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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 the_scotsman wrote:
30k feels superficially much more balanced than 40k because of that fact I mentioned above: A huge percentage of its players are just getting into the game to larp as their favorite anime hero man, so the shape of almost every list is very, very similar compared to the variety present in larger 40k. If you've always got the general framework of one big super beefed-out HQ leading a MEQ or TEQ elite death star, a couple big troop units all armed with boltguns marching in formation, a couple special/heavy weapon squads, and a couple support tanks, then you're starting from a much, much more balanced place than a game where one person has a huge horde of infantry, the next guy has 5 superheavy walkers, the next guy has a mechanized transport force of light infantry, the next guy has a pure melee army with army-wide invulnerable saves, etc etc.


My usual opponents have shown a pretty good variety in lists, within the boundaries of all being Marines:
-Fists army of a few units of heavy infantry (T5 boarding shield dudes) but mostly heavy vehicles gunlining it up
-Same player with an avalanche of Dreadnoughts
-Sons of Horus force with Dreadclaws, Terminators, light tanks, and fast assault infantry moving up the board
-Alpha Legion with mostly infantry and lots of outflanking shenanigans
-Night Lords with in-your-face terror troop drop pod assault

Each of these has played quite differently on the tabletop, so I'm not sure it's fair to characterize every 30K list as homogenous. More similar to one another than in 40K, absolutely, and that definitely helps for balance. The game also seems to have rectified some of the bigger complaints about 7th Ed.

Surprisingly, I have yet to go up against a Primarch. Oh, and you left out the bit where in addition to the Mauler and Helix mortar, there's also the Darkfire Cannon which eats Terminators for breakfast and also blinds the survivors every so often. That one's entertaining when suddenly WS3 bots hit on 3+ in melee and clean up the survivors. Wish the Mechanicum had 40K rules...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/07 16:38:23


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 catbarf wrote:
... the question is more whether they're getting a 3+ from their armor or a 4+ or 5+ invuln from cover
The ease of getting 4+ cover was something of a problem in 5th in devaluing armour saves, particularly the expensive (at the time) 4+ saves. Just dropping generic cover saves to 5+ improves a few aspects of the game IMO.
   
Made in se
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Thanks for the explanations. Cleared it up nicely. I’m surprised to hear that orks aren’t a thing in 30k. Especially since the story of the beast happens very soon after.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/07 18:12:39


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Nerak wrote:
Thanks for the explanations. Cleared it up nicely. I’m surprised to hear that orks aren’t a thing in 30k. Especially since the story of the beast happens very soon after.


Again, purely anecdotal, but my experience with 30k has shown that the lack of xenos or other non-marine armies is a feature, rather than a bug, and the 30k scene tends to swell any time marine players get dissatisfied with their lot in the meta, take their toys and head on up the ol' "no non-marines allowed" treehouse.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 the_scotsman wrote:
 Nerak wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
And it breaks down in 30k too. I just need to say "my army is Legio Cybernetica" for all the "30k is the best balanced evar no problems anywhere with this rules set everyone should play 30k" crowd to IMMEDIATELY switch to whine-mode.


Well I do so enjoy a nice glass of whine.

Joking aside as someone unfamiliar with the 30k ruleset could you explain this? Doesn’t 30k also include the imperial army, robots and orks?


99% of the time in practice a 30k list is a power armor and terminator armor heavy marine army that includes 1 primarch. There are, in theory, GEQ armies, monster heavy armies, knights, flyer heavy armies, but typically if someone is paying the money to get into 30k its because they are compelled by the popular 40k shonen battle anime novel series Horus Heresy and they've got a favorite big muscleboy they want to bring to the table.

