What is the general feeling about Venoms vs Raiders with the current rules/points?

It's difficult.

On the one hand, 25pt Disintegrators is painful and paying just shy of 100pts for a single Raider really doesn't seem worth it. But at the same time, Venoms have gone up 10pts and still have garbage firepower. They're also liable to be less effective against a meta that seems increasingly Primaris-driven.

However, my biggest problem is that the ludicrous increase in the cost of our troops means there's no longer anything I'd want to put inside them.

I've only played one 500 point game so far so my experience is probably pretty skewed, but my immediate take on my DE was that splinter weapons are nigh-on worthless. My opponent had Iron Hands primaris castled up in cover (we were playing the assassination mission) and I might as well have just been flicking bogies at them. I think I maybe did two wounds with splinter weapons all game. Virtually all my damage was done by the 2 blasters in the Kabalite squad and the DL on the Raider, which I should probably swap to a Disintegrator.

With that in mind I'm thinking it's probably best to max out the special weapons, which means a 10 man squad in a raider. A 5 man squad in a venom is cheaper, sure - but it's very expensive if the only thing that will actually be doing anything is one blaster.

Crispy78 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
What is the general feeling about Venoms vs Raiders with the current rules/points?

It's difficult.

On the one hand, 25pt Disintegrators is painful and paying just shy of 100pts for a single Raider really doesn't seem worth it. But at the same time, Venoms have gone up 10pts and still have garbage firepower. They're also liable to be less effective against a meta that seems increasingly Primaris-driven.

However, my biggest problem is that the ludicrous increase in the cost of our troops means there's no longer anything I'd want to put inside them.

I've only played one 500 point game so far so my experience is probably pretty skewed, but my immediate take on my DE was that splinter weapons are nigh-on worthless. My opponent had Iron Hands primaris castled up in cover (we were playing the assassination mission) and I might as well have just been flicking bogies at them. I think I maybe did two wounds with splinter weapons all game. Virtually all my damage was done by the 2 blasters in the Kabalite squad and the DL on the Raider, which I should probably swap to a Disintegrator.

With that in mind I'm thinking it's probably best to max out the special weapons, which means a 10 man squad in a raider. A 5 man squad in a venom is cheaper, sure - but it's very expensive if the only thing that will actually be doing anything is one blaster.

Back in the old days if they castle up it usualy meant you could grab objectives. Superior speed, range and monilaty. Not durbailaty.

Wow so our infantry is now over costed (not that I took em anyway). What was good is now priced significantly more in points. Did everybody get points increases? I feel like we got hit esp. Hard.

Ok so I just looked again and it seems like the worst price changes were our infantry. Our transports don't seem too bad but the infantry themselves are. I dunno who priced our basic infantry. Warriors were pretty much guardsmen stats except 3+ to hit and better movement. Dunno how that's worth 9 pts per model.

Crispy78 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
What is the general feeling about Venoms vs Raiders with the current rules/points?

It's difficult.

On the one hand, 25pt Disintegrators is painful and paying just shy of 100pts for a single Raider really doesn't seem worth it. But at the same time, Venoms have gone up 10pts and still have garbage firepower. They're also liable to be less effective against a meta that seems increasingly Primaris-driven.

However, my biggest problem is that the ludicrous increase in the cost of our troops means there's no longer anything I'd want to put inside them.

I've only played one 500 point game so far so my experience is probably pretty skewed, but my immediate take on my DE was that splinter weapons are nigh-on worthless. My opponent had Iron Hands primaris castled up in cover (we were playing the assassination mission) and I might as well have just been flicking bogies at them. I think I maybe did two wounds with splinter weapons all game. Virtually all my damage was done by the 2 blasters in the Kabalite squad and the DL on the Raider, which I should probably swap to a Disintegrator.

With that in mind I'm thinking it's probably best to max out the special weapons, which means a 10 man squad in a raider. A 5 man squad in a venom is cheaper, sure - but it's very expensive if the only thing that will actually be doing anything is one blaster.

Oh, splinter weapons are absolutely awful.

Back in 5th, they were okay (not amazing or anything, just okay). It made us poor against infantry but good against bikers, monsters etc.

However, from 6th-7th onwards, monsters and such got progressively stronger and more resistant to poison. We started to see more monsters with 2+ armour saves and 6+ wounds, as well as monsters like Wraithknights which were just outright immune to poisoned weapons.

Roll on 8th edition and almost everything with T5+ (the stuff poison was supposed to be effective against) saw their wounds doubled or even tripled.

