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as a baseline troop do you guys think scions are worth 4 pts over a basic guardsman?

i was thinking of going guard with some tempestus thrown in but im really thinking of switching it and going tempestus with some guard thrown in... lol.

i was also wondering about taurox prime vs. the chimera.
chimera has one more toughness but the prime seems to be armed better. im leaning towards the prime.

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
It is unfortunate that they're so fragile. On the one hand I guess we can only expect so much for 20 points, on the other hand it literally doesn't have a weapon and can't move, surely it could be bumped up to T5 or given a 3+ save.

It's a giant glass searchlight. Throw a rock at it and it will break and be useless...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, moving a vehicle kinda defeats the point if you take a -1 to hit.

Still waiting for my book. How fragile are they exactly. And do they hit automatically or require a hit roll like marker lights?

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
It is unfortunate that they're so fragile. On the one hand I guess we can only expect so much for 20 points, on the other hand it literally doesn't have a weapon and can't move, surely it could be bumped up to T5 or given a 3+ save.

It's a giant glass searchlight. Throw a rock at it and it will break and be useless...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, moving a vehicle kinda defeats the point if you take a -1 to hit.

Still waiting for my book. How fragile are they exactly. And do they hit automatically or require a hit roll like marker lights?

T4 W3 Sv4+, no other defenses. Searchlights hit automatically.

Not fluffy at face value but wondering whether Dkok grenadiers or engineers in a valkyrie would make nice stand ins for assault scions? Not got the new index yet so can't way up the options but from what I've seen key words allows them to ride and be taken in a detachment with other guard flyers, could even chuck in priests and quarter masters to beef them up? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick here

If the sabre searchlights can stack then 50 conscripts with FRFSRF hitting in 2+ could be deadly!

The FW plasma gun has got to be a typo, same point cost but does 3w on supercharge?

The artillery batteries are not vehicles so therefore gets +1 save with toe in cover?

Also are the FW writers dumb? The batteries are like exactly the same as the carriages but does not require crew member tax so therefore a lot cheaper. Makes no sense

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
The FW plasma gun has got to be a typo, same point cost but does 3w on supercharge?

The artillery batteries are not vehicles so therefore gets +1 save with toe in cover?

Also are the FW writers dumb? The batteries are like exactly the same as the carriages but does not require crew member tax so therefore a lot cheaper. Makes no sense

The batteries lack the Infantry keyword and so do not get cover benefits just for being in it.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
The FW plasma gun has got to be a typo, same point cost but does 3w on supercharge?

Most likely. Only the AM and Elysian ones have D3, DKoK and R&H ones do not.

The artillery batteries are not vehicles so therefore gets +1 save with toe in cover?

Don't exactly know the terrain rules, but most of the Battlefield Terrain ones say that infantry units gain if every model is inside, and otherwise only if every model is 50% obscured.

Also are the FW writers dumb? The batteries are like exactly the same as the carriages but does not require crew member tax so therefore a lot cheaper. Makes no sense

The crew can shoot their lasguns, so someone thought that it warrants an extra cost. They are also technically their own unit, just that they have to be within 3" of the artillery piece. And get cover like Unit1126PLL said.

Heavy Carriages are Vehicles even if their retinue of guardsmen are infantry. Weapon itself doesnt get save unless its 50% hidden by terrain.

Batteries also have advantage of able to fire even if tied to close combat.

(Earthshaker) Batteries are just better than their carriage variants.

Blightstar wrote:
Heavy Carriages are Vehicles even if their retinue of guardsmen are infantry. Weapon itself doesnt get save unless its 50% hidden by terrain.

Where are you guys getting this 50% hidden to get cover from? BRB pg 181 just says units doesn't specify keywords.

Col_Caffran wrote:

Blightstar wrote:
Heavy Carriages are Vehicles even if their retinue of guardsmen are infantry. Weapon itself doesnt get save unless its 50% hidden by terrain.

Where are you guys getting this 50% hidden to get cover from? BRB pg 181 just says units doesn't specify keywords.

From pg.248 Battlefield Terrain.

Oops that's my mistake.

Anyways I just don't think why they even have the carriages any more. The batteries are just far superior and doesn't degrade when wounded.

Blightstar wrote:

(Earthshaker) Batteries are just better than their carriage variants.

Maybe, but this is where you can insist on WYSIWYG because the Earthshaker Platform is out of production.

 Aenarian wrote:

Blightstar wrote:

(Earthshaker) Batteries are just better than their carriage variants.

Maybe, but this is where you can insist on WYSIWYG because the Earthshaker Platform is out of production.

Put basilisk on board, say engine is broken and it is out of bolter ammo.

