How best to add female space marines - The Lore

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**Sledgehammer**

alextroy wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:
Space marines are at their core militant orders of fraternal religious brethren that crusade across the galaxy in the name of their god. The sisters are a sorority of religious sisters that crusade across the galaxy in the name of their god. To throw all of the themes of catholic orders, and crusades out simply to appease that is ludicrous.
I must disagree.

Space Marines are transhuman warriors armed with the best weapons and armor available to the Imperium.

Sisters of Battle are an order of female fanatical religious servants of the Imperial Church armed with the best weapons and armor the Church can purchase.

Space marine chapters and members religiosity varies greatly. Every single Sister of Battle is a religious fanatic.

They absolutely are based off of orders militant. There is no disputing that.

**CEO Kasen**

SemperMortis wrote:
Xenos 40k Players for a decade: Hey can we get some new sculpts for literally any of the Xenos armies?
Imperial 40k Players for a decade: No, they aren't popular enough and they wont sell enough to justify the production costs.

And than You: "We should do all the things to include others"

I'm being a bit silly here and over simplifying it, but damn dude, how many people would jump on the "FEMALE SPEESE MEHREENS!" bandwagon compared to how many players they would lose because this was the straw that broke the camels back, waiting years for an update, getting salty about the ridiculous amounts of SPEESE MEHREENS! only to be told, yeah we wont be making new models for Eldar/Nidz, Tau etc because we need to push out this pet project to appease the woke mob.

Do not get me wrong: "Space Marines have gotten too much attention lately" is a problem, and we're still recovering from Marine fatigue. I get that, I agree with that, fully, and it's for that reason I'm not saying this needs to happen nownownow. It absolutely should happen - but it can wait for a bit. I'd like it if they said FSM were coming and that the lore was officially updated to match in the more immediate term, but models? Whenever they were going to release more Marine stuff anyway, they throw in some head sprues. Boom.

EDIT: Derp, didn't respond to part 2:

As for the financial impact - That's difficult to evaluate. There would be some immediate fits, but in the long term I think they'd get more players than they lost, because A) if you haven't been turned off by all the other gak GW's done, why would this be the final straw?, and B) as I said, If I heard another game's longterm fans were having a hissy-fit about a major faction's suddenly increased gender representation, I'd check that game out in a heartbeat.

**alextroy**

Sledgehammer wrote:
alextroy wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:
Space marines are at their core militant orders of fraternal religious brethren that crusade across the galaxy in the name of their god. The sisters are a sorority of religious sisters that crusade across the galaxy in the name of their god. To throw all of the themes of catholic orders, and crusades out simply to appease that is ludicrous.
I must disagree.

Space Marines are transhuman warriors armed with the best weapons and armor available to the Imperium.

Sisters of Battle are an order of female fanatical religious servants of the Imperial Church armed with the best weapons and armor the Church can purchase.

Space marine chapters and members religiosity varies greatly. Every single Sister of Battle is a religious fanatic.
They absolutely are based off of orders militant. There is no disputing that.

Organizationally, yes. But that is not what sets them apart. The entire Imperium of Man is dripping with religious themes, so that doesn't really matter. What makes space marines different from other special forces of the Imperium is they are transhuman, not that they have some monastic traditions.

**Gert**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Space Marines still have a religious aspect though.

SM are specifically noted as generally being not religious and instead view the Emperor as a kind of father figure of Humanity rather than a God. Worship isn't inherently a religious thing.

They have Chaplains in their ranks,

Chaplains look after the spiritual and mental wellbeing of the Chapter, indoctrinate Aspirants into the Chapter creed, guard the relics of the Chapter, and are enforcers of the Codex Astartes.

they live and train in Fortress Monasteries,

Living in a Monastery doesn't make you religious.

they spend a lot of time praying,

Prayer and meditation are similar also technically not inherently religious.

they refer to each other as Brother (which also has a double meaning)

They all have the same dad.

they are organized in Chapters,

Not inherently religious.

and they do have some design elements reminiscent of Knightly Orders, although it's more obvious in a few cases than most.

