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beautiful interior space , it very much reminds me of rivet city


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beautiful interior space , it very much reminds me of rivet city


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beautiful interior space , it very much reminds me of rivet city

Thanks Neil! I must have done it right then!

Now we're gonna need a bigger boot. Very nice Dave.

Thanks Galorn.

Back to the thing that is frustrating me more than anything right now, How can people believe a lie when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

I found a Psychological paper http://faculty.virginia.edu/haidtlab/jost.glaser.political-conservatism-as-motivated-social-cog.pdf it's a long read, but enlightening in the sense that truth doesn't seem to matter to these people. It includes many theories, but this one was interesting.

Social Dominance Theory
Unlike theories that seek to explain conservatism with reference to affective differences arising from parenting styles or childhood socialization, social dominance theory emphasizes evolutionary and societal factors as determinants of politically conservative (or“hierarchy-enhancing”) orientations. According to social dominance theory, human societies strive to minimize group conflict by developing ideological belief systems that justify the hegemony of some groups over others (Pratto, 1999; Pratto et al., 1994; Sidanius,1993; Sidanius & Pratto, 1999; Sidanius et al., 1996). This is achieved through the promulgation of various “legitimizing myths” such as the following: (a) “paternalistic myths,” which assert that dominant groups are needed to lead and take care of subordinate groups, who are incapable of leading and taking care of themselves; (b) “reciprocal myths,” which claim that a symbiotic relationship exists between dominant and subordinate groups and that both groups help each other; and (c) “sacred myths,” which allege that positions of dominance and subordination are determined by God or some other divine right (see Sidanius, 1993, pp. 207–209). Ideological devices such as these are inherently conservative in content because they seek to preserve existing hierarchies of status, power, and wealth and to prevent qualitative social change (e.g., Sidanius & Pratto, 1999).


So now that I understand the reasons behind group-think, I'm really just more hopeless about the situation.
As empirical truths are my only goal in this quest, I also need to ensure that I'm not doing the same thing by seeking out justifications for my own beliefs.
This effectively puts me into the political category of "Anarchist" by the current right vs. left struggle, because I choose to think for myself.

"A strange game, the only winning move is not to play"

Amazing fallout stuff!!

Thanks Weets!

Dave, I personally prefer to stay out of politics a far as I can as this is obviously the dirtiest thing humanity created but all theories aside (for they are just attempts to give some shape and structure to what's already there) peoples tendency to follow might be humanities only salvation by a long shot. Don't know if I can explain myself correctly on such difficult topic in a foreign language but I'll try.
One of the first things they've been teaching me and other young psychologists is that whenever personality is involved there is no such thing as empirical truth. For each of us exist in a realty determined by many factors of it's own physiology and psyche and blah blah blah. As specialists we were supposed to know all the crowd control mechanisms used in our society and to be resistant, to think independently and out of the box.
Seemed like a good thing... But not until at the third year of study I was charged to lead the group of nearly 15 such "independents"... You can't imagine what a pain it was to make this lot do ANYTHING together... They just can't submit, can't be ordered, don't believe in any truth beyond their own... Especially women...
I leave it to you to imagine what our world would be if most of people where like that...

PS
I absolutely love the boat! Any plans for a name?

I can see your point Storag, and I respect it, but the issues I am talking about can and do have empirical facts behind them, they aren't philosophical differences as much as provable facts, they are often assumed to be true or false based on one's group associations. Assuming people do not have the time and/or inclination to endlessly research and cross-reference these facts, they tend to ask "What does my group believe?" and then just endlessly regurgitate rhetoric. When you try to correct a mis-stated fact (already researched and cross-referenced), instead of enlightening or educating them like you would think, it just invokes a defense mechanism of backlash and anger because they feel you are attacking their belief system rather than trying to help them understand. It's motivated reasoning that to me, looks exactly like the motivated reasoning that took hold in Bavaria (my ancestral home-most people that settled the midwest part of the US were immigrants from Bavaria mid 1800s) in the 1920s. Considering the average education level of people of the time, I can certainly see why they would look to their leaders with trust in an uncertain time, but this is the 21st Century, the information age, It's not as if the truth is hidden deep in a Government underground bunker filing cabinet somewhere nowadays, facts can be instantly verified or denied by anyone from multiple sources at the speed of light. However, my "people" can't seem to break free from their ancestral tendencies to mob-up into the safety of groups and accept indoctrination openly.