WYSIWYG. Well, may be pushing it (-:

Speaking of the basilisk it is only 28 points more than a battery, 4 more wounds, comes with a HB and most importantly is mobile. The con is that it will degrade, so I don't if the battery are worth taking compare to a regular basilisk?

28 pts is quite a lot when you are only talking about a 108 point unit. If you can save 20% off a unit but keep the same main gun, then you can fit a lot more into a list. You don't really want to move a basilisk anyway.

Fear of degraging before you unleash your payload? Worry not anymore! Just take Manticore Batteries and unleash all 4 missiles on a single turn!

Yeah. They kinda forgot the clause "cant fire more than one missile per turn" so you fire all 4. They are Heavy D6 S9 -3 Dd6 and only 90pts per one and in squadrons of 3. Drawback is that they cant move and their missiles need LOS.

But still. Pretty bursty firepower.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

Blightstar wrote:

(Earthshaker) Batteries are just better than their carriage variants.

Maybe, but this is where you can insist on WYSIWYG because the Earthshaker Platform is out of production.

Put basilisk on board, say engine is broken and it is out of bolter ammo.

WYSIWYG. Well, may be pushing it (-:

As long as the gun and floor is not glued in it can slide in and out of the basilisk. 1 magnet, cut some plastic, and glue some bits onto it. My home made version only took a couple of hours to make.

broxus wrote:
Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.

Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers, in squads of 3, have performed extremely well for me.

edit: They are surprisingly survivable too. T5 (or is it 6?) with 6 wounds each and a 4+ is rather survivable against small arms, and you should use them as bullies anyway. They totally massacre MEQS and below. Yes they will vanish to real antitank guns, but I found nobody wants to shoot at the lowly sentinel with their big guns. Then, when they are parked in front of some isolated troop squad unleashing HFs it begins to sink in that that troop squad is basically unable to hurt them back. They can't kill them quickly with small arms shooting, they can't charge them due to the overwatch, and they can't survive 3 HFs hosing them down. Great little unit and the scout move is wonderful.

Elysian CS are 2 points less than scions each but has a 5+ instead of 4+, hmmm tough choice.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Elysian CS are 2 points less than scions each but has a 5+ instead of 4+, hmmm tough choice.

No choice really. Both units die of you give them a mean look so going cheaper is not bad choice. Also currently Elysian plasmaguns are D3 instead of D2. Clear winners in my book.

Anyone able to do a quick run-down of the Elysian list? Lots of Discussion of the DKoK (awesome), but really interested in some thoughts on validity of our fly boys. Have my index ordered, but haven't seen the list as a whole yet.

-Are there snipers worth taking? Do they have the + range spotters in the rules?
-Are there mortar squads identical to AM? Cost more perhaps?
-Can there Valkyries be put into reserve and/or "deep strike"?
-Do they have unique orders? Do they get any orders at all?

Not sure how a mass of Vendettas/Vultures/Valkyries will do now. They don't seem overly hard to take down if you want to hit well. Although dropping in a OotF down next to a hovering Vendetta seems like it can do some real work. Vultures don't even seem to need that support with 40 shots a piece punisher cannons.

Thoughts?

Edit: Most important question: Do Elysians get orders (officially) in index?

Cheers

broxus wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

broxus wrote:
Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.

I would just keep them as cheap as possible. I don't find any of the options particularly appealing, with them costing between 45-60 for a single heavy weapon. Almost any kind of fire support is better performed by other units (HWTs with orders, or tanks for survivability) in my opinion. But if you have extra points and can spend an additional 5-10 per Sentinel, sure, go for what you need to complement your other forces.

The worst part is even the cheapest option for weapons is 10pts. To get a lascannon is only 10pts more. I have heard of people using the scout sentinel w/heavy flames to move into position and flame things first thing. The problem I see with that concept is I expect to never get first turn and plan to always go second to to my number of units. A scout sentinel is pretty useless as it will die in seconds to every gun. This leads me to believe that putting a gun on them that can use a range advantage seems the way to go. I am just not sure which weapon I should use. Multi lasers and auto cannons are terrible which leads me to choose from lascannons, missile launchers, and plasma cannons.

