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It will if they forget to remove it from the total. All prices in the Uk must be VAT inclusive.
If its left on thats an extra 20% you don't have to pay.

I will be sick as parrot if you get 20% off, with free global shipping and come under the threshold at which customs gouges you.

I could do with 20% off. I want my UCM mega deal, but am having difficulty in finding £220. I reluctantly decided to get a non premium version to save immediate cash. Because on calculation I can buy the large case separate for £31.99 with free p+p straight from KR.

Orlanth wrote:It will if they forget to remove it from the total. All prices in the Uk must be VAT inclusive.
If its left on thats an extra 20% you don't have to pay.

I will be sick as parrot if you get 20% off, with free global shipping and come under the threshold at which customs gouges you.

I could do with 20% off. I want my UCM mega deal, but am having difficulty in finding £220. I reluctantly decided to get a non premium version to save immediate cash. Because on calculation I can buy the large case separate for £31.99 with free p+p straight from KR.

Your interpretation of VAT rules throughout this thread is 100% wrong when it comes to how overseas sales can be treated on a website I am afraid.

Providing the price on the website show a GBP price and makes no mention of VAT all is good and the seller is doing nothing illegal. For example, goods offerred for 120GBP. For non-EU orders you send out an invoice with no VAT + no VAT number out for 120GBP. For EU orders you send out a VAT invoices that has goods valued at 100.00 and shows VAT for 20.00.

The fact that your price you shows on screen actually includes VAT in practice is irrelevent unless it specifies it.

fullheadofhair wrote:Providing the price on the website show a GBP price and makes no mention of VAT all is good and the seller is doing nothing illegal.
...
The fact that your price you shows on screen actually includes VAT in practice is irrelevent unless it specifies it.

This is the impression I've always had, having made a number of orders with UK companies. VAT never comes into it, and I've never seen it listed / broken out / etc.

It's a valid concern, but I think there's nothing to worry about if it's anything like what we normally see with orders to the UK.

Just like ordering direct from Forgeworld, right? You just pay the price listed on the website, and that's that. Nothing to see here, move along, etc etc?

fullheadofhair wrote:

Your interpretation of VAT rules throughout this thread is 100% wrong when it comes to how overseas sales can be treated on a website I am afraid.

Ok. Giving wrong financial advice is bad, correct me if you see anything.

fullheadofhair wrote:
Providing the price on the website show a GBP price and makes no mention of VAT all is good and the seller is doing nothing illegal. For example, goods offered for 120GBP. For non-EU orders you send out an invoice with no VAT + no VAT number out for 120GBP. For EU orders you send out a VAT invoices that has goods valued at 100.00 and shows VAT for 20.00.

Now a price on screen must include VAT. If purchased in the UK that is a VAT price. So £120 includes tax paid, now if the price is still £120 to foreign buyers then the price is formally £120 +VAT with VAT waived for foreign sale. the Inland Revenue can say. Hold on you are retailing this at £120 basic, so where is our VAT? You should be taxing on a total of £144.
What a company might see as extra revenue from foreign buyers the UK taxman sees as illegal VAT discounting. The Inland Revenue like to look at things from their perspective no, less than the IRS does your end.
Hawk must 'zero rate' its VAT where it is not valid, and give evidence that the good leave the EU and that the price was zero rated or pay the VAT. It has no right to charge as if VAT was being charged and pocket the difference. I can see companies doing that, but its difficult for new companies entirely working on electronic transactions. The fraud, and the Inland Revenue will see it as fraud, is easy to detect.

The last thing a 'dodgy Hawk' would want is a formal tax return invoice for the VAT value from a foreign customer CC'd to the Inland Revenue. Tax inspectors would by over the company like a rash.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/exports/goods.htm

3.3 Conditions for zero-rating direct exports
The text in this box has the force of law

A supply of goods sent to a destination outside the EC is liable to the zero rate as a direct export where you:
- ensure that the goods are exported from the EC within the specified time limits (see paragraph 3.5)
- obtain official or commercial evidence of export as appropriate (see paragraphs 6.2 and 6.3) within the specified time limits
- keep supplementary evidence of the export transaction (see paragraph 6.4), and
- comply with the law and the conditions of this notice.

fullheadofhair wrote:
The fact that your price you shows on screen actually includes VAT in practice is irrelevent unless it specifies it.