Only very recently has GW gone for "Knightly" SM designs with Indomitus.

They might not be the militant arm of the Church and absolute fanatics like the Sisters (barring, of course, a couple of notable Chapters), but they are not a secular organization.

It explicitly states in the SM Codex that they aren't religious.

I guess they are comparable to the Brotherhood of Steel from Fallout? Not overtly religious, but the monastic inspiration is clear.

IMO that's a great comparison since monastic living doesn't require you to be religious.

Just for clarity, very pro-female SM but the rest of the range needs updating first. Except for Aedlari Guardians. They must stay.

**psipso**

I thought that once implanted the gen-seed, an SM is asexual, so what's the point of having females or males? They are neither of them.

They have the same aspect because of the heavy modifications and implants and they are no longer human.

**PappyNurgle**

I've actually been tinkering with a DA or RG Primaris chapter using all female or mixed gender heads, actually.

Now, I'm still going through the newest lore changes and reading through all the nuances of stuff, but my thought is this. There are no female space marines. The original, firstborn gene stock were incompatible with female biology and thus short of warp shenanigans by Slaanesh or Tzeentch, female Astartes just weren't possible.

Then here comes Cawl with Primaris marines and the initial surge of reinforcements swells the Astartes ranks and gives the Imperium a second wind. It also acts as a sort of test for Cawl. As the Firstborn chapters settle in and get acclimated to the Primaris' introduction and performance on the field, he kicks in the second half of his plans.

He'd figured out how to make the geneseed not dependent on testosterone, or at least not exclusively dependent. That little shift allows him to use female biology, though it is, perhaps, either more dangerous or more experimental or whatever you wanna slap into there to show they have reduced numbers in comparison. Or, you could just argue that he did a thorough job and women becoming Primaris are just as as numerous as men becoming Primaris.

With the first, full wave of Primaris marines running amuck and the Imperium as a whole settling in to getting used to the New Boys kicking tail and taking names, here comes the second wave of either all women or mixed gender Primaris. Probably received similarly to the Primaris' first wave, but you just have Guilleman do the rounds again with Cawl and things eventually settle down.

For the purist fans out there, doubt Cawl and Guilleman showboating will put out the fires of pure rage, but you can't make everyone happy, so there's that as well.

Just my thoughts.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Arguable the knightly influence predates Indomitus; the beaky helmets were inspired by the Houndskul helmet.
And of course we have the Mark II and III armors which also take inspiration from medieval helmets.

As I said, Brother has a double-meaning; it is both a reference to their lineage to the Emperor and also a nod to monastic life.

Also, I left out Crusades. Which is pretty obvious reference to, well, the Crusades, again showing the Knightly Order reference.

Perhaps religious is not the right word to describe them, but they do have heavy monastic knight undertones.

**CEO Kasen**

psipso wrote:
I thought that once implanted the gen-seed, an SM is asexual, so what's the point of having females or males? They are neither of them.

They have the same aspect because of the heavy modifications and implants and they are no longer human.

If Marines were always referred to as "They" rather than "He," that might be closer to valid, but they're not - and aspirants are canonically all monogendered.

If it was canonical that both genders went through the process and came out looking extremely similar, that'd still be a huge improvement.

**Arbitrator**

Edit: Misread post I quoted.

**SemperMortis**

CEO Kasen wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Xenos 40k Players for a decade: Hey can we get some new sculpts for literally any of the Xenos armies?
Imperial 40k Players for a decade: No, they aren't popular enough and they wont sell enough to justify the production costs.

And than You: "We should do all the things to include others"

I'm being a bit silly here and over simplifying it, but damn dude, how many people would jump on the "FEMALE SPEESE MEHREENS!" bandwagon compared to how many players they would lose because this was the straw that broke the camels back, waiting years for an update, getting salty about the ridiculous amounts of SPEESE MEHREENS! only to be told, yeah we wont be making new models for Eldar/Nidz, Tau etc because we need to push out this pet project to appease the woke mob.

