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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I actually think replacing the Nazis with Green Vault is pro-Nazi. Because instead of Nazis doing all of the objectively evil gak, it's now a completely separate organization that shares no iconography or command structure with them. Congrats Warlord, you basically just exonerated them by relegating the role of "evil bastard faction" elsewhere.
The name isn't even good. What are you going to call them for short? Greenies? It's just a bad change overall that misses the point of what made Wolfenstein and other Weird World 2 settings fun.

Giving the evil Nazis more eviler overlords does seem like a concern that shouldn't be dismissed.

As for the name, without context I would have thought Green Vault to denote a group of indoor gardeners.

 Pacific wrote:
If it walks like a nazi, talks like a nazi, then..?

... it's actually the Nazi-enabling secret society that's like totally as evil as Nazis but totally in a different way so it's definitely not Nazis? Pretty sure that's what they're going for.

Not to sound funny, but I never got into the first edition of the game and whenever I saw the miniatures, I thought I was looking at Nazis. Apparently I was wrong.

 Pacific wrote:
If it walks like a nazi, talks like a nazi, then..?

I don't know how anyone looking at those new minis (and we have been told Werewolves, totenkorps etc are en route) can say they look like anything other than henchmen from Wolfenstein, if that is the comparator.

It doesn't matter what name Warlord comes up with to disguise it, thats quite patently what they are. What is the issue exactly of not labelling them as 'nazi' for your fantasy game (as that is what this is) if Warlord think that they can dodge a few mouth-breathers from coming to the game?

Agree Yodhrin that the community dealt with those people, but I am sure they would have rather not had to.

Because it's not a "fantasy" game, it's a weird war 2 game that's supposed to cover an alternate WW2 setting that's supposed to share a range with a historical WW2 setting. In such settings, Nazis are supposed to be the de facto villain.
Replacing them with a faction that's just Nazis with a different name and iconography, except even worse because they created the Nazis (which, ironically, actually removes the blame from them, which is NOT what you want to do) misses the point.

Especially when it's not even going to "solve" the problem; if there's fanart of SS My Little Pony (yes, it exists. Regrettably. Nazis need not exist in setting to draw in Nazis. Which was a silly supposition to begin with), I seriously doubt actual Nazis are actually going to care that much and might even appreciate the change, allowing them to concoct their own fanfic about how their faction are heroic nazis rebelling against the evil Green Vault, on the grounds that they are the "true victims" after being manipulated.

The point is, the fluff change is bad, will most likely be ineffective, and just reeks like some nonsense that Jack Chick, Thompson or some other bureaucrat would come up with to avoid "offense" and enforce "moral decency".

Marvel did the same thing with Hydra as Warlord is doing with Green Vault, and I do not recall anyone losing their mind at the time.

However, that was a long time ago, and a different political world.

 Thargrim wrote:
Warlord Games has published a couple of lore articles:

United States:

https://warlord-community.warlordgames.com/konflikt-47-introducing-the-united-states/

Axis:

https://warlord-community.warlordgames.com/konflikt-47-introducing-the-axis/

I'm actually liking this. Yes, they're kind of pushing out Nazis, but the Germans are still the bad guys and Nazis are mentioned in the USA article.

As someone with US and Commonwealth armies I'm seeing some interesting dark hooks for the two of them to end up on opposite sides of a battlefields. Some dark aspects to the US faction...

As some one with a keen interest in US Christianity post WW2, the utilization of religion as a unifying national symbol is a nice nod to the cold war era, even in a game set in an extended WW2. It rings very true to me.

Found these in the garage last weekend. Really hoping there's some good options for proxying them into my forces...

 Easy E wrote:
Marvel did the same thing with Hydra as Warlord is doing with Green Vault, and I do not recall anyone losing their mind at the time.

However, that was a long time ago, and a different political world.