Previously, you only needed to get 4 wounds on a Carnifex to kill it. Now you need to inflict 8. It similarly used to take just 4 wounds to kill a Dreadknight or Hive Tyrant. Now it needs 12.

Splinter weapons could have been given D2 and they'd still be less effective against most monsters than they had been previously. However, they weren't given D2, nor a single pip of AP, nor any bonus to wound. They remained exactly the same, with no regard to the improvements to monsters and such. Plus the fact that it became much easier to wound monsters with low-toughness weapons (previously, a bolter would have been wounding a Carnifex, Dreadknight or Hive Tyrant on 6s, now it's wounding on 5s).

About the only thing splinter weapons had going for them was that Kabalites and Venoms were fairly cheap, so you could at least use the IG approach of quantity over quality.

And then 9th came along and decided that Kabalites needed to be almost twice as expensive as guardsmen.

As for the Venom, I think an appropriate comparison is a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons vs. a Starweaver with 2 Shuriken Cannons. The starweaver has better guns, a much better invulnerable (4++ that works all the time compared with a 5++ that only works against shooting), automatically Advances 6", and can carry 6 passengers to the Venom's 5. So the Starweaver must be more expensive, right? Nope. Actually the twin splinter cannon Venom is 10pts more expensive.

/rant


Anyway, the best advice I can offer regarding splinter weapons is to go Flayed Skull. At least then Marines and other 3+ save units won't be able to get to a 2+ save by being in cover.

 Niiai wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
What is the general feeling about Venoms vs Raiders with the current rules/points?

It's difficult.

On the one hand, 25pt Disintegrators is painful and paying just shy of 100pts for a single Raider really doesn't seem worth it. But at the same time, Venoms have gone up 10pts and still have garbage firepower. They're also liable to be less effective against a meta that seems increasingly Primaris-driven.

However, my biggest problem is that the ludicrous increase in the cost of our troops means there's no longer anything I'd want to put inside them.

I've only played one 500 point game so far so my experience is probably pretty skewed, but my immediate take on my DE was that splinter weapons are nigh-on worthless. My opponent had Iron Hands primaris castled up in cover (we were playing the assassination mission) and I might as well have just been flicking bogies at them. I think I maybe did two wounds with splinter weapons all game. Virtually all my damage was done by the 2 blasters in the Kabalite squad and the DL on the Raider, which I should probably swap to a Disintegrator.

With that in mind I'm thinking it's probably best to max out the special weapons, which means a 10 man squad in a raider. A 5 man squad in a venom is cheaper, sure - but it's very expensive if the only thing that will actually be doing anything is one blaster.

Back in the old days if they castle up it usualy meant you could grab objectives. Superior speed, range and monilaty. Not durbailaty.

Yeah, it was a bad match of both opponent faction and mission. The assassination mission type has no other objectives (we didn't take secondary objectives, first game of new edition and neither of us had read the rules properly!), only score VPs by wounding / killing his warlord - who was obviously sat in cover surrounded by the rest of his army...

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Wow so our infantry is now over costed (not that I took em anyway). What was good is now priced significantly more in points. Did everybody get points increases? I feel like we got hit esp. Hard.

We were one of the worst hit by the point increases, unfortunately. Talos seem to be about the only units of ours that made it through relatively unscathed.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Ok so I just looked again and it seems like the worst price changes were our infantry. Our transports don't seem too bad but the infantry themselves are. I dunno who priced our basic infantry. Warriors were pretty much guardsmen stats except 3+ to hit and better movement. Dunno how that's worth 9 pts per model.

Yeah, Kabalites are just insanely costed now. And given the cost of our other troops, I have no clue what GW even expects us to take at this point.

Splinter weapons should all move to being poison 2+

If an entire space marine faction can have 1 of 4 types of ammo used on all their bolt weapons be poison 2+ then I see no reason why it would make DE broken. Right now shooting at infantry in cover is largely a waste of time with poison weapons. Or it seems that way at least. It really doesn't help now that venoms can be shoot through dense cover, by infantry running and firing heavy weapons at us with only a -1 penalty. They really should not have increased the venom, and frankly it should have become cheaper by making splinter canons 5 points.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Splinter weapons should all move to being poison 2+

If an entire space marine faction can have 1 of 4 types of ammo used on all their bolt weapons be poison 2+ then I see no reason why it would make DE broken. Right now shooting at infantry in cover is largely a waste of time with poison weapons. Or it seems that way at least. It really doesn't help now that venoms can be shoot through dense cover, by infantry running and firing heavy weapons at us with only a -1 penalty. They really should not have increased the venom, and frankly it should have become cheaper by making splinter canons 5 points.

