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 privateer4hire wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
100% yes. If this was any other company their gakky rules would be laughed at. GW can get away with publishing garbage rules and people ignore it because "ooh shiny miniatures".

Some (a lot?), of us also have ignored substandard rules because we’d prefer to at least get some games in and often it’s play GW or play nothing.

That is indeed part of it, but at the same token we've been playing dead editions of GW games at our local shop and have actually garnered interest from younger store patrons. Pinning the Stockholm Syndrome squarely on the Cult of Current only goes so far.

 privateer4hire wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
100% yes. If this was any other company their gakky rules would be laughed at. GW can get away with publishing garbage rules and people ignore it because "ooh shiny miniatures".

Some (a lot?), of us also have ignored substandard rules because we’d prefer to at least get some games in and often it’s play GW or play nothing.

I think that’s the only reason 40k still gets players here, most players have army’s and a nostalgia for the setting.
And getting into new things is hard to find community.
But it’s quiet down a lot, seeing so few games again after the resurface for 9th.

The other is how many players turned up with there new 40k army’s for years after being told online they could get a game anywhere.
And no one wants to play 40k, fanboy power keep 40k alive and push other games down all that time.
Even things like age of sigmar, it’s all the 40k players who tear it down I find.

 privateer4hire wrote:
Some (a lot?), of us also have ignored substandard rules because we’d prefer to at least get some games in and often it’s play GW or play nothing.

I do think, though, that this is more often than not a case of everybody just assuming that nobody else will be interested in another game if they're already playing one. If you have another game you really want to play, maybe it just needs someone to take up the banner and encourage others to give it a go...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Any critique of GW based on price runs into the very simple fact that people have been bemoaning GW's price increases for literal decades.

So, what, we call it a wash and never bring it up?

You can bring it up.

It just invalidates your opinion as silly repeating one. Same arqument has been said for decades yet gw is still here doing more profit than ever.

So if you want some credibility for "gw is going to go bust" claim better avoid model cost as arqument.

Of course if you want to trash your own credibility feel free to do so.

 insaniak wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:
Some (a lot?), of us also have ignored substandard rules because we’d prefer to at least get some games in and often it’s play GW or play nothing.

I do think, though, that this is more often than not a case of everybody just assuming that nobody else will be interested in another game if they're already playing one. If you have another game you really want to play, maybe it just needs someone to take up the banner and encourage others to give it a go...

I’ve done the game evangelist bit in half a dozen places over the past twenty something years. It’s a lot of work for not much return.

tneva82 wrote:
So if you want some credibility for "gw is going to go bust" claim better avoid model cost as arqument.

I... didn't say that either.

Any'a y'all actually gonna reply to something I said, rather than what you wished I said?

Gee suhs...

 Just Tony wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
100% yes. If this was any other company their gakky rules would be laughed at. GW can get away with publishing garbage rules and people ignore it because "ooh shiny miniatures".

Some (a lot?), of us also have ignored substandard rules because we’d prefer to at least get some games in and often it’s play GW or play nothing.

That is indeed part of it, but at the same token we've been playing dead editions of GW games at our local shop and have actually garnered interest from younger store patrons. Pinning the Stockholm Syndrome squarely on the Cult of Current only goes so far.

Gaming, like politics, is local. I've lucked into a group that will play off brand stuff so I am thankful.
Without them it would be GW or no gaming. Good for you that you've gotten interest in the non-current edition.

I didn't mention current in my original response to this thread but I think people will agree that it helps to play the new edition.
And also, you're playing a GW game even if it's older. It's still the same IP not Gates of Antares or Maelstrom's Edge or whatever not-GW world.
Nobody likely has to homebrew rules for their army since it's probably reflected in the army lists/codex for that edition.
And even if they do, the fact that it's got GW or Citadel stamped somewhere usually doesn't hurt.

 insaniak wrote:

I'm going with False.

Spoiler:

Aside from the distasteful comparison to spousal abuse (which, frankly, shows an incredible lack of perspective, and/or empathy for actual victims of abuse) what that comment is is projection. It's someone saying 'I no longer like what the game has become, therefore it's clearly not what people want and GW are doing it wrong.'

