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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
It doesn't have ignore LOS, and as far as I'm aware, it never has - certainly not since the most recent revamp. It is not a WW equivalent at all. It could become that in the new book, but it isn't now.

Out of curiosity I went back through the old books. I can't find any edition it had ignore LOS in, though I wasn't able to find the profile for the weapon in 5th edition. It didn't ignore LOS in 6h or 7th, unless I missed it somehow. It certainly doesn't ignore LOS currently.


Wow; I just checked the Witch Hunter dex, and it didn't have it in that one either. I would have bet money on that!


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/07 20:51:28


 
   
Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Bath

me, too, i would have sworn down on the Golden Throne itself it was a guess weapon with indirect fire, but i'd have been wrong.


i think my brain was just seeing a "artillery unit" and making assumptions about it based on that premise (of it being a sisters Whirlwind).

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
500pts
1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Cynista wrote:
 Fergie0044 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Kataphrons are the most boring part of ad mech.


Heresy! But seriously, I love Kataphrons. For me they completely showcase the ethos/aesthetic of the Ad Mech in a single model. Weird cyborg thing with a massive gun....ah perfection.

Just a low tech Necron Destroyer tbh
^Yah. Except the Imperial ones wind up being better that the super-technologically advanced Xenos one, iirc.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Bath

i like the kataphrons form a lore and battlefield role angle. they are the admech soloution to the "heavy weapons problem" (ie how to get powerful weapons that can keep up with your line infantry). The marines are big enough to just lug their heavy weapons, the eldar use grav techology for floating gun platforms, the tau rely on markerlights/seeker missiles and vehicle mounted guns, etc. the Admech use the Karaphrons to fill that role, providing fire support to the skitarii (who only have "special" weapons equivalents like the plasma gun or thier sniper rifle). it's a cool and intresting way of doing it and one that fits their lore.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
500pts
1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I mean the organ looks like the ultimate "guess the range" weapon since it isn't really pointed anywhere.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's weird it ever had T8. Why they nerfed the AP on its shots I have no idea, though.
Compared to a wirlwind. It is OP.


Won't someone please think of the whirlwinds ?!?!?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's weird it ever had T8. Why they nerfed the AP on its shots I have no idea, though.
Compared to a wirlwind. It is OP.


So what?
Well its literally the sisters WW equivalent. So if its better than the space marine version. There is no issue. It should have ILOS though - pretty sure it always has.


It really isn't the sisters WW, it's been their only jack of all trades tank and sole source of long range AT for quite a long time now. It was never really a WW. I agree it should ignore line of sight but the WW was kind of bleh from way back, primarily because marines weren't known for bombardment outside line of sight. Oddly it was one of my last units I got as a marine player because it was so meh, never did I view it as an AT platform unlike the exorcist which has been " The " Heavy AT choice for the sisters for a long time, besides just retributors which aren't a vehicle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 00:26:23


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's weird it ever had T8. Why they nerfed the AP on its shots I have no idea, though.
Compared to a wirlwind. It is OP.


Won't someone please think of the whirlwinds ?!?!?!

As silly as we think of BAD Marine units, they do exist and a whole codex should be usable. Tyranids used to do good at tournaments just because Flyrants and Mawlocs, but nobody chimed in when those Tyranid players wished for usable Gaunts. It's really just hating because Marines get releases and others get less.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's weird it ever had T8. Why they nerfed the AP on its shots I have no idea, though.
Compared to a wirlwind. It is OP.


Won't someone please think of the whirlwinds ?!?!?!

As silly as we think of BAD Marine units, they do exist and a whole codex should be usable. Tyranids used to do good at tournaments just because Flyrants and Mawlocs, but nobody chimed in when those Tyranid players wished for usable Gaunts. It's really just hating because Marines get releases and others get less.


I'm not making light of units being under performing but the WW has been really meh for a long time when compared to other artillery units. It's a hold over from back when armies could have strengths and weaknesses and individual identity. Unlike now where most all factions need an answer to everything and evolve to be all the same forces with just different visuals and point costs but the same access to every type of unit.

If everyone didn't have access to outside line of sight arty weapons even a meh WW would be great to have for marines. Now though its all just every army getting similar toys and over lapping choices regardless of theme of the force on a whole. Which just highlights units like WW being meh all the more as opposed to a tool in the tool kit it ends up being seen as a bad arty choice compared to all the other arty vehicles.

