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2013/06/09 00:12:57
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
well they could do that, they could do a get a 3rd free, they could add on the already existing product as add ons, like weapon options like they do on heroes.
2013/06/09 00:32:04
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
From left to right: DFG Eisenkern trooper, RH, DFG Ada, RH, Space Marine, RH, Cadian. The two sisters on the right are about 1mm-2mm taller than they should be, due to the metal tab extending a bit above the base. Keep in mind that the DFG bases are slightly shorter, and the ladies are wearing high heels, which should make them a bit taller.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 02:17:19
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/06/09 02:36:23
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
Raging Heroes wrote:First of all, we needed to make sure we could make the necessary adjustments with our suppliers to be able to fulfill the pledges in the time frame we committed to if the KS continues on skyrocketing. We are currently finalizing work on this, and we are now reassured that this will not be a problem.
Second, it is obvious that if the TGG Kickstarter ends up going very high, we'll end up with no Stretch Goals to unlock and not enough to offer you. So we are now working very hard to take care of that, and our concept artist is currently drawing day and night non-stop in case of greater things happening.
Surely it would be better to get everything unlocked and have a big "Thanks for all your help!" post for the wait to the finish, than to risk not unlocking things for the sake of the game?
Kroothawk wrote: This chart just shows, that every kickstarter campaign gets most funds and new backers on the first and then the last few days ... and that this kickstarter is no exception. That's how kickstarter campaigns do in real life. Same with ebay auctions. Half the backers will see kickstarters on the "Soon ending" page, before they take action.
All Kickstarters have a drop-off, but some drop off faster than others. People perform the same sort of analysis of movie releases, and just as here a faster drop-off is indicative of problems, but the difference here is that it's not too late to fix the problems that are leading to lower pledges.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2013/06/09 03:57:11
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
Jimsolo wrote: Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money? I've asked before, and I still don't know: What is the perceived advantage, within the Kickstarter, of having the models made in plastic, as opposed to resin/metal?
Plastic is reliable, cheap and scales well for mass production. I will not pledge for a single Raging Heroes miniature if they don't, because I will not have an army in which to use them. I am not paying Goldsword prices for rank and file.
Mate, regardless of what you're buying in this genre, $3 per model is dirt cheap. The only exceptions are Historicals (different market), Mantic (uneven quality - and even then, often more expensive) and Reaper Bones. I guess you can also count plastics from GW starter boxes broken up on eBay, but that's not new retail product.
Instead of repeating the Goldsword mantra, please show me what else fits the bill of under $3 for R&F for 40k. I'm happy to be proved wrong here - I'm genuinely interested in seeing what else might be out there.
Curious question, is the conversation taking place here about typical for Kickstarter campaigns? I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type?
It seems to vary, often at random. You'll also notice a lot of the negative comments are coming from the same handful of people, and restate the same handful of points over and over again, never missing a chance to remind everyone how this latest development proves their pet theory about the nature of Kickstarter / RH's perceived arrogance / whatever right. Again, not that they're not entitled to be negative, but after a certain point, I do wonder why anyone wouldn't just simply abandon a KS they find so unsatisfactory, and move onto something they like more. Opinions have been expressed unambiguously, anyone you feel needs to be "warned" has been, your work here has been done.
Want my opinion? I'm sure you do.
If you're interested in discussing a new campaign, there's not much else to do regarding a campaign in the first few days besides speculate back and forth on it. In order for discussion to be interesting and meaningful, you need some points to be argued back and forth. Some people will naturally be critical, some will hate it, some will be angry, some will be happy, some elated. Some people will think the campaign managers can do nothing right, others will think they can do no wrong. Most will be somewhere in the middle. The resulting discussion is what we have here and in other open forums like this one.
I mean, it'd be a pretty boring discussion if everyone was disappearing up their own arses talking about how great in every way the (or any) campaign is, right?
And look at Buzzsaw's post - there's (as always) some great analysis in there.
@Ouze. I'm glad you started to see what I meant as you typed. My concern is that the gaming may well have backfired. I didn't follow this thread at all yesterday, and today I see that wait, we still haven't unlocked Bernadette, or even Katrina. While I'm sure that those ones will be unlocked, with the hefty stretches they changed to (even $10k per model is probably a bit high) they run the risk of people pulling out in the later stages. As I've said before and Buzzsaw also noted, a lot of people are already at their "pledge max", and there's not really a lot of reasons to add on more $15 heroes when you're only saving $3 per when it means going above your existing $250 or whatever pledge..
