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Charax wrote:Wait.
A month.
then BUY THEM.

Thanks for the constructive addition to the conversation. People interested in a more in-depth look at the rules are not unjustified, nor is it greedy, nor is it unreasonable.

People haraunging those that are more interested in rules before they plunk down their money (again, reiterated for about the 5th time in this thread, because the product will most probably be limited off the bat) and providing responses like this are counter-productive and add nothing.

Wanting a more in-depth look at the rules when they aren't finished, for free (yes, for free, because otherwise that would violate the "before you plunk down money" part), a month before release is a *tad* on the greedy, unreasonable side. You don't see such demands of Infinity, or 40K, or pretty much any other game.

I mean, it's pretty standard procedure - if you want rules for a game, generally you buy the book, then you can get all the depth you want.

I can understand preferring a PDF - hell, I prefer PDFs, I may as well have a monthly direct debit to DriveThruRPG, but it's still the exception rather than the rule, and I certainly don't expect a PDF version to be available before the book.

If you're "interested in rules before you plunk down money", then there's only a certain degree of information you're going to get, and that degree is basically what you got through ShellCase (given that they said there were things they were asked not to reveal). Generally it goes "Plunk down money to get rules, then decide if you want the models", there's nothing unreasonable about that.

So "Wait a month and buy the rules" is basically the best solution you currently have to "I want the rules before I buy the models" as it's your only source of the rules.

as for "adding nothing", what precisely is

Kurce wrote:Yeah. I agree. I. Want. THE RULES!!!

adding to anything? Are Hawk Wargames going to turn round and go "Well, somebody's typing in caps, he must mean business, better get these incomplete rules out a month before release to satisfy him"

No. Nothing will change because of that, nothing has been "added", at least I'm trying to manage expectations.

Accidental Double Post.

Let the 40k rules tide you over, then in a month or so when we've found all the loophopes in them, the DzC ones will probably look waterproof.

Sheer genius on their part

RiTides wrote:Let the 40k rules tide you over, then in a month or so when we've found all the loophopes in them, the DzC ones will probably look waterproof.

Sheer genius on their part

Yet, it will still be much easier for me to find new GW products, and I wont have to buy an entire army to start it up. I'll also still have loads of friends playing 40k. I can't say any of these three things about DzC right now (and again, I've got a preorder in despite all my reservations)

I cant afford right now, £220 is a lot, and I wont settle for less. I would rather save up and buy than buy in bits and pay more.

The exception being the KR case. I might get one, but to seperate order costs £2 more, wheras splitting the miniatures will cost far more than that.

Fed up with 40K and cant wait to get my Dropzone Commander preorders, all 4 starters and rules. What can I say, my friends are cheap so I need to buy for 3 people.

Very amused by all the whiners who want to see the rules NOW. Seems as if a lot are too scared to commit, but also scared to "lose out" in case of a good thing. Talk about having your cake and eating it.

In the meantime, I have been looking at terrain options. Found a brand new (coincidence?) 10mm pdf on drivethru. Also decided to try some buildings from fieldworks.

The problem is that you can pre-order but people generally want to know what they are buying, i.e. whether the stuf bought is enough for a decent game and whether they will get an even loadout.

Already some generall point costs would help. But we do have nil information on the rules.

I understand that, but according to the information currently available a starter should give you a decent small game and surely it is not too much to order a starter and then fill it out later with whatever you are missing?

It seems to me that all units in the starter are useful or even necessary. Customization and enhancement can happen after a few games. Ordering a starter seems to me like a no risk option.

If however people are worried that they will be getting less "bang for their buck" if they order one faction as opposed to another, then I have no sympathy. That is just munchkinism.

Rat wrote:I understand that, but according to the information currently available a starter should give you a decent small game and surely it is not too much to order a starter and then fill it out later with whatever you are missing?

It seems to me that all units in the starter are useful or even necessary. Customization and enhancement can happen after a few games. Ordering a starter seems to me like a no risk option.

If however people are worried that they will be getting less "bang for their buck" if they order one faction as opposed to another, then I have no sympathy. That is just munchkinism.

I approve Rats statement on munchkinism. It does not matter at this time simply because there will be no tournaments for this for at least 4 months after it releases.

Sigh...

According to Hawk Wargames the sets are pointswise not even, i.e. some have considerably more points than others Countwise they should be similar.