As is, we still don't know if Exorcists will even get ignore line of sight so this is all just xeno worries of worrying about how an unknown change could invalidate a marine choice that hasn't been amazing for a long time, if ever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 00:37:01


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's weird it ever had T8. Why they nerfed the AP on its shots I have no idea, though.
Compared to a wirlwind. It is OP.


Won't someone please think of the whirlwinds ?!?!?!

As silly as we think of BAD Marine units, they do exist and a whole codex should be usable. Tyranids used to do good at tournaments just because Flyrants and Mawlocs, but nobody chimed in when those Tyranid players wished for usable Gaunts. It's really just hating because Marines get releases and others get less.


I'm not making light of units being under performing but the WW has been really meh for a long time when compared to other artillery units. It's a hold over from back when armies could have strengths and weaknesses and individual identity. Unlike now where most all factions need an answer to everything and evolve to be all the same forces with just different visuals and point costs but the same access to every type of unit.

If everyone didn't have access to outside line of sight arty weapons even a meh WW would be great to have for marines. Now though its all just every army getting similar toys and over lapping choices regardless of theme of the force on a whole. Which just highlights units like WW being meh all the more as opposed to a tool in the tool kit it ends up being seen as a bad arty choice compared to all the other arty vehicles.

As is, we still don't know if Exorcists will even get ignore line of sight so this is all just xeno worries of worrying about how an unknown change could invalidate a marine choice that hasn't been amazing for a long time, if ever.

Individual identity is not a thing if you're going to have a unit designed for a particular role. Just because Marines aren't KNOWN for artillery it doesn't mean Whirlwinds should be bad. Just because Tau aren't known for melee it doesn't mean Kroot should be bad at the role. Likewise, if Dark Eldar just got an artillery unit tomorrow, it should be decent and not junk just because Dark Eldar aren't known for artillery.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





We can agree to disagree about identity mattering but if all armies are the same just look different it isn't a very engaging choice on who you play then, imo.

That said, we have no real evidence that the exorcist is being made ignore line of sight outside of something saying " It could be nerfed because.."

Then Xeno goes into typical state and cites one of the worst Artillery pieces in the game, in a kit still in production. Should it be better ? Probably, but decades haven't shown they care much to make it better. It's a cheap bombardment platform for marines, that's about it.

I'm not even saying the WW is junk, it's competing for arty with one unit in a marine list in the core book, the thunderfire, which is worse than it was so in that respect the WW comes out well enough. Just because a unit doesn't beat other choices in other books doesn't mean its just junk in its own codex.

What makes it see less light is typically its cost or people wanting other choices with their limited points taken.

I can safely say few people would expect to see Dark Eldar get a new arty unit that will pale say, Guard arty units but they'd expect it to feel like a viable choice in its own book. Which is all any unit should be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 01:13:47


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Individual identity is not a thing if you're going to have a unit designed for a particular role. Just because Marines aren't KNOWN for artillery it doesn't mean Whirlwinds should be bad. Just because Tau aren't known for melee it doesn't mean Kroot should be bad at the role.

No but it does mean they should be worse at it, point for point, than armies who are thematically inclined that way

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 01:24:13


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I don't mind the WW. A lot of people bring a judiciar, but why not suppression fire that turns off OW and makes them fight last without needing to be w/i 3" while also laying out hurt on their backfield?

Might not be as point efficient, but it at least seems to have utility.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 01:27:42


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Cynista wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Individual identity is not a thing if you're going to have a unit designed for a particular role. Just because Marines aren't KNOWN for artillery it doesn't mean Whirlwinds should be bad. Just because Tau aren't known for melee it doesn't mean Kroot should be bad at the role.

No but it does mean they should be worse at it, point for point, than armies who are thematically inclined that way

So Kroot should be bad?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Cynista wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Individual identity is not a thing if you're going to have a unit designed for a particular role. Just because Marines aren't KNOWN for artillery it doesn't mean Whirlwinds should be bad. Just because Tau aren't known for melee it doesn't mean Kroot should be bad at the role.

No but it does mean they should be worse at it, point for point, than armies who are thematically inclined that way

So Kroot should be bad?


