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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Doesn’t the new SM codex allow for you to create your own heroes, or is that crusade?
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Crusade.

"Requires Opponent's Permission" just means that people assume it's because they're overpowered, so never give permission.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





OKC, OK USA

 Gert wrote:
Jesus supposedly came back from the dead though. Wasn't aware the New Testament was a comic.


It's a fictionalized version of a character with super powers, sounds like a comic to me.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in no
Focused Fire Warrior






I love special characters. They give chapters like the Blood Angels lots of character. Even if you dont use them, knowing there are madmen like Mephiston and Astorath among their ranks makes them much more amusing to play.

Same with that interrogator chaplain (azrael?) among the Dark Angels who tortures his prisoners too hard and ends up killing them before they repent, making him a miserable failure to the rest of the chapter, having ever turned two fallen dark angels. Gives a lot of characterization and inspiration about -what- and -how- a chapter feels. Even if you just use generic hqs.

Let the galaxy burn. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Spoiler:
 Platuan4th wrote:
It's a fictionalized version of a character with super powers, sounds like a comic to me.

 Da Boss wrote:
Did Jesus come back from the dead after an epic battle against Judas, where he displayed his themed superpowers and narrowly lost the fight?

I'd probably still have left the catholic church if that was the case for all the other excellent reasons, but I'd remember more of the bible I'm pretty sure.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Uhhhhhhh. . .

The point I was making with that little joke is that it's not the fault of comics or TV shows that 40k saw a shift of focus onto Named Characters (although generally, I don't find this to be 100% accurate). Settings are cool and all but stories are better, and while you can absolutely still make your own stories and are actively encouraged to do so, GW adding NC's gives the overarching story of 40k some anchors with which people can craft a narrative.
You can go back to some of the oldest stories on Earth and find superhuman people with amazing abilities accomplishing heroic tasks and impossible feats.
Take the Trojan War. What's more appealing? A story of Greek expansion into Asia Minor where they sack a city called Troy, OR, a story where the Trojan prince steals away the most beautiful woman in the world and starts a war that drags in the greatest legends of Ancient Greece?
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Gert wrote:
Jesus supposedly came back from the dead though. Wasn't aware the New Testament was a comic.


It is. It's called Godyssey and he kicks the gak out of Zeus. Checkmate.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Gert: Listen, I can totally accept that you can prefer a story to a setting. But they're different things, and one isn't automatically better than another. When I'm reading a novel or watching a film, I want a story with characters that I care about.
But when I'm playing a creative game like a fantasy wargame or a roleplaying game, I want space to create my own stuff, I want inspiration for that. I think that a setting focus rather than a story focus works better for that. I see 40K as a space to be a creator rather than a consumer.

But, and I don't mean this in some disparaging hipster way, I can see that that's the minority view so I understand why GW have chosen to go in the direction they have. It's just not really for me.

   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






But what part of 40k doesn't let you craft your own narrative? GW literally introduced a whole system for you to do this with Crusade and the Galaxy is still just as big as it was. The only thing 40k doesn't have that AoS does is Anvil of Apotheosis for super custom character creation.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
 Platuan4th wrote:
It's a fictionalized version of a character with super powers, sounds like a comic to me.

 Da Boss wrote:
Did Jesus come back from the dead after an epic battle against Judas, where he displayed his themed superpowers and narrowly lost the fight?

I'd probably still have left the catholic church if that was the case for all the other excellent reasons, but I'd remember more of the bible I'm pretty sure.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Uhhhhhhh. . .

The point I was making with that little joke is that it's not the fault of comics or TV shows that 40k saw a shift of focus onto Named Characters (although generally, I don't find this to be 100% accurate). Settings are cool and all but stories are better, and while you can absolutely still make your own stories and are actively encouraged to do so, GW adding NC's gives the overarching story of 40k some anchors with which people can craft a narrative.
You can go back to some of the oldest stories on Earth and find superhuman people with amazing abilities accomplishing heroic tasks and impossible feats.
Take the Trojan War. What's more appealing? A story of Greek expansion into Asia Minor where they sack a city called Troy, OR, a story where the Trojan prince steals away the most beautiful woman in the world and starts a war that drags in the greatest legends of Ancient Greece?


“Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.”

Many stories (especially religious ones) use characters in them to express ideas in a way that's easily palatable and memorable to an audience/populace. So in a sense, of course characters pop up. That's all well and good.