Not really though? IIRC, Hydra was an experimental science branch created by the Nazis that eventually went off to do their own thing after it became apparent that Hitler was losing. They didn't create the party and are more like SS Special Projects Division from Wolfenstein than the illuminati. They're still nazis.
That's not really the same thing. Similar, in that they are shadowy organizations with a fair bit of influence, but I don't think Hydra nor Death's Head took outright control of the axis. I know Death's Head didn't and I'm pretty sure Hydra waited for Hitler to lose before making bid for world domination.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Marvel did the same thing with Hydra as Warlord is doing with Green Vault, and I do not recall anyone losing their mind at the time.

However, that was a long time ago, and a different political world.

Not really though? IIRC, Hydra was an experimental science branch created by the Nazis that eventually went off to do their own thing after it became apparent that Hitler was losing. They didn't create the party and are more like SS Special Projects Division from Wolfenstein than the illuminati. They're still nazis.
That's not really the same thing. Similar, in that they are shadowy organizations with a fair bit of influence, but I don't think Hydra nor Death's Head took outright control of the axis. I know Death's Head didn't and I'm pretty sure Hydra waited for Hitler to lose before making bid for world domination.

That's the movie Hydra. The comics Hydra is far older, being descended from the Cathars and Thule Society and has been at times directly controlled by the avowed Nazi that is the Red Skull.



As for my take on this, I like the pulpy idea of the Green Vault. I know it might strike some as censorship, but it fits a Indiana Jones type of pulp Weird War very well.

I also like the notion of pulpy secret societies, but not when they're a basically total replacement used as an excuse to not have to deal with all the nasty bits. Which is actually ironic given the whole "never forget" thing - sanding the rough edges off might make people more *comfortable*, but I question whether it's actually the better way to approach difficult subject matter.

Indiana Jones fought actual-Nazis in actual-Nazi uniforms who held actual-Nazi beliefs including beliefs in weird supernatural and religious stuff, it's not either/or.

Aside from how replacing Nazis with gardeners makes the Nazis look, I find the change and wider impression it leaves me with dull. Of course with the caveat that it may just look like it from reading what's nothing more than a synopsis. Still, reading the following reinforced my feeling that the Konflikt fluff is, not to be insulting or anything, kind of lame.

 Eilif wrote:
I'm actually liking this. Yes, they're kind of pushing out Nazis, but the Germans are still the bad guys and Nazis are mentioned in the USA article.

Thank goodness the Germans are still the bad guys! I'm so glad we don't have to give up comfy stereotypes just because we threw out literal Nazis.

I know what you're thinking, but that's not my point. The point is, what actually changes? We have the same factions in the same configuration, and the German leaders do the exact thing they would have done if they were still Nazis. World domination, mad science and all the other weird and wonderful stuff that we have seen fit pulp Nazis just fine for decades don't call for a secret society of not Nazis to take over. The question I have is, what does that change actually add?

Say you limited yourself to making the one big change that turns the world war into a weird war the introduction of a secret society, why not do something more impactful with it? Off the top of my head, let them take over the Soviet Union halfway through the war. Have a ceasefire with Germany, WW1 style, so the European Axis is free to concentrate their forces on the western front and give the Western Allies a tougher nut to crack. At the same time the Soviet Union subjugates Japan and with its new vassal takes over the Asian and Pacific theaters to fight America and Britain there more effectively than Japan could ever hope to do on its own. Just like that you have three factions instead of two, and a vastly changed political and strategic landscape.

The issue for me is simple. If you make weird war, the expectation is it's the usual factions with fantastical elements. If you change the factions, don't be so lame about it and instead try something that's meaningfully different and, hopefully, even interesting.

 YodhrinsForge wrote:
I also like the notion of pulpy secret societies, but not when they're a basically total replacement used as an excuse to not have to deal with all the nasty bits. Which is actually ironic given the whole "never forget" thing - sanding the rough edges off might make people more *comfortable*, but I question whether it's actually the better way to approach difficult subject matter.

Indiana Jones fought actual-Nazis in actual-Nazi uniforms who held actual-Nazi beliefs including beliefs in weird supernatural and religious stuff, it's not either/or.