To close all loopholes all prices 'include' VAT.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/basics.htm#1

A lot of companies used to show price as say £99 +VAT with the full total in small print. Computer companies did that a lot, some hid the fact that their price lists didn't include VAT which left open cause for alarm over cash trading and caught the attention of consumer goods under mislabelling regulations.

So now all prices in the UK must show VAT, if one price is shown that price is considered VAT inclusive by the government. The only exceptions are price lists for trade only (to businesses not private consumers). Those can be listed VAT exclusive. Its also legal to show both prices but no longer can a customer be misled by making the VAT inclusive price smallprint, both prices must be equally clear.

Hawk has only one price and the product listing is for the private consumer. Therefore that is a VAT inclusive price by law. This doesn't stop Hawk from charging VAT as a 'one price for all' , its the easiest option for them, but Hawk would have to pay VAT to the Inland Revenue if the VAT is not formally 'zero rated' even though it was a sale for export. It is in Hawks interest to 'zero rate' as it cuts prices without cost to the company and thus tempts bigger sales. On the other hand zero rating involves jumping through some hoops, like proving evidence ther good left the EU. This is easy enough to do, but Hawk might not be set up for that yet.
In any event Hawk can charge VAT, set zero rate VAT, to charge as if VAT was paid and pocket the difference is not a legal third option. If this is what is happening to you with UK trades fullheadofhair either you or the taxman are being cheated, probably the taxman, possibly both.

I hope this sets things straight.

Argh, I am ready to get back to talking about models/rules/etc.

As a consumer, I order from the UK all the time, and find out nothing about VAT, nor do I care. I will pay the price listed on the website, and they can sort out with the taxman whatever they need to- just like any other company!

Orlanth, there are only two relevant concerns here:

They can't quote a price lower than they'll actually charge the customer. ("Only £100! Plus £20 VAT.")
They can't pretend that they're paying taxes they don't have to pay. (Telling a non-European that the price is higher to cover the VAT.)

As long as they don't do either of these two things, they're golden.

Now, back to the models.

I've preordered a pair of Taranis and a pair of Enyos for 28mm gaming. Leaving the MLRS off one of the Taranis should give me a nice little flatbed drone one might imagine hauling gear or wounded.

AlexHolker wrote:Orlanth, there are only two relevant concerns here:

They can't quote a price lower than they'll actually charge the customer. ("Only £100! Plus £20 VAT.")

Look at the links in the post. Its best to get the regs from the goverment website.
Yes what you say is correct, and I already said as much myself. If VAT exlusive price is given it must be the same size and clarity as the VAT exclusive price.

AlexHolker wrote:
They can't pretend that they're paying taxes they don't have to pay. (Telling a non-European that the price is higher to cover the VAT.)

True enough, but not whats happening. If Hawk ships to you in Oz they dont have to pay VAT, but only idf they 'zero rate the VAt and jump through the appropriate hoops. If they fail to 'zero rate' then VAT is chargable even if the goods are exported outside of the EU. Check the wording on the links, its clear that this is how it works.

AlexHolker wrote:
As long as they don't do either of these two things, they're golden.

Hawk has one price, so its considered VAT inclusive by law.
Hawk must either pay VAT out of the monies they receive, or zero rate the goods they sell to you, formally.
There is no legal third option they can sell to you under unless you count as a retailer.

AlexHolker wrote:
Now, back to the models.

I've preordered a pair of Taranis and a pair of Enyos for 28mm gaming. Leaving the MLRS off one of the Taranis should give me a nice little flatbed drone one might imagine hauling gear or wounded.

You checked how small they are. In 40k terms its a tracked surfboard.

Orlanth wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:Now, back to the models.

I've preordered a pair of Taranis and a pair of Enyos for 28mm gaming. Leaving the MLRS off one of the Taranis should give me a nice little flatbed drone one might imagine hauling gear or wounded.

You checked how small they are. In 40k terms its a tracked surfboard.

I did - I was thinking of those modified MALPs you saw sometimes on Stargate SG-1. ~25mm*40mm should be big enough for that.