Do not get me wrong: "Space Marines have gotten too much attention lately" is a problem, and we're still recovering from Marine fatigue. I get that, I agree with that, fully, and it's for that reason I'm not saying this needs to happen nownownow. It absolutely should happen - but it can wait for a bit. I'd like it if they said FSM were coming and that the lore was officially updated to match in the more immediate term, but models? Whenever they were going to release more Marine stuff anyway, they throw in some head sprues. Boom.

EDIT: Derp, didn't respond to part 2:

As for the financial impact - That's difficult to evaluate. There would be some immediate fits, but in the long term I think they'd get more players than they lost, because A) if you haven't been turned off by all the other gak GW's done, why would this be the final straw?, and B) as I said, If I heard another game's longterm fans were having a hissy-fit about a major faction's suddenly increased gender representation, I'd check that game out in a heartbeat.

"It absolutely should happen" Why? is it just too much to ask for the woke mob to not ruin everything in their attempt to make everything the same? Can you name me a single person who said "I was going to start playing 40k but when I found out there was only a single ALL FEMALE army that was just massively updated with new rules and a feth ton of new models...I couldn't play the game in good conscious".

Should we have Female Necrons as well? How about Female Orkz? Why? The only reason I can see is to appease the woke mob who scream and complain and than when a company finally gives in, it loses money and fans because the 12 people who fought the issue tooth and nail had no intention of actually playing the game in the first place.

**CthuluIsSpy**

I don't know man, I think it would be rad and hilarious if Necrons got Pillar-men and Pillar-Women as part of their reverse biotransference experiments, complete with well-oiled abs.

**Castozor**

Well correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Necrons technically man and woman already? Since every single one of them got uploaded (?) into their new skeletal forms.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Castozor wrote:
Well correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Necrons technically man and woman already? Since every single one of them got uploaded (?) into their new skeletal forms.

Yeah, and we also know that there are, indeed, female necrons, as one of the dynasty heads is a Queen. There's a title they used for the female version of a pharon, but I forgot was it was.
Chances are though that since most necrons got their personality and memory wiped the vast majority of them are just genderless droids.
Personally I preferred them being a faceless legion of kill-bots, but that's just me.

**Gert**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Arguable the knightly influence predates Indomitus; the beaky helmets were inspired by the Houndskul helmet.
And of course we have the Mark II and III armors which also take inspiration from medieval helmets.

Nobody looks at a Mk6 Helmet and thinks anything but "Bird", hence beaky. Mk2/3 yeah they look very knightly but they aren't the primary armour used by SM of either Primaris or Firstborn. Mk7 and MkX are generic scifi super soldier looks.

How is praying not an inherently religious activity? The purpose of prayer is to commune with a deity.

Technically you can pray to anything you worship and worship isn't inherently a religious activity. It is a point of contention because the Emperor has influenced events before and is pretty godlike but what about prayers of activation and junk for machines? They aren't worshipping the machines (well some are but it's rare) but they still do prayers.

Also, I left out Crusades. Which is pretty obvious reference to, well, the Crusades, again showing the Knightly Order reference.

Yeah, absolutely the Christian Crusades are an influence but crusade is also a synonym for campaign. Not all military actions conducted by SM or even the Imperium are called crusades but it sounds cooler than "Damocles Gulf War" or "Indomitus War". Personally, I would prefer GW switched it out from time to time because it gets boring. Would "Indomitus Reclamation" have been so bad?

There absolutely are influences from multiple religious institutions but saying that SM are a religious order just because they share a couple of similarities with X Medieval Christian institution is a stretch.