In fact, the "savings" on the $15 heroines ($3) when compared to the $10 heroines ($6.50) makes no sense at all. I'll get the KS-exclusive with my pledge, and I'm sure there'll be more than enough $10 heroines to fill my pledge. I can get the $15 ones later, at retail.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 04:14:24
Azazelx wrote: Instead of repeating the Goldsword mantra, please show me what else fits the bill of under $3 for R&F for 40k. I'm happy to be proved wrong here - I'm genuinely interested in seeing what else might be out there.
I'm not suggesting that they should all be plastic. Even one sprue per faction would provide the option for bulk at an affordable price for the likes of the Imperial Guard, where you don't want to pay $3 after discounts for a 5 point model.
You're making the assumption that RH would be dropping the price if they got to injection-moulded plastics. We know that doesn't always happen, unfortunately. And when it does, it's sometimes not really significant.
Dreamforge's box of 20 injection-moulded multipart Eisenkarn troopers, bought at a discount from Wayland (plus postage) or if you can find them for 10% off at another UK retailer with free shipping (and if you do, please tell me) come to about $2.57 each for R&F ($2.86 without discount). Comparing it to $3/model doesn't make a huge difference to me if I like or even prefer the aesthetic of the $3 models. And if you've got a line on great prices for Eisenkarn, again, let me know!
Azazelx wrote: Instead of repeating the Goldsword mantra, please show me what else fits the bill of under $3 for R&F for 40k. I'm happy to be proved wrong here - I'm genuinely interested in seeing what else might be out there.
Interesting, but we can't buy from the UK anymore, let alone from UK free shipping discount vendors. Best I can find is from a bitz vendor in the US via ebay doing deboxed, etc at $15/5 ...or $3/model (plus postage).
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Inquisitor Wappellious wrote: Here is an example of the "five mini box", which is the sample principle behind the KS troop units.
This is how they will get the 5 unique poses per box, and the weapon options. All of the options I needed for my wyches were there, which was helpful. Some of the extra weapons went to converting other figures as well. I don't know what the formulation is, but I never have to wash the resin parts. In fact, you can even paint right onto them without primer!
James is clearly just dropping a advertising post in here every few days without reading the comments, or indeed, even all of the information in RH's Kickstarter. The Models in this KS are not RH's usual resin. Their resin models retail for slightly more than their Metals.
Could one of the Heralds please ask RH to make explicitly clear what the materials in this KS are? By all accounts, the materials on the table are metal and a form of restic, as seen used by Mantic, PP, Sedition Wars, etc. Metals for heroes and restic for the troops/support. Could you please get this confirmed or clarified, and then let James Wappell know the actual materials being used so he stops talking about RH's resin?
*All the resin talk would be fine if this was the regular RH thread, and it was advertising for their normal models from their website - though the resins are usually more limited than the metals.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/09 04:55:00
Azazelx wrote: Instead of repeating the Goldsword mantra, please show me what else fits the bill of under $3 for R&F for 40k. I'm happy to be proved wrong here - I'm genuinely interested in seeing what else might be out there.
Eh, at this point, even I have to admit that these models are showing their age. And I have over 100+ of them. The sprues are poorly laid out and starting to slip (more mold lines to clean), the designs are closing in on 10+ years old (really, nothing fancy at all about the basic Cadian models, they really thrive off conversions), and honestly, the design aspect and inspiration of the models themselves are really.....lame (when compared to DKoK from Forge World, Valhallans or Steel Legion in their trench coats, or any other IG regiment that's not meant to be the poster child, blank canvas, ready for Joe Wargamer's take on their own version of any number of Imperial Guard regiments). I love the idea of the Imperial Guard, and GW's first plastic IG Catachan stuff was really cool for the time (what was it, early 2000's, maybe even late 1990's?), but I feel really disappointed when I can compare the quality of the new Dark Eldar sprues (which are amazing, really) to the (by comparison) ancient Cadian sprues, and then realize that GW's asking near the same price for models that are more than 10 years old without even a single sprue re-cut. In that vein, I'm more than happy to pay for some new vision for the grunt, front-line soldier (albeit female, but I'm not complaining) of the far future.
I'm still convinced that the idea of 40k as a game is being approached in the wrong scale (seriously, imagine a huge Apocalypse scale battle in 15mm, with 100+ infantry and a dozen or more tanks and war machines per side, while still maintaining some tactical flexibility in the rules besides "first turn wins". Really, I think GW missed their calling card with Epic and Warmaster, as both rules systems are head and shoulders above their parent systems).