Now, if I buy two starter sets, I prefer to have equal amounts of points.

At the moment I have two order two times to get evened out sets.

Either I order the book and later the sets, or the book and sets and later the missing minis. Either way I have to pay uneccessary shipping fees, since only orders above 100 Pounds are shipping free.

I'd rather have more value in the sets than equal points, though...

So you are bitching about the extra shipping for the minis necessary to balance the armies?

Sheesh ...

Perhaps because I live in South Africa and know that I pay an arm and a leg for my premium hobby anyway, I am not so fickle.

Not sure what your plans are for terrain.

Rat wrote:
It seems to me that all units in the starter are useful or even necessary. Customization and enhancement can happen after a few games. Ordering a starter seems to me like a no risk option.

\

"Seems to me." Well that sounds concrete!

Truth of the matter is that you have no idea how much the point costs will be for each of the starters. Hawk has stated they aren't equal. It's as simple as that.

Heaven forbid people want to have a bit more specifics on what they're buying into. I mean, how unreasonable is that!

If you are going to use everything in the starter, what is the risk in buying it?

Unless as I said you want to min max to get the "best faction for the price"

You mean, beyond disliking the ruleset, right?

Then wait until after the rules are released.

Really simple.

CinceyDooley I really wouldn't worry about it too much. Even if they are not the same amount in points, I'm sure they will be comparable and not a stupid level of difference between them to the point where they will be unplayable.

Going on Infinity for instance, there is some difference in points values between the starter sets. But practically it makes little difference; one of you either gets another blister pack, or the higher value just removes a model or two from the game.

I think you guys need to take a step back and realize you're nerd-raging about a game. This is not a big deal,rules will come out, its just a matter of time. I'm excited about this one also, but where is all the anger coming from? In the grand scheme of things, the rules for the game not being released when YOU want them to, is not anything to get mad about. It will get here when it gets here.

edit(and yes, the nerd rage was enough to make me register just to post)

More on topic this time.

Does anyone have any ideas on sourcing terrain to coincide with getting their minis? I mentioned some pdf on drivethru and fieldworks buildings.

I am a lazy sob and not keen on building my own.

http://www.kerrandking.co.uk/

http://shop.strato.de/epages/62531443.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62531443/Categories/6/7/72

http://www.hovelsltd.co.uk/10mmrange.htm

http://www.gaugemaster.com/search_results.asp?searchstring=scale~~%ACn%AC~~scale%20category~~1229~~category%20brand~~667~~brand&style=&andor=&method=kws&strType=¤tpage=1

Rat wrote:More on topic this time.

Does anyone have any ideas on sourcing terrain to coincide with getting their minis? I mentioned some pdf on drivethru and fieldworks buildings.

I am a lazy sob and not keen on building my own.

I did a fair bit of research on that subject, and posted it a few pages back on this thread.

Page 36

Problem is that it's 10mm, which is like, in between the two more popular sizes of 6mm and 15mm, so there's not a TON of stuff specifically fit to scale. Further, most of the 15mm wargaming is historical, so its hard to find anything appropriately sci fi.

I agree that some of those PDF files are probably, at this point, the way to go until Hawk deigns to let us know about their terrain plans, which based on the Shell Case write up, sound expansive (and probably expensive).

I know there are a few sites that do solid 6mm ruins/rubble designed for Epic 40k, which may work. The soldiers will appear a bit large when compared to buildings, but the ships and walkers will probably feel less out of scale

hmmm ..

still keen on the ruined buildings at http://www.fieldworks.org.uk/10and12mm.htm

especially the department store

I dont like them, some had potential of they were thinner. They look so crude its like they were made from slabs of clay or ancient henges.

Just because its war torn doesn't mean it has to have a neolithic roof.

cincydooley wrote:

Rat wrote:
It seems to me that all units in the starter are useful or even necessary. Customization and enhancement can happen after a few games. Ordering a starter seems to me like a no risk option.

\

"Seems to me." Well that sounds concrete!

Truth of the matter is that you have no idea how much the point costs will be for each of the starters. Hawk has stated they aren't equal. It's as simple as that.

Heaven forbid people want to have a bit more specifics on what they're buying into. I mean, how unreasonable is that!

Then heaven forbid you wait a couple of weeks and then ask someone

Let me reiterate that I've preordered a large starter. With that being said, I don't think it's unreasonable to want to see a bit more this close to the end of the pre-order period.