It makes sense. After you've dedicated a large amount of time, money and effort into something, it can be hard to accept that it's changed into something that just isn't actually aimed at you any more. So people hang around complaining that it's not like it was back in their day, and waiting for it to get back on track... because, surely, if we all keep making enough noise about it, they'll realise that they've made a mistake and go back to giving us what we want, right?

Right...?

Except they have no reason to do that, because there are plenty of customers out there who are perfectly happy with their current direction, as evidenced by their sales figures. So those complaining would be better off not waiting, and just make the change they want to see themselves.

It took me an embarrassingly long time myself to realise that if I wasn't enjoying the current direction of 40K, there was nothing actually forcing me to keep up with it. Even ignoring the overabundance of other games out there these days, if there was a version of the game that you enjoyed more than the current one, those rulebooks still exist. (In my case, they're still sitting right there on the shelf). So rather than waiting for 40K to turn back into 2nd edition or 5th edition, I decided to just go back to playing 2nd edition. Rather than buying Primaris marines, I chose to stick with my existing armies, or buy anything else I needed 2nd hand. I get the version of the game I prefer, and those who like the current stuff can carry on enjoying themselves without my negativity added to the mix.

Spoiler:

In summary - never assume that your personal opinion is the majority, particularly when all evidence points to the contrary. And it's a hobby. Hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable. If you're not enjoying it, you're doing something wrong, and would be better off changing that rather than insisting that the company making the wildly successful product you personally don't like should change what they're doing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoldenHorde wrote:
We know why GW attempted finecast. Increase margins $$$

Yes, and no. They made the change to 'Fine'cast because tin prices were wildly volatile and IIRC had increased exponentially in a very short time, making large scale metal model production much more risky. And the common scuttlebutt at the time (which admittedly may not be true, just internet chatter) was that 'Fine'cast was rushed out because it leaked early and GW wanted to stay on top of the wave, despite it not actually being ready for release - they had the choice (allegedly) of pushing out a product and hoping for the best, or waiting to test it more completely and losing some of the momentum from the initial reveal. The skyrocketing tin prices forced their hand, and once they had made the change it would have likely been too expensive to change back.

For all its faults, 'Fine'cast as a concept, for what it was intended to do, was good. The end result was, IMO, a mistake brought on by hubris (Kirby's belief that GW's customers would buy whatever they chose to release) and a too-short development time. That doesn't invalidate every other bit of progress that GW have made. Every company makes mistakes, and they're often mistakes that in hindsight to the armchair critic seem obvious. See: New Coke.

You vote False, but I would consider this to be succeeding in spite of itself because of the value of things done a long time ago…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Regardless, poll results as of now are currently pretty strongly in the True column…

59% out of 82 poll responses isn't a strong result. At best it's a very slim majority. Strong would be 70-80% out of 100-200 responses.

Margins have slimmed, now 55 to 45% True. A significant margin, I would argue, for its falling square in the middle.

 jeff white wrote:

You vote False, but I would consider this to be succeeding in spite of itself because of the value of things done a long time ago…

Based on what?

There are some of us who persist/ed with the game longer than we should have because of the nostalgia or sunk cost or whatever other attachment, certainly... but that only means that GW are riding those past successes if that actually applies to a significant portion of their (actual, paying) customer base. And we don't have sufficient data to make that judgement.

It certainly doesn't seem to have hurt their bottom line when I stopped buying their stuff in mid 6th edition. Nor when people left in a huff after 7th edition came along and turned out to be 6th edition amped up to 11, or when 8th changed the game more drastically. Either there's an ever-shrinking pool of vets handing over exponentially increasing large wads of cash, or they're getting enough new blood to keep those profits going upwards.

 insaniak wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

You vote False, but I would consider this to be succeeding in spite of itself because of the value of things done a long time ago…

Based on what?

There are some of us who persist/ed with the game longer than we should have because of the nostalgia or sunk cost or whatever other attachment, certainly... but that only means that GW are riding those past successes if that actually applies to a significant portion of their (actual, paying) customer base. And we don't have sufficient data to make that judgement.