I'm holding out for more Iron Empire and Jailbirds render previews, and look forward to seeing this campaign evolve. RH seems to be adapting quickly, and hopefully this project will be a success one month from now.
~iPaint
iPaint's Workbench - a blog for all of my painting endeavors
Currently painting: 20mm WW2, 28mm Zombicide
In the pipeline: 28mm Reaper Bones, Dwarven Forge Game Tiles
2013/06/09 04:59:55
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
Azazelx wrote: Instead of repeating the Goldsword mantra, please show me what else fits the bill of under $3 for R&F for 40k. I'm happy to be proved wrong here - I'm genuinely interested in seeing what else might be out there.
Update 6 and they finally show a 3d sculpt of the basic troop types for one faction.
If the goal of this Kickstarter is to sell armies and not just heroines, shouldn't the basic troop types have been a day 1 priority?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 05:28:59
There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.
2013/06/09 05:25:03
Subject: Re:Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
Frontpage could be linked to the first but needs special mention, its too widespread and somebody needs to dig to find something.
Pledge levels should be up front easy to find a "sweet spot" advertised on top and a visual representation on what you are getting, this is were the flexibility of the project is a hindrance, the silhouetted figures are not appealing a collection of artwork might work better, but may be a bit misleading, not sure how to handle this, current streachgoal needs to be prominent past streachgoals need to go ASAP what has been unlocked needs a nice redesign to incorporate freebies, while I am at this the pledges need to include the freebies applied to the pledge too, Ash is been unlocked she must be on the pledges!
Streachgoals
Streachgoals need to make sense and look coherent, if a streachgoal raises more than one eyebrow one way or the other it is mispriced, likewise the fact that 3 different factions are represented, creates disinterest to some when their chosen faction(s) is not represented and while we have seen mantic do that with deadzone, most streachgoals were for all factions either adding to them or been mercenaries, I think RH could make streachgoals that give something to all factions, either unlocking 3 models one for each faction, or unlocking a model for a faction and unlocking something for the other two, for example "Irina Vega for Kurganova, alternative weapon for jailbirds and Iron empire support 1".
Perceived Price
Finally we reach to a bugbear for the majority of backers in a kickstarter the appeal is to get a sweat deal, a better deal than getting from retail, there are the idealists who will back a project because they want it to succeed, but that's the minority, the majority will be attracted because they want a good deal, how to do this in such a freeform project is a bit odd, adding stuff is the way of course, but how and were, adding an extra trooper to each squad works, but is not of any interest to backers only wanting heroes, adding an extra hero needs consideration, maybe for each 2 an extra? don't know, additional parts for heroes may work but will only attract people interested on these heroes. this needs a bit of brainstorming.
Finally comes the part on how to persuade people to pledge more, models alone may do it, but how do you persuade the backer to pledge extra from what they originally expected, I am thinking bundled deals but need some though.
Anyway these are my thoughts.
Excellent post with excellent points.
Something that might be done (if the renders are, as they say, done) would be to show the concept artwork for upcoming stretch goals, and then when the goals are achieved, also show the renders overlaid on the concept art. The point on multi-faction stretch goals is also an extremely solid one.
For perceived price/value, I guess they could go with something like "When we hit $400k, for every full $100 you've pledged, you get an additional $5 worth of models!" That could also have the knock-on effect of making people add onto their pledge totals so as to get to the next "level". Not sure if they can afford to do something like this or not, and the other question would be as to whether an extra 5% is enough to motivate people to increase their pledges. It would certainly make people close to it think about bumping their pledges to the next hundred though...
Azazelx wrote: Instead of repeating the Goldsword mantra, please show me what else fits the bill of under $3 for R&F for 40k. I'm happy to be proved wrong here - I'm genuinely interested in seeing what else might be out there.
Azazel asked about the price of rank and file for 40k, not the aesthetic direction. But if you want to move the goalposts, fine: the Dark Eldar infantry are the same price.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2013/06/09 05:32:21
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
Azazelx wrote: Instead of repeating the Goldsword mantra, please show me what else fits the bill of under $3 for R&F for 40k. I'm happy to be proved wrong here - I'm genuinely interested in seeing what else might be out there.
I agree. And would take issue with the somewhat false point of Cadians @ 2$ per. The msrp on the 10 man box is what...33$? That's over 3 per model. For extremely dated sprues.