I'm inclined to agree.

There's a sad irony in the fact that DE specialise in poison weapons... yet have the worst poison weapons of any race.

Compare the poison weapons available to GSCs to the garbage we're stuck with.

e.g. our basic pistol is AP- D1 Poison 4+
Our upgraded pistol is AP- D1 Poison 2+
Meanwhile, a basic poisoned pistol for GSCs is AP- Dd3 Poison 2+

Then we have the Toxin Injector Claw, which is a Venom Blade but with AP-1 and Rending, outclassing both the Venom Blade and the Agoniser (to say nothing of Haemonculus Tools).

Then there's the Sanctus Bio-Dagger. S1 AP-2 D2 Poison 2+, user can make an additional attack. We have literal artefacts that are worse than this piece of standard GSC wargear. And I'm not even being facetious here. The Triptych Whip grants +3 attacks instead of +1, but it's only Poison 4+ and only D1. The Flensing Blade has better damage against characters (3 instead of 2), but it doesn't grant an extra attack and also only wounds on 3s compared to the Bio-Dagger's 2s.

At the very least, could our HQs steal some GSC weapons and use them instead of their own?

I'd be down with at least an increase to 3+ to wound on all poisoned weaponry.

Or make them rapid fire 2.

The fact that Warriors went up 50% in points cost is mind-boggling.

Someone at GW super hates Dark Eldar. I could write better rules in an afternoon.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I'd be down with at least an increase to 3+ to wound on all poisoned weaponry.

Someone at GW super hates Dark Eldar. I could write better rules in an afternoon.

That they do, i started in third edition and i remember people begging gw to update DE for years. they had a 2.5 edition codex all the way till 5th edition when they got their revamp... and then kinda faded away again. you could not even find a box of DE at a gw, they were pretty much direct order only for a long time.

i feel like my DE is going to sit on the shelf so to say this edition until GW gets their gak together and fixes DE 4 editions from now per the norm.

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Splinter weapons should all move to being poison 2+

If an entire space marine faction can have 1 of 4 types of ammo used on all their bolt weapons be poison 2+ then I see no reason why it would make DE broken. Right now shooting at infantry in cover is largely a waste of time with poison weapons. Or it seems that way at least. It really doesn't help now that venoms can be shoot through dense cover, by infantry running and firing heavy weapons at us with only a -1 penalty. They really should not have increased the venom, and frankly it should have become cheaper by making splinter canons 5 points.

I'm inclined to agree.

There's a sad irony in the fact that DE specialise in poison weapons... yet have the worst poison weapons of any race.

Compare the poison weapons available to GSCs to the garbage we're stuck with.

e.g. our basic pistol is AP- D1 Poison 4+
Our upgraded pistol is AP- D1 Poison 2+
Meanwhile, a basic poisoned pistol for GSCs is AP- Dd3 Poison 2+

Then we have the Toxin Injector Claw, which is a Venom Blade but with AP-1 and Rending, outclassing both the Venom Blade and the Agoniser (to say nothing of Haemonculus Tools).

Then there's the Sanctus Bio-Dagger. S1 AP-2 D2 Poison 2+, user can make an additional attack. We have literal artefacts that are worse than this piece of standard GSC wargear. And I'm not even being facetious here. The Triptych Whip grants +3 attacks instead of +1, but it's only Poison 4+ and only D1. The Flensing Blade has better damage against characters (3 instead of 2), but it doesn't grant an extra attack and also only wounds on 3s compared to the Bio-Dagger's 2s.

At the very least, could our HQs steal some GSC weapons and use them instead of their own?

...Those aren't pieces of standard wargear. They're weapons equipped by Unique HQ models. GSC have no poisoned weapons on their regular units.

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Splinter weapons should all move to being poison 2+

If an entire space marine faction can have 1 of 4 types of ammo used on all their bolt weapons be poison 2+ then I see no reason why it would make DE broken. Right now shooting at infantry in cover is largely a waste of time with poison weapons. Or it seems that way at least. It really doesn't help now that venoms can be shoot through dense cover, by infantry running and firing heavy weapons at us with only a -1 penalty. They really should not have increased the venom, and frankly it should have become cheaper by making splinter canons 5 points.

I'm inclined to agree.

There's a sad irony in the fact that DE specialise in poison weapons... yet have the worst poison weapons of any race.