It certainly doesn't seem to have hurt their bottom line when I stopped buying their stuff in mid 6th edition. Nor when people left in a huff after 7th edition came along and turned out to be 6th edition amped up to 11, or when 8th changed the game more drastically. Either there's an ever-shrinking pool of vets handing over exponentially increasing large wads of cash, or they're getting enough new blood to keep those profits going upwards.

It might have been truer in the late-kirby era, where there were indications that fewer and fewer people were spending more and more for less and less, but whether that was a shrinking core of vets or 'fewer' new starts is anyone's guess. For the most part, I doubt the majority of people buying today are the same people buying twenty, or more do years ago. I'm a very rare exception in that case. Hell, I've got models older than plenty of the current generation of players. :p


Everything since calth has been a commercial success pretty much, and they hit on the magic formula of lots of new starts, and re-engage the vets. It's something they didn't do in kirby's last few years, but he was basically just eyeing out on maxing his own personal retirement.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Unplayable is just hyperbolic shorthand for "they write bad rules". And they do. They write terrible rules.

They write convoluted, poorly balanced rules. They're PERFECT rules for the kind of player that still sticks by 40k as a "competitive" game. The player that sees buying models as buying power and wants to win the game in the planning phase. The piles and piles of stratagems and auras are perfect for that.
The other kind of player is the same as always- fluffy person who plays with friends and literally doesn't care as long as they get to move models around and go pew pew.
Lastly the third kind of player is the one that no longer enjoys the game because it has moved on conceptually from being a primarily tabletop experience, and is only in it for the nostalgia or sunk cost. That player should probably move on for his sanity's sake.


As for financial results, that trashy Black Templar army box is sold out at all the local online stores, so clearly the pain point hasn't been reached yet.

I'd say GW's main advantage is incumbency which yes, is a result of things they did in the past, but isn't due to "kickass lore".

Arguably WHFB and 40k 3rd-7th ed were killed off because in the mid 2010s that incumbency seemed to be on the wane (dramatically in Fantasy's case) as compared with Warmahordes and then especially X-Wing. (And to a degree others - but that cluster on the fringe has arguably always been there). Speaking from experience, I'd say around 2016ish it was getting as easy to get a game of X-Wing as 40k.

But flash forward, and X-Wing seems essentially dead as a commercial exercise, while 40k is still going strong.

If everyone started playing Malifaux, Bolt Action or the ASOIAF miniatures game etc across all the FLGS in the world, and not 40k, GW would be in real trouble. But they don't. And it seems unlikely at this point they are going to start.

There's also the view that people could keep on playing 40k, but stop buying models from GW, just contact their friendly local 3d printer. But I feel taking that step requires being sufficiently far down the rabbit hole. If you have some friends playing 40k, the logical step is to buy a starter from GW. It isn't to get hold of some 3rd party models off the internet. Because you've never heard of said 3rd party.

 insaniak wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

You vote False, but I would consider this to be succeeding in spite of itself because of the value of things done a long time ago…

Based on what?

Spoiler:

There are some of us who persist/ed with the game longer than we should have because of the nostalgia or sunk cost or whatever other attachment, certainly... but that only means that GW are riding those past successes if that actually applies to a significant portion of their (actual, paying) customer base. And we don't have sufficient data to make that judgement.

It certainly doesn't seem to have hurt their bottom line when I stopped buying their stuff in mid 6th edition. Nor when people left in a huff after 7th edition came along and turned out to be 6th edition amped up to 11, or when 8th changed the game more drastically. Either there's an ever-shrinking pool of vets handing over exponentially increasing large wads of cash, or they're getting enough new blood to keep those profits going upwards.

Based on the fact that you (we, really) are still buying their miniatures today because of what some people made for the company 30 years ago.

This is not intended to be a controverial assessment - I mean, I am not being accusatory, I am only saying that - in my mind - this sort of activity, namely giving new money now to engage with old rules systems seems to satisfy the conditions of the quote from the original post... and so GW is succeeding in spite of current iterations of the game system, recent narrative divergences, and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

Spoiler:

I'd say GW's main advantage is incumbency which yes, is a result of things they did in the past, but isn't due to "kickass lore".