**CthuluIsSpy**

I do agree that the Mk7 are indeed sci-fi helmets as they appear to be stormtrooper helmet knockoffs.
I'd argue though that the MkX does have some slight influence from medieval helmets, as the respirator plate does look similar to what some of those helmets have.

As I wrote earlier, perhaps religious is the wrong word for them, but they do take inspiration from Knightly Orders and monks.

**Sledgehammer**

If you're going to concede that space marines are organizationally, and culturally (maybe even if some aren't religious they have do what amounts to religious rituals) based on orders militant, then you must also concede that by allowing for the opposite sex to join you're undermining that fundamental aspect of their identity. Same goes for sisters. Faction identity is important, and the word crusade is used very intentionally in 40k.

**CEO Kasen**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't know man, I think it would be rad and hilarious if Necrons got Pillar-men and Pillar-Women as part of their reverse biotransference experiments, complete with well-oiled abs.

I know at one point I was honestly curious if Necrons had sexual dimorphism or not and whether or not that carried into biotransference.

Also, I posted this in the other thread, but this is similar just want to thank very nearly all of you on either side for remaining quite civil on this topic - This is actually pretty enjoyable so far.

Maybe it's because I have a better grasp of the topic than the last time around, but I'm quite liking these threads and generally how they're turning out. Makes me hopeful that it won't just be a taboo firestarter topic that nothing ever gets done about because no one can ever discuss it on neutral ground.

SemperMortis wrote:

"It absolutely should happen" Why? is it just too much to ask for the woke mob to not ruin everything in their attempt to make everything the same? Can you name me a single person who said "I was going to start playing 40k but when I found out there was only a single ALL FEMALE army that was just massively updated with new rules and a feth ton of new models...I couldn't play the game in good conscious".

Should we have Female Necrons as well? How about Female Orkz? Why? The only reason I can see is to appease the woke mob who scream and complain and than when a company finally gives in, it loses money and fans because the 12 people who fought the issue tooth and nail had no intention of actually playing the game in the first place.

It's rarely so binary a decision. It's a bunch of little things and small thoughts that add up. It's hard to tell what constitutes the tipping point between someone checking out a game versus not checking it out. Maybe you'd rather not be a hyper-religious zealot? Maybe you saw the Dark Angels or Space Wolves and thought "I'd like to do that, but... Oh, they're only men?... I see..." I certainly know at least one person who would like to do an FSM Raven Guard successor.

In addition to bringing people in, it is in part about disempowering the people who actually are bigoted and using the lore - lore that basically has little structural or thematic effect in Warhammer, as Guardsmen, Inquisitors, and High Lords of Terra can be women at this point - as a cudgel to keep other genders out of their playspaces. I am not suggesting you're one of them, but they do exist. If GW is indeed backing up its claim that "Warhammer Is For Everyone," this is a logical step in that regard.

And... please chill. Breathe. I think you're very much overestimating the negative consequences of this decision. Like I said - GW does objectively stupid stuff all the time, and despite it they still seem to be doing just fine. I do not think that FSM is a dumber or more objectionable decision than, say, constant price hikes or Primaris Marines or the Start of 9th points changes. Indeed, I hate those and yet they seem to be making GW more money than ever. If those didn't financially ruin the hobby, then neither will FSM, unless GW truly does something so bizarrely and inexplicably objectionable with the release even I can't immediately picture it.

**Gert**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't know man, I think it would be rad and hilarious if Necrons got Pillar-men and Pillar-Women as part of their reverse biotransference experiments, complete with well-oiled abs.

The 9th Edition teaser for Crons had buff Necrons in the trailer and I am beyond outraged that there are no buff Necrons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
As I wrote earlier, perhaps religious is the wrong word for them, but they do take inspiration from Knightly Orders and monks.

I think that's the important point to remember. SM take inspiration from loads of different places to the point where they are one thing only, Space Marines. One person could find 20 examples of SM being crusading Knights and another could find 20 examples of SM being stealthy Ninja-Assassins, then a third person comes along with fur-clad Barbarian berserkers.

