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Yeah, that sounds good, ChocolateGork! I will be very interested to see what people do, as I will certainly need to keep track- particularly if I'm able to mix types of tanks in my Scourge dropships (i.e. each with an AA, regular, and maybe heavy tank, and they all go zooming around and mixing up).

Okay, ya'll. Have we heard any word on army points cost yet? I had stuff in my cart (again) last night and think I've overcome my issues with the activations due to the really brilliant flag idea by ChocoGork.

I'd like to probably just get the standard army and add a unit or three, but really would love some sense of there this places me points wise. I'll be grabbing PHR, so I know my point values will skew higher?

Anyone have their ear to the ground that has heard more?

No idea about point costs or what goes where or even how to play. I just like the models, so I'll start with my starter army and add to what I need from there same as every other game

well again, if the rules aren't finished then it's very unlikely points values are set. They certainly weren't finalised at the time of the liveblog

Having said that, 2000ish points is the norm, and the large army deals are around that size. I'd expect the PHR Large set to be around 1800, give or take (allowing for the possibility of upgrades and commanders boosting it up to 2K

Ok, maybe I am not understanding some of the movement rules and whatnot, but lets say I have 5 battlegroups and my opponent has 4. After determining initiative, lets say I won, I get to activate a single battlegroup and do its activations. Then, the opponent moves one of his battlegroups. And these all follow whatever initiative the battlegroups were determined?

I like this, if I am understanding this correctly.

I didn't read it as you needing to determine initiative of each battlegroup but rather of each player. So I activate one, you activate one, and so on.

God, I hope I didn't misread that and you have to determine init for each battlegroup....

I've heard it so far as an I go you go sort of thing, so only one initiative roll. It would make sense, I think.

Either way works, I just do not like the whole "activate my entire side" then the opponent "activate his/her whole side".

Good to hear.

Zyllos wrote:Ok, maybe I am not understanding some of the movement rules and whatnot, but lets say I have 5 battlegroups and my opponent has 4. After determining initiative, lets say I won, I get to activate a single battlegroup and do its activations. Then, the opponent moves one of his battlegroups. And these all follow whatever initiative the battlegroups were determined?

I like this, if I am understanding this correctly.

Sounds about right, think Malifaux, and Warmahordes movement but your models are in battle groups so you move 2+ models instead of just 1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dont think there is an initiative order I believe it is player 1 picks his BG that goes and then player 2 Picks his. It is like chess but with multiple models instead of just 1

A quick review by some lucky sods who had a UCM vs Scourge game at "Hawk Wargames Central":

http://theshellcase.co.uk/2012/06/24/a-first-look-at-drop-zone-commander/

It sounds like rules are still being hammered out and fine tuned from that article, so it's not surprising we don't have any out yet.

Good writeup though.

That's the same article linked to above, but it's great! Had a bit of a role in tipping me over to choose Scourge

I like it but I want to know more about them PHR!!!!

Though they got some DW-stuff wrong in this report.

Hawk is VAT-registered, but I've not had any response to whether or not overseas orders will be charged VAT - and I asked Dave about a week ago now. While I can understand that VAT could be used to subsidize overseas shipping, the VAT included in the cost of a 250 quid army isn't chump change (it's more than £40 actually).

I'm really hoping he'll address this because me buying more than one army is somewhat predicated on the VAT question...

I'm not a fan of the models...is there any word that the company, if it sponsors any events, will require you to use their figures? I'm scanning now for other 10mm sci fin models and am pleasntly surprised.

I wish I could use my epic models but they are too small...

KGatch113 wrote:

I'm not a fan of the models...is there any word that the company, if it sponsors any events, will require you to use their figures? I'm scanning now for other 10mm sci fin models and am pleasntly surprised.

I wish I could use my epic models but they are too small...

*gasp* Thats odd, but I guess taste it to each of his own...

The rules can be made of gak for all that I care, the models demand me to buy in!

angryboy2k wrote:Hawk is VAT-registered, but I've not had any response to whether or not overseas orders will be charged VAT - and I asked Dave about a week ago now. While I can understand that VAT could be used to subsidize overseas shipping, the VAT included in the cost of a 250 quid army isn't chump change (it's more than £40 actually).

I'm really hoping he'll address this because me buying more than one army is somewhat predicated on the VAT question...

It's actually illegal for any UK business to charge VAT for overseas sales (I believe outside of EU in any case)

There was an article in the newspaper about it a few months ago, the UK government is really cracking down on companies that do it at the moment, and any that do could face massive fines.