Legio Cybernetica is a variant list of Mechanicum that allows you to run basically 100% monsters (which is why I like mechanicum - all the cool retrofuturistic robots, which are sadly still bizarrely absent from 40k)

Legio Cybernetica bots just happen to be armed primarily with AP3 Mauler Bolt Cannons as a main ranged weapon, just happen to have AP3 power blades as a main melee weapon, and the big Thanatar bots happen to have AP2 giant plasma pie-plates that require successful saves to be re-rolled. Also, one of the benefits of building Legio Cybernetica is +1 to initiative - which bumps Castellax from I3 to I4 and Vorax from I4 to I5. And since, in practice, almost every single 30k list happens to be composed overwhelmingly of I4, Sv3+ MEQ models, your Legio Cybernetica list gains a massive amount of power from that little +1 stat bump.

30k feels superficially much more balanced than 40k because of that fact I mentioned above: A huge percentage of its players are just getting into the game to larp as their favorite anime hero man, so the shape of almost every list is very, very similar compared to the variety present in larger 40k. If you've always got the general framework of one big super beefed-out HQ leading a MEQ or TEQ elite death star, a couple big troop units all armed with boltguns marching in formation, a couple special/heavy weapon squads, and a couple support tanks, then you're starting from a much, much more balanced place than a game where one person has a huge horde of infantry, the next guy has 5 superheavy walkers, the next guy has a mechanized transport force of light infantry, the next guy has a pure melee army with army-wide invulnerable saves, etc etc.


Cybernetica's tough, but contrary to it's reputation it's far from unbeatable. Mauler cannons are nasty, yes, but your hundred-point robot with its giant S6/AP3 gun is killing slightly fewer Marines in the open than a hundred points of boltguns in rapid-fire range. Plasma mortars are nasty, yes, but you can a) space to avoid getting too wrecked assuming you don't get greedy and try to deep strike/shoot somewhere it can hit you, b) they're very range-limited (12-24 if they move, 12-48 if they don't), c) don't do a whole lot to most vehicles unless you get lucky, and d) that's a 250pt model that doesn't do a whole lot else. The I buff is cool, but if you can't kill T6/4+ Vorax moving 6" a turn before they get to melee with you then your army may be underarmed.

I think there are Legion lists that break 30k far more effectively than Cybernetica does. Guard of the Crimson King, for instance. Questoris isn't even that bad if you're playing 2,500pts+, you may have a lot of superheavy walkers but the ion shield is still only one arc, their shooting isn't anything like as mean as it is in 40k, and non-tailored lists still have ways of dealing with them.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




To this day, 4th remains my favourite edition. Bringing in true line of sight has been a big negative, IMO.
4th also truly had a variety of different scenarios, which I still go back to.
   
Made in us
Crazed Troll Slayer




Charlotte, NC

I never played a game of the 4th, but it is great to hear that you got one in and liked playing it. Hopefully you can get more played in the future.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Texas

At the original poster. I first got into 40k as an outrider during the launch of 4th edition. So it certainly has some nostalgic feels for me. The things I really liked from it was how easy the codex's where to use to build your forces and how most army listed pushed you to put troops on the table versus trying get mostly "rare" stuff on the board. The things I remember not liking was how few guns could kill space marines and how overpowered hand to hand combat was. The game seemed to become more of building the best hand to hand combat army then a balanced or good ranged combat army. I always felt a game that included guns, should favor the army with guns versus swords and axes.

I think it is absolutely great that you and your friend took the time to run this experiment and the fact ya'll had fun was the real "test" that you passed to show it was worth it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 15:06:34


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sometimes I think I'm the only person who liked the all-or-nothing AP system...
You are definitely not the only one. It was solid, imo. It just began to break because of the AP2-3 creep that began in 5th ed.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
It just began to break because of the AP2-3 creep that began in 5th ed.
*Laughs in 3e eldar/dark eldar*

Though you did start to see quite a bit more in the way of AP3 templates and small arms, and on the flip-side more invulnerables and cover generators popping up.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Insectum7 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sometimes I think I'm the only person who liked the all-or-nothing AP system...
You are definitely not the only one. It was solid, imo. It just began to break because of the AP2-3 creep that began in 5th ed.