No but it does mean they should be worse at melee, point for point, than armies who are thematically inclined that way
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Cynista wrote:
No but it does mean they should be worse at melee, point for point, than armies who are thematically inclined that way


I remember this being literally an example of what not to do in my game design classes in school. The practical result of this balance approach is that players with 'shooty' armies are incentivized to eschew melee altogether, because their melee units can never go toe-to-toe with those of other armies.

The right way to do it is to make melee a limited part of the army- fewer force multipliers and options, so that the force cannot practically rely on melee. Or for units like Kroot, giving them shooting capability (which they pay for) so that they actually cannot spec into purely melee.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Since when are we saying GW is about making a good game ? They are all about sell a good model, with good enough rules then mix it up all the time to aid people in buying new stuff.

Making an army bad at somethings better at others then moving it around is exactly in their wheel house.

I do agree though that you should have some options to do all the things but for some armies its like one unit and little else.

Like Bullgryns, they aren't better than other armies CC groups but they are the only good option for Guard, as ogryns suck.

Kroot should be better at what they do but should they be able to take on incubi ? I don't think so and I'm sure few others do either. No one is saying they should suck at their job but just not be toe to toe able to match CC focused forces.

Which seems to be exactly what you both are saying in a round about way.

People will always be more incentivized to follow an armys strengths over their weaknesses or go with an army that excels in the focus of a certain editions mechanics.

GW don't really care if thats bad games design so long as they are selling models.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 catbarf wrote:
Or for units like Kroot, giving them shooting capability (which they pay for) so that they actually cannot spec into purely melee.

With the end result being that they are worse at melee, point for point.
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's weird it ever had T8. Why they nerfed the AP on its shots I have no idea, though.
Compared to a wirlwind. It is OP.


Won't someone please think of the whirlwinds ?!?!?!

As silly as we think of BAD Marine units, they do exist and a whole codex should be usable. Tyranids used to do good at tournaments just because Flyrants and Mawlocs, but nobody chimed in when those Tyranid players wished for usable Gaunts. It's really just hating because Marines get releases and others get less.


I'm just curious, having just idly glanced at thread, wouldn't it be better to buff the Whirlwind up to where Excorcists are instead of nerving the Excorcist down to the Whirlwind's level?

Cynista wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Or for units like Kroot, giving them shooting capability (which they pay for) so that they actually cannot spec into purely melee.

With the end result being that they are worse at melee, point for point.


Yes, but it means melee is an option they can use in general and they can use the shooting weapons to soften up an enemy to charge in and tie them down. Nobody is saying a standard Kroot needs to be able to take on Khorne Beserkers in melee unaided.

AngryAngel80 wrote:Since when are we saying GW is about making a good game ? They are all about sell a good model, with good enough rules then mix it up all the time to aid people in buying new stuff.

Making an army bad at somethings better at others then moving it around is exactly in their wheel house.

I do agree though that you should have some options to do all the things but for some armies its like one unit and little else.

Like Bullgryns, they aren't better than other armies CC groups but they are the only good option for Guard, as ogryns suck.

Kroot should be better at what they do but should they be able to take on incubi ? I don't think so and I'm sure few others do either. No one is saying they should suck at their job but just not be toe to toe able to match CC focused forces.

Which seems to be exactly what you both are saying in a round about way.

People will always be more incentivized to follow an armys strengths over their weaknesses or go with an army that excels in the focus of a certain editions mechanics.

GW don't really care if thats bad games design so long as they are selling models.


Bullgryns are an excellent example of this, though Ogryn are the exact opposite...

Bullgryns are a sturdy melee heavy hitter that Guard can use to plug a hole in what is otherwise a mostly ranged army. They are expensive to field yes, but they are well worth it and you can give them a few buffs in order to give them a boost. Their only real issue is that I personally don't see the point of taking the ranged option on them. Ogryn on the other hand are an example of it done wrong - not sturdy enough with their 5+ save, not shooty enough, not stabby enough, and far to expensive for what they bring to the table. In an ideal world, both would be legitimately viable options to field with one focused on offense, the other defense, but instead we have one being both stabby and tanky and the other just not having any role at all.

And nobody is saying Kroot need to take on Incubi in close combat, but t3, w1, a1, 6+ save really doesn't do much of anything well. Their only boon is that they are strength 4 so have a slightly better chance of wounding some things, but with no ap on their attacks it won't do much. Currently they don't really fill any role in their army, except for being slightly cheaper than Fire Warriors while being far worse and getting less access to buffs.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Cynista wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Cynista wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Individual identity is not a thing if you're going to have a unit designed for a particular role. Just because Marines aren't KNOWN for artillery it doesn't mean Whirlwinds should be bad. Just because Tau aren't known for melee it doesn't mean Kroot should be bad at the role.