For overseas sales, they should give you a statement that shows the price, minus the percentage of VAT, and then with whatever shipping costs added on top of it.

they can still state "overseas orders incur additional handling charges equal to UK VAT" in the small print, though...

Pacific wrote:

angryboy2k wrote:Hawk is VAT-registered, but I've not had any response to whether or not overseas orders will be charged VAT - and I asked Dave about a week ago now. While I can understand that VAT could be used to subsidize overseas shipping, the VAT included in the cost of a 250 quid army isn't chump change (it's more than £40 actually).

I'm really hoping he'll address this because me buying more than one army is somewhat predicated on the VAT question...

It's actually illegal for any UK business to charge VAT for overseas sales (I believe outside of EU in any case)

There was an article in the newspaper about it a few months ago, the UK government is really cracking down on companies that do it at the moment, and any that do could face massive fines.

For overseas sales, they should give you a statement that shows the price, minus the percentage of VAT, and then with whatever shipping costs added on top of it.

This is true and deserves further explanation.

Some dishonest traders will sell overseas and add VAT. As VAT is not taxable the difference is pocketed. This is illegal.
Therefore VAT registry also includes a built in mechanism to waive VAT for foreign customers.
Hawk Wargames by VAT registering will have to comply with this system.

So do not worry about VAT, it will be removed at source. This means a 20% discount for overseas customers. The bad news is that the sale is registered and placed on th customs docket, the US will likely charge import duty and that may exheed 20%. You may wish to look at buying from Warstore or Miniature Market instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThomasPolder wrote:they can still state "overseas orders incur additional handling charges equal to UK VAT" in the small print, though...

True, but if they don't, its illegal not to discount the 20% for VAT.
Hawk has made no such caveat, therefore they must discount 20% or are breaking the law.

At an absolute worst case Hawk might erroneously charge you the 20%, in which case you email Hawk and say I was charged VAT though I am outside the EU, please refund. If Hawk fails to do so you can email trading standards in the Uk, whio will force a discount via Hawk wargames charge account. Most companies will know better than to let it get that far.

The UK is a safe place to trade electronically as the laws favour the consumer. If the trading standards tell the handling bank to refund you they refund you, Hawk cant actually stop it.

I can only see it going this far if Hawk are not clued up with the system and make a noob business error. This is possible, but will be very quickly sorted out as soon as the first of many US customers tries to place a pre-order. Chances are this issue, if present, is already dealt with, as Hawk are already taking overseas orders and some will be aware of the UK's VAT laws having dealt with Forgeworld and GW.

In a nutshell, dont worry, just keep an eye on the import duties and compare ordering from Hawk against ordering from a 'local' webstore. You can find those out at your country's main customs website.

Pacific wrote:
It's actually illegal for any UK business to charge VAT for overseas sales (I believe outside of EU in any case)

Someone should remind Forgeworld then.

Orlanth wrote:


So do not worry about VAT, it will be removed at source. This means a 20% discount for overseas customers. The bad news is that the sale is registered and placed on th customs docket, the US will likely charge import duty and that may exheed 20%. You may wish to look at buying from Warstore or Miniature Market instead.

That makes no sense - the US doesn't care whether or not a product has been taxed in the UK. The only thing US customs will do is examine the product type, check against the code and the duty-free value, and charge duty on it as applicable. In fact, leaving the VAT in the price would be detrimental to US customers, not just because they'd be paying tax twice, but because the added value of the VAT could push the total value over the dutiable value threshold (which is actually quite high for toys and miniatures being imported into the US - I think it's at least $250 that can be imported duty-free).

Orlanth wrote:
At an absolute worst case Hawk might erroneously charge you the 20%, in which case you email Hawk and say I was charged VAT though I am outside the EU, please refund. If Hawk fails to do so you can email trading standards in the Uk, whio will force a discount via Hawk wargames charge account. Most companies will know better than to let it get that far.

The UK is a safe place to trade electronically as the laws favour the consumer. If the trading standards tell the handling bank to refund you they refund you, Hawk cant actually stop it.

I can only see it going this far if Hawk are not clued up with the system and make a noob business error. This is possible, but will be very quickly sorted out as soon as the first of many US customers tries to place a pre-order. Chances are this issue, if present, is already dealt with, as Hawk are already taking overseas orders and some will be aware of the UK's VAT laws having dealt with Forgeworld and GW.