Arguably WHFB and 40k 3rd-7th ed were killed off because in the mid 2010s that incumbency seemed to be on the wane (dramatically in Fantasy's case) as compared with Warmahordes and then especially X-Wing. (And to a degree others - but that cluster on the fringe has arguably always been there).

Speaking from experience, I'd say around 2016ish it was getting as easy to get a game of X-Wing as 40k.

But flash forward, and X-Wing seems essentially dead as a commercial exercise, while 40k is still going strong.

Spoiler:

If everyone started playing Malifaux, Bolt Action or the ASOIAF miniatures game etc across all the FLGS in the world, and not 40k, GW would be in real trouble. But they don't. And it seems unlikely at this point they are going to start.

There's also the view that people could keep on playing 40k, but stop buying models from GW, just contact their friendly local 3d printer. But I feel taking that step requires being sufficiently far down the rabbit hole. If you have some friends playing 40k, the logical step is to buy a starter from GW. It isn't to get hold of some 3rd party models off the internet. Because you've never heard of said 3rd party.

I wonder how much of the loss of interest in the Star Wars universe had to do with Disney fracking the frack out of the Star Wars "lore" with their newer Rey-based movies, perhaps in much the same way that GW has split its fanbase with the introduction of (the heretic) Cawl and (his man-servant of heresy) Bob Girlyman?

 jeff white wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

I'm going with False.

Spoiler:

Aside from the distasteful comparison to spousal abuse (which, frankly, shows an incredible lack of perspective, and/or empathy for actual victims of abuse) what that comment is is projection. It's someone saying 'I no longer like what the game has become, therefore it's clearly not what people want and GW are doing it wrong.'

It makes sense. After you've dedicated a large amount of time, money and effort into something, it can be hard to accept that it's changed into something that just isn't actually aimed at you any more. So people hang around complaining that it's not like it was back in their day, and waiting for it to get back on track... because, surely, if we all keep making enough noise about it, they'll realise that they've made a mistake and go back to giving us what we want, right?

Right...?

Except they have no reason to do that, because there are plenty of customers out there who are perfectly happy with their current direction, as evidenced by their sales figures. So those complaining would be better off not waiting, and just make the change they want to see themselves.

It took me an embarrassingly long time myself to realise that if I wasn't enjoying the current direction of 40K, there was nothing actually forcing me to keep up with it. Even ignoring the overabundance of other games out there these days, if there was a version of the game that you enjoyed more than the current one, those rulebooks still exist. (In my case, they're still sitting right there on the shelf). So rather than waiting for 40K to turn back into 2nd edition or 5th edition, I decided to just go back to playing 2nd edition. Rather than buying Primaris marines, I chose to stick with my existing armies, or buy anything else I needed 2nd hand. I get the version of the game I prefer, and those who like the current stuff can carry on enjoying themselves without my negativity added to the mix.

Spoiler:

In summary - never assume that your personal opinion is the majority, particularly when all evidence points to the contrary. And it's a hobby. Hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable. If you're not enjoying it, you're doing something wrong, and would be better off changing that rather than insisting that the company making the wildly successful product you personally don't like should change what they're doing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoldenHorde wrote:
We know why GW attempted finecast. Increase margins $$$

Yes, and no. They made the change to 'Fine'cast because tin prices were wildly volatile and IIRC had increased exponentially in a very short time, making large scale metal model production much more risky. And the common scuttlebutt at the time (which admittedly may not be true, just internet chatter) was that 'Fine'cast was rushed out because it leaked early and GW wanted to stay on top of the wave, despite it not actually being ready for release - they had the choice (allegedly) of pushing out a product and hoping for the best, or waiting to test it more completely and losing some of the momentum from the initial reveal. The skyrocketing tin prices forced their hand, and once they had made the change it would have likely been too expensive to change back.

For all its faults, 'Fine'cast as a concept, for what it was intended to do, was good. The end result was, IMO, a mistake brought on by hubris (Kirby's belief that GW's customers would buy whatever they chose to release) and a too-short development time. That doesn't invalidate every other bit of progress that GW have made. Every company makes mistakes, and they're often mistakes that in hindsight to the armchair critic seem obvious. See: New Coke.