Compare the poison weapons available to GSCs to the garbage we're stuck with.

e.g. our basic pistol is AP- D1 Poison 4+
Our upgraded pistol is AP- D1 Poison 2+
Meanwhile, a basic poisoned pistol for GSCs is AP- Dd3 Poison 2+

Then we have the Toxin Injector Claw, which is a Venom Blade but with AP-1 and Rending, outclassing both the Venom Blade and the Agoniser (to say nothing of Haemonculus Tools).

Then there's the Sanctus Bio-Dagger. S1 AP-2 D2 Poison 2+, user can make an additional attack. We have literal artefacts that are worse than this piece of standard GSC wargear. And I'm not even being facetious here. The Triptych Whip grants +3 attacks instead of +1, but it's only Poison 4+ and only D1. The Flensing Blade has better damage against characters (3 instead of 2), but it doesn't grant an extra attack and also only wounds on 3s compared to the Bio-Dagger's 2s.

At the very least, could our HQs steal some GSC weapons and use them instead of their own?

...Those aren't pieces of standard wargear. They're weapons equipped by Unique HQ models. GSC have no poisoned weapons on their regular units.

When I said 'standard wargear', I didn't mean that it was available to every GSC model. I meant that it came standard on one or more models. As in, this isn't artefacts or some super-expensive Thunderhammer Equivalent.

Further, even if you want to judge by HQ-only gear, the GSC stuff is still miles better than the unique weapons available to our HQs.

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Splinter weapons should all move to being poison 2+

If an entire space marine faction can have 1 of 4 types of ammo used on all their bolt weapons be poison 2+ then I see no reason why it would make DE broken. Right now shooting at infantry in cover is largely a waste of time with poison weapons. Or it seems that way at least. It really doesn't help now that venoms can be shoot through dense cover, by infantry running and firing heavy weapons at us with only a -1 penalty. They really should not have increased the venom, and frankly it should have become cheaper by making splinter canons 5 points.

I'm inclined to agree.

There's a sad irony in the fact that DE specialise in poison weapons... yet have the worst poison weapons of any race.

Compare the poison weapons available to GSCs to the garbage we're stuck with.

e.g. our basic pistol is AP- D1 Poison 4+
Our upgraded pistol is AP- D1 Poison 2+
Meanwhile, a basic poisoned pistol for GSCs is AP- Dd3 Poison 2+

Then we have the Toxin Injector Claw, which is a Venom Blade but with AP-1 and Rending, outclassing both the Venom Blade and the Agoniser (to say nothing of Haemonculus Tools).

Then there's the Sanctus Bio-Dagger. S1 AP-2 D2 Poison 2+, user can make an additional attack. We have literal artefacts that are worse than this piece of standard GSC wargear. And I'm not even being facetious here. The Triptych Whip grants +3 attacks instead of +1, but it's only Poison 4+ and only D1. The Flensing Blade has better damage against characters (3 instead of 2), but it doesn't grant an extra attack and also only wounds on 3s compared to the Bio-Dagger's 2s.

At the very least, could our HQs steal some GSC weapons and use them instead of their own?

...Those aren't pieces of standard wargear. They're weapons equipped by Unique HQ models. GSC have no poisoned weapons on their regular units.

When I said 'standard wargear', I didn't mean that it was available to every GSC model. I meant that it came standard on one or more models. As in, this isn't artefacts or some super-expensive Thunderhammer Equivalent.

Further, even if you want to judge by HQ-only gear, the GSC stuff is still miles better than the unique weapons available to our HQs.

Yeah, signature drukari HQ wargear sucks ass for sure. The Huskblade is really the only thing that approaches "OK" and that's still really weak. Archite Glaives are a bad joke, as are Haemonculus Tools - the only recourse there is to use the absolute Legends-bait that is the expanded weapons of torture list that doesn't have an official model.

That's not a problem with Genestealer Cults, though, that's a problem with Drukhari melee weaponry being trash compared to...everyone. An imperial guard power fist is a stronger melee weapon than everything our HQs have access to as standard.

You're also complaining about the worst faction in the game, whose HQs are super not overpowered. The primus with that poison pistol and toxin claw is an IG company commander who just costs 2x as much for no reason. They also have the enticing option of a magus, who is statistically identical to a primaris psyker from the iG, but again, twice as many points for absolutely no reason at all. Don't lash out at factions also in the dumpster, there's no point.

the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah, signature drukari HQ wargear sucks ass for sure. The Huskblade is really the only thing that approaches "OK" and that's still really weak. Archite Glaives are a bad joke, as are Haemonculus Tools - the only recourse there is to use the absolute Legends-bait that is the expanded weapons of torture list that doesn't have an official model.