I smell a class-action suit against Forge World - who's in to get back their taxes? They owe me a fortune...

Orlanth wrote:
In a nutshell, dont worry, just keep an eye on the import duties and compare ordering from Hawk against ordering from a 'local' webstore. You can find those out at your country's main customs website.

I'll stop worrying when Hawk's website automatically deducts VAT or when Dave answers my email about it.

Sikil wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:

I'm not a fan of the models...is there any word that the company, if it sponsors any events, will require you to use their figures? I'm scanning now for other 10mm sci fin models and am pleasntly surprised.

I wish I could use my epic models but they are too small...

*gasp* Thats odd, but I guess taste it to each of his own...

The rules can be made of gak for all that I care, the models demand me to buy in!

Agreed - that is an odd stance!

If you don't like the miniatures, and we haven't really heard much of substance about the rules, I find it hard to believe you'd have any interest in the game at all!

Zyllos wrote:Ok, maybe I am not understanding some of the movement rules and whatnot, but lets say I have 5 battlegroups and my opponent has 4. After determining initiative, lets say I won, I get to activate a single battlegroup and do its activations. Then, the opponent moves one of his battlegroups. And these all follow whatever initiative the battlegroups were determined?

I like this, if I am understanding this correctly.

Yes as the beginning of each turn you roll off for initiative and then whoever won activates his first battle group and then the opponent activates his first and then it repeats until all have been activated or destroyed and then the turn ends and you roll again for initiative.

As for having more battle-group than an opponent. I think there will be a certain number of them you have to have per points level with each being within a certain range of points.

But there are some serious disadvantages to both having large and few BGs and Multiple Small BGs.

The problem with small is they can be wiped away before they activate

And the problem with large is you can far less reactive based on the opponents actions. But they are far more resilient and a large group could wipe away multiple enemy battle-groups before they get activated.

angryboy2k wrote:

I'll stop worrying when Hawk's website automatically deducts VAT or when Dave answers my email about it.

There is an alternative. do a pre-order and when it comes to inputting your card details look at the price offered, if adjusted when you input the destination country buy, if not dont. You have to manually confirm payment , simply don't do so. Do this before you add any actual card number/Paypal account details so there is no chance of getting it wrong.

Orlanth wrote:

angryboy2k wrote:

I'll stop worrying when Hawk's website automatically deducts VAT or when Dave answers my email about it.

There is an alternative. do a pre-order and when it comes to inputting your card details look at the price offered, if adjusted when you input the destination country buy, if not dont. You have to manually confirm payment , simply don't do so. Do this before you add any actual card number details so there is no chance of getting it wrong.

I already did that.

angryboy2k wrote:
I already did that.

I assume it didn't adjust the price.

Ok. mayber it does so afterwards.

Option 2: Ask around on this thread if anyone in the US has preordered, and ask if VAT was removed. You might get an asnwer.

Option 3. Email Bex, not Dave, Dave is too busy, Bex might answer your question.

Failing that its wait or buy on Warstore/Miniature market. Have you worked out if thats cheaper yet?

Orlanth wrote:

angryboy2k wrote:
I already did that.

I assume it didn't adjust the price.

Ok. mayber it does so afterwards.

Option 2: Ask around on this thread if anyone in the US has preordered, and ask if VAT was removed. You might get an asnwer.

Option 3. Email Bex, not Dave, Dave is too busy, Bex might answer your question.

Failing that its wait or buy on Warstore/Miniature market. Have you worked out if thats cheaper yet?

I tried writing to the info email address on the site. Where can I find Bex's email address?

I'm not in the States. The discount from ordering from an online store is not as good as the discount on the Mega army plus KR case.

Hawk Wargames is still in Chaos, overwhelmed by the demand. They promised to reveal distributor info a week ago, but still no answer. So join the line.

angryboy2k wrote:
I tried writing to the info email address on the site. Where can I find Bex's email address?

Same address, but write To Bex rather than To Dave.

Frankly I would wait a little Bex does most of the replies at the moment but she may take a while. The above is just a 'queue jump' Hawk is superbusy so frankly if we might as well all wait. Must you do this now? You have until the 9th July to get your order in ready for release day. Placing the order anytime between now and then will not speed anything up for you. So you have nothing to lose by waiting a week, or most of two.

I don't think VAT will affect US folks at all, unless I'm missing something.