You vote False, but I would consider this to be succeeding in spite of itself because of the value of things done a long time ago…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Regardless, poll results as of now are currently pretty strongly in the True column…

59% out of 82 poll responses isn't a strong result. At best it's a very slim majority. Strong would be 70-80% out of 100-200 responses.

Margins have slimmed, now 55 to 45% True. A significant margin, I would argue, for its falling square in the middle.

a ten percent margin isn't all that signfcigent, maybe you should take a statistics course... first off it's not a huuge differance statisticly, second of all any statician would look at these forums and say that the selection bias in a dakkadakka poll is pretty major. dude there's no fething science to a dakka dakka poll, it's just the opinions of a buncha old grognards who use an internet forum

GW as an abusive spouse that insults you every day (price hikes), destroys your DVD collection (removal of WHFB) and to which you gladly crawl back to in order to kiss her feet (reintroduction of Old World) once again?

It always needs TWO persons involved for such a dynamic so GW is only to blame for 50%. Every consumer with a spine left for alternatives (in my case 9th Age) a long while ago.

About 40K:
GW seems to me like a single mother with multiple kids who I meet on a date. She insists that I pay for her brats (new editions with new codices) like a good simp would do in order to be able to spend quality time with her. But I just say "Nope" and continue to mind my own business (Oldhammer) which keeps both my sanity and wallet intact.

 Strg Alt wrote:
GW as an abusive spouse that insults you every day (price hikes), destroys your DVD collection (removal of WHFB) and to which you gladly crawl back to in order to kiss her feet (reintroduction of Old World) once again?

It always needs TWO persons involved for such a dynamic so GW is only to blame for 50%. Every consumer with a spine left for alternatives (in my case 9th Age) a long while ago.

About 40K:
GW seems to me like a single mother with multiple kids who I meet on a date. She insists that I pay for her brats (new editions with new codices) like a good simp would do in order to be able to spend quality time with her. But I just say "Nope" and continue to mind my own business (Oldhammer) which keeps both my sanity and wallet intact.

yet you still take every oppertunity to post on the 40k forums. continuing the "Beaten spouse" analogy, thats like the spouse who can't quit talking about their ex-spouse.

BrianDavion wrote:
...continuing the "Beaten spouse" analogy,...

Can we just, you know... not?

 Strg Alt wrote:
GW as an abusive spouse that insults you every day (price hikes), destroys your DVD collection (removal of WHFB) and to which you gladly crawl back to in order to kiss her feet (reintroduction of Old World) once again?

It always needs TWO persons involved for such a dynamic so GW is only to blame for 50%. Every consumer with a spine left for alternatives (in my case 9th Age) a long while ago.

Insulting? Not really - if I don't like it I don't buy it. I've been called worse things by fellow gamers to be fair. I mean - spineless? Really? Because I happen to like primaris and the reimaginings of the specialist games? That's not 'spineless'.

Like what you like. Play 9th Age if it makes you happy. Wfb never did anything for me I'm.afraid
so its never a game I'm gonna miss. Honestly, I'm supportive though - in my mind, making the game 'your own' like that is one of the most productive ways of keeping your hobby healthy. Liking the other stuff isn't bad though - just remember that.

 jeff white wrote:
I wonder how much of the loss of interest in the Star Wars universe had to do with Disney fracking the frack out of the Star Wars "lore" with their newer Rey-based movies, perhaps in much the same way that GW has split its fanbase with the introduction of (the heretic) Cawl and (his man-servant of heresy) Bob Girlyman?

I'm not really sure the evidence stacks up.

If Disney failed, its that they comprehensively failed to expand Star Wars lore. I don't care about prequel ships. I'm not sure there's anything interesting in the sequels either.
So I'm stuck with X-Wings, Tie Fighters, the Millennium Falcon etc. Which unsurprisingly gets old if you play it enough. Which basically means the game has a shelf life. It can survive with new players coming in - but if the old players are bored and checking out, that usually dries up.