"The main problem with the armor piercing system was those times when my armor got pierced and I didn't get any save, then it sucked. When I got to ignore the opponent's stats entirely and got my full save, I really liked it!"

I'm mostly kidding here, but this tends to be the general attitude I see from the (mostly space marine fans) who liked the old AP system. They grumble and go 'this is bs' when an AP-1 weapon causes them to make 4+ saves instead of 3+ saves, and they'd grumble and go 'this is bs' when you told them some weapon your army had was AP3 under the old system. Weapons that are unfluffy because they are AP3/AP2 under the old system generally included:

-Anything in a horde army
-Anything with a blast template
-Any psychic power
-Any special/heavy weapon that differs from ones imperials have
-Any special/heavy weapon that works the same as an imperial one but looks different

For me who played Orks basically the whole time I was playing with the old AP system, the way the system worked was, you didn't have armor saves, basically ever. The times when I got to make save rolls, it was basically like a little mini joke, and I would gently pat the one boy out of the trukk boyz squad who made his save on the head and tell him he was a good little ork before he promptly ran away due to morale at the end of the turn.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






A.T. wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
It just began to break because of the AP2-3 creep that began in 5th ed.
*Laughs in 3e eldar/dark eldar*

Though you did start to see quite a bit more in the way of AP3 templates and small arms, and on the flip-side more invulnerables and cover generators popping up.
My bro played DE in 3rd and 4th, and yeah they could pack the AP2-3 pretty heavily. But they were also made of paper! In that army it wound up balancing quite well.

I remember picking up my SM codex for 5th, seeing that Sternguard were now a thing (replacing Veteran Squads), and rolling my eyes at their ability to give every model a combi-plasma. Like: "Oh I guess we're doing this now :/"

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

There was only one model in the whole Tyranid army with access to AP3 and AP2 ranged weapons, the Zoanthrope (and it was actually a psychic power).

Even venom cannons and rupture cannons were AP4 for some weird reasons (and venom cannons also had -1 to damage table to make them even more worthless).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 17:31:43


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 the_scotsman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sometimes I think I'm the only person who liked the all-or-nothing AP system...
You are definitely not the only one. It was solid, imo. It just began to break because of the AP2-3 creep that began in 5th ed.


"The main problem with the armor piercing system was those times when my armor got pierced and I didn't get any save, then it sucked. When I got to ignore the opponent's stats entirely and got my full save, I really liked it!"

I'm mostly kidding here, but this tends to be the general attitude I see from the (mostly space marine fans) who liked the old AP system. They grumble and go 'this is bs' when an AP-1 weapon causes them to make 4+ saves instead of 3+ saves, and they'd grumble and go 'this is bs' when you told them some weapon your army had was AP3 under the old system. Weapons that are unfluffy because they are AP3/AP2 under the old system generally included:

-Anything in a horde army
-Anything with a blast template
-Any psychic power
-Any special/heavy weapon that differs from ones imperials have
-Any special/heavy weapon that works the same as an imperial one but looks different
Many Space Marine players feel entitled, news at 11

AP2-3 was certainly justified in many places, and prior to 5th I felt it worked well. 5th+ began to have major issues with how heavily it was spread around, even among SM armies.

 the_scotsman wrote:
For me who played Orks basically the whole time I was playing with the old AP system, the way the system worked was, you didn't have armor saves, basically ever. The times when I got to make save rolls, it was basically like a little mini joke, and I would gently pat the one boy out of the trukk boyz squad who made his save on the head and tell him he was a good little ork before he promptly ran away due to morale at the end of the turn.
Well. . . those Boyz wouldn't have gotten a save in 2nd ed either (even Lasguns had a -1). . . and how often are they getting a save against Intercessors these days?

Actually my bro played Orks in 3rd-4th too, and I remember KFFs and smoke screens from Bikes if I'm remembering correctly. And I remember a lot of those games being tight AF.