Orlanth wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:
As long as they don't do either of these two things, they're golden.

Hawk has one price, so its considered VAT inclusive by law.
Hawk must either pay VAT out of the monies they receive, or zero rate the goods they sell to you, formally.
There is no legal third option they can sell to you under unless you count as a retailer.

No, totally wrong.

And why do I know?

25yrs as an accountant. 15yrs of them in the UK (I am English btw, despite the flag). Approx 3 yrs was working with VAT including several VAT investigations/ audits and having to deal with polyester trouser and grey shoe wearing VAT inspectors on minutia of VAT law. I have also exchange emails with the head of FW over this when I tried to order from the US and have also spoken with the VAT people and had it confirmed there. Yes, I am that big a geek.

The bit you are missing is that the price being charge is VAT inclusive where VAT is charged (one difference between a VAT system and a sales tax system). They are never charging/ display a VAT exclusive price so the links you provide don't apply. What they are in effect saying is this is the universal price you all pay and it is inclusive of all taxes we the company need to charge you. A zero rated VAT invoice is only used in the EU region for goods where a zero rate is charged - you don't need to use it for ROW because VAT is not applicable and the sale is outside the VAT system.

So taking FW for example, they advertise a price on their website of GBP120. To you in the UK, that is the price inclusive of VAT. When you order from them, the screen should display VAT and goods separately in the cart. The invoice you will be given will have a VAT number on it and also split the VAT out. Us poor buggers in the US just get an invoice that states you have paid GBP120 - which we did because that is price we paid. When the VAT return is completed by the company it will state:

Overseas/ Zero rated VAT Sales 120 GBP
VAT Sales 100 GBP
VAT Owed 20 GBP

This is the reason why the only time I ever order from FW is when I go to the UK. They fill in a form and I claim the VAT as I leave the country. If I buy enough I don't get charged postage.

The real cheek is when FW et al then charge higher postage to the US dispite making an extra 20% on the sale. Note, I said it was legal how they treat VAT and not ethical - I personally believe that any company that does this is ripping outside EU people off.

Anyhoo that is enough geekiness even for me - I have been watching this thread for quite a while. I have a few friends who have talked about it and I definitely like what I am seeing. I just wonder what the take up rate for this is going to be. I have a boat load of computer games and built and unbuilt models for games no-one plays any more with things just gathering dust in the corner of a dark room similar to Toy Story.

Why does what you say conflict with the information on the Inland Revenue website?

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageLibrary_PublicNoticesAndInfoSheets&propertyType=document&columns=1&id=HMCE_CL_000130#P216_18083

Are you talking loopholes the Inland Revenue don't generally want people to know, is your info outdated, are you dealing with industries with exemptions?

That was an interesting read Fullheadofhair, thanks for posting it.

So, what I think is the interesting point here, and really the crux of the matter, is that there is no requirement for the seller to write either 'price includes VAT' on the sale price description of the item?

So, if the seller doesn't specify this on the sale, then for UK/EU sales they just give that 20% to the taxman. And then presumably it just gets taken as extra profit for any orders outside of the EU/UK?

Am I reading that correctly? If so, there are stronger words I would use than 'unethical'!

Ordering from Wayland and Maelstrom previously, while living outside the EU, I was able to get VAT deducted on all of the purchases I made - and (IIRC) I had an order total which detailed that amount. Considering the amount you have to pay for international P&P, it actually makes quite a difference to the price.

As fullheadofhair points out, this is identical to any other UK company selling online, like Forgeworld.

Still cheaper to order large/mega direct than to go through a distributor, since those are direct only and offer a nice savings.

Glad I can just buy everything from my Friendly Neighborhood Showcase and not have to worry about this stuff

Just hope they can get it all released sooner rather than later. Not like I'll have the spare time to paint them, but still...

I really wish some new info would pop up so we'd have something to talk about, but I have the feeling we won't get anything until at least after this week is over.

Orlanth wrote:
Why does what you say conflict with the information on the Inland Revenue website?

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageLibrary_PublicNoticesAndInfoSheets&propertyType=document&columns=1&id=HMCE_CL_000130#P216_18083

Are you talking loopholes the Inland Revenue don't generally want people to know, is your info outdated, are you dealing with industries with exemptions?