You know, until you mentioned it, it hadn't actually occurred to me that there isn't an official model for Haemonculus Tools.

the_scotsman wrote:

That's not a problem with Genestealer Cults, though, that's a problem with Drukhari melee weaponry being trash compared to...everyone. An imperial guard power fist is a stronger melee weapon than everything our HQs have access to as standard.

You're also complaining about the worst faction in the game, whose HQs are super not overpowered. The primus with that poison pistol and toxin claw is an IG company commander who just costs 2x as much for no reason. They also have the enticing option of a magus, who is statistically identical to a primaris psyker from the iG, but again, twice as many points for absolutely no reason at all. Don't lash out at factions also in the dumpster, there's no point.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying, since it seems we basically agree.

I wasn't trying to say that GSC weapons are too strong. My issue is that Dark Eldar are supposedly the masters of poison (to the extent that they use it on almost every model), yet for all that they seem to have the worst poison weapons in the entire game. Even poison melee weapon artefacts on purportedly glass-cannon HQs are still completely toothless.

Hence, I don't mind that GSCs have some nice poison weapons. I do mind that Dark Eldar don't.

I apologise if that wasn't clear in my original post.


Incidentally, what is it with GW and drastically overcosting any and all IG analogues?

yeah I really honestly do not know. At this point, I ally in brood brothers to get Primaris and Astropath psykers so I can perform the psychic secondary objectives with my GSC. It's so weird.

To me, the archon with the huskblade most approaches OK - he tends to win HQ duels with similarly costed analogues just owing to his 2++ save and his d6 damage pistol.

isn't the official rule for the haemonculus tools just..the thing the default haemonculus is holding? The little knife and the claw on his left side? I thought the default loadout for the plastic haemonculus was Injector+Tools+Stinger Pistol.

the succubus is the real embarrassment. why the glaive doesn't have d3 damage by default is absoluely beyond me, as is why she has 4A to the freaking haemonculus' 5A. so laughable.

I agree, The Blood Glaive is what the Archite should be by default. I think it's the same problem across our codex, our Artefacts are basically patches which make our HQs bearable, rather than the fun bonus that they should be.

Maybe I have low standards, but I think Haemonculi with Electrocorrosive Whips are pretty decent.

 harlokin wrote:
I agree, The Blood Glaive is what the Archite should be by default.

Maybe I have low standards, but I think Haemonculi with Electrocorrosive Whips are pretty decent.

Yeah SoB has basically the blood glaive for 10pts (+2str, -3ap, D3) making her a 60pts Model. DE heroes needs some serious help IMO. When i was playing SoB it felt like i was playing a better DE army, just a little slower and with no Coven. With BA it was like playing a mix of Kabal and Wyches together.


I'm trying to not be to negative with 9th towards DE, at least coven is still strong, and wyches are now playable. But i do feel the sting still.

 harlokin wrote:
I agree, The Blood Glaive is what the Archite should be by default. I think it's the same problem across our codex, our Artefacts are basically patches which make our HQs bearable, rather than the fun bonus that they should be.

Maybe I have low standards, but I think Haemonculi with Electrocorrosive Whips are pretty decent.

yeah, and giving the succubus a shardnet+impaler makes her feel less utterly worthless.

Because on the bright side, AP-1 is the only amount of ap that matters anyway vs most characters! eyyyyyyy!

Most DE characters just look awful in comparison. Character duels are still just..kinda laughable in 8th, because 99% of the time whoever goes first just wipes their opponent completely with massive overkill. Heck, a lot of the time if I try to go for a "character duel" in 8th/9th the blast pistol shot just Indiana Jones's the opposing character while they're doing their preparatory pre-duel flourishes.

the_scotsman wrote:
yeah I really honestly do not know. At this point, I ally in brood brothers to get Primaris and Astropath psykers so I can perform the psychic secondary objectives with my GSC. It's so weird.

To me, the archon with the huskblade most approaches OK - he tends to win HQ duels with similarly costed analogues just owing to his 2++ save and his d6 damage pistol.

isn't the official rule for the haemonculus tools just..the thing the default haemonculus is holding? The little knife and the claw on his left side? I thought the default loadout for the plastic haemonculus was Injector+Tools+Stinger Pistol.

the succubus is the real embarrassment. why the glaive doesn't have d3 damage by default is absoluely beyond me, as is why she has 4A to the freaking haemonculus' 5A. so laughable.