**Sledgehammer**

Gert wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't know man, I think it would be rad and hilarious if Necrons got Pillar-men and Pillar-Women as part of their reverse biotransference experiments, complete with well-oiled abs.

The 9th Edition teaser for Crons had buff Necrons in the trailer and I am beyond outraged that there are no buff Necrons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
As I wrote earlier, perhaps religious is the wrong word for them, but they do take inspiration from Knightly Orders and monks.

I think that's the important point to remember. SM take inspiration from loads of different places to the point where they are one thing only, Space Marines. One person could find 20 examples of SM being crusading Knights and another could find 20 examples of SM being stealthy Ninja-Assassins, then a third person comes along with fur-clad Barbarian berserkers.

Yeah and they've been what they are (male only) for 30 years.

**Sgt_Smudge**

psipso wrote:I thought that once implanted the gen-seed, an SM is asexual, so what's the point of having females or males? They are neither of them.

Just want to clear something up here on the words here.

Asexual means no sexual attraction. Not agender, which is not having a gender.
However, yes, Space Marines do seem to be asexual. As for them being agender, that is more complicated. They use male pronouns, but whether that's because of them being AMAB or simply just using male pronouns as Space Marines is unclear.

What would be interesting is if women recruits adopted male pronouns upon becoming Astartes. And, you could expand on that further, with some Chapters doing the opposite (some Chapters using all-female pronouns - a hypothetical Shieldmaidens of Russ Chapter, for example), or others either having mixed gender, or no gender at all (going by gender-neutral pronouns, and only seeing themselves as "Astartes").

Basically, Space Marine gender is not exactly clearly understood.

SemperMortis wrote:"It absolutely should happen" Why?

Why shouldn't it?

is it just too much to ask for the woke mob to not ruin everything in their attempt to make everything the same?

First "ruin"? Why is this "ruining" anything? Second, having a visibly mixed gender super soldier force, in such a prominent position as 40k? That's not "the same" as everything else.

Hell, if you want to talk about things being the same, we should probably start by making Space Marines ONLY women, and making the unaugmented power armoured humans all male - that would *really* make things unique.

Should we have Female Necrons as well?

... we already do.

How about Female Orkz?

Orks are fungi. Not humans.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, and we also know that there are, indeed, female necrons, as one of the dynasty heads is a Queen. There's a title they used for the female version of a pharon, but I forgot was it was.

I believe the term is Phaerahk?

Chances are though that since most necrons got their personality and memory wiped the vast majority of them are just genderless droids.

Yeah, most Necrons are lacking an identity overall, let alone a gender identity. More than likely, it's only your Immortals, Lychguard, Triarch, and ruling courts who would have anything like that.

Sledgehammer wrote:If you're going to concede that space marines are organizationally, and culturally (maybe even if some aren't religious they have do what amounts to religious rituals) based on orders militant, then you must also concede that by allowing for the opposite sex to join you're undermining that fundamental aspect of their identity.

And similarly, I would think that having such a hard restriction on what Space Marines can be is undermining the more fundamental aspect of their player freedoms and customisation.

I've raised this point previously, and I won't go in depth (if you want to, please feel free to look in the other thread, and perhaps not debate this here, as per OP's request), but basically, as other users have said, Space Marines are really not *that* closely tied to their whole Warrior-Monk image. I mean, look at the Space Wolves. Look at the Raptors. Look at the Black Dragons. Their primary identifiers aren't their (few) monastic ways, but their cultures and larger aesthetic ideals. Space Marines are far often more organisationally based on the the cultures they ape from and copy - and as I believe previously mentioned, we're all very happy to handwave aircraft, tanks and big zoggin' guns into what I'm sure the Orders Militant didn't have.

If having women undermines the Orders Militant, why doesn't also having a big old tank or jump jet strapped to your back?

Faction identity is important, and the word crusade is used very intentionally in 40k.