The issue with "waiting a week and asking someone" is, by that time, your pre-order window will have closed and you no longer have the guarantee that you A) will receive models you order in a timely manner, or B) will be able to order any at all.

My PROBLEM, is that there are plenty of folks waiting for rules before buying in. I have faith the rules will be good, but what happens if there are 300 people that wanted to wait for rules, get the rules and like them, then go to order and are unable to get anything due to an innacurate demand estimation. That's a $60,000 shortsighted mistake.

Those same 300, by the way, only spent 1/6 of that on the one time rulebook purchase.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you're a new company producing minitures exclusive to your own rules, there's no reason NOT to release your rules early, and for free. That's not to say I'm not willing to pay for them (I am) but your money isn't coming from the rulebook. For a new game, not having (at the very least) quickstart rules available is incredibly short sighted and, IMO, poorly planned.

there's plenty of reason not to release the rules for free....the man spent time on the rules and deserves to be compensated for that time by being paid for it. I would imagine that's basic economics. And these figures you're coming up with about 300 people not being able to buy models because they waited for rules is based on waaaay to many assumptions for it to hold any water. I realize you want the rules, but using your opinion on how events are going to play out (waiting for rules then not being able to get mini's) and how the company should be run (releasing rules for free),are invalid arguments, and to top it all off arent going to change a thing. This thread is supposed to be for news about dzc, not people bitching about how hawk wargames is hurting themselves ( which you have no proof of). It's not like release is a year away, all the ill informed whining is eating valuable space that is meant for dzc news/rumors.

nate2010 wrote:there's plenty of reason not to release the rules for free....the man spent time on the rules and deserves to be compensated for that time by being paid for it. I would imagine that's basic economics. And these figures you're coming up with about 300 people not being able to buy models because they waited for rules is based on waaaay to many assumptions for it to hold any water. I realize you want the rules, but using your opinion on how events are going to play out (waiting for rules then not being able to get mini's) and how the company should be run (releasing rules for free),are invalid arguments, and to top it all off arent going to change a thing. This thread is supposed to be for news about dzc, not people bitching about how hawk wargames is hurting themselves ( which you have no proof of). It's not like release is a year away, all the ill informed whining is eating valuable space that is meant for dzc news/rumors.

Well, the "basic economics" would disagree and argue that establishing someone as a buyer of the miniatures (which is where the brunt of the income will come from) is more valuable than selling them a one-time rule set. I would imagine you're not familiar with "basic economics" if that's really what you think.

The 300 people was a hypothetical example. Based on my order #, there are at least 1200 people that have pre-ordered from Hawk (I imagine this could be skewed due to online shops and LGSs ordering) but to say it "doesn't hold water" is ignorant. If there are 300 people waiting for rules (1/4 of the pre-order total, a perfectly reasonable number) and, by Hawks own admission, they won't be guaranteed a date on delivery if they dont meet the pre-order date, then it is a huge risk to take monetarily. We're a fickle, rapidly moving bunch. If 100 of those people get impatient because they can't get their minis right away after deciding they like the rules, then thats still $20K in lost income. That's not a small number for a start up company. Despite the fact that the scenario is hypothetical, it doesn't make it any less likely or any less realistic.

I'm sure you'll state TLDR, but we've discussed at length precedents set by other small miniatures manufacturers that DO release their rules for free (hell, Reaper just released a free rule set for some new western minis) in order to drive the sale of their money maker, the miniatures.

This thread has become the De Facto DzC thread, so get over yourself. It continues to be news because we continue to have little to no new information coming out from Hawk.

CincyDooley, please!! I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your posts..

You have made your position very clear in about 40 comments in this thread, I'm sure there will be something written here the moment anyone hears anything!!

Now everyone please stop poking the poor guy in his exposed nerve..!

Regarding terrain, not sure if this has been mentioned yet but they say this on the website:

Hawk Wargames will be producing a modular, tile based resin scenery system. All the buildings you see on this site were developed by us! These are currently going into full production moulds, and will be available later this year.

We will also be producing a range of card buildings, which will make cheap, table covering cities a reality! Keep an eye out on our news section for updates.

Looking at the first page of this thread, some of that terrain looks incredible! Just about finished an Infinity table off, I can feel another project coming on..