That 4 attacks has really annoyed me this entire edition. The drug fueled murder bitch gladiator that has less attacks then a politician/mobster class and the scientist/lab geek

I actually like the impaler on the succubus though. Most characters have invulns or 2+ saves anyway and the damage 2 can really catch folks. That said, the succubus is half as good as it should be.

I really think they need to make poison 2+ the more I think about it. It already exists in the game, and it's clearly not broken and it fits the background very well. DE use poisons specifically so they don't need to worry about strength. Strange that their poison is such garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I agree, The Blood Glaive is what the Archite should be by default. I think it's the same problem across our codex, our Artefacts are basically patches which make our HQs bearable, rather than the fun bonus that they should be.

Maybe I have low standards, but I think Haemonculi with Electrocorrosive Whips are pretty decent.

yeah, and giving the succubus a shardnet+impaler makes her feel less utterly worthless.

Because on the bright side, AP-1 is the only amount of ap that matters anyway vs most characters! eyyyyyyy!

Most DE characters just look awful in comparison. Character duels are still just..kinda laughable in 8th, because 99% of the time whoever goes first just wipes their opponent completely with massive overkill. Heck, a lot of the time if I try to go for a "character duel" in 8th/9th the blast pistol shot just Indiana Jones's the opposing character while they're doing their preparatory pre-duel flourishes.

The funny thing is, in the index character duels were much closer matched and it was actually when they tried to solo entire squads that they got pig piled and taught a lesson. But classic GW decided single infantry model characters should still solo entire squads in one round of melee which also resulted in the side effect of obliterating other characters.

But hey, now the marines get some A hole with an hour glass to ensure they swat every other armies characters first, sort of like our best relic only they can have up to 3 and at no cost to CP or their relics and without needing a specific chapter tactic! Yay!

Also, why don't we have access to Incubus Lords? How awesome would they be.

Our character gear has been an embarrassment for years now. Dark Eldar should have some of the deadliest weapons available, countered only by our inherent lack of armour and survivability. We basically have neither.

The Archite Glaive is the perfect example of GW not caring or a deliberate attempt to make DE bad.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Also, why don't we have access to Incubus Lords? How awesome would they be.

That would indeed be nice. Hell, at the very least, you'd think they could let an Archon take an Incubi suit and weapons.

Also, probably no secret at this point, but I'd also love a Mandrake Lord. IMO they have some fantastically creepy fluff, so it's kinda sad that they are stuck as a single squad of 1-wound mooks with 0 options and 0 characters.

That said, I'd settle for Archons being able to swap out their Shadowfields for a 5++ with a -1 to hit. Then at least I can take a Poison Tongue Archon with the Soul Seeker and pretend he's a Mandrake Lord.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Our character gear has been an embarrassment for years now. Dark Eldar should have some of the deadliest weapons available, countered only by our inherent lack of armour and survivability. We basically have neither.

Agreed.

However, what bugs me about DE gear isn't just that it's severely underpowered - it's that it's so bland. Like no thought whatsoever went into it.

I think the_scotsman made a similar point not long ago with regard to Harlequin weapons. You've got a weapon that covers the victim in monofilament wire, you've got a weapon that lets the Harlequin reach into the victim's chest and pull out their heart, and you've got a weapon that injects monofilament right into their body. So how are these weapons represented?
S+2 AP-2 D1
S+1 AP-3 D1
S+1 AP-1 Dd3

Thrilling.

Could we not get some weapons (or other non-artefact wargear) with more creative effects?

We had cool gear, it just all got taken away. Clone Fields, Drugs or Archons, WWPs, PGL, our melee weapons has always been straight to the point but had a special rule on them and those are gone other than venom blade. Ele-whip used to 1/2 the opponent strength, Huskblade had Instant death, Djin blade actually almost stayed the same, but was not a relic.

Yeah, I really feel like the rules for all drukhari and harlequin weapons could use a major overhaul just to be more interesting. So much at this point is so samey and boring, I want to go back to playing these armies to have "weird tricks"

Just off the top of my head:

-Stunclaw. Ditch the mortal wound thing. if a model equipped with this weapon starts its turn within Engagement Range of an enemy CHARACTER model, it can attempt to kidnap that model while it makes its Fall Back move. The players roll off and add the Str of the models. If the opposing player wins the roll off, the unit must Fall Back as normal. If the controlling player wins the roll off, after the fall back move is made set up the enemy CHARACTER model within Engagement Range of the model equipped with the Stunclaw.