Guardsmen are also part of those crusades. They're a mixed gender faction. Hell, the actual *Crusaders*, a unit in game, has no restriction on gender, from my understanding.

And, just to hammer that "faction identity is important" - you're right. It is important - which is why it blows my mind that people think that Sisters of Battle are anywhere equivalent to women Space Marines. I mean, that'd be like saying that you don't need male Space Marines, you have Custodes! They're two completely distinct factions, with their own "important faction identity" as you put it. Ergo, Sisters of Battle aren't a replacement for women Space Marines.

Anyways, if you want to see much more in depth arguments, you're welcome to see them in the other thread, rather than have to see them all over here again.

**Andykp**

This got toxic quick.

**Sledgehammer**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
psipso wrote:I thought that once implanted the gen-seed, an SM is asexual, so what's the point of having females or males? They are neither of them.
Just want to clear something up here on the words here.

Asexual means no sexual attraction. Not agender, which is not having a gender.
However, yes, Space Marines do seem to be asexual. As for them being agender, that is more complicated. They use male pronouns, but whether that's because of them being AMAB or simply just using male pronouns as Space Marines is unclear.

What would be interesting is if women recruits adopted male pronouns upon becoming Astartes. And, you could expand on that further, with some Chapters doing the opposite (some Chapters using all-female pronouns - a hypothetical Shieldmaidens of Russ Chapter, for example), or others either having mixed gender, or no gender at all (going by gender-neutral pronouns, and only seeing themselves as "Astartes").

Basically, Space Marine gender is not exactly clearly understood.

SemperMortis wrote:"It absolutely should happen" Why?
Why shouldn't it?
is it just too much to ask for the woke mob to not ruin everything in their attempt to make everything the same?
First "ruin"? Why is this "ruining" anything? Second, having a visibly mixed gender super soldier force, in such a prominent position as 40k? That's not "the same" as everything else.

Hell, if you want to talk about things being the same, we should probably start by making Space Marines ONLY women, and making the unaugmented power armoured humans all male - that would *really* make things unique.
Should we have Female Necrons as well?
... we already do.
How about Female Orkz?
Orks are fungi. Not humans.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, and we also know that there are, indeed, female necrons, as one of the dynasty heads is a Queen. There's a title they used for the female version of a pharon, but I forgot was it was.
I believe the term is Phaerahk?

Chances are though that since most necrons got their personality and memory wiped the vast majority of them are just genderless droids.
Yeah, most Necrons are lacking an identity overall, let alone a gender identity. More than likely, it's only your Immortals, Lychguard, Triarch, and ruling courts who would have anything like that.

Sledgehammer wrote:If you're going to concede that space marines are organizationally, and culturally (maybe even if some aren't religious they have do what amounts to religious rituals) based on orders militant, then you must also concede that by allowing for the opposite sex to join you're undermining that fundamental aspect of their identity.
And similarly, I would think that having such a hard restriction on what Space Marines can be is undermining the more fundamental aspect of their player freedoms and customisation.

I've raised this point previously, and I won't go in depth (if you want to, please feel free to look in the other thread, and perhaps not debate this here, as per OP's request), but basically, as other users have said, Space Marines are really not *that* closely tied to their whole Warrior-Monk image. I mean, look at the Space Wolves. Look at the Raptors. Look at the Black Dragons. Their primary identifiers aren't their (few) monastic ways, but their cultures and larger aesthetic ideals. Space Marines are far often more organisationally based on the the cultures they ape from and copy - and as I believe previously mentioned, we're all very happy to handwave aircraft, tanks and big zoggin' guns into what I'm sure the Orders Militant didn't have.

If having women undermines the Orders Militant, why doesn't also having a big old tank or jump jet strapped to your back?
Faction identity is important, and the word crusade is used very intentionally in 40k.
Guardsmen are also part of those crusades. They're a mixed gender faction. Hell, the actual *Crusaders*, a unit in game, has no restriction on gender, from my understanding.