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..And thanks, the Boat is The SeaView from the 1961 film Voyage to the bottom of the sea"


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LOL..Apparently, 50 years ago, a privately-owned Nuclear-powered/Nuclear-armed submarine was a good idea LOL

There's an easy way to identify people who have accepted incorrect facts and incorporated them into their belief system.

Ask them "Why do you believe that?"

If they can give an explanation other than "Just because, so and so told me or I just do" then they've probably at least actually though about the issue. Even if I don't agree with their opinion, at least they've thought about it and aren't just regurgitating crap they heard from someone else.

lovley discussion.... i really mean it!

the mere fact that you are tagged with an a starsprangled banner is for me a sign of hope...not everything is set for destruction then...as long as people like you... even if they are few still live in that country of yours hope is not for naught...

and... some people have the greatest fear to be responsible for themselves... thus they talk and act like strong and loud people that seem to be...in a certain light... to be able to be in charge...

humans are a sorry species... really... so we have to take pitty in ourselves... but it is like that fictional character baron münchhausen.... in one of his stories...he fell into a swamp... long story short... he pulled himself out of this sucking hole and his horse too by pulling on his own ponytail...yeah... right so if we take pitty in humanity we also need to commit a certain münchausen deed....because atm there is no one else here beside humanity that could help us out of that misery we build up on a daily basis...

(i hope this was fitting for the current discussion... the small paragraph was rather hard to follow )

Thanks Vik, I was rambling a bit there in that paragraph, I know. LL, you are right, but it goes beyond that in my conversations lately. I ask "Why do you believe that", and they already have 2 or 3 reasons prepared for the answer, but all 3 reasons are based off of some other untruth or rhetoric. For instance, the Constitution of the United States spells out clearly what the requirements are to be a US Citizen. not considering naturalization (where you study, take a test, and become a US Citizen legally). I won't copy and paste the whole thing here, but basically if you are Born in the US, you are a citizen. If you are born abroad to US Citizen Parents, you are a US Citizen. Plain and simple right?

The Authoritarians among us have been making what we call the "Birther" argument against President Obama, claiming that he is not a US Citizen, in a pathetic attempt to De-legitimize his presidency. The Empirical facts are: 1. The Constitution clearly explains both the requirements for Citizenship and Presidency. 2. Hawaii became a State in 1959 3. Barack Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961.

This argument is so intellectually lazy, most educated people will just flat-out refuse to engage in conversation with people about it. But it's amazing how many people keep regurgitating it.

I think those are sides of one coin... Our better say prism? We are talking about very complex matter here, involving many aspects of group and individual psychology. And I think no single theory can hope to describe our explain it to it's fullest. One thing we should consider is internalization of information. When we are faced by some info, no matter how true it is, our brain need time to, as somesay "sleep" with it - time to process and find a place for that fact in the hierarchy and structure of personality. After that, if the fact is somewhat accepted, it becomes a part of ourselves much as parts of our body do. And the longer it's been there and the more important place it occupies - the bigger is the problem. So from the psychological perspective when you approach someone and say; "hey bro, what you knew is false, go read this and that and figure out how things really are" is like saying "your ass is too fat, go to the gym and lose some weight" and no matter how justified your comment is you'll face the reaction varying from suppressed uncomfort (if the person is intelligent and with stable self-concept) to fear, hatred and rage (if the person is ignorant or somehow unstable). Here we encounter the concept of the zone of comfort and it is a well known fact that to comprehend something new the person should be out of that personal zone. Sadly few can do it by choice :( what I'm trying to say that we can accuse people of being ignorant no more that staying out of physical shape.