-Add Impaler Lances as a purchaseable melee weapon on Scourge Solarites and Raider transports. Remove Power Lance. 10pts, +1S -1AP 1 Damage, same special rule as the Stunclaw above.

-Clone Field. Replaces the Shadow Field. provides a 4++ invulnerable save. If a model equipped with a Clone Field has not yet had to make any save rolls this turn, it makes D3 additional attacks in the Fight phase with one of its equipped melee weapons.

-Electrocorrosive Whip. Make 1 damage. If an enemy model that does not have the VEHICLE keyword loses any wounds to this weapon, halve that models strength rounding down until the end of its players next turn.

-Beastmaster's Scourge. Enemy BEASTS and SWARMS models that lose any wounds to a model equipped with this weapon may not declare any attacks targeting that model for the remainder of the FIGHT phase. If there are no other enemy models within Engagement Range, those models may not make any attacks this turn.

-Bladevanes. When a model equipped with this weapon declares a Fall Back move, it may make 1 attack as if it were the Fight phase against one enemy unit within Engagement Range.

-Mindphase Gauntlet. Strength X2, attacks with this weapon roll to wound against the target's Leadership stat rather than Toughness.

-Razorflails. A model equipped with this weapon may make 1 bonus attack with it for each enemy model within Engagement Range.

-Scissorhand. Remove bonus attack. Add rule Bleed Out. If an enemy model without the VEHICLE keyword lost any wounds to it, at the end of the fight phase roll a d6. if the result is higher than the number of wounds the model has remaining, remove the model from play as a casualty.

-Flesh Gauntlet. Sx2 Ap-2 Dd3. More precise but less piercing power fist weapon - plug a hole in our codex that's been there basically for ages.

-Agonizer. Any wounds lost to an Agonizer count as models from that unit being destroyed for the purposes of Morale tests.

-Talos Gauntlet. Just make it the high cost, higher damage anti-vehicle weapon. Currently it never outperforms the scalpels due to the bonus attack and the hit mod. Simple.

-Archite glaive. Just make it a dang power fist equivalent. Damage d3 and the additional rule added to the agonizer would make agonizer/archite an interesting dual choice.

Well, GW's treatment of Drukhari is really blunt.
Primaris gets all the love - certainly due to the sales figures.
All other factions have to stay back. Here the release of SoB is a bit surprising.

OK, so I have had a bunch of wyches in my possession for far too long, maybe it's time to do something with them. I do have a few other Drukhari units (5 scourges, a razorwing , 2 sqds kabalites and an archon) but the majority is wych cult (which I prefer aesthetically).

2x Succubus
18 wyches (should be 20, think I lost 2 but can easily use spare legs from elsewhere)
9 Reavers
5 Hellions
1 Raider
2 Venoms

For obsessions, was thinking either custom (slashing impact, +?) or Cult of Poisoned Blade. I like the +1 S armywide plus fun artefact.

Is it worth adding minimum units of hellions/reavers just to use up the less popular combat drug options so that you get the better ones on other units?
What about the hekatrix..blast pistol on each, agonizer?

Moving forward, what else to add? Assuming a second razorwing...more scourges?

Doesn't look super strong on paper, but want to get the army at least painted up.
Cheers.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
We had cool gear, it just all got taken away. Clone Fields, Drugs or Archons, WWPs, PGL, our melee weapons has always been straight to the point but had a special rule on them and those are gone other than venom blade. Ele-whip used to 1/2 the opponent strength, Huskblade had Instant death, Djin blade actually almost stayed the same, but was not a relic.

To say archons got nerfed is like saying a nuke is subtle. Huskblades were great and even half-way decent even at ap 3 in 7th ed. Shadowfield was great in our 7th ed codex. The thing could keep tanking even after failing its first invulnerable save of the phase. Basically against a gun-line of guard or tau it could actually live. I had 4 archons in a squad tank a ton of tau firing line shots and take out a stormsurge in 7th. Instant death was great (dealt with FnP for sure). Same goes for blaster archons which we also lost. We also lost the WWP's as you said.

I don't remember PGL being good but i started in 7th so i never played with PGL, combat drugs on archons, clone fields (which sounded cool vs low attack monsters in 5th) and WWP (which i barely used in 7th with heat lance scourge until i didn't but i heard worked well with grotesques).