And, just to hammer that "faction identity is important" - you're right. It is important - which is why it blows my mind that people think that Sisters of Battle are anywhere equivalent to women Space Marines. I mean, that'd be like saying that you don't need male Space Marines, you have Custodes! They're two completely distinct factions, with their own "important faction identity" as you put it. Ergo, Sisters of Battle aren't a replacement for women Space Marines.

Anyways, if you want to see much more in depth arguments, you're welcome to see them in the other thread, rather than have to see them all over here again.

And i'd argue that there are other factions out there that can appeal to you without undermining the thematic underpinnings of an already established one.

**CEO Kasen**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Yeah and they've been what they are (male only) for 30 years.

That's a thing, though; I don't quite understand how this is necessarily critical to their identity - or more relevantly, their relative lack thereof. Space Marines can be anything else, so why is chromosomal masculinity mentioned in a 20-word chunk 18 years ago the one line they cling to when they can be Vikings, cyborgs, on fire, or anything else? I swear I'd get less flak if I actually went and made full-on anthro-furry LSM if I made them as Space Wolf successors than if I tried doing loyalist FSM.

I actually get the argument that the Imperium is supposed to be a dystopian hellhole and that sexism would be one of their numerous evils in the How Not To Do It book, it's just that it... isn't. At least not anywhere else. Of the many flaws the Imperium has, sexism (as well as Earth-standard melanin-based racism) doesn't seem to be among them because women can be pretty much anything except the one faction that happens to constitute a good 40-50% of the playerbase, and it's kind of hard to talk around, y'know?

**PappyNurgle**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What would be interesting is if women recruits adopted male pronouns upon becoming Astartes. And, you could expand on that further, with some Chapters doing the opposite (some Chapters using all-female pronouns - a hypothetical Shieldmaidens of Russ Chapter, for example), or others either having mixed gender, or no gender at all (going by gender-neutral pronouns, and only seeing themselves as "Astartes").

Basically, Space Marine gender is not exactly clearly understood.

That's actually a thought process I hadn't even considered. Mind if I snag this for some potential headcanon down the line after my DG are finished?

**CEO Kasen**

Andykp wrote:
This got toxic quick.

Did it? It's still looking chill compared to the last one. I could be deluded on that front.

**Sledgehammer**

CEO Kasen wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:
Yeah and they've been what they are (male only) for 30 years.

That's a thing, though; I don't quite understand how this is necessarily critical to their identity - or more relevantly, their relative lack thereof. Space Marines can be anything else, so why is chromosomal masculinity mentioned in a 20-word chunk 18 years ago the one line they cling to when they can be Vikings, cyborgs, on fire, or anything else? I swear I'd get less flak if I actually went and made full-on anthro-furry LSM if I made them as Space Wolf successors than if I tried doing loyalist FSM.

I actually get the argument that the Imperium is supposed to be a dystopian hellhole and that sexism would be one of their numerous evils in the How Not To Do It book, it's just that it... isn't. At least not anywhere else. Of the many flaws the Imperium has, sexism (as well as Earth-standard melanin-based racism) doesn't seem to be among them because women can be pretty much anything except the one faction that happens to constitute a good 40-50% of the playerbase, and it's kind of hard to talk around, y'know?

Because as I said earlier it has everything to do with space marines being monastic orders of space knights that go on crusades. By having the opposite sex within that brotherhood you fundamentally damage their identity and cheapen that of the sisters as well.

The actual lore serves to provide justification for the themes and factions. When you start to suggest lore that undermines the themes you need to take a step back and think.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Sledgehammer wrote:And i'd argue that there are other factions out there that can appeal to you without undermining the thematic underpinnings of an already established one.

Okay, I'm curious - if I want a faction of human-aligned supersoldiers with big, durable, power armour, with the freedom to give them anything from barbarian furs, to Greco-Roman stylings, to Knights Templar tabards, to modern spec-ops tacticool pouches, and have both men and women in that, which faction should I go for?