hawaii joined in on the fun not before 1959? i never knew...wow... and well i don´t know if it is really that important who is leading a country... obama is not alone... but i guess that is me speaking as a german... here you don´t vote for candidate but for the party... and the party chooses the candidate... not that this is any way more fair than the other way round...

i think trying to get rid of obama this way is really a testemony of the oposing forces is a lack of almost everything.... if they need to rely on such tactics there are no clever people in with these "gangs"...

You are right again Storag, I see that too, no one wants to be wrong. At one time, I fell for the GOP Party line as well, too ignorant to see past my own nose, I truly believed I was justified in those beliefs simply because everyone around me agreed with it. What changed me was education, and you are right, I had to be ready to make that change myself. Is there any point in even having the discussion with those friends and family if anything I say is met with hostility?

Vik, do you think the irrational backlash and petty attempts at discrediting Obama is a sign that those opponents are desperate and have nothing left but propaganda to spew?

Vik, do you think the irrational backlash and petty attempts at discrediting Obama is a sign that those opponents are desperate and have nothing left but propaganda to spew?

that was the point i was trying to make... here we get a lot of news from your side of the ocean... there are fresher peeps waiting to have the old farts die out of action...(could go faster for my own opinion ) and this fact is making the old grunts desperate and afraid... thus they resort to cheating, lying and downright being embarrising donkey... maybe mitten is just the proverbial icing of a really smelly and brownish cake that has been baking in the sun the last two decades (just an estimated amount of time on my part...) as i remember the US to be a not so short sighted and ruled by old men country like it is today... so we have to hope for the ruling class of today to die out of old age... stands to reason... these old farts have to cease some day...

Amazing fallout diorama there! Love that game, played it a ridiculous amount of hours and with extreme levels of modding its sweet.

Is this gonna be for 40k games or RPGs?

Yeah well, we call them the "Baby Boomers" here. The Generation that was born after WW2 when all the guys came back home, my parents generation, the same ones who were sent to Vietnam against their will, made the social changes of the 60s , and fought for the Civil Rights movement. I am proud of what those people did before I was born. The old farts in power, who want to stay in power also belong to that generation, Millionaire Spin Doctors like Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and Rush Limbaugh (and new, incoherent ones like Donald Trump and now apparently Chuck Norris), are spewing hate like diarrhea.


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Thanks Cave Dweller!

I'm using a set of rules modified specifically for Fallout
by paintoholic
http://paintoholic.nl/temp/fallout_V7.doc

it´s actually rather sad that the promising peeps of the children of the revolution come from the same generation as the senile idiots of the puppet on a string regiment...

Honestly, I have a friend, back in Ohio, where I grew up. I think he honestly believes wholeheartedly that his right-wing-ness is going to get us back to some good-old-days not too different than this:



He is very intelligent, and capable of reasoning, but I'm not kidding you, he really believes in some mythical past that never really existed.
He believes Women should be at home, in the kitchen, he makes the money, and all the decisions, that is how God intended it to be in his mind.

He is very intelligent, and capable of reasoning

that is the main issue... how can he be all that above and then come up with fairy land ideas...??? how does that fit snuggly in one mind?

I don't know. I do not know.

 dsteingass wrote:
...that is how God intended it to be in his mind.

There it is, unfortunately intelligence often is of little use when (some kind of) religion comes into play.