It actually doesn't conflict. If you go to the FW website you will see no mention of VAT in the prices.

Pacific below me has it exactly right.

Pacific wrote:
"So, what I think is the interesting point here, and really the crux of the matter, is that there is no requirement for the seller to write either 'price includes VAT' on the sale price description of the item?

So, if the seller doesn't specify this on the sale, then for UK/EU sales they just give that 20% to the taxman. And then presumably it just gets taken as extra profit for any orders outside of the EU/UK?"

However, following a trail - I believe I may just have caught FW out on a separate issue.

fullheadofhair wrote:
It actually doesn't conflict. If you go to the FW website you will see no mention of VAT in the prices.

HM Revenue & Customs website wrote:
Prices in advertisements, catalogues and price lists

Products advertised in outlets, magazines, on the internet, or shown in catalogues, price lists and other literature may be aimed at the consumer, businesses, or both. If they're only meant for the general public, they'll show you a price including VAT. This is a legal requirement.
If they're aimed at both consumers and businesses, they will usually show a VAT inclusive price, but may also show a price without VAT. The VAT inclusive price must be given equal importance, but read carefully to make absolutely certain you understand what price you'll pay.
Prices aimed only at businesses are usually shown with no VAT included. VAT will be charged on top of the price shown.

Now I am not 'arguing with you. I dont challenge your claim to authority. I just want to be clear. It is not foolish of me to look at a tax website from the government for advice on tax issues, or at least I hope its not folish. However there is a direct contradiction in what you are saying and what the website says, highlighted in bold.

With the RAW here the price on Hawks website is de facto VAT inclusive, not VAT irrelevant. elsewhere it says in plain text that the VAT is either paid, or signed off with a 'zero rate' refunding the customer.
So essentially what I quoted from the Inland Revenue about must 'zero point' or we assume you must pay VAT is what they tell you to do because its what they want you to do, not your actual rights on this issue.

I want to know if I can trust the government websites to give me accurate tax information, its important after all. If not can you point to any documentation that back up your claim, after all, and please don't take this the wrong way, I quoted HM Revenue of Customs VAT website, and you are guy on 'THE INTERNETS' who says he worked 15 years in the industry.

I don't see conflict. "No mention of VAT" = "Price including VAT"

If they added VAT on top of listed price, it'd conflict. As it is, I think you're just misunderstanding the website you're quoting.

RiTides wrote:I don't see conflict. "No mention of VAT" = "Price including VAT"

That is how I read it, and how the website implies the law stands.

Price includes VAT so 20% of the money (at current VAT rate) is not the companies, its the taxmans. If the taxman isn't eligible for the monies due to 'zero rating' then the money isn't chargable, if it is charged then the price is not VAT inclusive and thus illegally priced because you haven't included the VAT rating on what you actually end up charging.

RiTides wrote:
If they added VAT on top of listed price, it'd conflict. As it is, I think you're just misunderstanding the website you're quoting.

Except the website 'clearly' says VAT is chargable, unless it is 'zero rated'.
So allegedly Forgeworld (can't speak about Hawk as they might be 'zero rating' and refunding) must pay VAT or 'zero rate' it deducting the 20% in the customers favour.

HM Revenue & Customs website wrote:
VAT on exports of goods to non-EU countries

VAT is a tax charged on goods used in the EU, so if goods are exported outside the EU, VAT isn't charged. You can zero-rate the sale, provided you get and keep evidence of the export, and comply with all other laws. You must also make sure the goods are exported, and you must get the evidence, within three months from the time of sale.

According to the wording, VAT inclusive is the default price, by law, but you can zero rate for non-Eu sales provided.... So if you dont jump through the 'zero rate' hoops, or choose not to then VAT is payable.

HM Revenue & Customs website wrote:
3.3 Conditions for zero-rating direct exports
A supply of goods sent to a destination outside the EC is liable to the zero rate as a direct export where you:
ensure that the goods are exported from the EC within the specified time limits (see paragraph 3.5)
obtain official or commercial evidence of export as appropriate (see paragraphs 6.2 and 6.3) within the specified time limits
keep supplementary evidence of the export transaction (see paragraph 6.4), and
comply with the law and the conditions of this notice.