No but it does mean they should be worse at it, point for point, than armies who are thematically inclined that way

So Kroot should be bad?


No but it does mean they should be worse at melee, point for point, than armies who are thematically inclined that way

That's the opposite of good game design LMAO. So should the durable infantry unit for Eldar, Wraithguard, be not durable at all because of the supposed glass cannon trope? Should Skull Cannons just be straight garbage because Daemons don't shoot?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kurhanik wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's weird it ever had T8. Why they nerfed the AP on its shots I have no idea, though.
Compared to a wirlwind. It is OP.


Won't someone please think of the whirlwinds ?!?!?!

As silly as we think of BAD Marine units, they do exist and a whole codex should be usable. Tyranids used to do good at tournaments just because Flyrants and Mawlocs, but nobody chimed in when those Tyranid players wished for usable Gaunts. It's really just hating because Marines get releases and others get less.


I'm just curious, having just idly glanced at thread, wouldn't it be better to buff the Whirlwind up to where Excorcists are instead of nerving the Excorcist down to the Whirlwind's level?


I was actually fine with the functionality of the Exorcist and probably not have changed it outside giving it ignore LoS, which I honestly thought it already did.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 03:58:51


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





First off, we don't even know yet if Exorcists will be getting ignore line of sight, that was a
" What if " at this point.

Second, I'd say a unit having a durable or some durable options for a glass cannon faction isn't a bad idea however one unit does not an army make. Wraith guard are tough but do they end up feeling tougher than say, Death guard which are one of the tough factions ? No of course they don't and that is the point. Though I guess because they aren't as tough as Deathguard they are just straight trash yeah ?

Really the hyperbole in this discussion is out of this world.

The WW isn't even straight trash it just isn't a great option in a codex so full of option and choice its like a great unclean one of knowledge.

However no one would think it made any sense at all if say, a Khorne skull cannon was just straight the best point for point shooting unit in a faction that is near total CC.

Some armies are just better at things than others and their choices may feel meh for a multitude of reasons. GW isn't trying to make a competitive game, just do enough to give people competitive light and switch it around all the time to churn the meta and army lists like so much butter.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 AngryAngel80 wrote:
First off, we don't even know yet if Exorcists will be getting ignore line of sight, that was a
" What if " at this point.

Second, I'd say a unit having a durable or some durable options for a glass cannon faction isn't a bad idea however one unit does not an army make. Wraith guard are tough but do they end up feeling tougher than say, Death guard which are one of the tough factions ? No of course they don't and that is the point. Though I guess because they aren't as tough as Deathguard they are just straight trash yeah ?

Really the hyperbole in this discussion is out of this world.

The WW isn't even straight trash it just isn't a great option in a codex so full of option and choice its like a great unclean one of knowledge.

However no one would think it made any sense at all if say, a Khorne skull cannon was just straight the best point for point shooting unit in a faction that is near total CC.

Some armies are just better at things than others and their choices may feel meh for a multitude of reasons. GW isn't trying to make a competitive game, just do enough to give people competitive light and switch it around all the time to churn the meta and army lists like so much butter.

I'd say Wraithguard are more durable than Blightlord Terminators vs several weapons for the points, especially in the D1 department. Should we decrease their durability now?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kurhanik wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's weird it ever had T8. Why they nerfed the AP on its shots I have no idea, though.
Compared to a wirlwind. It is OP.


Won't someone please think of the whirlwinds ?!?!?!

As silly as we think of BAD Marine units, they do exist and a whole codex should be usable. Tyranids used to do good at tournaments just because Flyrants and Mawlocs, but nobody chimed in when those Tyranid players wished for usable Gaunts. It's really just hating because Marines get releases and others get less.


I'm just curious, having just idly glanced at thread, wouldn't it be better to buff the Whirlwind up to where Excorcists are instead of nerving the Excorcist down to the Whirlwind's level?

Cynista wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Or for units like Kroot, giving them shooting capability (which they pay for) so that they actually cannot spec into purely melee.

With the end result being that they are worse at melee, point for point.