I remember GW couldn't sell the 2nd ed Ork Storm Boyz to German customers because they had a paintjob that was very WWII German, and had a single lightning bolt on the collar.
Similarly, Flames of War would not include decal sheets with complete insignia for their German armor kits.
So there are actual real-world reasons to "file off the serial numbers".

Also, it's a weird war setting. They aren't excusing anything from our world and history, imo.
They are creating an alternate direction for those with misgivings about creating a miniature project with actual Nazi symbolism.
If someone wants to Nazi them up, they will.

I avoided all insignia on my own Bolt Action and FoW German forces because I was not comfortable aping real world fascism to that degree of accuracy.
I doubt I am alone in that feeling.

I used paint schemes and camo, some numbers. But I left off all symbols. Too many (especially the Nordic rune shapes) have been co-opted by white supremacists, splinter groups, and wannabes over time.

 skrulnik wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:
I also like the notion of pulpy secret societies, but not when they're a basically total replacement used as an excuse to not have to deal with all the nasty bits. Which is actually ironic given the whole "never forget" thing - sanding the rough edges off might make people more *comfortable*, but I question whether it's actually the better way to approach difficult subject matter.

Indiana Jones fought actual-Nazis in actual-Nazi uniforms who held actual-Nazi beliefs including beliefs in weird supernatural and religious stuff, it's not either/or.

I avoided all insignia on my own Bolt Action and FoW German forces because I was not comfortable aping real world fascism to that degree of accuracy.
I doubt I am alone in that feeling.

I used paint schemes and camo, some numbers. But I left off all symbols. Too many (especially the Nordic rune shapes) have been co-opted by white supremacists, splinter groups, and wannabes over time.

So in other words, no change was necessary since people who were bothered by it already had a solution they were happy with, but now people who were bothered get to feel the warm and fluffies by enforcing their view on everyone. And don't try "just paint them as Nazis if you like" as if choosing to paint them as Nazis after the fluff was intentionally changed to make them not-Nazis won't be interpreted as having sinister motivations, exactly as some are hoping for. But that only impacts people like myself who're not fash just fans of history and with a different mentality towards it, who will walk away because we don't want to deal with snide remarks and insinuations. It's not going to stop actual Nazi fans from showing up with Nazis, because they don't care if you think they're Nazis.

Ceding ground to fash in an attempt to pretend they aren't there never works, incidentally - look at traditional architecture. I know that seems like quite a pivot, but bear with me; traditional architecture is extremely popular, people think it's attractive and appealing and it's one of the reasons expensive places to live are expensive. A few years back a bit of a backlash began against the modern styles most people(and that's borne out by survey after survey) consider pretty soulless and uninteresting but architects *love*. A small minority of the people involved in that backlash had a pretty fashy whiff about them, and a sort of unholy alliance emerged between antifash and affronted architects who abhor "pastiche" and want to keep building their 50 year lifespan concrete and glass monstrosities emerged that tried to paint the basic concept of liking traditional architecture itself as fash, obviously in the belief this would tar liking trad architecture by association, but what actually happened is a lot of the advocates who weren't fash walked away in fear of reputation damage and just not wanting to deal with the whole nonsense but the fashy smelling lads stuck around and now "that thing 70%+ of you like is OUR THING" is something fash can say to people and use as a recruiting tool.

People think Vikings and Norse stuff is cool as well. People think WW2 stuff is cool. You're not going to change that with guilt-by-association mentality, but you are going to drive away all the people who showed low-info people who interacted with them that you can like those things and not be fash, and you're going to create an environment where fash voices can speak with less opposition.

The fact is that today in much of the marketplace, Nazi iconography, history, etc, is really only acceptable when it's very firmly grounded in the presentation of a historical reality, and sometimes not even then.

For many reasons (sometimes legal ones) and especially in toys, games, and other physical products, once you leave a distinctly historical presentation/setting/etc, the presence of Nazi stuff is rightfully far less accepted. There are grey areas (especially in film and literature), but I think this appropriate adjustment for social acceptability is what we're seeing here.