Take an Armoured Sentinel, put a lascannon on it, put it on the flanks, preferably in cover, extending your 9" deep strike denial bubble. Fills your fast attack slots for the Brigade Detachement, is much more survivable than an entire lascannon heavy weapon squad (which WILL get pasted if your enemy gets first turn, they are a supremely easy to kill, high priority 72 points target), particularly in cover, isn't easy killpoint/first blood bait, extends your deep strike denial bubble quite nicely and can be used as a quite mobile and quite decent close combat intercept/blocking unit if things go south. Take potshots with the lascannon and it should earn it's points back quite well. Plasma Cannon is another good pick, though our infantry does cover plasma needs quite well already. Sure, it ain't uber stronk Scion command squad levels of point efficient but it has it's role (particularly filling FA slots) and the performance for the price is still not a problem if you squeeze in one or two even in a tournament list, particularly because the model is frickin awesome. If you aren't going all out tournament list then there is no reason not to take one or two, they are viable and not a waste of points like e.g. a LR Exterminator.
Leave off any upgrades though, particularly the chainsaw (no, -1 AP isn't worth 3 points on a model which hits on 4+ and has only one attack, buy 1 1/2 stormbolters for your tanks or 1pt bolters for three your squad sergeants instead).

Scout Sentinels with Flamer are 8 points cheaper and good too, but WILL die faster and will not make their points back or have sufficient impact in every match, particularly if the enemy goes first. Try to get it into cover with the scout move if you can.

Forget Multilasers, they are dead until they get a better profile or a massive point reduction (4 or 5 points at most) as they are simply not worth it with D1 and no AP modifier. Take a Heavy Bolter instead if you can or upgrade to a lascannon.

So how about a LC Tauros venator instead of a LC Armored sentinel?

26pts more gets you same toughness and wounds, a 4+ armor, 7 more inches of movement, a second lascannon and ignoring the -1 to hit for moving, and a 5+ invuln if it moves 10+ inches.

Ir0njack wrote:Definitely watching this, i love indepth examinations like this. Stellar job!

thanks!

Trickstick wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
For those interested, I've started a thread discussing every option and unit available to the AM. It's similar to a codex review, only, you know, without the codex!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/730110.page#9449747

I did rather like your 3.5 Codex review back in the day.

It was a labor of love, I'm glad you enjoyed it! But it was actually the 5th edition codex, not the 3.5 one.

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:- In the Missile Launcher entry you wrote that it's 15 points which makes it a questionable pick compared to the 20 point lascannon. Actually the ML costs 20 points as well on all AM units (and is as expensive as a Lascannon in every faction that can take them AFAIR)
- Gotta change the "Heavy flamer is priced between ML and lascannon" bit as well.

Otherwise a nice read and informative, looking forward to the unit breakdowns .

Yeah, somebody in the thread pointed out the 15pt thing. Proofreading is not my strong suit

thanks for the other useage as well, I might have missed it.

 Polonius wrote:
It was a labor of love, I'm glad you enjoyed it! But it was actually the 5th edition codex, not the 3.5 one.

Fair enough. I'm probably getting mixed up, it was ages ago I guess. I do remember your review though, was pretty useful.

Blightstar wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Elysian CS are 2 points less than scions each but has a 5+ instead of 4+, hmmm tough choice.

No choice really. Both units die of you give them a mean look so going cheaper is not bad choice. Also currently Elysian plasmaguns are D3 instead of D2. Clear winners in my book.

I guess the only downside is Elysians can't take Taurox Prime

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

broxus wrote:
Quick question how are people running sentinels? Are they using the scout or armored version and what weapons are being used? I need to field two to fill out my brigade detachment.

Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers, in squads of 3, have performed extremely well for me.

edit: They are surprisingly survivable too. T5 (or is it 6?) with 6 wounds each and a 4+ is rather survivable against small arms, and you should use them as bullies anyway. They totally massacre MEQS and below. Yes they will vanish to real antitank guns, but I found nobody wants to shoot at the lowly sentinel with their big guns. Then, when they are parked in front of some isolated troop squad unleashing HFs it begins to sink in that that troop squad is basically unable to hurt them back. They can't kill them quickly with small arms shooting, they can't charge them due to the overwatch, and they can't survive 3 HFs hosing them down. Great little unit and the scout move is wonderful.

Quick question how do you use them in a game? It seems you will always go second so you don't want to push them to far forward since they will become an easy victory point. Can they stay in units of 3 or must they split apart and become separate units?

broxus wrote:
Quick question how do you use them in a game? It seems you will always go second so you don't want to push them to far forward since they will become an easy victory point. Can they stay in units of 3 or must they split apart and become separate units?

Sentinels stay as a unit. I guess you want to use their scout move to push forward into cover or hide out of los. Games seem to need more los blocking terrain than in 7th, which could help.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Blightstar wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Elysian CS are 2 points less than scions each but has a 5+ instead of 4+, hmmm tough choice.

No choice really. Both units die of you give them a mean look so going cheaper is not bad choice. Also currently Elysian plasmaguns are D3 instead of D2. Clear winners in my book.

I guess the only downside is Elysians can't take Taurox Prime

They actually can just fine. Elysians can also take drop pods, rhinoes and every other imperial dedicated transport. They cant just ride in any of them.