The problem with GW is that we see the same friggin characters all the friggin time . . . in a universe with millions (trillions) of potential stories to be told. Plus, when they're using named characters, they can't ever put these characters in any real risk, so a lot of the tension is then lifted from a story, and storytelling can suffer for it. In addition there's a big risk of the focus of the story becoming about the character themselves, rather then the idea that the story might otherwise express. Writing a story about an anonymous Imperial citizen encountering Necrons for the first time - the story, while using characters, is really about making the Necrons feel like a major threat. If the story is written from the UM perspective with Captain Sicarius at the helm. . . well that runs a hefty risk of being about how cool Sicarius is instead, and about how indomitable the UM are.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

 Gert wrote:
But what part of 40k doesn't let you craft your own narrative? GW literally introduced a whole system for you to do this with Crusade and the Galaxy is still just as big as it was. The only thing 40k doesn't have that AoS does is Anvil of Apotheosis for super custom character creation.


It's a feeling that the setting has shrunk, that freedom is constrained by an overdeveloped and over detailed canon, and that these big characters are everywhere. It doesn't stop me from doing my own thing, but it means I'm not engaged with GW material any more in the same way. No worries, no big deal. I've been into GW stuff for over 20 years, it'd be weird if I was still into it in the same way.

If you read my posts and see intense emotion of any sort about this stuff, it's not actually there. I'm pretty chill about all of this and happily working away on my own stuff. But if the question is posed as to what I think, I'm also happy enough to answer it.

   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Hmm, I'm with Gert on that one. It's a huge galaxy that hasn't become smaller (well, the Rift destroyed a lot of stuff, but still...). I agree that the way GW tells the story isn't that great (why is Typhus wherever the DG appears?), but I can still tell a story on planet dropterius Maxima about my custom vectorium under Lord Anthraxas from the 4th Plague company. It's just that GW doesn't tell those generic stories anymore. I got the campaign book for the fight about medusa (3rd Edition?), while it's kind of nice to read it's basically exactly like the intro of Dow Soulstorm .
   
Made in us
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New Hampshire

I feel the problem with named characters is that they are always better then a generic (except maybe in the points cost). If they had give them identical stats to generics but gave each a unique interaction with their own Chapter tactics that replaces "Rites of Battle" I feel it might help balance the need to always take a named character.

"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in de
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva




Nickin' 'ur stuff

 Gert wrote:
But what part of 40k doesn't let you craft your own narrative? GW literally introduced a whole system for you to do this with Crusade and the Galaxy is still just as big as it was. The only thing 40k doesn't have that AoS does is Anvil of Apotheosis for super custom character creation.


What if I want to play Ynnari, but don't want to use one of the existing, named characters? Same with creations of bile.

Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Salted Diamond wrote:
I feel the problem with named characters is that they are always better then a generic (except maybe in the points cost). If they had give them identical stats to generics but gave each a unique interaction with their own Chapter tactics that replaces "Rites of Battle" I feel it might help balance the need to always take a named character.

That's not quite accurate though since many NC's are just "meh" or provide minimal benefits. Who's taking Sergeant Chronus or Jarran Kell in their lists?
If we go into HH there's boatloads of NC's and a solid 60% are just a bit worse than a basic HQ choice, with many being superceded by Praetors.

Waaaghbert wrote:

What if I want to play Ynnari, but don't want to use one of the existing, named characters? Same with creations of bile.

They are exceptions to the rule.
Ynnari are in a very weird place right now TBF and it's clear nobody at GW knows what to do with the faction.
CoB are built around Bile. Without him the faction doesn't exist.
I would say having 2 subfactions out of what, like 50, being required to take NC is not the "gotcha" you think it is.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






New Hampshire

 Gert wrote:
 Salted Diamond wrote:
I feel the problem with named characters is that they are always better then a generic (except maybe in the points cost). If they had give them identical stats to generics but gave each a unique interaction with their own Chapter tactics that replaces "Rites of Battle" I feel it might help balance the need to always take a named character.