Its unfair to compare a discounted price verses a full retail price.
There is a word for a wargamer with an empty paint bench.
HisDivineShadow wrote: Its unfair to compare a discounted price verses a full retail price.
You are the one comparing discounts to full retail price, not me. The recommended retail price for the Cadian Shock Troops (or Dark Eldar Warriors) is 18 pounds for 10, or a bit under $28. The recommended retail price for the lowest Raging Heroes price band is $20 for 5.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 05:39:36
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2013/06/09 05:40:24
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
Azazelx wrote: Instead of repeating the Goldsword mantra, please show me what else fits the bill of under $3 for R&F for 40k. I'm happy to be proved wrong here - I'm genuinely interested in seeing what else might be out there.
Azazel asked about the price of rank and file for 40k, not the aesthetic direction. But if you want to move the goalposts, fine: the Dark Eldar infantry are the same price.
That I did - it's what Alex was answering with that post. Though outside the UK at discount those are basically $3 each anyway..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 05:42:17
HisDivineShadow wrote: Its unfair to compare a discounted price verses a full retail price.
You are the one comparing discounts to full retail price, not me. The recommended retail price for the Cadian Shock Troops (or Dark Eldar Warriors) is 18 pounds for 10, or a bit under $28. The recommended retail price for the lowest Raging Heroes price band is $20 for 5.
Actually, technically speaking I made no comparisons at all.
There is a word for a wargamer with an empty paint bench.
AlexHolker wrote: All Kickstarters have a drop-off, but some drop off faster than others.
Hardcore Raging Heroes fans knew well ahead what was coming. RH even made a massive "Like us on Facebook" campaign with rewards to make sure, every fan knows about this kickstarter within hours of the start. So more "early pledgers" were reached than usual, explaining the high start and then sharp drop-off quite logically. Still doesn't change the fact, that in almost all kickstarter campaigns, the bulk of pledges is made in the last few days, when normal people see this on the "soon ending" page or cautious people wait for the whole package before pledging.
Is it too late to suggest they relaunch as a three faction skirmish game, like Deadzone without the terrain? Then have pledge levels above for those who want armies.
There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.
2013/06/09 09:36:12
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
I think comparing discounts is nitpicking on data, either go for MSRP or go for the same discounts.
In any case 3.6$ per model for a highly detailed resin cast is a nice price, compared to 2,9$ for GW cadians is not a huge difference and in my opinion compares different things, would I love to loose detail, poses, have undercuts for a mere 0.50$ savings, no I would not to be frank.
2013/06/09 09:43:40
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
Again. Not resin (as we usually consider it). Restic. How well it holds the detail compared to metal etc is yet to be determined, as some are better at casting restic than others. Even so, at $3/figure in this KS, I think they're excellent value for the money.
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Joyboozer wrote: Is it too late to suggest they relaunch as a three faction skirmish game, like Deadzone without the terrain? Then have pledge levels above for those who want armies.
There's at least 325,000 reasons not to relaunch the campaign. Not to mention the fact that they know where their figures are being used, and the writing, development, playtest and translation of a ruleset is a considerable and lengthy task, both in terms of time and of effort. Even if they hire proven people like Priestly and Calvatore to write the rules (which isn't a bad idea by any means) it's still a ton of time and money.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 09:46:40
I am not sure if 5% is enough, a major obstacle I have encountered in kickstarters is manage to beat peoples waiting for the thing to go on retailers to get it discounted, yes kickstarter is about making the project happen, but many people think the project will happen regardless.
2013/06/09 10:27:38
Subject: Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
Joyboozer wrote: Is it too late to suggest they relaunch as a three faction skirmish game, like Deadzone without the terrain? Then have pledge levels above for those who want armies.
There's at least 325,000 reasons not to relaunch the campaign. Not to mention the fact that they know where their figures are being used, and the writing, development, playtest and translation of a ruleset is a considerable and lengthy task, both in terms of time and of effort. Even if they hire proven people like Priestly and Calvatore to write the rules (which isn't a bad idea by any means) it's still a ton of time and money.
Agreed!
No reason to do that now, but plenty of reasons to do some reconfiguring:
We've got an update that seems to indicate that they're aware of some of the fundamental issues here though, so there's every reason to believe that they'll do something to get this one moving along again.
2013/06/09 10:42:12
Subject: Re:Raging Heroes [official] - Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter is live!
I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type? 
Ultimately, I think I like it.