Orks had the Choppa then, too, which reduced both PA and T-armor to 4+. You wanna hear SM players cry BS? That Ork Choppa brought it out! Terrifying weapon.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

The old AP system and to an extent cover saves are two of my least favourite things about those editions. Modifiers are much better in my opinion and represent the fictional universe in a more satisfying way.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Da Boss wrote:
The old AP system and to an extent cover saves are two of my least favourite things about those editions. Modifiers are much better in my opinion and represent the fictional universe in a more satisfying way.


Old AP and old vehicle rules worked a whole hell of a lot better in systems where weapons don't have QUITE the length and breadth that the weapons represented in warhammer do - like the WW2 systems they were probably adapted from originally.

if the smallest gun someone's going to be firing at a tank is something like a soviet anti-tank rifle and the biggest a german 88mm flak cannon, you can make a 'roll to pen' D6 based system work a whole lot better than if the range is between a basic infantry pistol and a planet-cracking gigundus laser beam.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

I've wondered if it would be mechanically satisfying to just use a table (boo, hiss), instead of doing either modifiers or all-or-nothing.

Like, maybe have AP4 (autocannons, heavy bolters, etc) do this:
-2+ stays at 2+
-3+ gets degraded to 4+
-4+ gets degraded to 6+
-5+ or worse gets no save at all

It's not quite all-or-nothing (which gets real skewed when a majority of armies on the table are Sv3+ or better), nor is it purely linear degradation (which makes AP-1 doubly effective as AP0 against Terminators, and yet not able to ignore a Guardsman's armor). Plot five different save values against six different AP values and it wouldn't even be that big of a table.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

When we did our own version of the rules we took the name of a rule that existed in Necromunda at the time (High Impact) and made it a -1 Save Mod. This allowed us to remove some of the weirdness that came with the AP system by allowing some of the outlier weapons to have an effect on armour.

Basically High Impact could be applied to any weapon, and automatically applied to any weapon S8 and above. Choppas gained High Impact, so that their effects were even (ie. -1 vs Terminators and Guard, rather than reducing to 4+ vs Terminators and nothing vs Guard, which never made much sense).

Meant that Terminators saved on a 3+ vs Krak Missiles, Marines on 4+ vs Autocannons. That sort of thing.

Worked quite well, even if it was just a patch.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 23:09:18


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Insectum7 wrote:

Orks had the Choppa then, too, which reduced both PA and T-armor to 4+. You wanna hear SM players cry BS? That Ork Choppa brought it out! Terrifying weapon.


Indeed. But choppa boyz were S3 and also quite expensive at 9ppm which balanced things out. SM were always quite tough for orks in 3rd, considering TAC lists at least.


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
Orks had the Choppa then, too, which reduced both PA and T-armor to 4+. You wanna hear SM players cry BS? That Ork Choppa brought it out! Terrifying weapon.
Statistically speaking a charging 4e ork with a mundane AP- choppa will do exactly the same damage to a marine as the 3e ork, and you'd get 50% more of them.

Cognitive difference between 'my orks are stronger because they are charging in' and 'I disregard your armour save and substitute my own'
   
Made in nl
Fixture of Dakka





Look I make balloon animal

I started playing during late 5th ed. so I never played 4th, but this thread makes me want to give it a try. I miss the vehicle rules and big blast templates from the earlier editions sometimes.

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






A.T. wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Orks had the Choppa then, too, which reduced both PA and T-armor to 4+. You wanna hear SM players cry BS? That Ork Choppa brought it out! Terrifying weapon.
Statistically speaking a charging 4e ork with a mundane AP- choppa will do exactly the same damage to a marine as the 3e ork, and you'd get 50% more of them.

Cognitive difference between 'my orks are stronger because they are charging in' and 'I disregard your armour save and substitute my own'
Interesting. I didn't wind up playing against the 4-5th ed Ork book (it came out very late in 4th iirc.), but right off the bat I'm thinking the results were not the same vs. Terminator Armor .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 04:42:17


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard




washington state USA

I own a copy of the 4th ed ork book to use in our 5th ed hybrid games and i must say it is very orky and a fantastic codex. i posted a batrep in my old editions topic where i fought a boys horde army using that dex. it was a bloody brawl and the orks ended up winning in the end even though most of them had "t-shirt" saves.