Again, "thematic underpinnings" - I'd say that Space Wolves being all werewolfy and mjod-intoxicated and frost-frost-wolf-wolf all the time would undermine those "warrior-monk" ideals already, without there being women involved.

PappyNurgle wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What would be interesting is if women recruits adopted male pronouns upon becoming Astartes. And, you could expand on that further, with some Chapters doing the opposite (some Chapters using all-female pronouns - a hypothetical Shieldmaidens of Russ Chapter, for example), or others either having mixed gender, or no gender at all (going by gender-neutral pronouns, and only seeing themselves as "Astartes").

Basically, Space Marine gender is not exactly clearly understood.

That's actually a thought process I hadn't even considered. Mind if I snag this for some potential headcanon down the line after my DG are finished?

Of course! I don't have a monopoly on ideas, if that inspires you to come up with a new and inventive Chapter, I'm all for it!

I understand that it was probably too much nuance to put in the main post, but if I had to pick how they were integrated, I think this would be one of my top picks. Some Chapters are all for integration, some have no integration (either male or female), some have mixed integration but force their aspirants to take on different pronouns (again, both masculine and feminine), and others just say goodbye to gender entirely - I could even imagine which canon Chapters might fit into those various categories!

Sledgehammer wrote:Because as I said earlier it has everything to do with space marines being monastic orders of space knights that go on crusades. By having the opposite sex within that brotherhood you fundamentally damage their identity and cheapen that of the sisters as well.

Why does having the opposite sex damage their knightly image, and not, I don't know, Santa Logan? Aircraft? Mad mjod drinking seshes in The Fang?

I'm not saying that some Chapters don't have that "identity", but it doesn't apply to every Chapter evenly.
I would think that the Space Marine identity is tied to their player freedoms and customisation.

You mention "cheapen the Sisters" - no, what's cheapening the Sisters is this idea that they're just a stand-in for women Space Marines. They're their own unique faction with their own identity. Not just the "if you want women Space Marines, play Sisters" faction - that's the real cheapening here.

**CEO Kasen**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Because as I said earlier it has everything to do with space marines being monastic orders of space knights that go on crusades. By having the opposite sex within that brotherhood you fundamentally damage their identity and cheapen that of the sisters as well.

I think I put my finger on at least one of the places we're just going to have to diverge on opinion: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're seeing 40K as an outcrop of something retro-historically inspired and those parallels to history being critical to the setting, and I think of 40K first as deliberately ludicrous and over-the-top science-fantasy which the addition of women superwarriors would do nothing to 'cheapen.' While certainly many forces can and do draw on a lot of historical inspiration, I believe the benefits from allowing FSM to diverge from those roots outweigh the downsides.

EDIT: Additionally, there's places they don't even diverge; see Viking Shieldmaidens. It's practically a historical divergence to expressly disallow them!

I also don't think that FSM cheapen SoB any more than female Guard soldiers 'cheapen' anyone, or the canonical allowance of bionic limbs in other armies or the existence of the Iron Hands 'cheapens' AdMech.

Actually, hang on, I've just hit on something; Could you say that FSM is to SoB as Iron Hands are to AdMech? It's a little reductive, but I think it gets the idea across that they aren't the same thing.

**Castozor**

They are not stand ins, but if you want power armored woman those are your go to. You can still style them as romans or vikings if you want, probably less lore breaking then just turning SM into woman because you specifically would want that.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Castozor wrote:
They are not stand ins, but if you want power armored woman those are your go to.

But I don't want power armoured women. I want power armoured super soldier women with the specific aesthetic stylings of Space Marines. I want Repulsors, and Aggressors, and Reivers. I want Intercessors and Tactical Marines, not Battle Sisters and Celestians.

Again - you're reducing Sisters down to "power armoured woman". They're so much more than that.