Yes, but it means melee is an option they can use in general and they can use the shooting weapons to soften up an enemy to charge in and tie them down. Nobody is saying a standard Kroot needs to be able to take on Khorne Beserkers in melee unaided.

AngryAngel80 wrote:Since when are we saying GW is about making a good game ? They are all about sell a good model, with good enough rules then mix it up all the time to aid people in buying new stuff.

Making an army bad at somethings better at others then moving it around is exactly in their wheel house.

I do agree though that you should have some options to do all the things but for some armies its like one unit and little else.

Like Bullgryns, they aren't better than other armies CC groups but they are the only good option for Guard, as ogryns suck.

Kroot should be better at what they do but should they be able to take on incubi ? I don't think so and I'm sure few others do either. No one is saying they should suck at their job but just not be toe to toe able to match CC focused forces.

Which seems to be exactly what you both are saying in a round about way.

People will always be more incentivized to follow an armys strengths over their weaknesses or go with an army that excels in the focus of a certain editions mechanics.

GW don't really care if thats bad games design so long as they are selling models.


Bullgryns are an excellent example of this, though Ogryn are the exact opposite...

Bullgryns are a sturdy melee heavy hitter that Guard can use to plug a hole in what is otherwise a mostly ranged army. They are expensive to field yes, but they are well worth it and you can give them a few buffs in order to give them a boost. Their only real issue is that I personally don't see the point of taking the ranged option on them. Ogryn on the other hand are an example of it done wrong - not sturdy enough with their 5+ save, not shooty enough, not stabby enough, and far to expensive for what they bring to the table. In an ideal world, both would be legitimately viable options to field with one focused on offense, the other defense, but instead we have one being both stabby and tanky and the other just not having any role at all.

And nobody is saying Kroot need to take on Incubi in close combat, but t3, w1, a1, 6+ save really doesn't do much of anything well. Their only boon is that they are strength 4 so have a slightly better chance of wounding some things, but with no ap on their attacks it won't do much. Currently they don't really fill any role in their army, except for being slightly cheaper than Fire Warriors while being far worse and getting less access to buffs.



I completely agree with you, stuff like Kroot should be better, and Ogryns of course. I only argued that those units shouldn't be better than the CC focused forces not that they should stay crap. The issue of that got conflated with " What if an exorcist gets ignore line of sight ? Then it's better than a WW ! " First, that is supposition it will get that at this point, second, the exorcist is an Anti tank and anti infantry unit, a whirlwind is just an anti infantry unit so they aren't even comparable in that regard.

I mean at that point why don't we say " It's getting ignore line of sight ? What about my guard Wyvern ? It's just straight better than that ! " They don't do the same thing, they'd just share a similar fire mode.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
First off, we don't even know yet if Exorcists will be getting ignore line of sight, that was a
" What if " at this point.

Second, I'd say a unit having a durable or some durable options for a glass cannon faction isn't a bad idea however one unit does not an army make. Wraith guard are tough but do they end up feeling tougher than say, Death guard which are one of the tough factions ? No of course they don't and that is the point. Though I guess because they aren't as tough as Deathguard they are just straight trash yeah ?

Really the hyperbole in this discussion is out of this world.

The WW isn't even straight trash it just isn't a great option in a codex so full of option and choice its like a great unclean one of knowledge.

However no one would think it made any sense at all if say, a Khorne skull cannon was just straight the best point for point shooting unit in a faction that is near total CC.

Some armies are just better at things than others and their choices may feel meh for a multitude of reasons. GW isn't trying to make a competitive game, just do enough to give people competitive light and switch it around all the time to churn the meta and army lists like so much butter.

I'd say Wraithguard are more durable than Blightlord Terminators vs several weapons for the points, especially in the D1 department. Should we decrease their durability now?


Please, tell us all how wraith guard are really the unit that will win the tanky battle between armies, I mean I see all them threads of how OP them wraith guard be. Just because they are better in some circumstances doesn't mean they are the " toughest ". Feel free to place your thoughts down on it though. I mean this whole discussion is living in what if world but you have to actually place it where the rubber meets the road. A one off unit doesn't make an army something its not and won't win the day on its own either.

Much like how Bullgryn can aide a guard list but don't make up the mainstay of the guard list, and doesn't change the fact the guard are mostly a shooting army just happen to have a tough ( I guess guardsmen are tough now too ? ) CC focused unit to plug a gap but not really beat out other heavy CC hitters in CC focused forces, nor should they. Unless we are making every army the same, with the same focuses and middle of the road functionality,we shouldn't expect every option to go toe to toe with each other especially from a CC focused force.