Intellect is actually a set of very different brain + psyche functions and the most important of them are hardest to evaluate. The ability for critical or/and inductive thinking, for example, might lead to low scores at school. Happened to me actually, I barely made it out of school The amount of implicit knowledge one possess is also a bad criteria.
Facts tend to outdate faster than people can study and the only solution IMO is to learn to how to tie things up yourself which can never be done if you only study the linear version of deductive logic based on school math =/

Now we're getting into my field of expertise.
You're right, intelligence is a terribly wide term and it's not without reason that it's nowadays usually split into several more specific categories. My social intelligence for example is quite low, but I'm not exactly a dunce.
While explicit knowledge is the average Joe's often deceptive indicator for intelligence, I wouldn't say that implicit knowledge is an indicator for intelligence at all.
Oh and IQ tests are a great tool...to waste your time.
Being a teacher of languages and martial arts and studying applied linguistics, the effects of inductive/deductive learning (in English the more descriptive casual terms bottom-up and top-down are more common afaik) and their transformation into implicit/explicit knowledge is what I concern myself with on a daily basis.
You're right, to predispose to the inductive learning approach is not a valued talent in modern day's schoolsystems. Babies and small children are the only ones who rely on the inductive approach... oh well and scientists of course.
While it slightly depends on the type of information you're trying to learn, in the end a combination of both approaches will yield the best results, as it satisfies the average adult's mind's need for structure, rules and "fast" progress, with the deep understanding and quickly accessible knowledge, that takes time and lots of effort to obtain.
I could write books about the specific impact this has on learning martial arts, especially nowadays.

Most decisions in my work consist of simple logic strings like: it was working on monday, on tuesday it stopped working, so my course of action is to look at what happened between monday and tuesday that broke it, then go fix it. 20% technical, but 80% communication and documentation with other teams all around the world. Sometimes fixes that take ten minutes to execute can waste hours and days being implemented if things aren't clear and concise for people who do not speak English as their primary language. I'm a humble guy and all, but I'm really damn good at my job ... yet I cannot get a simple IF NOT THEN logical statement through to some of my family and friends. It is quite frustrating to me.




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p.s. Baiyuan, what do you think of this "literature" for sale tonight at the Mitt Romney campaign/book burning rally in my dear hometown of Defiance, Ohio?

blatantly racist enough?
Or can they go farther?

@ Baiyuan
That's what I was basically trying to say while being sleepy the combination of thinking is of course best I do believe that those approaches have a significant impact on shaping of personality, for deductive thinking pattern sometimes leads to an outer-determined or narrow minded personality, while inductive is not simply sensitive but teaches to make choices in situation with lack of information and deal with probabilities placing responsibility on your own shoulders rather than on some prerequisites that determine the outcome. That imo might be one of the reasons behind the issue that we are discussing here
And pal, you're a martial arts teacher? Now that's cool!

PS
On the right of joke - I find the Intellect scale of New Vegas character creator most entertaining and depictive
I tend to see hundreds of "vegetables" at work every day.

@Dave: That's at least a mighty good attempt, but I think they can do even better/worse...
Your hometown's name really is Defiance? Now that explains a lot...
Also being smart is worth nothing in so many situations. I'm good with words and dedicate my life to making people understand things, but a couple of weeks ago I had a 45min arguement with my fiánce about whether her boiled egg was "hard" or not.

@Storag: Currently it's just a few hours a week, the rest of the time I teach German or Chinese, or attend the duties of the oldest guy at university (not really but my graduation overdue). Teaching martial arts is what I intend to make a living of, once my studies are finished. (in 2099 or something)

Fort Defiance, a fontier fort on 3 rivers, designed and founded for the purpose of defending the river traffic and famous for killing or removing all the native inhabitants that lived here back in the day.

True pilgrims, huh? Makes me think of the brief history of the USA from "Bowling for Columbine".

I hope this is okay to ask here, but I have been following your thread for a while here and have started working on my own stuff. I'm about to try rivet making and was wondering if anyone has tried the method described in this blog post: http://privateerpress.com/hobby/hobby-blog/cryxian-bile-reservoir ? Seems simple and straight forward and maybe easier than cutting rod, but i'd like to know if anyone has experience with it. Thanks.