So yes, to upset you, part of GW's success is Primaris. It keeps the setting alive - and someone somewhere is buying those models.

Guys, can we please stop with the abusive spouse analogy? No matter how hard you try, it will never make sense, just like your poor examples.

Its has certainly lead to very bad taste territory.

Yeah, I think Primaris were a brilliant bit of business. Space Marines have long been the cash cow for GW, but the range was fully plastic and already full of super niche new units like Centurions and Stalkers. Sure, they could update a few of the older kits like Scouts and Terminators, but they went big with a completely new line of dudes. It was also coupled with the biggest actual move forward with the lore in decades, and it's worked out really well for GW.

 jeff white wrote:
Margins have slimmed, now 55 to 45% True. A significant margin, I would argue, for its falling square in the middle.

As others have said, 10% is not a significant margin. You have a minority opinion at best.

 jeff white wrote:
I wonder how much of the loss of interest in the Star Wars universe had to do with Disney fracking the frack out of the Star Wars "lore" with their newer Rey-based movies, perhaps in much the same way that GW has split its fanbase with the introduction of (the heretic) Cawl and (his man-servant of heresy) Bob Girlyman?

Very little considering that even before Mando, Star Wars was and is still one of the most popular franchises in the world. The sequels were still objectively popular, successful movies and overall I would say the general reception was good and the justified anger was due to the movies not really sticking to a plan rather than anything else (note I say justified because being mad that a woman or POC was made an important character is not justified).
I can't comment on X-Wing specifically but am I correct in understanding that the models come pre-painted? If so I think that could be a factor in people not taking it up as a hobby. People love their custom paint schemes after all.

 Gert wrote:
I can't comment on X-Wing specifically but am I correct in understanding that the models come pre-painted? If so I think that could be a factor in people not taking it up as a hobby. People love their custom paint schemes after all.

Yes, X-Wing models are pre-painted.
But, people also like iconic and canon schemes. Po's X-Wing was released as a model, as were lots of other individual paintjobs. People can re-paint their models, but that doesn't happen a lot.

Painting models and the 'grey-horde' are a big issue for some people. If they get annoyed that they are unable to paint well enough for their own tastes, or are the type to not want to see unpainted models on the other side of the table, this is for them.

There is a store in my city that still has an X-Wing games evening. It isn't dead as a game around here, but not far off.
Though, from the point of view of a FLGS (without gaming tables) I buy from, there is quite a lot of demand from home-gamers.


As for GW, they are moving the 40k story along a little bit, but seem to have lost any of the original meaning or tone of the background. After decades of retcons and re-writes, it doesn't feel like RT set out.
Maybe I'm just too old to 'get it' any more, but I'll still play 40k, Kill Team, AI, Necromunda, BSF, AoS, Underworlds, and Blood Bowl.

 Gert wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Margins have slimmed, now 55 to 45% True. A significant margin, I would argue, for its falling square in the middle.

As others have said, 10% is not a significant margin. You have a minority opinion at best.

Spoiler:

 jeff white wrote:
I wonder how much of the loss of interest in the Star Wars universe had to do with Disney fracking the frack out of the Star Wars "lore" with their newer Rey-based movies, perhaps in much the same way that GW has split its fanbase with the introduction of (the heretic) Cawl and (his man-servant of heresy) Bob Girlyman?

Very little considering that even before Mando, Star Wars was and is still one of the most popular franchises in the world. The sequels were still objectively popular, successful movies and overall I would say the general reception was good and the justified anger was due to the movies not really sticking to a plan rather than anything else (note I say justified because being mad that a woman or POC was made an important character is not justified).
I can't comment on X-Wing specifically but am I correct in understanding that the models come pre-painted? If so I think that could be a factor in people not taking it up as a hobby. People love their custom paint schemes after all.

Dude, do you even read what is written, or do you just rip off what seems right given some prejudice so you cannot help yourself attacking?

I wrote that the results are significant for the fact that they show a split right down the middle. How can this POSSIBLY be a minority opinion, when it is an objective fracking fact?

Jeebus, ... just wow.