Zero rating is conditional. So this begs the question what can you do if you don't go through the 'conditions'? You get to keep the money, as fullheadofhair implies is legal, or VAT is chargable as the website implies.

HM Revenue & Customs website wrote:
3.7 What if I can’t meet all the conditions?
If you do not meet all the above conditions the supply cannot be zero-rated as an export and you must account for VAT at the appropriate UK rate (see paragraph 11.2).
It is therefore essential that you establish at the time of sale what type of export documentation will be sent to you to support the zero-rating of your supply.

So if Forgeworld doersnt formally zero rate the goods exported and refund the tax to the customer they must 'account for VAT at the appropriate UK rate'?

What am I missing? This is tax avoidance, or tax evasion, just cant tell which.

Orlanth - I believe FW isn't accounting for the VAT correctly but not for the reasons you are thinking. I am just doing some further research and will post a new thread outside of this one.

Let's get something straight here.

For all of you guys outside of the UK, are you really paying for the full price of GBP listed on the website?

If so that is illegal.

By the way guys, might be an idea to open up another general thread on this in Dakka Discussions?

Title it, "Should we sue Forgeworld?" That should get some views.

OT...nothing's happened.

Pacific wrote:
By the way guys, might be an idea to open up another general thread on this in Dakka Discussions?

Yes, please! And link to it from here, so all further general VAT discussion can go there, and we can use this one solely for DzC talk.

So about the rules?

I just jumped to this page (42 on my list), and still no talk of rules.

Again, I got really burned on similar games like Dystopian Wars with flawed rules and lackluster support, despite the awesome minis.

Vertrucio wrote:So about the rules?

I just jumped to this page (42 on my list), and still no talk of rules.

Again, I got really burned on similar games like Dystopian Wars with flawed rules and lackluster support, despite the awesome minis.

Look at page 40. More precisely : http://theshellcase.co.uk/2012/06/24/a-first-look-at-drop-zone-commander/

It looks like the rules will be good, from what we see it values manoeuver, uses units with lobsided capabilities in manoeuver.
And divides the ability to apply firepower alot like the RTS strategy game genre does so that units have clear field rioles and are either inadequate or incapable of performing outside said roles.

the result will be a game that ebncourages tactical play and punishes a lack of foresight.

How balanced is it in terms of abilities and points costs, we don't know, but it appears that Hawk are trying to get it right rather than just spew out a ruleset and let the customer swallow the imbalances like GW so often do.

While I appreciate that the Shell Case has done those write ups, I don't think they're far enough removed from the designer of the game to really provide a 'fair' assessment of the game/rules.

I'm seeing this a lot. Too many people are referring to Dave and not Hawk Wargames; because of this personalization of the company, I think too many people are letting the fact that this is a one guy operation foster a perceived kinship with him, thusly colouring their objectivity of the product.

Despite the fact that I've bought in, the lack of transparency continues to frustrate me regarding this game, particularly when the game and miniatures are scheduled to ship in less than a month.

There is more to look at:

http://politicaldice.6sided.net/2012/06/27/dropzone-commander-first-look-reviews/

This includes links to the 6 Inch Move review 'hidden' in the review already linked to in The Shellcase.
Many here comments on The Shellcases review and In suspect not seeing the 6 Inch Move Review linked within, which said different stuff.
The Shellcase have written a second review with more detail.

I will link all three seperatelty here:

Shellcase, review as linked on Page 40 here
Six Inch Move 'overlooked' review
Shellcase, second review

This might sate your thirst for Dropzone Commander info for a few more minutes at least.

Have you noticed similarities between our behaviour here and junkies. Next we will be snorting the new improved break resistant resin.

Pretty sure I'm the one that prompted Shell Cases' second review; he was getting annoyed with me posting comments .

I don't know that the 6 inch move really belays any concerns either. I mean, they don't really say ANYTHING about the rules; in that respect, I think Shell Case did a much better job.

It's all good; like I said, I've bought in. I'd still like to know a bit more information that doesn't simply seem like lip service, ya know?

Yeah. I agree. I. Want. THE RULES!!!

Wait.
A month.
then BUY THEM.