Every army doing everything equally well to each other is better for competition but more boring for the game. If you want that we should all just agree on the same faction to play vs each other then get the same units with the same upgrades and just hash it out that way every game.

However, I say again, we don't even know if the Exorcist will get the ignore line of sight but if it does, it doesn't make the WW junk, it's rules would end up making it that because GW doesn't cares and seemingly hasn't for quite some time. Though the WW I still don't think is just, it's just not a great option for points and they are better spent else where in a marine list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 06:25:29


 
   
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 AngryAngel80 wrote:
" What if " at this point.
It'd make sense, but GW isn't big into doing things that make sense, so for all we know the range is a misprint and the missiles are now a melee attack.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's weird it ever had T8. Why they nerfed the AP on its shots I have no idea, though.
Compared to a wirlwind. It is OP.


So what?
Well its literally the sisters WW equivalent. So if its better than the space marine version. There is no issue. It should have ILOS though - pretty sure it always has.

It never has been a whirlwind equivalent. As far as I know, WW weren't used to blow up tanks and that has been the only purpose of the exorcist since it's release. If we have to make comparisons, it was basically a lascan predator but with missiles. They added the anti personal missiles in 8th.
It looks like they are just going to repurpose it to make space for the new tank (even though I don't see it piking up the anti tank mantle with 3 heavy bolters either but the special battle canon might be) which is a bit annoying.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 11:51:50


 
   
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 AngryAngel80 wrote:

Kroot should be better at what they do but should they be able to take on incubi ? I don't think so and I'm sure few others do either.


Should Kroot be able to take out a little 80 points squad? Definitely.

Should a little 80 point assault-type squad be able to take out 120 points of Space Marine Infiltrators without even breaking a sweat? Probably not.

But here we are
   
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I think you have to consider things as a package. You get offensive stats, defensive stats and board control. You get army rules etc that effect these.

Do I think Kroot should 1v1 Incubi? Not really. But they have a gun. They have a free move at the start of the game. You get a lot more bodies for your points and objective secured. (Okay its probably not enough but hopefully you see my point).

If you stripped all that away and made Kroot 15 points then yea - +/- some difference, I think they should be up there with Incubi, Repentia and so on. Otherwise what would be the point?

If GW were to release some new dedicated combat Tau units - say Fire Warriors or Crisis Suits with swords - there isn't much point making them crap for their points as no one will run them.

I don't see the problem with them being worth their points, because you can't spend them twice. Someone with 1500 points of "Combat Tau" hasn't also brought 1500 points of Riptides and Broadsides.

I mean we see this with say Marines. GW for some reason clearly doesn't like Marine Tanks - so they are all comparably expensive/inefficient. So how many do you see on the table? Is someone showing up to a game with a couple of Gladiators, or even an ancient Predator, really going to ruin your day?
   
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Given the Exorcist started it's life as a missile-based pun...
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
" What if " at this point.
It'd make sense, but GW isn't big into doing things that make sense, so for all we know the range is a misprint and the missiles are now a melee attack.




Drive closer so I can hit them with my...missiles?!

   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's the opposite of good game design LMAO. So should the durable infantry unit for Eldar, Wraithguard, be not durable at all because of the supposed glass cannon trope? Should Skull Cannons just be straight garbage because Daemons don't shoot?

You are being ridiculous and arguing in bad faith. Nobody has claimed Wraithguard should "not be durable at all" or that Kroot should be bad. You know this, so stop erecting weird strawman arguments. I'm not here for it

And I doubt you know the first thing about game design.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 14:13:03


 
   
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Cynista wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's the opposite of good game design LMAO. So should the durable infantry unit for Eldar, Wraithguard, be not durable at all because of the supposed glass cannon trope? Should Skull Cannons just be straight garbage because Daemons don't shoot?

You are being ridiculous and arguing in bad faith. Nobody has claimed Wraithguard should "not be durable at all" or that Kroot should be bad. You know this, so stop erecting weird strawman arguments. I'm not here for it

And I doubt you know the first thing about game design.

Well I clearly know more than you since you're blabbering that Kroot being better than Fire Warriors in melee actually means anything.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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