About the "abusive spouse" analogy, it was part of the originally quoted text from the Youtube comments. Asking people to stop saying things that make you feel bad is no way to come to terms with those feelings... some might say that sticking heads in sand is evidence of denial, but whatever. The fact is that the words and the image are out there and in common use. Maybe different people have different experiences. Should we forbid that these people express their experiences in the terms that they feel most effective? I say no, but I am not a fan of the cancel culture that is all the rage these days.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

a_typical_hero wrote:
Guys, can we please stop with the abusive spouse analogy? No matter how hard you try, it will never make sense, just like your poor examples.

Regarding that abusive spouse stuff, if it doesn't fit your experience, say so. Others seem to feel that it fits theirs... Is your intention to deny them the validity of their experiences, or simply to deny them their expression of these experiences?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
I wonder how much of the loss of interest in the Star Wars universe had to do with Disney fracking the frack out of the Star Wars "lore" with their newer Rey-based movies, perhaps in much the same way that GW has split its fanbase with the introduction of (the heretic) Cawl and (his man-servant of heresy) Bob Girlyman?

I'm not really sure the evidence stacks up.

If Disney failed, its that they comprehensively failed to expand Star Wars lore. I don't care about prequel ships. I'm not sure there's anything interesting in the sequels either.
So I'm stuck with X-Wings, Tie Fighters, the Millennium Falcon etc. Which unsurprisingly gets old if you play it enough. Which basically means the game has a shelf life. It can survive with new players coming in - but if the old players are bored and checking out, that usually dries up.

So yes, to upset you, part of GW's success is Primaris. It keeps the setting alive - and someone somewhere is buying those models.

Thanks for this. Very informative for me, as I am not a Star Wars player...

That said, what makes you think that I am "upset" by the fact that some people are buying restartes? More heretics for me to cleanse with fire. Some of the models are even good... the jump dudes with the assault cannons are ridiculous, as well as most of the other tricksy numarines spawned by that heretic Cawl, but they all burn, too. What is to be upset about?

I get the feeling that some people bring hostility to these discussions, and then project this hostility on others who they presume to hold certain contrary positions, thereby denying the nuance of different positions and effectively putting discussants into these little boxes of prejudice, thereby burdening those others - in this case, me - with the task of getting out of these boxes in order to communicate with those prejudicial others clearly, at all. Uhff...

So, to this point I try. But, after things get hopeless, I suppose that this is what the ignore button is for...

Warmachine & Hordes = Failure!
Why? Because Privateer Press catered almost exclusively to the competitive players. Doing this narrowed the customer base, fostered an incredibly toxic community (the worst I've ever encountered) and created a barrier to entry which resulted in no new players entering the game. Rather then correct course, Privateer Press planted their feet and ultimately killed their game and their business.

There is a lesson to be learned from PP's mistakes. I hope GW payed attention because they're presently on the same course that killed Privateer Press. GW is not immune to that same fate. If new players are not continually entering the game, the game will inevitably die.

X-Wing = Failure!
X-Wing was never going to stand the test of time. It had too much stacked against it.
1. FFG is a gak company that whores licenses for only as long as it remains profitable with zero effort. The very moment FFG might need to put forth a little effort to keep a line profitable, it's full on abandon ship. They're notorious for doing this.
2. The Star Wars universe is finite and cannot be expanded upon except through official channels outside of FFG's purview. Once FFG ran out of content there was no where left to go, nothing left to do and so the game inevitably died. This issue was obvious from day one, but far too many people were all "ER ME GERD! STER WERS!" "TAKE MY MONEY!". FFG knew this, capitalized on it, then cut and run. Thanks for all the fish. It's what FFG does.

So for now, GW trudges on because fans of the IP have a deep investment in it (love, money, time, etc.), but do the wrong things, cater to the wrong people for too long and the consequences will be severe. There's a fan base albeit dwindling that still values what makes W40K great, they're still the ones keeping this machine going, but can only hang to hope for a finite amount of time. Hope that GW will recognize and rectify the issue that the people they've turned their ear to for design assistance are too heavily bias and have led GW astray. (i.e. the Inner Circle play-testers have hijacked the game and are actively trying to transform W40K into an E-sport. Mike Brandt = The New Matt Ward).

