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Manchu wrote:I didn't say Rachel was Tim, either. I said I don't think they're comparable, i.e., they don't serve a similar role.
I think you're still not really understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying Rachel is directly comparable to a single character; I'm saying she seems to be a composite of two of the biggest "change" heralding characters in the Batfamily.
Jason Todd, while "hated" by fans was still a big deal. He's Bruce's biggest failure, and the shadow of that still was with him up until the end of the "Hush" storyline. Drake even said something as much to Selina about it, how everything Bruce trained into him was to help him avoid that same fate.
Tim Drake was a big deal as well, because at last we had someone from the get-go who was apparently "in tune" with Bruce's moods and his investigative skills. Drake became a kind of heir apparent to Bruce's mantle, which is why the outcome of "Battle for the Cowl" was such a big deal.
As for the other characters, ask yourself what the movie would lose if Alfred and Gordon weren't in it at all. Some "heart," whatever that means, maybe? Some recognizability for the franchise, more likely. But no plot points would need major revisions, thanks to Rachel doing almost everything.
I can't think of any major plot points off the top of my head for the comics involving Gordon or Alfred in major roles. Best one I can think of is from the Batman RIP companion piece, where there's a short story of Gordon taking on Mr. Freeze.
I totally disagree with your statements about Dick & Babs. Please see Batman TAS, for example.
This kind of depends on context. The basic story and behaviorisms of Dick Grayson, as the Boy Wonder wouldn't really fit into the 'Nolanverse' Batman. I like Grayson, but really he's become a far better character after he left Bruce's side. "Battle for the Cowl" really cemented him as a character, IMO. It's very similar to how they fit Nightwing and Robin into the Arkham games.
Barbara would, in my opinion, feel too forced. She's a character who if done well can be an amazing piece, but if done wrong just comes out as "Batman with Breasts".
Oracle, on the other hand, would have been a fantastic addition to the Nolanverse I think.
Ra's, too, is hardly a backburner. Yes, he's in the shadows for much of the time but there's always the climactic fight -- which Nolan gave us, mind. My bringing up Ra's was to show that he was not a pivotal character in Batman Begins compared to Rachel, that's all.
And you see, that's kind of the problem. Ra's is a puppetmaster. He might know all these varying styles of combat, but really--he has an army of loyal followers to fight for him.
I liken Ra's to Palpatine in the Star Wars Prequels. Because we constantly saw Dooku talking to Sidious on a holocommunicator(and we know that he becomes the Emperor at some point), it ruined a potential narrative element that was left undone.
Nolan didn't engage in that by having scenes with Ra's talking to his minions. At most, we had the dinner party at Wayne Manor and the parts with Crane and Dawes. But the simple fact that we heard "Ra's" at one point kind of gives a lot of it away.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/05 21:14:04
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Kanluwen wrote:I can't think of any major plot points off the top of my head for the comics involving Gordon or Alfred in major roles.
BATMAN YEAR ONE????
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kan, I'm not saying that these other characters should have/should appear in a Nolan movie. I'm saying that their roles in the comic books are all rendered superfluous by Rachel Dawes.
Except for Oracle. Lucius Fox supplants Oracle.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/05 21:28:00
I'm afraid I cannot agree with the idea that Rachel was the most important person in both Batman Begins and Dark Knight. Can't even remember what she did but I remember everyone else.
LOL. She didn't ruin Dark Knight for me. Ledger was just too entertaining to watch for me to register Maggie Gyllenhaal (that doesn't change the fact that she played a central role in the script). There was a lot less going on in Batman Begins and she (rachel) did kind of spoil that for me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/05 21:44:56
Dunno, maybe I just don't give a gak what the author of a piece thinks. Rachel Dawes might have been INTENDED to have been a core plotline, but, well... I just didn't care about her when I watched, so she wasn't one.
An author's intent is rather irrelevant when a person is watching the movie...
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Super heroes are distracting even in their own movies. The story has to compete with the fantasy. With Nolan's literalism, the fantasy is held up to an even greater scrutiny because literalism invites a challenge. "Could he really do that?" So it's easy not to pay attention. But the story is what it is. I mean, whether you understood it or missed it, Rachel serves the purposes I have described.
Alfred and Gordon are in the movie because "it's a a Batman movie" but Rachel was invented explicitly to give us Nolan's take on Batman as opposed to the many, many other takes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/05 23:47:11
The story is also not a dictate by the author, but a compromise from the author's writing and the reader's cultural context.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Anung Un Rama wrote:
So, (ultimate) Spider-Man is dead... well, !
Spoiler:
The story in itself worked, that Spidey got himself killed because he confronted the sinister six even though he knew he was badly wounded. What pissed me off though, was that the Ultimates could've saved him, if they wouldn't have been busy fighting among each other. I'm still not sure if I even want to read the Ultimates Tie-in to Death of Spider-Man.