I personally think this is a perfectly reasonable path to take and that it makes alot of sense that for a game that is more and more divorced from historical WW2, that they would also move away from depictions of Nazis. Some will disagree, and players will insignia their troops as they wish, but I don't think folks should fault Warlord from moving away from depictions of Nazis in K47.

Also, from a purely financial perspective, there's really nothing to lose by not having swastika's on your Sci-Fantasy gaming products...

This podcast might shine some light on their thinking with the changes to the game.

https://soundcloud.com/whatsabattlepodcastnetwork/the-officia-warlord-games?fbclid=IwY2xjawLvX8ZleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETExVjA5Y1VLV2hpZkdtTmdtAR4rG_0pAnjzczxBb4vbXZqix9o8Vl2vJgR_TXwcNK8e3qcCAH2g-DN7MHN_Gg_aem_Upaxby4qa2JJVD16QtD3Gw

It feels like they want to shift further from WW2 into more of a sci fi territory. And give people more freedom to paint the minis however they want, instead of feeling compelled to stick with historical color schemes. They also do confirm a 5 year plan for releases.

My feelings on the lore changes are mixed, will have to see how the other 3 factions shape up.

 Thargrim wrote:
This podcast might shine some light on their thinking with the changes to the game.

It feels like they want to shift further from WW2 into more of a sci fi territory. And give people more freedom to paint the minis however they want, instead of feeling compelled to stick with historical color schemes. They also do confirm a 5 year plan for releases.

That's fair and I do appreciate that sentiment, but they could have done that without subjecting the Axis to the corporate censor treatment and render historical Axis ranges incompatible unless you repaint them.

They should have done what they did to the Americans; say that Rift Tech had a profound political effect on the Third Reich by giving the Thule Society something to show off, thereby increasing their influence in the faction and making them the dominant force in the party. That way they can introduce Thule Society specific heraldry (like the GGG in Bloodrayne or Death's Head forces in Wolfenstein) whilst still making it fluff friendly to have more historical heraldry so you can still use your historical BA range with the more fantastical models. Which is what they said you could do.
Not introduce a shadowy faction out of nowhere complete with "safe" iconography that looks like it came out of an AI, that's basically just marketing approved nazis in everything but name.

I really hope they don't try to sanitize Imperial Japan next and say that the IJA wasn't at fault, it was really literal onis or some nonsense.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I think with regards to what GW and even now companies like Trench Crusade have had to go through with 'less desirable' elements of their communities, and this causing very bad PR, I absolutely don't blame Warlord for taking this route.

If you read the background release that came out yesterday about Green Vault, despite the rubbish name, this is still a shadowy group that apparently directed the nazis in WW2, all of their actions, and thinks nothing of splicing dog and human DNA, using their dead troops as zombies etc. i.e. they are not very nice guys. If this stops people with '88' tattoos or otherwise with a pendent for swastikas from playing the game, and some of those will have been attracted to a fantasy universe where the third reich persists, then it is not a bad move in my book.

It won't though. Unless Warlord inscribes an arcane nazi-repellent sigil on each of their miniatures, there is nothing stopping those sorts from enjoying a bit of entertainment. Especially when Nazis still exist in universe and Warlord already said you can use your Bolt-action army with K47.
Taking the nazis out of a Weird War 2 game is just silly. What next, no nazis in Wolfenstein, because too many people thought the UberSoldats looked cool?

Funny story - the German localization of the Wolfenstein games did exactly that. All Swastikas are replaced by the Wolfenstein logo, all mentions of National Socialism and Nazi Germany are replaced by the "Order" and the infamous train scene where Frau Engel tries to deduce wether or not B.J. is Aryan changed her dialogue into her interrogating him about his "pure mind" or something like that.

But I'm pretty sure that pretty much zero German gamers got immersed into that and everybody was perfectly aware that the antagonists were an AltHistory vesion of Nazi Germany.