That's not quite accurate though since many NC's are just "meh" or provide minimal benefits. Who's taking Sergeant Chronus or Jarran Kell in their lists?
If we go into HH there's boatloads of NC's and a solid 60% are just a bit worse than a basic HQ choice, with many being superceded by Praetors.
But they are better then the generic versions. Chronus in a tank is better then a tank without him it's more just vehicles in general are not great right now, and Kell has no generic version to compare to. If vehicles become useful again, I can see UM players finding a place Chronus

I should probably clarify my opinion that when you have an option between a named and a generic, the named is always a better choice (point cost not included). There is nothing to encourage players to not take the NC

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 15:21:49


"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Relics, faction choice, upgrade options.
There are definitely reasons to not include NC's.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Indeed. As long as I know 40K there's rather been the complaint that most named characters in that game are just generic chars with bad loadout
I'd say most chars nowadays also do something special, no?
Can't list all of them but from my factions (DG,Nurgle Daemons, Orks) Rotigus and the new guy on white squig are probably the boring ones as they're just generic chars but a little bit better, while others have some interesting Aura that encourage you to build specific lists.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Special characters exist because the game designers survive off of the anguish of war gamers. It's the only logical explanation.

It's certainly not because of the conflicting goals of:
* Believe it or not, there are people who ask for unique, special versions of the generic upgrade troops.
* It's easier (and even possible) to balance a specific combination of abilities (like you'd see packaged as a special character), compared to trying to balance a point based abilities and equipment list. (Equipment lists just generate all of the overpowered/underpriced/combo hunting you see in list creation, on the model level.)

That's part of the reason why the old advice was "Go ahead and make your own dude with this dude's stats and abilities, if you want."

Conclusion: Wargamers are responsible for everything wrong with wargaming.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Are the objections the names characters in the game or in the fluff or both? Without characters with names it’s hard for them to make more story and sell said story. Novels for examples.

A lot of people don’t feel up to doing kitbash and therefore the idea of turning a space marine champion into one of the names space marine characters wouldn’t be fun.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Crusade characters definitely have the capacity to become stronger than many if not most named characters.

The recent Black Templars released raised the bar even higher, because some of the unique Crusade relics and upgrades are actually on the upgrade sprues, so it isn't just rules- it actually affects the model too.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






mrFickle wrote:
Are the objections the names characters in the game or in the fluff or both? Without characters with names it’s hard for them to make more story and sell said story. Novels for examples.

A lot of people don’t feel up to doing kitbash and therefore the idea of turning a space marine champion into one of the names space marine characters wouldn’t be fun.
For me the inclusion of named characters in the game is fine, (though I tend to make my own) but I'd much prefer that less time be spent on them in the fluff of the overall universe outside of their respective codexes.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







mrFickle wrote:
Are the objections the names characters in the game or in the fluff or both? Without characters with names it’s hard for them to make more story and sell said story. Novels for examples.


Your comment seems to be dismissing the huge amount of background stories that were just about random named marines or whatever running around doing stuff, never to get their own model or whatever. Or things like Gaunt who recently got a model release to commemorate the book series. Would you believe that a large portion of 40k's development history is the developers making up their own personal characters or armies, and eventually getting an army written around them, and then expecting the players to do the same?

I swear that ends up being a no-win scenario for the game company. You can get a demonstration of how it goes bad for a company in Infinity, where the cycle ends up being:
Step One: Basic model/unit gets released.
Step Two: A story is written about a specific trooper of that unit, and that specific named trooper gets a model and special rules.
Repeat Step One and Step Two for everyone's factions, and for a few different units in each faction (or to give someone in the community a model in their likeness as a really nice gesture of appreciation), and the army lists end up bloated and unwieldy.

Over at a completely different company with a completely different game, for some time Wyrd Games has been getting into a pattern of:
* Release Character A with a specific story, and artwork.
* Release Character A with different or revised artwork.
* Write and design a second character, possibly with radically different artwork, but that still manages to fit Character A's rules, and release Character B as an "alternate model" for Character A.
(Of course, if GW did it, you'd get people foaming over FOMO because a lot of the alternates end up being seasonal or otherwise limited releases. But it's not hard to find someone willing to complain about release schedules...)

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I realise there’s loads of stories about characters that we will never hear from again or see in the game but what I mean is that there is a story that we are all exposed to as game players that has a few characters that are required in order to move the story along or create a compelling setting.

I started playing in second and I loved the named characters for bringing specific events in the 40K universe alive but I think I also remember that they had several tiers of hero’s available in the codex.
   
 
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