The saddest thing about the whole ordeal was, that for the first time during the entire series, Peter's life was... good. He was back with his girlfriend, he had a job, the relationships with friends and family couldn't have been better. I wanted to read more!
One thing I have learned from TV/Books/ect is that the better things appear to be, the worse they're about to get.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I agree about new Gotham, it's not gothic and decrepit. That is not Gotham, it's just a normal city. Tim Burton knew how to pull of a Gotham.
I might be wrong with this, but wasn't it Tim Burton's portrayal of the character and the world back in '89 that made Batman an Gotham what they are today? And then the animated series continued that style and gave uns new, better versions of villians like Freeze.
Aduro wrote:
Anung Un Rama wrote: So, (ultimate) Spider-Man is dead... well, !
Spoiler:
The story in itself worked, that Spidey got himself killed because he confronted the sinister six even though he knew he was badly wounded. What pissed me off though, was that the Ultimates could've saved him, if they wouldn't have been busy fighting among each other. I'm still not sure if I even want to read the Ultimates Tie-in to Death of Spider-Man. The saddest thing about the whole ordeal was, that for the first time during the entire series, Peter's life was... good. He was back with his girlfriend, he had a job, the relationships with friends and family couldn't have been better. I wanted to read more!
One thing I have learned from TV/Books/ect is that the better things appear to be, the worse they're about to get.
That's true. I'm still pissed off though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/06 08:27:37
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I agree about new Gotham, it's not gothic and decrepit. That is not Gotham, it's just a normal city. Tim Burton knew how to pull of a Gotham.
I might be wrong with this, but wasn't it Tim Burton's portrayal of the character and the world back in '89 that made Batman an Gotham what they are today? And then the animated series continued that style and gave uns new, better versions of villians like Freeze.
Maybe. If so, they owe him. Certainly, it wasn't shiny and new like the new movies. It's supposed to be a cesspool of humanity and corruption.
Caught up on Animal Man. Interesting stuff with interesting artwork...and will be more interesting how it interfaces with Swamp Thing and the Green.
Also read the new Action Comics.
Spoiler:
Metal-zero suit, eh? Metal-0. Cute. Still not sure about the mashup with Brainac, but we'll see where the character goes from here, I guess.
Was surprised to see John Henry Irons become Steel (or at least proto-Steel) so "soon." Still think he was a better choice for the JLA than Cyborg -- especially if DC was fine with a non-Death of Superman related version of the character. But c'est la vie. I hope he updates the suit in later appearances...right now it reminds me too much of the Shaquille O'Neal movie.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Digging Avenging Spider-Man so far.
I heard he hooks up with Miss Marvel.
Right now he's teamed up with Red Hulk. Red Hulk thinks he's a moron and a weakling so it's pretty funny. I guess its supposed to be like a Marvel Team-Up book.
gorgon wrote:Caught up on Animal Man. Interesting stuff with interesting artwork...and will be more interesting how it interfaces with Swamp Thing and the Green.
Also read the new Action Comics.
Spoiler:
Metal-zero suit, eh? Metal-0. Cute. Still not sure about the mashup with Brainac, but we'll see where the character goes from here, I guess.
Was surprised to see John Henry Irons become Steel (or at least proto-Steel) so "soon." Still think he was a better choice for the JLA than Cyborg -- especially if DC was fine with a non-Death of Superman related version of the character. But c'est la vie. I hope he updates the suit in later appearances...right now it reminds me too much of the Shaquille O'Neal movie.
I agree with every point.
I actually kind of dig the Animal Man artwork, it works well IMO. Swamp Thing is great though, very well written and drawn, almost perfect. Action Comics is also just a lot of fun, good sense of dynamism to it.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Yes, but then he got better. He's been an Avenger for a while actually. You guys are quite behind over there, or do you not follow avengers?
I'm not sure about the exact timeframe between English and German publishing. The last Deadpool issue had him meeting Steve Rogers and we're getting the DC Reboot in late spring.
Demon Knights continues to be fun, and the JLA, finally, appears to be gelling.
Gotta say I'm not overly bothered about the Jim Lee pencils, but I can accept I might well be in a minority here.
Very pleased to pick up the 9th volume of The Boyz, which is darkly entertaining as ever.
Things coming to a head there sooner rather than later methinks. The ending os this trade collection is pretty messed up even for this series.
... and don't get me started about that bit with "Monkey" in the bedroom at DC !
Also picked up ( as a xmas treat) Slaine : book of invasions volume III, which I'm looking forwards to immensely.
Had to indulge myself with the Batman : Leviathan Strikes, which is pure Morrison insanity/brilliance. The way he's plotted all this and lain down these seeds is remarkable indeed.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
! 