We also lost most of our heroes including Vect, haven't gotten anything new besides Void ravens (which we technically had in 5th) and wracks (which we technically had in 5th but got ONE new weapon YAY!), we lost trueborn and bloodbrides, got priced into the crapper, had incubi lose relevance since before the end of 7th and never get it back, scourge are mostly garbage now down from being halfway decent or ok in 7th (that's hundreds of dollars down the drain i'm never getting back), hellions always sucked as long as i played, reavers went from being great to being just ok, archons went from amazing to absolute gak, our light infantry became worthless, all the beast units and most mercenary units suck and we had our army book split in 3 parts.

Nothing we have is that good in 9th by the sounds of it. Our basic infantry are WAY too expensive for what they are. Seriously space marines are 15 pts now and warriors are 9 pts in 9th. Who made the call to fix it that way? Light infantry was garbage before 9th dropped. Nothing makes me want to get it esp. since light infantry sound even weaker now. Ravagers got a price hike AGAIN and talos didn't really AGAIN. Jesus GW what is the prescribed way you want us to play? Do you want us to always lose to Space Marines or lose due to not painting our armies for some reason. Army favoritism is so very, very real. If you don't play marines, eldar (in 8th eldar weren't so hot but usually they are), tau, knights or maybe one or 2 other armies you may as well never compete in a game.

At this point why does the shadowfield 2++ even have a 1 time lose it downside anymore? back in the day good invuln saves were pretty rare, so it made sense for the shadowfield to fail after a failed save, but now adays 3++ and rerollable invuln saves are so common place, that a 2++ on a t3 body with no re-rolls isnt that attrocious and still vulnerable to weight of fire.

 warmaster21 wrote:
At this point why does the shadowfield 2++ even have a 1 time lose it downside anymore? back in the day good invuln saves were pretty rare, so it made sense for the shadowfield to fail after a failed save, but now adays 3++ and rerollable invuln saves are so common place, that a 2++ on a t3 body with no re-rolls isnt that attrocious and still vulnerable to weight of fire.

At the very least, the downside seems wildly in excess of the Shadowfield's power (or the Archon's power, for that matter).

It seems like it could easily go down to a 4++ or even a 3++ on a failed save, and remain like that for the rest of the game. Alternatively, perhaps it should only fail for the remainder of the turn or phase, so if you survive combat/shooting then you get your 2++ back.


Regarding the current mechanic, I think one of the worst aspects is that it simply isn't fun. If I make all my saves, then it's not fun for my opponent who got to watch all his attacked bounce off. If I fail the saves, it's not fun for me because my HQ (assuming he even survived) is now a sitting duck for the remainder of the game. Hell, even before then, I generally don't want to do anything with my Warlord in case he loses his save. Not to mention the fact that it slows everything down because you have to roll saves one by one (unless you're like me and always fail your Shadowfiled save on the very first roll, which at least eliminates the time issues).

Put simply, I think the Shadowfield could really do with a complete change of mechanics. IMO it should be along the lines of a 4++ with an additional ability like '-1 to hit' or 'successful hit rolls against the Archon must be rerolled' or 'rolls of 6+ to hit are treated as misses'. Something that would allow it to retain its flavour of concealing the Archon from sight and making him harder to hit, but without either the hideous drawback or an unfun 2++.

 bullyboy wrote:
OK, so I have had a bunch of wyches in my possession for far too long, maybe it's time to do something with them. I do have a few other Drukhari units (5 scourges, a razorwing , 2 sqds kabalites and an archon) but the majority is wych cult (which I prefer aesthetically).

2x Succubus
18 wyches (should be 20, think I lost 2 but can easily use spare legs from elsewhere)
9 Reavers
5 Hellions
1 Raider
2 Venoms

For obsessions, was thinking either custom (slashing impact, +?) or Cult of Poisoned Blade. I like the +1 S armywide plus fun artefact.

Is it worth adding minimum units of hellions/reavers just to use up the less popular combat drug options so that you get the better ones on other units?
What about the hekatrix..blast pistol on each, agonizer?

Moving forward, what else to add? Assuming a second razorwing...more scourges?

Doesn't look super strong on paper, but want to get the army at least painted up.
Cheers.

I'm also having a playabout with Wyches, mainly because I like the models, and I'd like to make a proper Alliance of Agony.

I've been mainly tinkering with Cult of Strife, partly because I'm expecting a new Lelith model, but also because I can put a Reaper or two in a CoS detachment and have the cool option of the No Method of Death Beyond Our Grasp strat.

I'd go with Blast Pistols on the Hekatrixes, but wouldn't bother with Agonizers.