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

That codex is the most fun I've ever had playing 40k. Loads of different viable builds, really fun and flavourful, and a great model release alongside it.

   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

I prefer the 3rd edition ork codex, as that 4th-5th already encourages and allows to spam the most competitive stuff. There was no cheese at all in the 3rd edition ork codex, and yet it let players build quite competitive lists. But I also adore that 4th edition ork codex and 5th edition of 40k (never played 4th, with my group we kept playing 3rd until 5th, mostly because we weren't aware of the new edition, we were kids in an era of no internet), don't get me wrong.


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Wait, the 3rd Edition Ork Codex? You mean the one that didn't even have a weapon summary because it was in the main rulebook? That one?

That was immediately post-Gorkamorka, when all the flavour (not to mention colour) had been drained from the Orks. Where their wierd and wacky artillery became "Kannon" and "Lobba". Where everything was a generic Goff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 10:20:31


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Yeah, and what's the problem, you needed the rulebook anyway. Just 5 weapons (slugga, shoota, big shoota, rokkit launcha, grot blasta) were actually missing from the codex and available only by weapons summary from the rulebook. Not a big deal.

Lots of stuff were removed from the previous codex but I never liked 2nd edition ork silly stuff anyway . The 4th edition codex also removed stuff from the previous one.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

I started playing in third edition and I stopped playing 40K at 6th edition. I disliked the direction it was going and never looked back.
Me and my buddies still play a hybrid of 4th and 5th edition, basically taking the best of both editions and throwing out the stuff we don't like. Lots of rule changes and trying to balance as best we can. Incorporate newer models with older rules so that they still work.

Its now our game and is still fun to push figure around the table making pew pew noises every now and them. Its just become comfortable.

See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sometimes I think I'm the only person who liked the all-or-nothing AP system...
You are definitely not the only one. It was solid, imo. It just began to break because of the AP2-3 creep that began in 5th ed.


you could say the same about the ASM system as well - it's fine so long as it doesn't creep up.

All or nothing didn't make sense, and skewed heavily in favour of marine armies, which is perhaps why it's looked at fondly.

IMO, they need to strip back the ASM system again, to only 3 values:

Anti infantry: -1ASM
Anti Tank: -2 ASM
Anti Materiel: -3 ASM

And these rules should only be attached to specialist weapons, not standard line weapons.

If you removed the AP system from 4th/5th and applied this instead with no exceptions, you'd be fine.

Take weapons from 4th and apply the above like this:

AP4 = -1
AP3 = -2
AP2 = -3
AP1 = -4 (if you really have to...)

AP5 and 6 become 0.

I would probably apply the above to melee weapons in 4th as well:

Chainsword/choppa -1
Power sword -2
power fist -3




So long as they don't give the majority weapons ASM then the game should play fine. Marines get taken out be special/heavy weapons like they should, line weapons get used in volume etc.


I would also make BS and WS vs target's initiative instead of the previous rules and have attacks made in the order of whose turn it is. Now Initiative directly affects your ability to be hit, so tyranids and eldar actually use their speed for defence.







   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

If you wanted to tie to-hit to initiative you'd need to significantly revamp initiative. Initiative in general is a poorly implemented stat even for the purpose it was designed. It would be a lot more interesting if for example Devastators were slower than Tacticals to represent heavy equipment.

I do definitely agree on armour save modifiers though. The all or nothing system is quite unsatisfactory to me. Modifiers are much better, you just need to not hand out AP2 to standard fething small arms!
It does somewhat devalue invulns though. If the highest AP you'll ever get hit by is -3 then a 5+ invuln is never useful to 2+ armour (see: Terminators).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/19 07:23:05


 
   
 
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