BrianDavion wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
GW as an abusive spouse that insults you every day (price hikes), destroys your DVD collection (removal of WHFB) and to which you gladly crawl back to in order to kiss her feet (reintroduction of Old World) once again?

It always needs TWO persons involved for such a dynamic so GW is only to blame for 50%. Every consumer with a spine left for alternatives (in my case 9th Age) a long while ago.

About 40K:
GW seems to me like a single mother with multiple kids who I meet on a date. She insists that I pay for her brats (new editions with new codices) like a good simp would do in order to be able to spend quality time with her. But I just say "Nope" and continue to mind my own business (Oldhammer) which keeps both my sanity and wallet intact.

yet you still take every oppertunity to post on the 40k forums. continuing the "Beaten spouse" analogy, thats like the spouse who can't quit talking about their ex-spouse.

Triggered?

I can enjoy Oldhammer as much as I want without GW getting a single dime from me. Even on this forum. Mind-blown!

It's clear that GW's white knights don't like it but they need to learn that they don't have a monopoly on it just because they obediently waste their money on each new edition.

Polonius wrote:Yeah, I think Primaris were a brilliant bit of business. Space Marines have long been the cash cow for GW, but the range was fully plastic and already full of super niche new units like Centurions and Stalkers. Sure, they could update a few of the older kits like Scouts and Terminators, but they went big with a completely new line of dudes. It was also coupled with the biggest actual move forward with the lore in decades, and it's worked out really well for GW.

I stopped playing 40k when my Squats were...well squatted. 8th & Primaris brought me back. But it didn't take long(SM2.0) for me to recognize good ol' GW for what they are, OUT FOR MY $€£¥! Which they're kinda supposed to.

The models are excellent(albeit limited pose) but with some elbow grease and a bunch of tacticus armoured intercessors, you can have quite the variety of poses. Now that's cool for Primaris but when other ranges get the limited pose style of kit(looking at my snaggas) the exposed skin make for a harder proposition. Not impossible or even really difficult, just not nearly as easy as it used to be(in plastic).

But the game since 2.0 has been on a downward spiral of overly complicated super powerful combos & 9th has quadruple downed on that.
I still play it but we do open war deck, matched play pts(but no MP restrisctions)and fluffy(how ever powerful it may be). so I've been told that I don't really play 40k. if that's the case I'm glad I don't then.

As long as the models look good, I'll buy them.
As long as the lore is "good", I'll read it.
As long as the rules suck, I won't buy them.
When the above change for the worse I'll just continue as I was before I came back into the fold. Giving them absolutely $€£¥0!

 oni wrote:
Warmachine & Hordes = Failure!
snip

X-Wing = Failure!

I think there are plenty of ancillary reasons for the failures of those two games, but I think they share a common one: games (all games, really) need to either find new customers or sell more stuff to existing customers. the extra stuff can either be new, or "revised" old stuff. D&D does both, but sells everybody a new edition every decade or so. Magic keeps churning out sets. Warhammer keeps adding units to armies while also updating old models.

GW is somewhat unique in that very little of it's product (at least in terms of miniatures) is obsolete, while also operating successfully while keeping the full range for sale. WMH and X-wing hit the limits of adding stuff for different reasons, WMH because the range just became overwhelming for retail channels to stock, and X-wing because there are only so many ship designs. X-wing attempted to cash in on a second edition which seemed to no go over super well, so it's stuck. WMH can and does add stuff, but even it's fan base thinks it needs pruning.

It's a really interesting phenomenon, because to keep a community engaged you need to sell them new stuff, which is easier for companies that primarily sell rules (like WOTC) vs. companies that primarily sell models.

 Polonius wrote:

 oni wrote:
Warmachine & Hordes = Failure!
snip

X-Wing = Failure!

GW is somewhat unique in that very little of it's product (at least in terms of miniatures) is obsolete, while also operating successfully while keeping the full range for sale.

I play with my RTB-01's so definitely not obsolete. Just wish my Chaplain w power sword still was a legit loadout.